Template talk:Palestinian territory development

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This template is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Israel (Rated Template-class)
WikiProject icon This template is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 Template  This template does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration
WikiProject icon This template is within the scope of the WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, the ArbCom-authorized discretionary sanctions, the log of blocks and bans, and Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. You can discuss the project at its talk page.
 
WikiProject Palestine (Rated Template-class)
WikiProject icon This template is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.
 Template  This template does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
 

Issues with this picture[edit]

Map A. The mandate was for the Jewish people under international law, a sacred trust with the Jewish people Map B. The 67 lines are not borders. Here's the relevant text from the armistice agreement. Article 2 of the agreement "It is also recognized that no provision of this Agreement shall in any way prejudice the rights, claims and positions of either Party hereto in the ultimate peaceful settlement of the Palestine question, the provisions of this Agreement being dictated exclusively by military considerations". http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/arm03.asp

Merge[edit]

This page is resembling too much to Template:Palestinian nationalism; it is also not clear what is "territory development" (could be agriculture). I herewith propose its merger back into Palestinian nationalism template.Greyshark09 (talk) 14:05, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Wrong Venue Template merge discussion are supposed to take place at WP:TFD, this improperly formed discussion can not result in a valid merge result. After taking this to TFD copy my bellow vote to the TFD discussion
OK, good point.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:19, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Tfd[edit]

Per previous merger discussion, this template is now nominated for deletion, see discussion.GreyShark (dibra) 16:48, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Is there a smaller version?[edit]

It would be nice to have a smaller, less detailed version for use in more articles. Since the first column might be a bit too abstruse, perhaps that could also be cut out. Thoughts? CarolMooreDC🗽 20:26, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

"1916-22 Proposals" belongs here?[edit]

This first box is too confusing and duplicate to the second box which has the final borders of the 1923-48 Mandatory Palestine. I think it should be removed, perhaps put into it's own template - assuming there isn't one already. Hearing no objections, will do so... User:Carolmooredc 15:34, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Carol, I think it's an equally important box to the others and definitely belongs here - I should have mentioned before, as you did allude to this some time ago.
The point of putting these maps together is to try to tell the story of modern territory of Palestine in pictures. If we leave out the first picture, we leave out the fact that the boundary line of Mandate Palestine itself was agreed and negotiated between the British and the ZO. The first box compares the agreed boundaries of Mandatory Palestine against the original Anglo-French proposal and original ZO proposal. It shows that the borders of Palestine were in effect created out of thin air as a negotiated halfway position between the British and the ZO, and in doing so contextualizes the starting point for the whole story.
Other starting points which could be considered include the pre-WWI boundaries of the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem (also ofter referred to as Palestine at the time), but to my mind that is less relevant and more problematically the boundaries of the Mutasarrifate moved around a number of times between 1870 and 1917.
I guess it comes down to what you think this template is intended to achieve.
Oncenawhile (talk) 17:39, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Majorities and ownership, box 2[edit]

Re this diff replacing Jewish-majority land writing in edit summary (these areas show tracts owned by Jews - can we also have a map showing the areas in 1947 owned by local (as opposed to foreign) Arabs?) Is there a source that specifies this, since there's a difference between how many people live in an area and how many own land there.

As for local vs. foreign Arab ownership, I think we need a good source on this since there had been so many complicated issues, especially Ottoman Empire land conquests of indigenously owned land, making original owners pay rent for centuries. And of course communal related land ownership issues. So another good place to get sources before changing things. User:Carolmooredc 15:41, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

It's originally from here: File:Jewish_settlements_1947.png, and before that from the CIA 1973 Atlas. I would note that whoever wrote the CIA atlas is clearly extremely biased given the ancient maps they placed at the beginning which seem intended to imply continuity (plus the dates for the Hasmonean map they have shown are totally incorrect).
I'm going to see if I can find where the original data comes from. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:48, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
OK, so it would seem the info came from Village statistics 1945. An institution must have taken the detailed land data by village and turned it in to a map. So the remaining question is, which organisation actually produced the map originally, assuming it was not the CIA? Oncenawhile (talk) 13:24, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm on vacation and in that mode can't properly respond. We'll see if others do in the future. I'll be back. User:Carolmooredc 16:19, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I've seen this kind of map comparisons before. Any accompanying text should clarify, however, that the maps in juxtaposition don't form an apples-to-apples comparison since the illustrated areas aren't the same, e.g. all of the West Bank is still occupied Palestinian territory even if the Palestinians have been pushed into enclaves within this territory. Similarly, before 1948 the Jewish-owned areas were just that, not areas of a Jewish state. --Dailycare (talk) 17:07, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The map of land ownership clearly has to show Palestinian Arab land ownership, otherwise it may imply that only Jews owned land, with no Arab land ownership in Mandatory Palestine (which is misleading).Greyshark09 (talk) 20:34, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

The map is clearly misleading and incorrect. Beside this it seems that its source is questionable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.178.57.153 (talk) 20:43, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
Having looked around for a few more hours, I am now beginning to think that rather than "ownership", this map represents "Jewish controlled zones" at the beginning of the 1947-48 civil war. See the source description in French at File:Zones juives 1dec47 + relief.GIF. Does anyone have access to the English version of that Ilan Pappe book? It may refer to the original primary source there. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:31, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Copying from Talk:United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine:

I have found another similar map with a primary source, albeit 15 years older here (the next page has a similar map from 1944 but refers to a secondary source). The primary source for the 1929 map is the Shaw Report, and the table of contents of the Shaw Report that was kindly sent to me some time ago confirms this (although unfortunately the file does not actually include the images). I wonder whether future commissions included updated versions of the map - perhaps the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry? Oncenawhile (talk) 06:44, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Yes, the Shaw Report has two such maps. One is called "Jewish Lands and Settlements in Palestine" and the other is "Map of Palestine indicating distribution and size of Jewish Land Holdings". I have them. Zerotalk 09:53, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
As for Stein's book, I had looked there but obviously not carefully enough. On pages 209 and 210 there are maps "Registered Land in Jewish Possession, 1930" and "Registered Land in Jewish Possession, 1944". Given that Stein is acknowledged as an expert on the subject, we can use these. At first glance I don't see a source given by Stein, but he refers to the British cadastral surveys that would have had such data. Zerotalk 10:03, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

This is now resolved, thanks to excellent work from Zero - see File:Palestine Index to Villages and Settlements, showing Jewish-owned Land 31 March 1945.jpg. Oncenawhile (talk) 08:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Issues with this picture December 2013[edit]

The series of maps is extremely misleading and should be considered as nothing but political propaganda, and has no place on Wikipedia. It shows privately owned land by Jews and not privately owned land by the Arab inhabitants of the British Mandate of Palestine. In the map representing 1948-1967 it shows the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in green, although the land was not under Palestinian sovereignty but under Jordanian and Egyptian one. The transition from this map to the last map makes it seem as if the Palestinians lost sovereignty, but in fact they gained sovereignty - this is the first time that the green areas represent an ACTUAL SOVEREIGNTY by Palestinians (and not a proposal for sovereignty). The map should be completely removed or be replaced by a series of maps clarifying issues of ownership and sovereignty in the land. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.120.140.226 (talk) 08:41, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Hmm. Have you ever edited wikipedia before - either with other IPs or with a user account? I feel like I recognize the style of your comment...
Either way, you are reading "sovereignty" into these maps - that is a technical status which is not mentioned and has no need to be used here. The point of these maps is to provide a simple understanding for the layman. Focusing on sovereignty appears to be unnecessarily narrow in scope. It is not clear that the PNA has real sovereignty over Oslo A+B anyway.
Secondly, it is a ridiculous suggestion that the current status of "Palestinian-controlled" land is better than ever, seemingly implying the Palestinians should be grateful to Israel for what they were given at Oslo. That is frankly one of the most extreme-right-wing suggestions on this topic I have ever heard made in a serious tone of voice.
Oncenawhile (talk) 21:42, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

"State lands" in Jewish ownership map[edit]

IP 46 made an additional edit stating that the "vast majority" of non-Jewish-owned land was actually state land.

This subchaper "The extent of state land" in State Lands and Rural Development in Mandatory Palestine, 1920-1948 by Warwick Tyler, shows that that statement is false.

As does this map File:Palestine Land ownership by sub-district (1945).jpg used by the UN in 1947.

Anyway, as explained by Tyler, the issue of state lands was constantly disputed, highly political and never properly finalised.

Oncenawhile (talk) 22:30, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

This template is confusing because it combines different unrelated (and irrelevant) partition plans, a map with Jewish-owned land, a never implemented third partition plan, and finally two maps showing land in use by Palestinians. Comparing apples and pears is not usefull.
At first glance, the IP above has a point by saying that the second map shows Jewish privately-owned land, but not Arab privately-owned land. This is also comparing apples and pears. The Palestinians had a combination of privately-owned land, collectively-owned land and stateland under Jordanian sovereignty (green color). The dirty big lie is, that Israel denies the former Palestinian use of the land, including by Bedouin. The Palestinian-used land included collectively-owned land and stateland, including uncultivated land we now call nature (reserve). The dirty big lie is also that Israel uses the term stateland to rename the Palestinian land grabbed for Jews-only use.
My advice is to delete this template. --Wickey-nl (talk) 14:17, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Suggested changes[edit]

  • Currently, the entire span of time between 1967 and 1993 is unrepresented in this template. I think it would be beneficial to add another image (or images) between the 1948-1967 image and the 1993-current image, showing the region during the intervening period.
  • In the 1948-1967 image, the Jordanian- and Egyptian-occupied territories are shown in green, the color used elsewhere to represent Palestinian areas, unlike Israeli-occupied areas, which are shown in white in these images. I assume that the areas occupied by Egypt and Jordan weren't colored white in order to distinguish their political alignment toward the Palestinians? If this is the case, then perhaps the countries of Jordan and Egypt and their occupied areas should be shown in different, pale/faded shades of green in the various maps. If this is not the case, then maybe the 1948-1967 map could be changed to show both occupied areas in white.
  • If I understand correctly, the Gaza Strip hasn't been under the administration of the Palestinian National Authority since the Hamas takeover in 2007. If this is correct, then I think another map should be added to the end, perhaps showing Gaza in a different shade of green.

Thoughts? --Yair rand (talk) 21:55, 17 February 2014 (UTC)