Template talk:John F. Kennedy

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Restructure[edit]

I have restructured and reordered the template [1]. No links were deleted (except for double ones); there are 126 outgoing links. Edits:

  • Minor: use "U.S." abbrev where not official; make Biuku and Eroni one link as their page is (Naval period); the 'Kennedy Rocking' name; formats,
  • Group order: all political life put in top, presidency first on purpose; personal life below.
  • Presidency group: was a long list of ~40 links. Made subgroups: Office/Domestic/Foreign/White House. I may have erred in subtleties, but I think such a subdivision this gives more overview for our readers. -DePiep (talk) 12:49, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Legacy and Memorials should be moved to after death. Kierzek (talk) 12:53, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Just saw this, and had made those two moves already. Wikipedia minds think alike. Randy Kryn 13:08 23 October, 2014 (UTC)
Now the subtopic title "Presidential office" is gone (I liked it myself ;-) ), but now the opening links are without leader or anchor point. Also, the judicial actions (I had to put them somewhere) are a out of place somehow. Any other options? -DePiep (talk) 13:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I thought opening up the top one with obvious links to the overall section name 'Presidency' would work. Reason I did this was because of a personal dislike for black listings in templates. See 'Template:Ghosts' for lots of black topic headers (Lincoln's ghost is on there, a fine ghost with a fine disposition). Judicial could go at the end of Domestic? And probably the Foreign Policy section and Domestic sections should be in chronological order (have thought of doing this in the past but haven't). I'll put another link for "timeline" in that first area, give them two cracks at it (not everyone, me included for awhile, knows to click on section headers). I love the 'Happy Birthday Mr. President' link, but it didn't go with 'White House', so moved it to 'Personal life' section. Randy Kryn 14:08 23 October, 2014 (UTC)
Well, {{Ghosts}} has 6 bold words for 30 links; this was 4 bold words (on newline) fo 40 links.
Yesterday I was surprised (not helped) that the !first two links lead to the same (presidency + timeline). Confusion for a reader. After all, two links suggest two different articles. Maybe unlink the Presidency then, link adds nothing (as you say). I'll see where it goes. -DePiep (talk) 15:19, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes it might be a very good idea to move Marilyn from "white house" to "private life". I'll have to check other presidents for this. btw, did you ever hear how she sang it? -DePiep (talk) 15:23, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Marilyn is squeezed in the right spot. Also for a good guideline see how LBJ's template is organized. Kierzek (talk) 15:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
LBJ's looks good indeed. But too has that huge clunk of links in top. Over here, I found that naval group a bit hard to position. (into group 'life' maybe?). I won't edit, see what happens. -DePiep (talk) 17:26, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Guess I personally don't mind double listings like the Timeline (some readers will find it on one click, some another) but that's just a personal preference. And Hey, Hey, LBJ(how many kids..)'s template is another I've been meaning to put into chronological order (have done that with most presidential templates except for a few). The Naval thing was floating on top of this template when I came upon it, and so just left it there after expanding it. It's a bit more than 'Life' and a bit less than 'Death' (although JFK almost died by drowning even after he swam to the Island - learned that from reading that Bill O'Reilly book now, lots of good data). And Marilyn, who had a knack for squeezing into a tight spot (and into her tight dress when she seductively serenaded JFK)...I've mentioned in the past that there should be a page for JFK's mistresses (O'Reilly's book has quite a few I've never heard of. Maybe a JFK Mistress Tree? lol). A handful of us are playing well in the fields of the Kennedy's (added the British Memorial to JFK, which is in a field), so Caroline should come around shortly with a plate of cookies. Randy Kryn 18:18 23 October, 2014 (UTC)
I would put "naval" under 'Life'. I am sure the LBJ template could use some tweaking as well; I just thought it was already in pretty good form. We already discussed on the JFK talkpage why there is no need for a "mistress page". As for O'Reilly's book I have read it as well and there are some things he gets wrong and other areas (mafia) he plays loose with the facts. To not take up space here, see my JFK book section - user page for ones which I believe to be better. Kierzek (talk) 18:37, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
No 'JFK Mistress Tree'? Oh well. I did move his Navy data into the 'Life' section, labeling it per the talk page. Thanks for linking your book list. And have put back the 'Presidential Office' opener.Randy Kryn 19:21 23 October, 2014 (UTC)
Its looking good; next you can give "the treatment" to LBJ's template. Speaking of LBJ, he was like MLK, Jr. and FDR, much better at discretion, as far as a "mistress tree". Kierzek (talk) 19:38, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
The 'Presidential office' sub-header does seem a good place for the Judicial appointments. I had moved those because of removing that title, but now I see what DePiep is getting at, that the office of the president has specific duties which would be included in that sub-header. I hadn't grasped the full logic of such a division, and it's a very good idea. I'll put it back the way DePiep had it, which once-again completes the interesting four section division DePiep came up with. The two links to the timeline, I've added it to the section head 'Presidency (timeline)' which might work, seem okay? Randy Kryn 3:07 24 October, 2014 (UTC)
An interesting Wikpedia JFK omission, there aren't pages for his 1961, 1962 or 1963 State of the Union addresses. I was pondering if they would be listed under 'Presidential office' or not, and then found (actually refound) they didn't exist. You'd think those would be three major speeches in JFK's presidency and legacy, but if they were rated as memorable someone would have likely put up a page. Has my curiosity up. Wikisource has them, I'll have to read them. Randy Kryn 3:30 24 October, 2014 (UTC)
  • I created {{this}} rough demo (this version), that shows how we could merge the Robert + Family navboxes. Those persons close to Bob get his navbox, and far-away family members like Patrick Kennedy (1823–1858), get the bare but still complete stand alone {{Kennedy family}} navbox. -DePiep (talk) 18:49, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
    • Good, but I'd include the siblings, notable grandchildren, and grandparents of each brother on all the templates, and put them on the pages as well. Key family members of individuals include siblings and grandchildren, as well as the grandparents of these political icons, and the story told by those links traces, at a glance, the flow of individual genes. I can see what your getting at, yet I think the Family template is valuable while also keeping that main personal individual information on each template. Randy Kryn 22:00 24 October, 2014 (UTC)
Not important. It's a demo to support to Keep that template. -DePiep (talk) 22:04, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
I think it may be kept now anyway, a clear consensus is far from reached to remove it. I'm usually surprised at how few people vote on those things anyway. There is a place for it, and in reality it's not taking up much room, just an extra line on the Kennedy pages. The brothers' templates, on the other hand, go on hundreds of articles not related to family, and provide the route to the other data either by themselves or in conjunction with a brother or two. Randy Kryn 23:03 24 October, 2014 (UTC)
I'll first see if it is kept. I wouldn't know what to do without it. I really don't know how the tree graph could be made into a navbox. Also I don't know about SNUGGUMS' recent opinions in these. I guess these could help in future cooperations. -DePiep (talk) 09:39, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
  • New subtopics: above & below notes. Could we 1. put the three positions (pres, sen, rep) in different lines (using <br/>)? In my screen they make a strange line break. 2. Could we move the before/after (Eisenhower/LBJ) links in top too, near the president link? -DePiep (talk) 09:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
The before/after links are on every American presidential template, linking from the bottom. They act as the 'railway' line between these templates. Moving them to the top (above) section would seem unrelated (at least to me) to the individual's template. The top on my screen works fine, and looks good, so that's one on which I couldn't comment on about the code. Randy Kryn 9:59 25 October, 2014 (UTC)
OK re bottom. re top: With me, the top lines (3 positions) break within the third one. "(1947–1953)" is on a new line, a strange effect (wrongfooting my eyes). Give each one a nowrap tag? -DePiep (talk) 10:06, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
I hate it when that happens (tried to find a link for that line, failed). Seems reasonable, although much of Wikipedia's coding is outside my expertise. Randy Kryn 10:19 25 October, 2014 (UTC)
I'll edit that, and if you or someone else dislikes it just revert. See the editsummary. ({{nowrap}} prevents occurring a newline aka line break, so keeps words together). -DePiep (talk) 16:06, 25 October 2014 (UTC)