Template talk:Professional Baseball

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Other notable leagues[edit]

There are several other notable summer leagues around the world. Should these be added to the template, and if so, how?

Rolando 23:31, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Added now. FJM 13:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Let's not forget Cuban National Series. Probably more important than the other 5.--DaveOinSF 14:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Added to Winter Leagues section (though it's "amateur", strictly speaking). Rolando (talk) 19:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The league is amateur.. it therefore should not be listed under "professional baseball"Spanneraol (talk) 19:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

What constitutes a "notable" defunct league?[edit]

I recently added all defunct major leagues to this list -- National Associat.on (1871-75), Union Association (1884), and Players League (1890) -- to the two that were already on the list (American Association and Federal League). Since then, two defunct minor leagues have been added to the list.

The question I have is this: are the two defunct minor leagues (the Eastern Carolina League and the Virginia League) considered "Notable" for the purposes of this template, or should we expand the categories?

There could be "Defunct Major Leagues", "Defunct Minor Leagues", "Defunct leagues -- Other", or some other scheme.

The Negro Leagues are in reality several (at least six) distinct leagues, all of them (obviously) defunct, and might belong in their own category with each individual league listed; foreign (non-American) baseball leagues could have their own category, minor leagues another, etc.

Should this template be expanded? Should we restrict what goes into "Notable defunct leagues"? Should we leave well enough alone? --- Couillaud 18:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

There are dozens of defunct minor leagues. If all were added to the template, it would become unmanageably large. My opinion is that defunct minor leagues should not be regarded as sufficiently "notable" to be included on the template, and that the link to Negro Leagues should remain as a single link. BRMo 03:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed Arnabdas (talk) 19:18, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

This is bigger than Wrigley Field[edit]

Any chance this should be cut down? --Howard the Duck 12:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding size[edit]

Please direct discussion here.--Borgardetalk 10:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


Claxton Shield[edit]

Where does the Claxton Shield fit into this template? It's obviously not a major league but I can't decide whether to put it in the 'minor leagues' or with 'other leagues'. Any thoughts? Bongomanrae 13:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

  • From reading the article on it, the Claxton Shield seems to be some sort of tournament rather than a fullfledged league. Probably shouldn't be included. Spanneraol 14:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Winter leagues - affiliated or independent?[edit]

Currently the template shows the Venezuelan Professional Baseball League as affiliated, but the Dominican Winter Baseball League and the Liga Mexicana del Pacífico are shown as independent. My understanding had been that all three leagues were affiliated with Major League Baseball. Although I haven't found a source that clearly says they're affiliated, strong circumstantial evidence is the fact that all three leagues (along with the Arizona Fall League and Hawaii Winter Baseball) are featured on the MLB Website [1] and that MLB and affiliated minor league players play in all three leagues. Is there any contrary evidence suggesting that they are actually independent? BRMo (talk) 00:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

"Major"[edit]

What exactly defines an international league as major? Why is Taiwan considered Major, but not China? Is there some relationship between MLB and these international leagues? -- χγʒ͡ʒγʋᾳ (talk) 19:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Template should be restructured, i.e. "Major"[edit]

What constitutes Major? For example, NPB dominates the Asia region, and the CPBL is of a lower standard. So should it be renamed to something like, "Top-level international leagues". Or something to indicate the leagues are the top in that area? If you have any suggestions, please post them.--Borgardetalk 09:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, according to Major North American professional sports leagues, "Major professional sports league, or simply major league, is the term used in North America to refer to the highest professional division in any team sport." I would extrapolate that any league purported to to be "major" should not be shown to be consistently bettered by any other league in its sport. If all the best players in the sport go to one of the leagues eventually, then that is the major league of that sport. By this definition, only two professional baseball organizations could even make a claim to be major: MLB (no doubt), and Nippon Professional Baseball (which still hosts most of the best players in Asia). Japan may or may not be of similar quality to MLB (my guess is that it would be somewhere around the AAAA classification of the old Pacific Coast League), and this will not be really known unless there is significant competition between MLB and NPB clubs, but I think most can see a big gulf in quality between MLB/Japan and all other leagues.
Another way we could go about this is finding any recognition amongst the leagues. Major leagues tend to agree not to pillage each other's talent, and I believe MLB and NPB have such a formal agreement. I'm not sure about the other leagues. I have a feeling that MLB consciously tries to avoid labeling any foreign league as either major or minor.
I might support diving this template into two sections: one for Asia, and one for the Americas (and perhaps a third for Other, that is, Europe, Australia, etc.). In baseball, the two hemispheres have little mixing, but there are significant relationships within each hemisphere. Then we could avoid having to impose the Western concepts of Major league, AAA league, etc., onto Asian baseball. I think I'll begin a test of this concept at Template:Professional Baseball/Regional. Any help/ideas are much appreciated. -- χγʒ͡ʒγʋᾳ (talk) 23:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
That test template you've made looks good. I'd support something like that, I think it's better to group regionally than try to define quality wise. Thanks for having a look. --Borgardetalk 08:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Hawaii: Oceania or Americas[edit]

Last October User:Jcmenal moved the (now-defunct) Hawaii Winter Baseball link in the template from the Americas section to the Oceania section, on the grounds that "Hawaii is not located in the Americas". On two separate occasions, my self and another user have reverted that change, on the grounds that as a US state, Hawaii has no separate international presence in baseball, and should be grouped with other US-based leagues. On both occasions, Jcmenal has reverted those changes. I wanted to get others' input on this and see where they believe the Hawaii link should be located.

For myself, I believe that Hawaii, being a full US state, with no distinct citizenship, should be with other US-based leagues. Hawaii is not merely an overseas territory that boasts its own national teams, but a full part of the US. All Hawaiian citizens are US citizens, and are free to move anywhere in the US, and vice-versa. And, specifically here, Hawaii Winter Baseball was a Major League Baseball-funded league, akin to the Arizona Fall League. I don't believe separating the two is justified. oknazevad (talk) 22:14, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on facts, and no one is discussing what you believe, is clear that Hawaii is an US State and all the Hawaiians are US citizens, however, the Hawaiians are Polynesians and not North Americans. A similar case occurs with the French Departments of Martinique, Guadeloupe, French Guiana and Reunion, while all the citizens of such regions are French citizens, but the are not Europeans.Jcmenal (talk) 06:17, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Actually, a great many Hawaiian residents are white. Polynesian is an ethnic group, of which Native Hawaiians are members, but to say all Hawaiian residents are Polynesian simply tells me you don't know much about the 50th state. And that is the real reason for putting it in the North America section. A baseball league based in a US state belongs with all other leagues based in US states. As I said, there's no separate presence for Hawaii in international baseball, or any sport for that matter. To separate Hawaii from the rest of the US shows a disregard for human and political geography, which is truly a more determining factor in sporting contexts. (Oh, and if French Guiana isn't considered politically part of Europe, why is it depicted as part of the maps on Euro notes?)oknazevad (talk) 10:40, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
This is not a political issue, its geographical. While the Hawaiian league is based in a US State, such league is played in another continent. As example, the French, British and Dutch territories in the Americas have national sport teams and different sports leagues, such leagues are not considered Europeans.Jcmenal (talk) 16:41, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
And Hawaii does not have any separate national sports teams. That's what you fail to understand! Yes, the Hawaiian Winter League was entirely in Hawaii. The Arizona Fall League is entirely within Arizona. And yes, they are exactly comparable, as they serve the exact same purpose, and had the exact same affiliations. The two belong in the same part of the navbox.oknazevad (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
No matter the affiliation, Arizona is in the Americas, Hawaii is not.Jcmenal (talk) 16:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
I do understand, yourself wrote that the Hawaiian Winter League was entirely played in Hawaii, no one is arguing if the Hawaiian Winter League has a different or similar format than other winter leagues in other US States. The point here is that you guys are putting Hawaii in the continental zone of the Americas, and is world known that Hawaii is not located in North America, nor in South America, nor in Central America, and nor even in the insular region of the Caribbean. Again and by your own words, the entirely Hawaiian Winter League was played in Oceania.Jcmenal (talk) 19:07, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
The point here is that a categorization based purely on physical geography is a mistake, as it doesn't account for human geography, or geopolitics, both of which are far more important when dealing with the human endeavour that is sports. Here's another way to put it. Flights from the continental US to Hawaii are considered domestic flights. That describes the reality of the American experience when dealing with Hawaii. oknazevad (talk) 19:32, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Hello??, the main categorization is by continental zones, you should modify that categorization to fit Hawaii. Of course is considered a domestic flight, however, a flight from any other US State to Hawaii doesnt change the location of Hawaii. In my case, Hawaii is closer to my city than other cities of my country, even Canada is closer than Mexico City; Take note of this, a 30 mins flight from Tijuana to Los Angeles is an international flight, but a 6 hrs flight from Los Angeles to Chicago is a domestic flight.Jcmenal (talk) 19:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
Exactly. For both the flight, and for baseball, borders trump the physical geography. You've made my point for me.oknazevad (talk) 20:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree with User:Jcmenal—the template classifies teams by geography, not by nation. Geographically, Hawaii is part of Oceania, not the Americas. BRMo (talk) 00:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Technically that might be correct, but when you go on vacation to Hawaii, you do not say "I am going to Asia-Pac". Tourist guides in bookstores are in the US/America section. When looking for hotel reviews in Hawaii, are not checking the "Oceania" section. Same with baseball teams. Most readers would not find this useful, as virtually every other guide puts this in the US/Americas. In human geography, this is clearly in the Americas. Miden (talk) 00:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
That's funny - I thought the reason people went on vacation to Hawaii was to visit tropical Pacific Islands! :-) Seriously, if the bookstore has a "USA" section, then it's classifying travel books by nation. The template refers to geography, not nations, so I think Hawaii should be classified accordingly. BRMo (talk) 00:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
But baseball is organized at the national level, so we should do the same here.oknazevad (talk) 01:25, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that "baseball is organized at the national level," but at least five of the leagues shown on the template (the American League, Northwest League, Can-Am League, Golden Baseball League, and Northern League) operate franchises in more than one country. Also, several other leagues (the National League, International League, Pacific Coast League) formerly operated internationally. Regardless, this template is organized geographically rather than nationally, so unless the template is redesigned we should follow the geographic classifications. BRMo (talk) 04:20, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
The main categorization is by continent, you guys should change the categorization by country, in other continental templates Hawaii is grouped under the follow:
1 Oceania
1.1 United States
1.1.1 Hawaii
1.1.2 Guam

Jcmenal (talk) 02:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Surely Hawaii's closer to mainland USA than it is to the rest of Oceania - if it's actually considered to be part of Oceania, and as a resident of Oceania I've never thought of it that way - and it makes more sense to have a sub-national competition grouped with like entities from the same nation. If it had included teams from other nations in the Pacific, particularly the southern/south-western part thereof, yeah maybe include it in Oceania, but not from what I've read of it in its article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Afaber012 (talkcontribs)
Again, no one here is discussing where Hawaii is located, the point is that this template is ordered by continent, no matter if they are belonging to a country or it they are affiliated to other national associations; as example the French Football Federation (i.e. 2010-2011 French football Cup season) is the governing body of the French football which includes France herself, and as well as the overseas departments and territories (Guadeloupe, French Guyana, Martinique, Saint Martin, Mayotte, New Caledonia, French Polynesia, and Réunion), beside France You wont see the leagues of any of this territories in an European template, 2 are included in Oceanian templates, 2 are included in African templates, and last 4 are included in American templates, namely CONCACAF; French Guiana clearly a South American entity, due its membership is included in the CONCACAF template, but not in a North American template. Hawaii league could been affiliated to the US league system, but as the French overseas departments is not a North/Central/South American entity; this league affiliated or not to the US system does not belong to the Americas.Jcmenal (talk) 16:41, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
If the template is ordered by continent, then why aren't considering Wikipedia's own definition of Oceania, which doesn't always include Hawaii? Wikipedia's article on continents doesn't count Oceania either! It only counts Australia, which is widely recognized as the seventh, smallest continent. Hawaii isn't always recognized as part of Oceania, and Oceania isn't widely recognized as part of Australia, so put Hawaii where it belongs: with the continent in which its governing body lies. — KV5Talk • 00:25, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article says, "Hawaii is the northern corner of the Polynesian Triangle and is generally included in Oceania, though politically it is part of the United States." Other definitions also generally include Hawaii; for example, Merriam-Webster describes Oceania as "the lands of the central and S Pacific including Micronesia, Melanesia, Polynesia (including New Zealand), often Australia, & sometimes the Malay archipelago," and describes Polynesia as "the islands of the central & S Pacific including Hawaii..." Oceania isn't a continent, but it is recognized as a geographic area by the United Nations. Given the geographic classification used in the template, I think it would be incorrect to classify Hawaii in the Americas. BRMo (talk) 03:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Depends on what you consider "the Americas". Why this is organized by continent and not by country to begin with is beyond me. — KV5Talk • 11:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Well, in English the word "America" may refer to the nation or the continents, but the word "Americas" refer to both continents exlcuding the U.S. Jcmenal (talk) 15:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm aware of that. I do speak the language. But there is nuance to using the word "America" in any form. It's a vague gray area. — KV5Talk • 17:00, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball#Template: Professional Baseball

Should have done this a while ago.
There's been a long-standing dispute at this about where to categorize the now-defunct Hawaii Winter Baseball, namely whether it belongs in the Oceania section based on purely geographic concerns, or in the Americas section as it was Major League Baseball affiliated. Input welcome.oknazevad (talk) 00:12, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The template is organized geographically by continent. Geographically, Hawaii is not part of North America, it is part of Oceania. BRMo (talk) 03:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Many winter leagues are Major League Baseball affiliated. Hawaii should be sorted into it's geographic location, Oceania. JRA_WestyQld2 Talk 08:31, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Sorry if I didn't make this clear. Please bring all comments to the template talk page, where the discussion is ongoing. oknazevad (talk) 13:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Thats what I said, the template is ordered by geographic location, while it belongs to the United States of America, Hawaii is outside the Americas. Many leagues are affiliated to the MLB, no matter where in the world are located. Jcmenal (talk) 15:38, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

By organizing this in the way it is organized, the Hawaiian league should go in the Oceania section. As Jcmenal said, using "Americas" specifies the continent(s) rather than the country. Hawaii is not part of North America. Now, if the template were to be reorganized to have separate sections for "US & Canada" and "Central & South America", then you could put the Hawaiian league in the first section, but as it stands it must be in Oceania. -Dewelar (talk) 16:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

California Winter League (2009–)[edit]

Should the California Winter League (2009–) be listed in this template? They seem more like a player camp, as player has to pay to play. Professional leagues pay it's players.

I believe this league/camp should be removed from this list, but will defer to other more knowledgeable contributors.

Similarly, can such criteria be applied to any other leagues listed here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miden (talkcontribs) 14:56, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like it should be removed, if the pay-to-play factor is true.
I also wonder about some of the European leagues. Some, like the British league, seems more like an amature, or at best semi-pro, setup. Now that may be the result of those leagues operating on a European model of clubs akin to Euro soccer leagues, but they warran further investigation, I think.oknazevad (talk) 19:53, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Veracruz Winter League[edit]

I added it, but someone deleted it. It is real, you can find it on the Spanish Wikipedia and on the baseballhistory.wikia.com wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.224.117.20 (talk) 04:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

(Neither if which are really reliable sources.) If you can whip up a stubby article on it for the English Wikipedia, with a reliable source, it'll be all good. I know nothing about the league to write it myself. oknazevad (talk) 04:49, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Minor Mexican Leagues[edit]

The minor mexican leagues which have just been added to the template should either be removed or placed in a different category. They are not MLB affiliated leagues and their status is unclear by the sourcing provided on their pages.Spanneraol (talk) 13:56, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Asian Leagues are categorized by country. Could we categorize North American Leagues them by country? But then some are US/Canada, US/Mexico, just US, just Mexico, or US/Canada/Mexico.

Or we could make it (the Americas section) like this:

  • Major: American, National,
  • AAA: International, Mexican, Pacific Coast,
  • AA: Eastern, Southern, Texas,
  • Advanced A: California, Carolina, Florida State,
  • A: Midwest, South Atlantic,
  • Short-season A: New York-Penn, Northwest,
  • Advanced Rookie: Appalachian, Pioneer,
  • Rookie: Arizona, Dominican Summer, Gulf Coast, Venezuelan Summer,
  • Mexican League Affiliates: (subsection)
  • AA: Northern Mexico League
  • Advanced A: Northwestern Mexico League
  • A: Liga Clase "A" (Spring/Summer Academy)
  • Independent:
  • American Association, Atlantic, Canadian-American Association (should be Can-Am league, that's an unofficial name), Frontier, Golden, Northern, Pecos, United,
  • Winter Leagues:
  • Affiliated: Arizona Fall, Dominican Winter, Liga Paralela (Venezuelan Winter and MLB affiliate), Mexican Pacific, Venezuelan Winter,
  • Mexican League Affiliated: Liga Rookie Invierno (Winter Academy)
  • Independent: Arizona Winter, Colombian Winter, Nicaraguan Winter, Puerto Rico Winter, Veracruz Winter,

How's that?

The Tabasco League is the only one I think may be irrelevant. I'm going to look more into that, since it is the only one that lacks substantial information. And the Academies are linked to by the Mexican League site (as Academia). Jntg4Games (talk) 20:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll move Liga Paralela to the Winter Leagues section now, as it is a Winter League, but not listed as one. Jntg4Games (talk) 20:29, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

After several tries, I got it in a new section. However, now it has too wide of frames (but for some reason excepting Oceania as far as the wide frames). Is there a way to fix this? Jntg4Games (talk) 21:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I removed the Tabasco League, I decided that since no official site could be found, it was too obscure. Jntg4Games (talk) 21:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

European Leagues[edit]

I have done some research and: Amateur: Division Elite: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championnat_de_France_de_baseball_%C3%89lite (see infobox) Irish baseball league: http://irishbaseballseason.blogspot.com/2007/05/baseball-in-ireland-really-low-down-on.html British National League

Questionable: Bundesliga Division de Honor de Beisbol Elitserien

Professional: Italian Baseball League Honkbal Hoofdklasse

I don't want to remove the amateur ones without discussion first. And anyone know about the questionable ones? Jntg4Games (talk) 21:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

GBL Affiliates[edit]

Should the Arizona Winter League be listed as independent? it is affiliated with the Golden baseball League, so its affiliated with an independent, but is not independent itself. The GBL also has another league like the Winter League in the Summer, called the Arizona Summer League. But that isn't even listed here. Jntg4Games (talk) 22:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Stop Top Jim[edit]

This guy is trying to get basically every independent baseball league deleted, even the Pecos League, which we all know if notable. Jntg4Games (talk) 00:16, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

This issue is being discussed over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball#Independent Baseball: HELP. Top Jim (talk) 01:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Baseball Philippines[edit]

I'm removing it. It is clearly amateur and has no claim of professional status. It is even incorporated into the "Philippine Amateur Baseball Association". Jntg4Games (talk) 14:23, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Defunct Leagues[edit]

I'm going to remove them altogether unless someone steps up and says not too... they don't seem necessary, they are far from a complete list, and the table is a little screwed up from having so many categories (Australia and defunct Oceania side-tabs don't stretch as far as others). Deleting for now... if anybody disagrees with me just reply and state your case and we can re-add them. Jntg4Games (talk) 02:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not opposed, but it may make sense to change the name of this navbox to "Current Professional Baseball Leagues" then, so it's scope becomes clearer. Also, be sure to remove the navbox from articles where it no longer applies, so these don't get reinserted en masse.
Also, I restored the distinct links to the National League, American League, Central League and Pacific League. While the AL and NL are no longer distinct legal entities, the historical nature as such, along with simple convenience, leads mento believe they should be there. As for the CL and PL, they do remain distinct legal entities, and are not merged into NPB the same way as the NL and AL. So I restored those links as well. oknazevad (talk) 13:40, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I'll remove it from the articles of defunct leagues. Jntg4Games (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I agree with this. The Negro Leagues are a major part of baseball in North America as well as American history. I'm OK with a standard, but not mentioning them, or the old American Association for that matter, seems to not provide the total picture of professional baseball throughout the ages. Just because the list isn't complete doesn't mean we take out the ones who we know exist. Arnabdas (talk) 15:15, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
I can see what you're saying here. That's why I think the template needs a bit of a rename. If the purpose is to list current leagues, it should say so. But if giving a (more) complete historical picture is desirable, than including significant historical leagues is necessary. I'm a bit conflicted, though, as including all historical leagues would quickly make this template bloated and unwieldy, while choosing only some historical leagues would inherently require some criteria that could easily slip into original research. I hole others weigh in, as it is something that needs to be discussed. oknazevad (talk) 12:47, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia in itself is supposed to have articles that are notable. If there is an article about a league, it is obviously notable and thus should be included. If the notability of a league that did not last is in question then that league would not have an article and thus would not be linked in the template anyway because there would be nothing to link to. 208.63.124.4 (talk) 13:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
I think the approach should be all notable MAJOR leagues for the highest level of baseball in the past. Thus the American Association and Negro Leagues should be considered. If we keep the minor leagues of today, that would be fine as those are current. Thus, the new defunct section could be called "Defunct Major Leagues" or something like that. Arnabdas (talk) 14:21, 12 March 2012 (UTC)