Template talk:Nobel laureates in economics

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Format[edit]

Some comments on various formating issues:

Template Name: This should be standardized. I propose Template:Nobel laureates in ... for all boxes.

Header: I propose two separate links: Nobel (Memorial) Prize in ... linking to the main entry, then colon, then Laureates link to the list of laureates in the discipline

Year: This should precede the list of laureates, since it's sorted by year not laureates. I also recommend removing the visual clutter (parentheses and vertical lines) and go with a simple colon. Proposed format: 72Hicks·Arrow

Separators: I'm ambivalent between commas and the alt-0183 dot. The dot has the advantage that it keeps all laureates within one year in a single line. The comma is the established form. I removed all and's since "and" has a specific meaning in Nobel Prizes (sharing vs. splitting) which isn't reflected in this list. ~ trialsanderrors 20:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Updates: I ditched the alt-0183 dot in favor of commas throughout. I'm fine with changing years to non-bold, I checked it and it looks good. I'll also adopt the format with the highlighting. What about colors? I suggest one distinctive color for the headers. The one I used comes close to the bronze the [nobel.se] site uses. I'm also considering creating a Nobel laureates info box. ~ trialsanderrors 08:36, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Also, I added two boxes to Marie Curie's entry and I don't think they're too intrusive. That's about the worst case scenario there is, two boxes with ~100 entries each. So I think we're fine setting the defalut to show. ~ trialsanderrors 08:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Title[edit]

There's some edit warring over the title here. Given that Economics is a special case in the Awards, I can see the argument for it having a different name. Can this be discussed by the parties in question? Chris Cunningham 13:08, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The titles given should be what the prize is called (not a random nickname). That's it. Wikipedia should avoide deceptive names and outtight lies. // Liftarn
The issue is that this could be seen to contradict WP:NAME. Is there a particular consensus amongst the community at large that the economics prize is not to be referred to as the "Nobel Prize in Economics"? There are plenty of examples of events not being titled after their official names in cases where the unofficial name enjoys broad support. Chris Cunningham 14:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
The title is one thing, what is used in the body text is another. WP:NAME is about article naming. According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Identity "Use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification) whenever this is possible." and here it clearly is possible. Also WP:HOAX say "Please do not attempt to put misinformation into Wikipedia to test our ability to detect and remove it.". // Liftarn
I think we should be assuming good faith here; this doesn't appear to be an attempt to spread a hoax. And this is about the article title, as in "the thing in the title bar of the template". I'm happy either way, but thought it'd be better to initiate a dialogue than have this be a revert war. Chris Cunningham 14:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I think the ones who try to spread this missinformation (or hoax if you prefer) should know that they are wrong by now after so many people have told them so. // Liftarn
See your talk. Chris Cunningham 10:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Protected[edit]

I've protected this page due to ongoing edit warring over the prize's title. I've included a time limit, but will re-protect it if there's no consensus. I recommend running an RFC to get more outside inquiry, and perhaps soliciting some advice from WT:NAME and other relevant talk pages. I trust that I've fulfilled my adminly duties and have protected the Wrong Version, so you don't need to tell me about that.

I've also protected:

Note that there's significant discussion at Template talk:Nobel Prize in Economics Laureates 2001-2025. I think discussion on this issue should be centralized here to avoid WP:MULTI.

If changes need to be made to these templates that are not related to the prize's title, you can contact me, any other admin, or use the {{editprotected}} template. Thanks. Cool Hand Luke 20:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Template Name & Title[edit]

I would like to end this really lame edit war. So let's take a look at this template's history:

Dates Title Changed by
2006-05-13 - 2006-10-04 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics (Original name)
2006-10-04 - 2006-10-23 Nobel Prize in Economics (+move) Vision Thing
2006-10-23 - 2007-03-18 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences Liftarn
2007-03-18 - 2007-09-01 Nobel Prize in Economics Camptown
2007-09-01 - 2007-10-08 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics Emerson7
2007-10-08 - 2007-10-11 Nobel Prize in Economics Vision Thing
2007-10-11 Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel Liftarn
2007-10-11 Nobel Prize in Economics Vision Thing
2007-10-11 - 2007-10-13 Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel Liftarn
2007-10-13 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics Anthon.Eff
2007-10-13 - 2007-10-15 Nobel Prize in Economics Lost.goblin
2007-10-15 Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel Liftarn
2007-10-15 Nobel Prize in Economics Lost.goblin
2007-10-15 Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel Liftarn
2007-10-15 Nobel Prize in Economics Camptown
2007-10-16 Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel Liftarn
2007-10-16 Nobel Prize in Economics Camptown
2007-10-17 Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel Liftarn
2007-10-17 Nobel Prize in Economics Vision Thing
2007-10-18 Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel Panda
2007-10-18 Nobel Prize in Economics Camptown
2007-10-18 Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel Panda
2007-10-18 Nobel Prize in Economics Camptown
2007-10-19 Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel Panda
2007-10-19 Nobel Prize in Economics Vision Thing

Looking at the edits in the last few weeks, the following names are apparently not acceptable by all parties involved and have been the cause of the edit war:

  • Nobel Prize in Economics
  • Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel
  • Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel

So I propose to change the name of the template and the title in the template to something other than the above three names. That would leave:

  1. Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics
  2. Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences

Insisting on keeping the name at any of the three that have caused the edit war would indicate that you are only interested in continuing this edit war. Comments? –panda 01:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I've previously said that I can accept Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics. I think that name would be acceptable to most economists. That said, this is not Sweden, and what the people of the English-speaking world call the prize is what they call the prize. Swedish editors who show up here in the English WP and insist on making us conform to the Swedish custom--well, it's either activism (with some unstated agenda), or it's just demented. But hey, I want peace. I can accept Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics. --Anthon.Eff 23:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know much about template naming (as opposed to article naming), but I think Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics is a good compromise. I don't like "Economic Sciences" because my impression is that that phrase is not usual in English; in my experience it's just referred to as economics. --Tkynerd 00:16, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy to compromise, but I think this whole issue should be solved once and for all in [Nobel Prize in Economics] rather than having this kinds of arguments again and again for every page that refers to it. (Also I would like to point out that even in Sweden many people just calls it 'Nobel Prize in Economics', even in the media, even despite of the political pressure from the left to use another name). --Uriel 12:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Are we talking about the name of the template or the name in the template? The name in the template should be the official name rather than a nickname. The name of the template shold probably be as short as possible without sacrificing accuracy so there would "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics" probably be best. // Liftarn

I am proposing for both the name of the template and the name in the template. –panda 20:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Given only those two choises I would go with "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" since it has more Google hits (44,500 vs 26,500 for "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics") and it seems to be the official short form.[1] I would still prefer the full name in the template since there is no real lack of space or anything. // Liftarn

The name of the template should be same as the name of the main article. For the name in the template I would be willing to accept Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics as a compromise. -- Vision Thing -- 15:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I expect the article (as well as the templates) to be renamed as well. // Liftarn
I think that may be too much to ask. Templates have different naming considerations than articles—template titles, in particular, should be concise to be useful. The name in the template is a different matter (that probably has more in common with the article), but on both issues we're just looking for a practical consensus that everyone can live with, even if it's not their first choice. It looks like "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" is a promising compromise. Would anyone not be able to live with it? Cool Hand Luke 16:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
While I'm willing to accept "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics" as the title in the templates, I'm not willing to accept "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences". It's longer, and "economic sciences" sounds too weird. -- Vision Thing -- 18:38, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no personal opinions about either name. Just wanted to point out that "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" is used by Encyclopaedia Britannica (2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, etc), the Associated Press ([2] [3]), the New York Times (2007 laureates, 2001 laureates Milton Friedman dies, 2006), universities (UChicago UChicago UCSD, George Mason), the US Department of State (2007 2006), etc. –panda 16:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with -- Vision and Tkynerd: "economic sciences" sounds strange. Nobody uses that term in U.S. universities. And by the way, why does everyone translate ekonomisk vetenskap in the plural? --Anthon.Eff 00:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Disagree. "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" is a) by far the most used version (nearly twice as many Google hits) and b) the name used in reliable sources and c) the short version used by for instance The Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences. // Liftarn
Disagree because those are essentially straight translations of the Swedish original phrase ekonomisk vetenskap, using a plural form that is supported neither by the Swedish original nor by common English usage. Either economics or economic science is acceptable, although the latter has no support in common English usage either (it does follow the Swedish original, which is not plural). I note also that some of the sources referenced by panda use science rather than sciences. --Tkynerd 12:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
If you really want to go the Google-hits route Liftarn, then I guess we should stick with Nobel Prize in Economics--the number of hits will vary depending on your location on the planet, but NPiE will always return many more hits than NMPiES. I think it best to ignore Google on this one. I can tell you, because I know, that no one in the economics profession uses the term economic sciences--it has a very bloated and pompous sound, like something inscribed on a building or the name of a foreign award. Give it that name, and an editor will come along and change it because it sounds too goofy. We are trying here to find a name that will stick, and NMPiES is not that name. --Anthon.Eff 13:08, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
No, but it's both officially endorsed[4], used in reliable sources[5] and more popular so the only objection to using that name is really just "I don't like it" or are there any real arguments for "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics"? // Liftarn

It's very strange to see the sides switch on popularity. "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" is interesting because it's more popular than either full name versions on yankee google, but it's much less common than "Nobel Prize in Economics." I find this especially curious because it does sound weird, but it's commonly used anyway. Feel free to add to this table if it's helpful:

name google.com google.co.uk
"in UK"
"Prize in Economics"
includes all of "Nobel Prize in Economics"
578,000 46,300
"Nobel Prize in Economics"
includes all instances of "Nobel Prize in economics"
512,000 43,200
"Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" 42,000 540
"Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" 39,700 343
"Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" 32,200 185
"Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics" 25,300 816
"Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Science" 22,900 318

Cool Hand Luke 14:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, not all of those are available options right now. // Liftarn
In case someone decides to bring this up again: No, you will not get the same numbers if you click on the links, but yes, that's normal. –panda 16:01, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Numbers for "Prize in Economics" are distorted. Most of them are coming from "Nobel Prize in Economics". -- Vision Thing -- 16:28, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Agree. I didn't add that; it's a pointless listing. Cool Hand Luke 16:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Numbers for "Nobel Prize in Economics" are also distorted since they include all instances of "Nobel Prize in economics" and possibly other names as well. (e.g., the first hit I get for "Nobel Prize in Economics" is the Nobel Foundation's website but there is no mention of "Nobel Prize in Economics" anywhere in the html.) But that's off-topic. –panda 17:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Google does that when many links to a page use the phrase, even if it does not appear there. This is no googlebomb: nearly all of the many, many hits appear to use the name in the document. There's little doubt that it's the most common by about one order of magnitude. That said, it's not an option that's on the table now. Cool Hand Luke 17:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there any chance that this discussion could move to Talk:Nobel Prize in Economics? It is quite ridiculous to have this arguments again and again in every page that is even remotely related to this prize (whatever you want to call it). Whatever your opinion, I just can't see any reason not to solve this once and for all and move on to do more useful work. And I certainly think that usage should be consistent across wikipedia, so discussing this again and again on every article that mentions the prize is just not an option. --Uriel 16:23, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, we could move the discussion there, with the understanding that the template names (as opposed to the name in the templates) have a special emphasis on brevity that articles don't have. The article seems to be in the middle of a related edit war though, and I'd like the discussion to be as focused as possible. Cool Hand Luke 16:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Saying that a WP policy about a page title should then enforce the name of this prize in the content of all related articles is silly. There are several articles where both names have been used without any conflicts. The problem has only been in articles where some editors feel that only one name should be used. Obviously you can't put both names in the title of an article but there's nothing wrong with using both names in an article. –panda 17:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Opinions so far[edit]

It looks like 3 editors are in favor "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics", Panda is neutral, and only Liftarn is for "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences". I find Liftarn's opposition strange because in more than one occasion he reverted "Nobel Prize in Economics" to "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics". Maybe he is contrarian by nature. -- Vision Thing -- 16:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

We also haven't heard opinions from Camptown or Uriel. They were also warring, and I consider their input important if we're to have stability on this template. Cool Hand Luke 16:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I think this argument here is pointless and the issue should be resolved in Nobel Prize in Economics, we need a consistent way to name the prize in all articles, having this argument again and again in every article that happens to mention the prize is ridiculous and we are wasting valuable time that could be spent improving the content of articles. --Uriel 00:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
As you can tell, Vision_Thing, I have tried several versions of the name only to have it instantly reverted to an official and missleading nickname. // Liftarn
CHL: Perhaps you should ask Camptown to comment here. He's been active in WP, just not here. –panda 18:07, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Looks like he's not that interested. Ok, what now? // Liftarn

Memorial[edit]

I added the term "Memorial" to the heading of this template and the sub-template to bring them in line with Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, which is the currently fairly stable name of the article about Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, which is its full name. The logic is Nobel Prize = Nobel Laurate, Nobel Memorial Prize = Nobel Memorial Laurate; the template should not use a different terminology than the article. Tomas e (talk) 11:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)