Template talk:IrishL
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This article is currently subject to Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles#Final_remedies_for_AE_case, as laid out during a previous WP:AE case that closed October 05, 2008. If you are a new editor, or an editor unfamiliar with the situation, please follow the guidelines laid out in the above link. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it on this talk page first. |
[edit] Unionism vs Loyalism
Is it really a good idea to put Unionist parties, loyal orders and illegal paramilitary organisations in the same infobox? NotMuchToSay 14:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- Why not? They are all relevant to the topic. At least with this infobox, the different kinds of groups are separated into specific categories. With the Irish Republicanism infobox, all the different groups are lumped together (see template:IrishR). The Ulster Loyalism infobox seems to be a lot better organized. Spylab 16:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think there should be seperate infoboxes. This should also apply to the Loyalism infobox. There is also the complication that many unionists would not call themselves loyalists, nor would they particularly associate themselves with the flag at the top of the infobox. NotMuchToSay 17:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
NotMuchToSay is correct. I've not looked at the Republicanism infobox, but I can tell you that unionism doesn't fall under the category of loyalism. Loyalists are, generically speaking, pro-union. Unionists however wouldn't necessarily identify with the same symbols etc as loyalists - some strenuously reject such notions. I am one of them. I'm particularly aware, with regard to Republicanism, that there is a range of sensibilities (or extremes) within that movement. This is not quite the case with Loyalism - the range of extremes is much more narrow.
I'm not sure what the Belfast Agreement, the Government of Ireland Act 1920, or the Sunningdale Agreement has specifically to do with Loyalism. The Ulster Unionist Party isn't a loyalist political party, nor is the DUP. Both are rejected, with disdain even, by many loyalists.
I'm not sure about the song Rule, Britannia either. The Coat of Arms of Northern Ireland isn't a symbol I've seen associated with Loyalists much (if ever). The Red Hand isn't limited only to Loyalists and loyalism, nor are the Flag of Northern Ireland and the Union Jack.
This infobox needs seriously re-designed.. if its even to exist. --Mal 02:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't add the different groups, parties or agreements, so if there are certain groups, parties or agreements that loyalists oppose (or have nothing to to with them at all), then they should should be deleted. However, if a topic is somehow related to loyalism, it should stay. I also don't think I added unionism, but isn't loyalism a subset of unionism, i.e. a more militant version? I understand that unionists aren't considered loyalists, but aren't loyalists considered unionists? The reason I added Rule Britannia to the songs was that it is often sung by Rangers fans, but if it is never played/sung by loyalists in Northern Ireland, then by all means delete it. As for the other songs, symbols, and cultural elements, it is not necessary for them to be unique to loyalism. If loyalists use them, then they should be included in the infobox. If loyalists never use them, then go ahead and delete them. Spylab 12:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
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- Loyalists also eat Ulster Fries - should we add that to the infobox..? --Mal 18:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Inappropriate flag
Using the Flag of Northern Ireland is inappropriate to this template. I propose that another, more appropriate one, be found and inserted here instead. --Mal 18:07, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
- The Ulster Banner is used by Loyalist groups therefore the flag is appropriate.--padraig3uk 21:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Astrotrain the Ulster Banner is not a National Flag, Northern Ireland is not a Nation.--padraig3uk 17:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
- I've created a loyalist flag to be used rather than the national flag. Hope this helps. Astrotrain 19:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
- Why ? loyalists use the Ulster Banner more than any other flag. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 21:26, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
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- In response to Padraig3uk, the BNP and the NF both (mis-)use the Union Jack. That doesn't make it suddenly specific to Loyalists or Loyalism, who misuse the flag of Northern Ireland.
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- In response to Domer48's recent edit comment ("rv per talk"): this is not a valid reason for using an inappropriate flag for this template. You're all up in arms every time the flag is, as you see it, inappropriately used throughout Wikipedia.. now all of a sudden, you want to use it with this template and associate the flag of Northern Ireland specific to Loyalists. It isn't. --Setanta747 (talk) 03:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
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The LVF's flag is not appropriate for this template. Loyalists use the Ulster Banner. Domer48'fenian' 14:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
- Let me think about this for a second... you're saying that the Loyalist Volunteer Force flag is not appropriate for a template about Loyalism. Yer head;s full of wee sweetie mice fer frig sake!! Reverting. --Setanta747 (talk) 00:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
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- The flag of Northern Ireland isn't representative of Loyalism in general, or specifically either. The flag has other uses, besides being abused or misused by Loyalists, and it wasn't designed specifically with Loyalism (as we know it) in mind. The flag does belong in the "flags and emblems" section of the template, as it is (mis-)used by Loyalists, but not as the main picture representing Loyalism. To do so is to misinterpret and mislead people into thinking that the flag does specifically represent Loyalism.
- It needs changed to something else and I don't see why the flag of an actual Loyalist organisation can't be used to represent the template's content and purpose. --Setanta747 (talk) 19:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
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We're not using the flag of Northern Ireland on this template, as Northern Ireland doesn't have a flag. We're using a flag that loyalists use, and is not specific to any minor factions of loyalism but one that is used by all loyalists. Domer48'fenian' 21:08, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- The flag of Northern Ireland is currently being used in this template. It is not specific to Loyalists or Loyalism - an alternative needs to be found, as this is tantamount to WP:WEASEL. --Setanta747 (talk) 21:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
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- I've decided that it's prudent to replace the flag of Northern Ireland in this template with a more appropriate flag. The flag I had previously added seems to still be the most appropriate Loyalist flag that yet exists in Wikipedia, so I will re-add that one until an even more appropriate flag (should one actually exist) is found. --Setanta747 (talk) 16:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Content dispute re flag
Given the long-running and slow-burning edit war over which flag should be in the infobox, I've removed the icon entirely until editors can reach a consensus on what image (if any) belongs there. Please note that further reverts will result in article protection, and the reverting account(s) may also be blocked. EyeSerenetalk 13:06, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
- There is a consensus on which flag should be used. The flag used is a staunchly Loyalist flag, the actions of one disruptive editor should not prevent its use. O Fenian (talk) 13:09, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
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