Template talk:Middle Eastern American

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Afghanistan[edit]

"afghanistani american" is far less common:

if you check on yahoo search, you'll see that the word "afghan american" has been used in 33 million places, while the word "afghanistani american" only used in 56,000 places.

The term Afghan: a native or inhabitant of Afghanistan" clik here for merriam webster dictionary, in antiquity, has been synonymous with Pashtun. However, since the establishment of the modern state and the ratification of various versions of the Afghan constitution, all individuals within the borders of Afghanistan are referred to as Afghans and are bound by the same rights and responsibilities under the law: "Article Four of the Preamble: The word Afghan shall apply to every citizen of Afghanistan. No individual of the nation of Afghanistan shall be deprived of citizenship."click for constitution of afghanistan here

Article Four, of the constitution of afghanistan:

the cia factbook on afghanistan uses Afghan, see here >>>CIA

this template needs to change "afghanistani" to >>>>"afghan". this is the best solution i can think of, if not then i am absolutely sure there will be many afghans coming here to complain in the future. it serves no purpose to leave it as is "afghanistani".Mirrori1 12:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Why does this template exist?[edit]

If it was decided (apparently) that there are no Middle Eastern Americans, when that article was deleted? SamEV 04:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

It was for an article that was twice deleted. As such, it is still used by several articles[1], as a template at the end of the article. Atari400 17:16, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh I know, I just think you guys should write a new article, one that's careful not to claim that Americans of Middle Eastern extraction form an ethnic group or a separate race. Just describe them as 'Americans descended from Middle Eastern countries.' SamEV 21:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Even though I support your proposition, the reality is that there exists just too much opposition to it's sustained creation. After all, no one can even define the parameters of the Middle East, and many of the groups outside of Muslim Mashriqi Arabs that might be listed as Middle Eastern, utterly object to such a label. As a result, the article ends up either deleted, or devoid of any real substance. Unfortunately, there are just too many Wikipedia editors with a strong bias in relation to such an article. Atari400 23:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I guess that article will have to wait till next year, then. ;) SamEV 04:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, that is the case, though I would like to see such an article come into existence. Atari400 07:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

User Atari400[edit]

Since you are the one who made this controversial edit please explain it prior to redoing it, based on AGF i'm presuming this wasn't some practical joke as you refused to explain yourself earlier[2].-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 20:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I really do not like your attitude, as it appears you are assuming bad faith on my part. When you are ready to discuss this matter in a civil manor, please leave a message on my user talk page. Atari400 23:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yakuts Americans[edit]

I believe that Yakuts Americans should are in the template "American Middle East" (Yakuts are not Russian Europeans because they are of the east of Russia, in Asia). I believe the Yakut American should be put in some template related with this group for that they are more easy localized in the articles of ethic groups of United States and, because they are culturally Turkish, I believe more appropriate to include in the template "American Middle East". I would wanted to get their views on the incorporation of the American ethnic group to that template.--Isinbill (talk) 13:08, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Non American links[edit]

I removed some non American links here: [3]

User Evildoer187 says that the argument I used for its removal is "Poorly reasoned deletions" and re ads the non American links: [4]

How does that make any sense? this is a template about "Middle Eastern American". How is the argument that links to non-American people shouldn't be here a "Poorly reasoned deletions" ? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:15, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

The Jewish link on the template leads to the American Jews page. There are no Ashkenazi American, Sephardic American, etc pages. Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, Italqim, and Romaniote Jews are included because they are the diaspora groups confirmed to have origins in the Middle East, which is what this template is for (i.e. "original peoples of the Middle East"). These ties appear to be absent in Yemenite Jews, but they're included anyway because they're from Yemen.Evildoer187 (talk) 05:20, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi, Italqim, Romaniote and Yemenite Jews are not Americans. So you have still not provided any argument for why they should be added to this template. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Could we get you to only add to templates of this nature articles that are directly country related. This was also done here at the Canadian template and was reverted. I am concern we will have to look back at other template additions see if we have the same problem.Moxy (talk) 17:49, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
I got rid of all the sub-links.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
i have reverted your orphaning of valid articles. Pls discus any further changes before implementation.Moxy (talk) 22:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
I fear that "Jewish" is too vague, and I feel its necessary to be specific as to which Jewish groups this applies to (i.e. those with roots in the Middle East). If it's ok, I can re-implement these groups and make it so they all go back to the American Jews page.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:57, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
What's the point of discussing this if people are only going to ignore me?Evildoer187 (talk) 23:08, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Pls allow time for people to reply (more then 10 minutes). Pls do not make redirect all to the same page as there is no need to link the same page multiple times in one template Wikipedia:Navigation templates#Properties - or link articles that are not about the topic at hand - that is articles about the demographics and ethnicity of the United States. If you fear that "Jewish" is to vague then make new articles on the topic - lots of info to be had. Perhaps some mentorship would be useful for you - they can explain all as you go.Moxy (talk) 23:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
I changed Jewish to Jewish diaspora. I feel that at least narrows it down a bit.Evildoer187 (talk) 23:23, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Not sure why we would say this in a template - How is this better? You are aware that all non-native populations would be considered diaspora right? i.e Category:Scottish diaspora. I will let others jump-in - see if they can explain things better then I can.Moxy (talk) 23:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
For Jews, it's a little more complex because if we aren't as clear as possible, we run the risk of inadvertently implying that converts to Judaism, with no actual Jewish roots, are Middle Eastern as well. That is why I wanted to include the diaspora sub-populations into the list, because it narrows it down to those Jewish peoples who are actually Semitic, or Middle Eastern in general.Evildoer187 (talk) 23:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Maybe I can add a little notice to the bottom of the template that clears things up a bit more.Evildoer187 (talk) 23:56, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Concern here - you are aware that the majority of Jews in North American are not directly from the Middle East right? They come from all over the world (Russia, Germany etc.). Are you trying to imply they are all direct decedents of people from the Middle East? Pls no Or on the template.Moxy (talk) 00:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
The template is supposed to include "all of the original peoples of the Middle East". And Jews are, by definition, an ethnic group with roots in the Middle East.Evildoer187 (talk) 00:07, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Ok lets be clear here - the article you are referring to is about the Jewish faith and Jewish ethnicity in the United States - Thus a statement like "With the exception of recent converts, Jews are of ancestral Middle Eastern origin is not accurate. Pls just let the articles speak for themselves - no need for notes in templates. Moxy (talk) 00:25, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
We have to draw some kind of distinction between ethnic Jews and converts for the purpose of this template. Otherwise, it would be too ambiguous and confusing. And "with the exception of recent converts, Jews are of ancestral Middle Eastern origin" is not inaccurate as virtually all relevant data/consensus has shown that A) conversion to Judaism was rare until the mid-20th century and B) ethnic Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi etc) are overwhelmingly Semitic/Middle Eastern by descent, in addition to being culturally and ethnically separate from the peoples they lived with. Evildoer187 (talk) 00:28, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Ok then do so in an article - this template is not the place for notes or useless redirect to the same page or pages not related to Americans. Your trying to make the topic standout from the rest of the topics (links) for no reason. Just move on plsMoxy (talk) 00:37, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Other templates (such as the European American one) have notes similar to the ones I've posted, so what's the problem with doing the same thing here? The template was fine as it was before, as it explicitly defined which Jews were Middle Eastern. All I am trying to do is make it less ambiguous.Evildoer187 (talk) 02:28, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Evildoer, your position on this is WP:FRINGE. I don't know a single Ashkenazi Jewish American who consider themselves "Middle Eastern". And I have never seen a source which suggests otherwise. Your points about converts is WP:OR, because even if the fact about low levels of conversion / genetics is correct, you are extrapolating to reach your conclusion that these facts make them "Middle Eastern". If you want to prove otherwise, you need to find mainstream sources to support your position here. And in the meantime, i suggest you read up about Identity politics which i take from this discussion that you don't really understand. Oncenawhile (talk) 09:17, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
To be clear, the same obviously goes for Italqim and Romaniotes, and many Sephardim - the clue is in the name. For those who aren't familiar, Ashkenazi means German, Italqim means Italian, Romaniotes means Greek, and Sephardim means Spanish. The subtlety with the last of these is that many Sephardim are North African Arabic speakers - please note however that North Africa is not in the Middle East. Oncenawhile (talk) 09:28, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

"I don't know a single Ashkenazi Jewish American who consider themselves "Middle Eastern"."

Informal fallacies like this are not particularly useful either. Do you seriously believe that Jews are just "Poles, Russians, etc" who converted to Judaism, and not a distinct ethnic group with roots in the Middle East? If so, then I suggest you read this.

In any case, I'm removing all of the subcategories until we resolve this.Evildoer187 (talk) 10:32, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I went back to put the template as it was prior, to more easily reach the articles of ethnic groups of Middle Eastern Americans and need not look at wikipedia the articles individually or categories. There are no articles on wikipedia about Caucasians, Turkic Americans. If you remove the links that lead to the different ethnic groups in these two categories, we can not enter in your articles, unless that seek one by one on wikipedia, because it will no are in the template. Nor, will be in the template no article that will lead us to the articles of these ethnic groups. This is do more difficult things unnecessarily. --Isinbill (talk) 16:39, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Alright, then. We'll leave the template as it currently stands until there are appropriate Ashkenazi American/Sephardi American/Mizrahi American etc links to include.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:09, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Could you pls hold to your word "leave the template " - I have reverted your dec 23 rd additoion again.Moxy (talk) 00:01, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea why you took issue with that edit. All I did was alphabetize it.Evildoer187 (talk) 08:07, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

I do not understand why Caucasus and Turkic peoples are linked. I agree that the the words "Caucasus" and "Turkic" should be included for organization but they do not link to an American group which could cause slight confusion. The subgroups are sufficient as links to assist the reader while researching the specific topic.Cptnono (talk) 19:01, 25 December 2012 (UTC)