Template talk:Holden timeline

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WikiProject Automobiles (Rated Template-class)
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Timeline colour scheme[edit]

God, it looks like smoke in the eyes. Is there a way to make it look nicer? Perhaps put white instead of the dark gray. No offense, just wanting to make it better.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.240.210 (talkcontribs) 16:32, 19 July 2007

Perhaps you should bring this one up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles, since the template merely follows the design, structure and colour scheme used on just about all other automotive timelines. OSX (talkcontributions) 05:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Modifications - Barina, Commodore, Calais, Monaro etc[edit]

I have made two modifications, but many more are needed:

1) There is a 'new' 5-door Barina hatch due in 2008. This brings the hatch in-line with the new sedan introduced in 2006. How can we deal with this 'overlapping' in the timeline, though?

2) Monaro production was from 2001-2006. Holden badged vehicles were only produced until 2005, while HSV models continued to be both built and sold in 2006. Sales figures reveal 912 Monaros being sold in 2006, while 152 were even sold in 2007 (however these would have all been built in 2006)

Now, as for the modifications I feel are needed:

1) Overlapping of old VZ Commodore wagon and new VE Sedan production. The timeline makes it look as if the entire Commodore range changed over in 2006, but VZ wagon production still continues. How do we show this?

2) The Commodore/Berlina/Calais should all be merged into a single line. As far as VFACTs sales figures are concerned, these are all the same model. Similarly, the Statesman and Caprice should both be merged as well. These models all change over at the same exact time, so having separate model lines is pointless and redundant. Davez621 (talk) 05:00, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, with the overlapping of the Barina, VE Commodore sedan and VZ Commodore wagon, there is not a lot that can be done. As for the Monaro, the HSV versions are irrelevant on the Holden timeline, so production should be restricted to the Holden versions. The last Monaros were indeed produced in 2005, which was what the timeline previously showed. However, if you read it the wrong way it looks like production ended in 2004. The dark shaded box spreads right to the end of the 2004 box, which indicates production ended in 2005. I have also removed reference to the Berlina, Calais and Caprice models. OSX (talkcontributions) 07:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for fixing that up. It really reduces the clutter. You make a good point, but you forget one thing - HSV do not build vehicles, they only sell them. Holden build the Monaro and HSV alter it. The Monaros built in 2006 therefore SHOULD count, because VFACTs do not count HSV models separately. Now, you could argue that Holden built the Toyota Lexcen in the 90s, so that should be in the timeline too? Well, the only difference is that for sales purposes, HSV are counted as Holden, it's as simple as that.Davez621 (talk) 16:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes I realise that HSV to not produce the vehicles, but they are not Holdens, and thus do not belong on the Holden timeline. It is possible that the 2006 models were actually built by Holden in 2005, but modified by HSV in 2006. I think that the Holden timeline should be reserved for the vehicles sold under the Holden nameplate, and not for those built by Holden, but sold under other marques. OSX (talkcontributions) 06:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
"Monaros" *were* still being built in 2006. Read the Wikipedia article on the Pontiac GTO - production stopped June 14, 2006. So presumbly, vehicles built in 2006 were being sold as both HSV and Pontiac. Think about it - if Holden had stopped production in 2005, there's no way there would be enough vehicles to last all the way through to 2007! As for the other issue of HSV being a separate marque - as I have mentioned, VFACTS don't consider it to be, for sales purposes. Just like AMG is considered part of Mercedes. VFACTS do not list separate sales figures for Clubsport, Senator, Grange, etc. They are grouped with Commodore and Statesman sales figures.Davez621 (talk) 12:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

(indent reset) As I said before, the HSV Monaros belong on a timeline to do with HSVs. I am aware that such a template does not exist, but that is irrelevant. VFACTS is not some holly book, just because VFACTS include HSVs as Holdens, doesn't mean we have to. If we took up that philosophy, we would not have a HSV article, but rather a short sentence about it in the Holden article. OSX (talkcontributions) 09:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Getting rid of Royale[edit]

Who on earth decided to include a conversion by an aftermarket company in the official Holden timeline?! Davez621 (talk) 14:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Holden undertook the Royale development themselves. This was because the car had to meet ADR requirements et cetera, but your right the conversion itself was not undertaken by Holden. OSX (talkcontributions) 00:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The Royale has been removed from this template as per Talk:List of Holden vehicles#Questions and suggestions. OSX (talkcontributions) 22:15, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

New style[edit]

Template was better looking when it had floating title in the blue top section like this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Holden_timeline&oldid=264220403 , is it possible to get back? --Typ932 T·C 08:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Fred Bradstadt has fixed this one up too [1]. OSX (talkcontributions) 22:13, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

lines between types[edit]

I added lines between types... sometimes the type spanned 2 or 3 rows and it was looking a little unclear. However, looking at other GM timelines it would seem such divider lines are not the norm. I'll leave it to someone else to decide to 1) revert the lines I added in the Holden template, 2) add such lines to the other templates, or 3) leave the lines in the Holden template and leave the other templates as they are. JBarta (talk) 12:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks good, and significantly aids usability. OSX (talkcontributions) 04:06, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

HZ Kingswood Panel Van[edit]

With regard to the question over the existence of the HZ Kingswood Panel Van, the "Holden Utes, Vans & One Tonners” brochure K247, issued by GMH in October 1977 has the following on the first of its two "Holden Vans" pages: "Two models, Kingswood and Holden. You get a little more in the way of features with Kingswood" The main photo on these pages shows a HZ Van with a "Kingswood" number plate and "Kingswood" badges on the grille and front guard. GTHO (talk) 03:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks.OSX (talkcontributions) 03:45, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
GTHO, please forgive my short-lived stint of vision impairment. "50 Years of Holden" does in fact list HQ-era Kingswood vans. OSX (talkcontributions) 07:27, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Scrollbar issue[edit]

When I view the Holden Timeline via Internet Explorer the scrollbar does not appear at the bottom of the chart. I’ve notice that a number of similar timelines e.g. Chevrolet, are split into two time periods so that the scrollbar is not needed. I suggest that we do the same to the Holden Timeline. GTHO (talk) 23:24, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you using IE 6 (came out in 2001 with XP, very old by web browser standards)? Try upgrading to the current version, or use another browser like Mozilla Firefox. The reaction of this timeline at WikiProject Automobiles (Scrollable timelines now available) was fairly positive, with most users embracing the change. The point of the single scrollable template was to reduce the number of timeline templates needed. Moving back would be counter productive. OSX (talkcontributions) 00:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion on Holden Timeline[edit]

I had always assumed that the main criteria for inclusion in the Holden Timeline was that the model was a Holden. With the inclusion of the "Statesman (HQ/HJ/HX/HZ/WB)" this seems to no longer be the case. What is the new criteria? GTHO (talk) 03:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

This is only in response to the large number of people who have complained about the HQ-WB Statesmans being missing (and those are only the people that have bothered to do complain: [2], [3], [4], [5]). Before I came here, I would have been confused as to why this information was missing here, and on the Holden Statesman page (hence why I added the small "Statesman (HQ–WB; 1971–1984)" section at the top). The information is only there to assist readers in finding the information they require. I know it is not a perfect solution, but for me it is good enough because the links to Statesman (automobile) and Holden Statesman make it very very clear that these initial cars were not badged or marketed as a Holden. I think is very important to provide the link as the absolute vast majority of people would know these cars as the "Holden Statesman". As far as I am aware, this website is the only online source to point this out. The used car sections of CarPoint, CarSales, drive and CarsGuide ALL list the cars as Holdens. Also, don't forget Red Book. OSX (talkcontributions) 04:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, I’ll take that as a lesson in customer relations. But, accepting that we are compelled to including this on the Timeline, I still have a problem with how we are doing it. Firstly linking 'HJ' to 'Holden HJ' is counter productive. Secondly if the reader sees 'Statesman (HQ/HJ/HX/HZ/WB)' on the Holden Timeline but does not follow the link to 'Statesman (automobile)' the incorrect perception that these Statesmans were marketed as Holdens is strongly reinforced. I propose that the entry be changed to Statesman (separate marque) (HQ/HJ/HX/HZ/WB) GTHO (talk) 03:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
The footnote approach still requires the reader to go searching to find the facts but I guess its a fair compromise. GTHO (talk) 23:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I have linked the dagger to the footnote, so it is easier to find. I think "separate marque" was going to cause confusion, as I doubt most people even know what a "marque" is. Microsoft Word keeps telling me "do you mean, marquee?" (yes, with double "e"). I guess that shows the non-widespread use of the term. OSX (talkcontributions) 01:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Dark bars[edit]

What's with the dark grey bars separating each vehicle style? Makes the template unneccessarily large. --Falcadore (talk) 03:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

The bars were added by Jbarta to make it easier to navigate.
From: Template talk:Holden timeline#lines between types. "I added lines between types... sometimes the type spanned 2 or 3 rows and it was looking a little unclear. However, looking at other GM timelines it would seem such divider lines are not the norm. I'll leave it to someone else to decide to 1) revert the lines I added in the Holden template, 2) add such lines to the other templates, or 3) leave the lines in the Holden template and leave the other templates as they are."
OSX (talkcontributions) 06:41, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Size[edit]

OK, this template is now too large. Even with the scrollbar helping it is now too tall to fit on the page at once. My screen is set at 1280x800 resolution and you can no longer see the top of the template while using the scrollbar. There needs to be a compromise between completism and usability. --Falcadore (talk) 23:10, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The scrollbar only affects the width; the issue is height. The only way to fix this is to increase the width so that the entries that currently flow onto a second line stay on one. However, the increase in width necessary to have all entries on a single line makes the template too long. If your problem pertains to not being able to see the year at the top while viewing the SUVs at the base of the template, then maybe the years should be repeated at the base. OSX (talkcontributions) 00:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
It's too tall generally. Repeating the years top and bottom won't help much, when the template essentially fills the entire screen, it's gone too far. With so many lines wrapping onto to two lines its trying to carry too much information. It is perhaps as much as 50% too tall. Does each car really need to carry each model badge name and every two letter code? Needs to be drastically simplified. In trying to be completiest it's no too unwiedly to use easily. --Falcadore (talk) 04:47, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
Any chance of getting this fixed so it becomes usable? The easiest solution might be to split the commercial vehicles from the passenger cars. --Falcadore (talk) 02:41, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
I honestly don't see it as much of a problem. Having two templates will make it even bigger on the pages with both templates (for example, Holden HQ) and removing commercials will only gain four lines. I did make some changes last November to reduce the height, but I don't think much else can be done without splitting into multiple templates—which would be even worse—take a look at Volkswagen Golf. OSX (talkcontributions) 08:51, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles with more than one template minimise themselves automatically, so yes it would be a very big improvement. You can then choose which template is on screen, or indeed, none of them. --Falcadore (talk) 09:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
So you want a new template to shift four lines worth of models? Having them all in a single template makes is so much easier to see which models were available at the same time. If you want to make the template fit onto your screen, you can use the browser to zoom out (see instructions for Firefox). OSX (talkcontributions) 09:18, 28 February 2011 (UTC)