Template talk:Hispanic and Latino Americans navbox
|WikiProject United States||(Rated Template-class)|
|WikiProject Latinos||(Rated Template-class)|
Haitians are Latinos
Haiti is the first independent Latin American country. Haitians speak a French dialect. French is a Latin based language just as Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, and Romanian are. Spanish speaking Latinos are no more Latino than Latin Americans that speak French or Portuguese! Latino is a word that is greatly misused and misunderstood. People think Latino is equal to short, dark, and brown, in other words, neither Black nor White! However, the Ancient Latins were definitely a White people who were neither short, nor dark, nor brown!
Modern day Latinos define a wide group of varying peoples that speak Latin based languages. Millions of Latinos are White, millions of Latinos are Black, and millions of Latinos are Brown (i.e. Mulatto or Mixed). In all honesty, if Latin or Latino was used in its most truthful manner, it would refer to Whites only, since the Ancient Latins were a White tribe, and since 99.99 percent of Spaniards, Portuguese, French, Italians, and Romanians are also indeed White! Furthermore, it would only be a term to use for those people today who are predominantly or 100 percent Latin blood in origin, but I seriously doubt any exists today, even in Italy, where they came to power! All other Latinos are merely Latinized peoples thus, not true Latinos! But, for simplicity's sake, I'll use Latino in its loose sense.
Another point that needs to be established is that Hispanic is not synonymous with Latino. Hispanics refer to only Spanish speaking Latinos. This brings me to another point. Spanish speaking Latinos are the only group of Latinos that are given official status as a group, Hispanic! Those that speak Portuguese aren't givin their own distinct label, nor are those that speak French! Seems a bit discriminatory doesn't it! Even Hispanic is a vastly misused and misunderstood term. Hispanic technically means Spanish and the vast majority of Spaniards, some 99.99 percent are White! Hispanic derives from Hispania, the Roman name for Spain. As the Spanish dialects diverged, it soon became Espana.
Another point of importance is that the term Latin America was coined by the French in reference to their own colonies in the Americas! Thus, French/Spanish speaking Cajuns and French speaking Canadians can rightfully be called Latinos!
- Just because the etymological origins of the word "Latino" come from the word Latin, it does not necessarily follow that this word refers to all persons who speak a Latin-based language. "Latino" derives from the Spanish and Portuguese words "latinoamericano" and refers to persons from the Spanish and Portuguese countries of Central and South America and the Caribbean. The meaning of the English-language word "Latino" is not commonly understood to include French speakers and it is not commonly understood to include Haitians, and most sources that define the word define it to include only Spanish and Portuguese speakers from the Americas. Please read this Wikipedia article for further sources and information: Hispanic and Latino Americans.Goodsdrew (talk) 14:51, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
- Latino = Latin American!!! It's just a shorter term and quicker to say in speaking. Latino and Latin AMerican both hearken back to Latin. The Latins were a people (White people incidentally) that spoke the Latin language. Today's Latino (Latin American) probably has only a smidgin of Latin blood in his veins. However, the language is more precise. Latinos (Latin Americans) speak not only Spanish, but also French and Portuguese! YES! FRENCH AND PORTUGUESE!!! Today's Latino (Latin American) to employ the term at it's loesest meaning, is not exclusive to Whites from Latin America, but also Blacks, and Mulattos (i.e. Browns)- basically anybody that speaks a Latin-based language! Hispanic refers to only Spanish-speaking Latinos. Why they have their own special category is way beyond me. Kind of haughty and high minded I think!
- Like I said before, just because the phrase has the word "Latin" in it does not mean that it HAS to include all latin-derived languages. Meanings of words change in different contexts. You have provided no source to justify your reasoning. Please read what I wrote above and then read Hispanic and Latino Americans and read the cited sources, then we can talk. The vast majority of sources and dictionaries define Latin American in terms of the Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries of the Americas.Goodsdrew (talk) 22:06, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Haiti was the First country in Latin America- but yet you say they aren't Latin? If you're Haitian you're either Afro-Latin/Mixed Latin/etc. People dont understand what Latin is!!! Latinos are people that are of Latin American culture, born in a Latin-American country, and speak a latin- based Language like French,Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc . Haiti was the very first in Latin- America , which is the reason why Haitians are proud to be Haitian ! I dont think you know anything about the history of Haiti- which is probably why you dont want to EXCEPT the Facts !!!!!!!!!! Look at Brazil, do they speak Spanish? NO!!!!!!!!!! However they are Latin just like Haitians are!!!!!! Even the Haitian ""GOVERNMENT" " decided to allow Haiti to be apart of the Latin-American society- because it was the First Latin- country!!!!! But I can see I might not get any where with you because you are in "" DENIAL "" OF TRUE HAITIAN HISTORY !!!!!!!!!! --CoCoLumps (Love yourself) 09:04, 09 May 2013 (UTC)
- Citation? I've given you places to look that clearly explain what the English language term "Latin America" means. It doesn't include Haiti. The vast majority of academic sources don't include Haiti. U.S. Government definitions do not include Haiti. Until you can point to something that indicate the majority of sources agree with your position, every source in this discussion that has been cited (such as the sources at Hispanic and Latino Americans) contradicts your argument. Your argument carries no weight without citation to authority that shows your view is the majority view. Here are a few sources:
- "Latin America". The New Oxford Dictionary of English. Pearsall, J., ed. 2001. Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press; p. 1040: "The parts of the American continent where Spanish or Portuguese is the main national language (i.e. Mexico and, in effect, the whole of Central and South America including many of the Caribbean islands)."
- : "Haiti is an anomalous country. Geographically, it is in the Caribbean, and by extension, the Western Hemisphere. But it is not part of Latin America, much less Anglo-Saxon America."
-  "Haitians, who are identified as black Caribbean immigrants and not Latinos . . ."Goodsdrew (talk) 15:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
- Humes, Karen R.; Jones, Nicholas A.; Ramirez, Roberto R. "Overview of Race and Hispanic Origin: 2010" (PDF). U.S. Census Bureau. Retrieved 2011-03-28. ""Hispanic or Latino" refers to a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish or Portuguese culture or origin regardless of race."
- "American FactFinder Help: Hispanic or Latino origin". United States Census Bureau. Retrieved 2008-10-05. "For Census 2000, American Community Survey: People who identify with the terms "Hispanic" or "Latino" are those who classify themselves in one of the specific Hispanic or Latino categories listed on the Census 2000 or ACS questionnaire - "Mexican," "Puerto Rican," or "Cuban" - as well as those who indicate that they are "other Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino." Origin can be viewed as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of birth of the person or the person's parents or ancestors before their arrival in the United States. People who identify their origin as Spanish, Hispanic, or Latino may be of any "race".
1990 Census of Population and Housing: A self-designated classification for people whose origins are from Spain, the Spanish-speaking countries of Central or South America, the Caribbean, or those identifying themselves generally as Spanish, Spanish-American, etc. Origin can be viewed as ancestry, nationality, or country of birth of the person or person's parents or ancestors prior to their arrival in the United States."
- "Latino: People with roots in the Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking Americas. This broader term, mostly used in the United States, is sometimes used as a replacement for Hispanic. http://csuchico-dspace.calstate.edu/handle/10211.4/222
- http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/mexicanamerica/glossary.html (Defining "Hispanic" as meaning those with Spanish-speaking roots in the Americas and "Latino" as meaning those with both Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking roots in Latin America.)Goodsdrew (talk) 15:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
- CoCoLumps, Wikipedia articles are based on what reliable sources say, not on the opinions of contributors. Goodsdrew has provided several sources which indicate that Haitian's are not normally considered Latino. If you wish the template to state that they are, you need to provide sources that actually state this. And I suggest that both of you stop edit warring before you are blocked. Being 'right' isn't an exemption to WP:3RR. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:01, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
- What some you don't understand is the difference between Latino and Hispanic. Hispanic refers to people who have roots from Spain, while Latino is just people from or having roots in Latin America. For example: Puerto Ricans are both Latino and Hispanic, but Brazilians are Latino and not Hispanic because they come from the Portuguese. Haitians are technically Latino because they are apart of Latin America. Their language comes from the French, is French not a language with Latin roots? Haiti is listed in these pages: Latin Americans, Afro-Latin American, White Latin Americans, Latin American. Websites: Introduction to Latin America: Twenty-First Century Challenges Hugo Chavez' legacy in Haiti and Latin America --CoCoLumps (Love yourself) 01:21, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
- As our article Latin America makes clear, there are differing opinions and definitions involved here. There may well be no single 'right answer'. I suggest you both start by seeing if you can find sources which indicate whether Haitian's consider themselves Latino. As for the Latin roots of French, that is beside the point - we go by contemporary usage, rather than etymology. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:30, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
So far, the vast weight of sources that have been cited in this discussion say that Haitians are not Latino / Latin American. CoCoLumps is the only person in this thread arguing that Haitians should be identified as being Latino / Latin American. Let's try to reach consensus here. CoCoLumps--do you have any sources that support your views? Otherwise, the vast weight of the evidence points to reverting back to list Haitians as not being Latin American. If no sources are forthcoming, and if no one else chimes in to support the idea that Haitians are Latino, then I think we need to follow the sources and remove the references to Latino / Latin America. Let's give it 5-7 days and see where things stand. Anyone opposed?Goodsdrew (talk) 14:25, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
- The sources that you have cited in this discussion are U.S. base and their definitions about Latin America are a bit incorrect. I'm fully aware the term Latin America does not always include Haiti however that doesn't mean their not part of Latin America. I already cited more than one source that indicates Haitians are infact Latino and Latin American, I don't mind providing more source.
- "Hispanic: anyone from a country that speaks Spanish. (DOES not include Brazil) Hispanic: is NOT a racial category but denotes ETHNIC heritage. Hispanic is the term used by the US government.
- Latino: Anyone from a country whose language is a romance language. It includes Haitians, Brazilians, etc. Latino is used for more informal communication. Latino is more a term adopted by the Latin population itself.
- However, most Latino people prefer to be called by their country of origin and nothing else: Cuban, Ecuadorian, Colombian, Puerto Rican, etc.
- Latino is preferred because:
- - It relates directly to the experience of Latin-American people living in the USA. Therefore it defines a process of hybridization, combination and selection of cultural values. A transcultural term. It is not Latin-American nor American, it is both and a new thing at the same time. Therefore, it expresses paradox, complexity and defiance.
- - It denotes people who are the product of Latin-Indian and/or Latin-Black mestizaje and it is generally used by working class people. It affirms the cultures and people dominated by Mediterranean civilization in its career throughout the New World.
- - It suggests ethnic pride and cultural affirmation and solidarity among all Latino people fighting against racism, sexism and classism."
- Latin America, noun, the part of the American continents south of the United States in which Spanish, Portuguese, or French is officially spoken.
- "Haiti was the first independent nation of Latin America and the Caribbean, the black-led republic in the world, and the second republic in the Americas when it gained independence in 1804; as part of a successful slave revolution lasting nearly a decade (1791-1804)."
- History and Culture of Haiti --CoCoLumps (Love yourself) 09:18, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- Your first source is just someone's personal website and is not a reliable source under Wikipedia guidelines. Your other two sources are contradicted by the seven sources I've provided. With the weight of sources in this discussion indicating that Haitians do not qualify and without anyone else objecting to removing references to Haiti, it is clear that Haitians should not be listed in this article and I am removing the reference.Goodsdrew (talk) 21:04, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Savvyjack23 08:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC) says:
I guess I'll be the tie breaker here. Goodsdrew those "sources" that you provided, one wasn't reputable at all. The book discusses basically every bias towards the people of Haiti by American authors and the other source you mentioned saying it does not mention them as Latino, in fact does. "Haiti, which paradoxically is often forgotten in Latin American of Latin American countries." pg. 254
Haiti is in the Latin Union. To be accepted in this union, a country (being in Latin American territory), would have to meet a strict number of qualifications and Haiti meets all (language, location etc) while you will see countries like Jamaica, Guiana (the English one) excluded from this list for obvious reasons. You can check to see on the official website. (A reputable source)
To play devil's advocate on my own statement, Haiti has also tried to be included in the "African Union" and has failed. Haiti is currently only an observer. Mind you, in my personal opinion, some people in the Haitian government would like to be a part of this African Union, for the simple reason that Haiti was the first ever successful slave rebellion and its something of pride, but I wonder how the 5% (white, mulatto) feel about that inclusion.
Going off topic for a bit, it seems like we all have a difficult time with our colors. I am baffled when they call people black for having a drop of black blood in them. Our President for example, its funny how they always mention how black he is and fail to acknowledge he is half-white. In other parts of the world, (you can look this up for yourself) they have a term called passing as or passing for usually describing mixed races and which race they can pass for. A good example to use would be "Jason Kidd" the basketball player. He is half African American but try telling me the guy isn't clearly white as well. When the Russian news was talking about him, they "accidentally called him white," and was later corrected about it.
The best term to use for Jason Kidd is biracial passing as white. Obama would be biracial passing as black. It seems like our country is a step too slow in this regard. (Or how about mulatto?!)
An easy way to understand what race and an ethnicity is, is simple. Race = Color, Ethnicity = cultural origin. Example David Ortiz is a "black-Latino," and country specific a Dominican-American.
Now, in the context of Haitian-Americans, even though to the rest of the Latin-American world that would acknowledge that they are "Latino", sadly due to our lack of understanding for colors (race), ethnicities and language, the United States leaves them out of the equation when defining "who is a Latino?"
In conclusion, using the United States' terminology, a Haitian would not be considered a Latino but however, are called Haitian-Americans (not African Americans or Caucasian Americans); race being black, white or "other" (perhaps listed for the multi-racial). However using the Latin Union's terminology, they would be Latino. So as a result, it is a very gray area. Savvyjack23 (talk) 08:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
The whole census terminology system I feel like is flawed in general, and publicly we all are still stuck in our old racist habits for the fear of being caught omnipotent or inferior. Do you know that we still call Native Americans, American Indian?? By the way in terms of "hyphenated ethnicities" (ex: African-American, Italian-American) I've found an interesting short read on the subject. Check it out (http://www.diversityinc.com/ask-the-white-guy/ask-the-white-guy-is-a-white-person-from-africa-an-african-american/) Savvyjack23 (talk) 08:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Adding Filipino to the list?
Do to the Philippine islands being part of the Hispanadad (http://pinas.dlsu.edu.ph/history/history.html , http://philippines-timeline.com/spanish.htm) and Filipinos of Southern California helping in race relations. Last but never the least Filipino Americans are differentiated just as are Latinos Some are Natives others are not.... In pure defense just because they have been classified as only Asians in older American history references, that archaic classification should not give us current historians and Americans the right to discount their Hispanic lineage any longer. That pretense falls under the same attitudes of people discounting the white race of mixed raced people because they are brown of skin tone. Be as it will I changed the box. --Iamiyouareyou (talk) 14:51, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
It never will be fair that Filipino Americans of Hispanic decent receive twice the classification and twice the ethnic community. That is just what it is and it is are duty to stand tall and be unbiased and write the truthful information down.--Iamiyouareyou (talk) 14:57, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
More sources https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic_%28U.S._Census%29 , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_people#Colonial_influence, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_people_of_Spanish_ancestry , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_influence_on_Filipino_culture , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdLQ1nXDRSE
Do Basque Americans really belong in this template?
The template links to Basque Americans. However, as I understand it, Basque Americans are neither Latino (being from Europe) nor Hispanic (being not of Spanish-speaking origin). Is it misplaced on the template? --Gerrit CUTEDH 14:05, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
- Sampson, Ovetta (2012-02-29). "Long distance relationship: Haiti's bid to join the African Union". The Christian Science Monitor. Retrieved 2012-03-01.