Template talk:Forms of government

Esoteric concepts

Am I the only one who thinks that the template should be reduced in size? There are some really esoteric concepts that do not really exist in modern practical politics. I am not suggesting that the idea of Kritarchy is useless, but it is not in existence as a "Form of Government" compared to a monarchy, dictatorship, republic, etc.

Let's keep in mind that a government's form is different from its qualities. Many of the items on the template refer to qualities inherent in basic forms of government. It seems the dividing line is this: There is a difference between forms of government in practice and qualities of government in theory/philosophy. As an overview of basic and practical concepts, I believe that the template should provide navigation to functional systems of government, and the theoretical concepts should be removed. If we can't gain a concensus to reduce the template based on the broader concepts of government, then I suggest that we make a seperate navigational template for theoretical/philosophical forms of government. For example, Minarchism really is a philosophical concept that does not describe a functioning structural form of government.

None of this is meant to disparage anyone's favorite governmental philosophy. We can all agree that nav templates cannot always contain every single topic-- they must touch on the "biggies." Additionally, I think the concept of this template has been lost by veering into the theoretical. That Robocracy is listed is a case in point. Anyway, the template has a direct link to a List of forms of government

I propose the following for the template as concrete, functional systems of government: concepts that describe a power structure and the application of that structure to citizens:

Complete list of forms of government

• Aristocracy
• Autocracy
• Communist state
• Democracy

Direct democracy

Representative democracy

• Dictatorship
• Monarchy

Absolute monarchy

Constitutional monarchy

• Republic

Constitutional republic

Parliamentary republic

• Single-party state

Before I go through each concept on the template one by one, I wanted to get everyone's thoughts before I reduce the template. Thanks, --Lmbstl (talk) 18:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Lmbstl, you may want to read the talk section on Anarchism and the Anarchism talk page, if you have not already. Cheers,Doright (talk) 04:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello Doright, I just looked over the page you suggested. What are your thoughts in relation to my above suggestions? --Lmbstl (talk) 05:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

It looks like you are giving it more thought than me. However, as you can see from the above, there has been an extended conversation regarding the inclusion of Anarchism. I noticed you left it out. You may want to review the reason that have been identified for including it. I find them persuasive. Regards, Doright (talk) 07:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The conversation you refer to has an entirely different premise. The premise here is this: there is a difference between forms of government in practice and qualities of government in theory/philosophy. I just don't see where anarchism exists as a part of a social consensus in governing a world country. Additionally, the first item listed on the template as I have suggested is "List of forms of government," where all philosophical forms of government are available. All of the concepts are valuable, although I think we can all agree that the template should not be an exhaustive list. Therefore, I think it is reasonable to discuss which qualities make an item fit for inclusion into the template, instead of assuming that all items should be included. The criterion used for the items suggested above are functioning governmental systems that are in practice. --Lmbstl (talk) 19:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at the conversation. For clarification, can you state its premise? Thanks, Doright (talk) 01:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The direct link to the anarchism debate you referenced is here on the anarchism talk page and here for the discussion on this page. I would prefer not to address that debate in this section, in order that this section can remain focused on scope of the Forms of Government template. As I mentioned, I think it is productive to discuss which qualities make an item fit for inclusion into the template. Thanks, --Lmbstl (talk) 04:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I think templates need to be as broad and inclusive as possible. Hiding "esoteric" concepts will ensure that they remain esoteric, and I find that counter to the spirit of the wiki. The overarching purpose of Wikipedia is to make knowledge more easily accessible to more people. We should not try to steer the readers toward what we presume they most want to read about. Instead, we should put the obscure alongside the mundane and let readers choose their own path. The only good rationale I see for shortening the list is that it may take up too much space on the page. So just make a collapsible template. Aelffin (talk) 11:48, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello Aelffin, Let me be clear: I do not suggest hiding anything. As you can see above, the very first item on the suggested template is "Complete list of forms of government," where all philosophical forms of government are equally available. I am concerned that you did not read this whole section.

Additionally, the nav template has expanded in size because people found the concepts and added them, so I disagree with your assertion that readers need a template to access the articles. I am sure we can agree it is possible that too large a template can make accessing concepts cumbersome. In invoking "spirit of the wiki," you overlook that this whole system is one of organizing and presenting information to readers in a way that furthers dissemination, accessibilty, and understanding of the information.

The article List of forms of government exists for a reason-- to provide readers with a complete list of forms of government, real and philosophical, as they exist on Wikipedia. It is the first item on the template. By your rationale, every item in the List of forms of government article should be listed on a collapsible template. How does that make things easier for a reader? I simply don't see how this would benefit anyone, nor how it furthers the spirit of Wikipedia, particularly when related information is already separated into entire category and subcategory designations in a uniform system available to all users (where "the obscure" rests "alongside the mundane," as you advocate).

Either we assume all items should be listed on the template, or we agree that some items should be left out. I think it would be hard to gain a consensus that all items in the forms of government article should be listed on a template. That means some articles will be listed on the template, and some will not. A systemic issue here is categorizing forms of government in practice and qualities of government in theory/philosophy. For the purposes of this template, I have suggested reducing the scope of the template and discussing which qualities make an item fit for inclusion into the template-- in order to accomplish what I mention above-- organizing and presenting information to readers in a way that furthers its dissemination, accessibility, and understanding. I have suggested including items that are functioning governmental systems in current practice. Thanks, --Lmbstl (talk) 16:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I did read your whole comment, but I think that relegating the less-than-well-known forms of government to the list page, even if the list page is the first thing on the template, constitutes "hiding" them, in practice. I understand that getting consensus on this position may be difficult. Nonetheless, it is the position I advocate, and I think it would be at least as difficult to get consensus on each item indivicually, as your position would require. The aformementioned anarchism debate illustrates this point. Basically, I think the problem is that your system of categorizing systems according to theoretical versus extant forms of government constitutes original research. Does direct democracy exist in fact? Has a communist state ever existed? By whose definition of communism? Is aristocracy form of government or a social system? ...you see my point. Our disagreement seems to be mainly on the function of a template. You seem to see it as a roadmap for efficiently guiding people to the article of their selection. I see it as a tool for showing readers the range of options they have vis a vis a particular subject. If we limit the template to well known forms of government, then arguably useful concepts like "Kritarchy" will never become common knowledge because the readers will never think to look for them. Aelffin (talk) 18:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's think about this carefully. "I think that relegating the less-than-well-known forms of government to the list page, even if the list page is the first thing on the template, constitutes "hiding" them, in practice." The concepts listed in the forms of government article are "relegated"? I disagree. And, by your rationale, anything not on a nav template is as good as hidden. We all know that is not true.

"If we limit the template to well known forms of government, then arguably useful concepts like "Kritarchy" will never become common knowledge because the readers will never think to look for them." Do you really believe this? I do not assume readers to be so ignorant, nor do I assume that a template is the only way of accessing information, as I have already addressed above.

Second, our disagreement about the function of a template is true only in this case. There are many nav templates that can reasonably contain all relevant topics within a certain sphere, and I thoroughly advocate that they function that way. This is not such a case. In this case, it is not reasonable to have the contents of the Forms of government page listed on a nav template, which you advocate. Therefore, some concepts will be listed, others will not. By what criteria are concepts listed now? No one seems to know.

Additionally, it isn't just "theoretical vs. extant." Attempting to categorize these concepts unavoidably engages theory. (I do think a new nav template for theory is in order, though). The argument is not as complicated as you make it out to be-- many of the items currently listed are qualities, not forms. I certainly would be open to including anarchy in the template since it is quite relevant to governmental systems, antithetical or not. However, anarchism is a quality. Minarchism is a quality, and does not describe an integrated system. A communist state describes an integrated system, despite whether or not its quality of communism truly exists. In this case, the template actually serves to label qualities as governmental systems, which I find problematic because it can genuinely be misleading.

Finally, I do not suggest "getting consensus on each item individually," nor did I ever ask specifically about anarchism. Determining criteria for inclusion into the template removes the burden of individual debate. No one has has wanted to discuss defining this criteria so far, which is what I am asking to do. I have made the introductory suggestion that we reduce the scope of the template, using the criterion of functioning governmental systems that are in practice. If you do not prefer that criterion, then let us work together to define criteria and gain a consensus. Thanks, --Lmbstl (talk) 03:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Some quick comments . . . Regarding hidden vs not hidden, surely it's not a categorical question, but rather one of degree. I'm not sure yet where I fall on the implications of the qualities versus forms discussion. I do agree with Lmbstl when he/she writes, I certainly would be open to including anarchy in the template since it is quite relevant to governmental systems, antithetical or not. Regards, Doright (talk) 01:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the main aspect of the proposal; the list in the box should be greatly reduced. "Hiding" should not be an issue as the box is a navigational aid, not a complete list.

However, I think the criteria for inclusion should be "commonly DISCUSSED concepts that describe a power structure and the application of that structure to citizens" (rather than commonly USED), and therefore anarchy should be included. Bayle Shanks (talk) 16:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Here are my picks:

• Anarchism
• Aristocracy
• Authoritarianism
• Autocracy
• Communist state
• Corporatocracy
• Demarchy
• Democracy

Direct democracy

Representative democracy

• Despotism
• Dictatorship

Military dictatorship

• Feudalism
• Kritocracy
• Meritocracy
• Minarchism
• Monarchy

Absolute monarchy

Constitutional monarchy

• Oligarchy
• Plutocracy
• Republic

Mixed government

Constitutional republic

Parliamentary republic

• Socialism
• Theocracy
• Timocracy
• Totalitarianism
• Tribe

Chiefdom —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bayle Shanks (talk • contribs) 16:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Here are some justifications for my including/excluding items from that list:

• Anarchism +: often discussed
• Aristocracy +: often discussed
• Authoritarianism +: often discussed
• Autocracy +: often discussed
• Communist state +: often discussed
• Corporatocracy -: a description of who is in power, not a description of a power structure
• Demarchy +: of historical importance
• Democracy +: often discussed

Direct democracy +: often discussed

Representative democracy +: often discussed

• Despotism +: often discussed
• Dictatorship +: often discussed

Military dictatorship +: often discussed

• Feudalism +: often discussed
• Kritocracy +: of historical importance
• Meritocracy -: a description of who is in power, not a description of a power structure
• Minarchism
• Monarchy +: often discussed

Absolute monarchy +: often discussed

Constitutional monarchy +: often discussed

• Night watchman state -: redundant with Minarchism
• Noocracy -: not often discussed
• Ochlocracy -: merely the "bad form" of democracy
• Oligarchy -: merely the "bad form" of aristocracy
• Omniarchy -: not often discussed
• Plutocracy -: a description of who is in power, not a description of a power structure
• Republic +: often discussed

Mixed government

Constitutional republic +: often discussed

Parliamentary republic +: often discussed

Socialist republic -: redundant; both this and the "communist state" define as Marxist

Capitalist republic -: may as well just have "republic" and separate the "capitalist" as an "economic system"

• Socialism +: often discussed
• Sociocracy -: not often discussed
• Stratocracy -: not often discussed
• Technocracy -: a description of who is in power, not a description of a power structure
• Theocracy +: often discussed
• Theodemocracy -: not often discussed
• Timocracy +: important historically
• Totalitarianism +: often discussed
• Tribe +: often discussed

Chiefdom

Bayle Shanks (talk) 16:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't completely agree with the idea that the size of this template should be reduced too much. First, we must make consensus on the usage of this template. I think this template is made to list types or forms of government and to make it clear that how to assort a government of a country into different types. If a government is dominated by men, it can thus be assorted as an androcracy, so do the others. Then, we can decide whether those esoteric concepts should remain or not. If this template is just made to list those obviously formal forms of government, it will also be very necessary to make a new list to include those esoteric ones. I firmly think that Wikipedia should also have the function to inspire or arouse something new in the readers' mind. At least, they should be provided with the chance to meet those esoteric ones rather than the stereotypes. If the criteria are too strict on this, something important may also be eliminated,too.

User:Aronlee90

There's no perfect solution.

When mostly alphabetically arranged, it serves mainly to remind readers of what they already know; as it gets longer, people will look at what they expect to find and skip the rest, and I think it's already too long in terms of popular usability. Plus, if a reader already knows what a form of government is called, there's a good chance they'll type it into the search box or into the URL, although the present system helps with spelling. And the lack of word wrap, at least for spaceless strings, is beginning to create a problem, as the template gets wider and bumps main text down.

As an alternative, but at a trade-off of proposing more work than keeping the status quo, consider what's done for the feminism sidebar ({{Feminism sidebar}}), which has many subtopics with their own articles:

• Lists and an index have been created and are linked to from the bottom of the template. This is so not every article has to be in the template. (A list is linked to in this template, too, but I managed to miss it and thought it wasn't there, since it reads like a partly redundant heading for the template, and it apparently doesn't try to be nearly complete.) The lists and index have to be maintained, too. While categories are automatically populated, lists and indexes have to be maintained manually. An index is much like a list. Both (unlike categories) can be annotated. Both are begun much the way any new article is begun.
• The template groups links, with a heading for each group. I'm not sure how to group forms of government, unless political scientists have a standard classification scheme already, and even so this may be too hard or too nonintuitive to implement. The existing list has a scheme but it seems incomplete.
• Where there are groups of links, the groups may be presented as collapsed, so users can open just the groups they want to see. Grouping would also allow adding links for, say, articles about theorists who write about classifications, multiform overview articles, and so on. The template may be presented in an article uncollapsed, collapsed, or, I think, with a different status for each group.

Another solution is to lay the template out horizontally, rather than vertically, and place it at the bottom of a page, and that might save room for more links, but that requires moving the template on all the articles that use it, which is quite a number.

Nick Levinson (talk) 18:19, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

For valid links, to achieve further selectivity, notability is hard to exceed. I'm not clear how to define an objective supernotability standard. Maintaining a comprehensive list or index gives us an excuse to be subjective for supernotability for explicit inclusion in the template.

Redlinks shouldn't last long, if present at all. At first, they encourage writing articles. After a while, they may represent nonnotability or other cause for article deletion. Stubs are a workable interim solution.

Nick Levinson (talk) 19:00, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Matriarchy

I propose adding matriarchy. There are reports of matriarchies existing over thousands of years; not all are verified, but the subject figures prominently in thealogy and in 1960s–1980s U.S. discourse, especially among women, and is discussed in anthropology, history, popular culture, and animal studies. I'll be glad to add it if there's no objection. Thanks. Nick Levinson (talk) 01:48, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. Nick Levinson (talk) 15:37, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Bureaucracy

Since when is bureaucracy a form of government? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.231.12.81 (talk) 11:47, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I can't see that it is. Not everything that ends in cracy belongs in this template. Removed. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 13:53, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Readding Communist State

We have whole Wikipedia articles dedicated to that. I will be adding it shortly. Also, if they don't exist, then what do you call them? --43?9enter ^☭msg_☭contribs 07:16, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Matching Template Changes with Corresponding Articles

I have a question/concern about when changes are made to the list. When new forms are added to the list, we should try to make sure that the corresponding article gets this template placed in it. Conversly, when a link is removed from this template, we should remove the template from that article, correct? For example, I added the template to Nanny state, which has since been removed from the list, but the template remains on the Nanny state page. Not questioning the removal of nanny state from the list, just want to make sure the template matches the articles and vice versa. --Robthepiper (talk) 22:37, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree on the former but disagree on the latter. It turns out that the number of notable forms of government (and forms subsumed under others that are notable) is too large for a template that has to fit within an article, so we have to be even more selective than we would be if we applied merely the standard of notability (adjusted for the subsumed), which determines whether a form of government can have its own article. An article on a form of government should link to other forms of government, and the template supports that. So, if an article is about a form of government that does not qualify for the template, we should still have the template in that article, for the sake of readers and researchers. At the same time, if we add a form of government into the template, we could reasonably assume that it must be at least a notable form of government or subsumed within one, so there should certainly be an article covering that form of government, either at that moment or soon thereafter, either under the same name or by a pipe or redirect. Nick Levinson (talk) 01:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Nick. What you've said makes sense. What I was torn between is whether we should have a one-to-one relationship between the template and the article or a one-to-many relationship. I can see pros and cons with both approaches, but I don't feel strongly either way. You seem to be for the latter, which sounds fine, as long as it's applied relatively consistenly. In terms of the length of the list, that's a discussion I'm staying out of for now because I don't have any good insights as to how to solve it. --Robthepiper (talk) 21:39, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Theodemocracy

We should mention it because we also mention the theoretical, and barely known about, Demarchy. So, we should including Theodemocracy. --SomeDudeWithAUserName (talk with me!) 05:10, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The list is WAY too long. It takes up too much space in articles. Shoud be shortened and simplified

The list shown is way too long. It takes up multiple pages in length. It needs to be shortened to common forms of government.--R-41 (talk) 22:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Observations

I just stumbled across this and there are many changes I would make. Remove either Patriarchy or Androcracy, they are both the same thing (male rulers) although Patriarchy is a better page Androcracy is the actual term for the rule of government (although matriarchy is used instead of Gynocracy). So either merge Androcracy into Patriarchy then remove Androcracy from the list or just remove one of them. Corporatism isn't a type of government. (The) Garrison state appears to actually be a book so shouldn't really be in this template. Green state is a type of democracy so should be a subsection of tha tpage. Kakistocracy doesn't have an entry, but it is locked. Confusing! Kratocracy isn't actually a type of government, it as a way of staging a coup. Kyriarchy, not sure what this is but it is not a type of government. Mediocracy is not a type of government. The page Nomocracy is crap, it seems to be some sort of term for an Islamic theocracy. Or is it an Autocracy? I'm not sure but it clearly isn't a type of government it is a sub-type of one of those other types. Noocracy is a self described 'Aristocracy' so should be merged. Panarchism is a subsection of Anarchism and not itself a type of government. Pantisocracy appears to be a type of Communism. Plantocracy is just a type of Plutocracy although that itself seems to be a type of Oligarchy. Sociocracy appears to be a type of Democracy. Squirearchy is not a type of government. Police state is not a type of government but is a type of Totalitarianism. Sultanism is a type of Monarchy. Superpower is not a type of government. Synarchism is not its own type of government. Finally, Welfare state is not a type of government. I do not know why all these redundant terms are in here. But this template is severly bloated and should probably be, at least, halved. I thought it best to come here first, as maybe there is some reason for having these excess terms here, and I didn't want to be rude by making vast changes to this template when I had not contributed to it before. Thanks. Adam4267 (talk) 18:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with your proposal. The list is way too long and needs to be simplified to basic common forms of government - specific variants and minor types unnecessarily fill up the list and make it confusing. I would add that the term corporatocracy is under POV dispute for a long time, plus it is a form of plutocracy which itself is a form of oligarchy at least as defined by Aristotle. I will put through your changes. I legitimize these changes with the basis that historical political theorists, including Aristotle have narrowed down the forms of government to a small list.--R-41 (talk) 15:58, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Classification of governments

Everybody seems to be dissatisfied with the current list, so Here's an idea, tell me what you think. Let's classify governments according to three properties: Power Structure, Power source, and legal system.

Power Structure

• Unitary
• Federal
• Confederal

Power Source

• Aristocratic
  • Popular
  • Constitutional
• Democratic
  • Direct
  • Representative
• Theocratic
  • Canonical
  • Ecclesiastical

Legal System

• Republican
  • Parliamentary
  • Presidential
• Authoritarian

These categories are broad and may define governments, past present and future, without regard to who is in power. It is simply a framework. For example, you could have a government that is structurally unitary or federal or confederal, it's power is justified by virtue of the people in charge (aristocracy (if written limitations, constitutional, otherwise popular) or it could be a democracy, direct or indirect. It's legal system could be republican or authoritarian, that is are the laws made up by the authorities at whim or are they written down and applied predictably? If they are objective/fairly enforced, then are the law enforcers selected by the people or the law makers? if people, presidential, if enforcers are selected by law makers, parliamentary. What do you guys think? Rustyfence (talk) 10:30, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I just want to add, the reason why I made this change: Before, it was just a long, unorganized and frankly confusing list that ignored the relationships between the different forms of government. What I tried to do with my version is create different categories so that the reader knows what is a subset of what, and also is able to tell that multiple terms are needed to describing each state. Hopefully any objections people may have can be answered without going back to having a confusing list.Rustyfence (talk) 11:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC)