Template talk:Project Chanology protests, February 10, 2008

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Alphabetical order[edit]

This template should be reordered so that there is only one city listed per line, and so that they are in alphabetical order, by name of city. Cirt (talk) 19:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

  • There were 35 secondary sources, now there are only 10. What did you do with the rest of them, and why did you remove properly sourced cities?Z00r (talk) 20:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
    • I did not, must've been someone else. Cirt (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Removal of table of protest sites[edit]

I object to the removal of the table of protest sites from Project Chanology and would like a reasoned explanation as to why you are removing it beyond the generic "unencyclopedic" comment. Are you removing it becuse of the content, or the format, the fact that much of it is not cited, or something else?

  • With respect to content: A summary of the number of protesters at each city adds greatly to the article and allows the reader to see at a glance what was happening where. That is one of the biggest questions any reader will ask when reading this article, and only listing a few cities is really disingenuous as this happened everywhere. Such a listing of all sites is done in paragraph form in other protest wikipedia pages such as February_15,_2003_anti-war_protest.
  • With respect to format: since there were over 100 protest sites, if they were written in paragraph form the article would quickly become an unreadable mess.
  • With respect to citations:
    • First, about 1/3 of the cities were already cited, and you have removed those. You also removed reliable sources from cities that were kept, such as the Cleveland Leader (A branch of The Plain Dealer) which said that London had 500-1000 protesters.
    • Second, the section was in a state of being improved - people were "filling in the blank", as is consistent with the de facto way that wikipedia pages tend to evolve over time. I would like to point out that before the table was created, there were only a few sources on protest numbers, but in a few hours after creating the table that number shot up dramatically (though I had a lot to do with that, it spurred several other editors to add secondary sources). In another few weeks, if sources haven't been found, then yes, remove those uncited cities, but until then leave it.
    • Third, while the subject is controvertial, the number of protesters at a particular site is not. Thus more time should be given to sourcing this section.Z00r (talk) 21:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Could someone please add a min of 40 and a max of 120 to the Portland, Oregon part of the table? Those are healthy, reasonable numbers verifiable in photography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.27.123.55 (talk) 02:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Response

Ayla (talk · contribs) responded to you at Talk:Project Chanology. Ayla (talk · contribs) has asked for some time and WP:AGF in order to work on the template and work some references/cities/entries back into it. Cirt (talk) 21:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Much, much better[edit]

This table is already looking much, much better and very, very well sourced to great secondary WP:RS/WP:V sources - thanks to the great work by Ayla (talk · contribs). Thank you. Cirt (talk) 22:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks :-) I'm done with the template for now, just a few posts to this talk page left. Ayla (talk) 23:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It looks quite good. SomeNonaSaint (talk) 09:21, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Omitted references[edit]

I worked using this version of the table from the Project Chanology article. I tried to keep all the valid references (including two which I had to run through translators to understand). Here is a full list of the references I omitted (unless any have escaped me), and my rationale behind them.

This link seems to work for me, can someone else confirm: [3]Z00r (talk) 00:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
They charge to read the article via the newspaper website. I think we should keep it but find a better way to cite it than llinking to the cache.Z00r (talk) 00:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Added following discussion below. Ayla (talk) 23:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I was initially going to omit the Cleveland Leader reference on grounds that London already has three references; however, since you mentioned it, I am going to include it in good faith. Ayla (talk) 23:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Z00r: Regarding your second point (about editors "filling in the blank") – unfortunately, that approach is usually avoided in controversial or contentious articles. A case I remember encountering was on the List of most popular given names article where, following its AfD nomination, most editors have adopted a "revert on sight" approach to unsourced additions or alterations. Permitting unsourced entries, even temporarily, opens up the possibility for malicious users to make deliberately incorrect additions so as to destroy the table's credibility. Ayla (talk) 00:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
That's too bad. Hopefully the WP community will shift its values away from this in time, as the "fill in the blank" method is (was?) a great asset to building many many articles.Z00r (talk) 01:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I sympathize with your position, and for most articles, I would share your inclusionist stance. However, this is one of the "controversial or contentious" exceptions. I am going to enforce the referenced-additions-only criterion for now; however, I will step back if consensus demands otherwise. Ayla (talk) 02:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Good idea with the footer linking to the template page here.Z00r (talk) 03:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I figured newcomers might not be acquainted with how to interpret the {{Project Chanology protests, February 10 2008}} template syntax to get to this page, and could use a direct link. Ayla (talk) 03:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the direct link - quite helpful. 121.44.227.79 (talk) 02:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorting[edit]

Expanding what I have stated in the edit summaries: Since the table title (presently "Protest Sites - February 10 2008") is specified as a column header, a table-within-table approach had to be used in order to make the (inner) columns sortable. The method is explained at Help:Collapsing, Sortable collapsible table. Additionally, I also took the liberty of introducing the "Minimum" column for sorting by protester quantity; I assume that most editors would not be familiar with the hidden sortkey approach and involuntarily break it when adding new entries. Ayla (talk) 00:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

N/A ?[edit]

Not really sure if this is helpful, can we try to get some references that cite how many people were there? Cirt (talk) 18:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I was originally avoiding them; however, there are many valid secondary sources which do not give figures, but which are worth noting. My opinion is that the table should capture the international turnout and coverage of the event, rather than the figures per se. Nonetheless, I am trying to find at least one source with figures for each city. Re the N/A notation... do you think it would be more presentable as a discrete centred period (•) – followed by the reference – instead of the "N/A" text? Ayla (talk) 18:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd suggest in those cases perhaps putting the cite next to the name of the city, and leaving that other box blank. Cirt (talk) 18:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
My reservation is out of consistency. Giving some sources next to the city name implies that they are 'attached' to the protest in that city, whilst the others would be 'attached' to just the quoted figure. This might give the impression that the former are more significant than the latter. I would prefer if it were unambiguous that all sources are attached to the protest in general (and, if available, a specific quoted figure in addition). A compromise would be to reference sources which provide a figure both after the city name and after the figure; the others would be referenced after the city name only. However, this might be a bit of an overkill. Ayla (talk) 19:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Eh, either way. I defer to your judgment, the current way looks okay. Cirt (talk) 19:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Could you please give a quick look at the first six entries and give me your opinion about the new reference attachments? Should I proceed with changing the rest, or would you prefer it the way it was previously? Personally, I think I prefer the new style, but I would like to hear your view first. Ayla (talk) 01:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Nah, I liked your other version better. Cirt (talk) 17:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, I'll revert for now. Ayla (talk) 17:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

Are YouTube recordings of TV news reports acceptable as a reference? The sources are reliable and verifiable, but I think it's a copyright violation (on the part of the uploader) unless explicit permission was given from the news publisher. Ayla (talk) 18:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you can cite the broadcast date, news network, newscaster, name of TV segment itself, but without the actual external link. Cirt (talk) 19:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good. Ayla (talk) 19:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Could you do the same thing for the Farmington Hills source? (The one we only have the google cache of) I would do this myself, except I don't really understand how your tables work and I think I would break it.Z00r (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Sure. I'll leave the Google cache URL as a comment (invisible). Ayla (talk) 22:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Completed importation of sources from Wikinews international report: "Anonymous" holds anti-Scientology protests worldwide. Ayla (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Incredible work, great job. Cirt (talk) 23:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! Ayla (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a youtube video of a NBC news clip which states 200 people for the Austin protest. source202.161.71.161 (talk) 09:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

ABC? Channel 6? Coverage of Columbus, Ohio Protest. youtube.com - no mention of protest size. 202.161.71.161 (talk) 09:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC) Central News coverage of Birmingham, UK Protest. youtube.com - no mention of protest size 202.161.71.161 (talk) 09:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC) German article that describes protest in Berlin, Duesseldorf, and Hamburg, Germany (from my translation anyway) sueddeutsche.de 202.161.71.161 (talk) 09:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Ayla (talk) 15:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Other sources mentioned in the Project Chanology talk page:

Ayla (talk) 16:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Additionally:

Ayla (talk) 00:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

More:

202.161.71.161 (talk) 08:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, plenty of cities which we did not have previously. I'll get down to it tonight or tomorrow. Please add any others (especially new cities) you might encounter. Ayla (talk) 11:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Great listing – all sources have been incorporated. Could you please confirm that the protest covered in the Ka Leo O Hawaii source took place in Honolulu? Oahu is an island, not a city or state. Chicago's WGN-TV's anchor looks like Jackie Bange, could someone confirm? Ayla (talk) 21:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, we will probably have to leave the Ka Leo source out, because all it says is "Chinatown". PartyvanWIKI lists Honolulu, but its not a valid source. However, I do have a source for Philadelphia, which reports 40-50 protesters. source 202.161.71.161 (talk) 01:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think we need to remove the Ka Leo source, since there is only one Church of Scientology in Hawaii, and it's located at 1159 Fort Street Mall, Honolulu, HI, 96813. The Honolulu article states that it has a Chinatown under the Neighborhoods and special districts section. Furthermore, this article from chinatownhi.com confirms the existence of a "Fort Street Mall" within Honolulu's Chinatown. Thus, I think we have enough evidence to leave it.
Regarding the source you gave above: Isn't that for the protest in Pittsburgh? I've already included it in the template as so. There's a newscast source for Philadelphia (without a figure for the number of protectors) per this YouTube video (also mentioned above).
Ayla (talk) 02:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
You are right on both counts! 202.161.71.161 (talk) 03:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

New Sources[edit]

The last section was getting a little long.

  • Here is a source for Philadelphia, reporting 150 protestors (bottom page 2). Not sure if it meets WP:RS. source 202.161.71.161 (talk) 06:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
    • It is certainly acceptable strictly for the statistic verification. Cirt (talk) 15:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Article sounds rather biased against the church, but the figure looks factual. And The Triangle appears to be an established source. I'm including it for now. Ayla (talk) 19:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
        • That's why it's okay as a source, but just for the number. Cirt (talk) 19:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
More sources
  1. York students join Scientology protest
  2. Anonymous: Inside the world of Scientology

Cirt (talk) 15:59, 20 February 2008 (UTC).

Good find, we didn't have York before. The former source also gives a figure of 150 for Edinburgh, whilst the latter gives figures of 500 for London and Los Angeles. Do you think these should be added? The 500 for London matches with our sources and the 300–800 reported in Wikinews. We don't have any figures for Los Angeles; Wikinews gives "at least 250". I am hesitant about the Edinburgh figure, which deviates considerably from the 30 reported in The Scotsman, and does not fall within the 50–140 given by Wikinews. Ayla (talk) 17:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I think these additional sources should be added for the new statistics/variations. The reader will then be able to check each variation to the accompanying secondary sources. Cirt (talk) 17:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough, I'll add them tonight. Ayla (talk) 17:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you're fast on that york article! Good find. 121.44.227.79 (talk) 22:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

There are several other sources which we might have not yet included, available at the Partyvan Wiki, specifically under Raid Archive/2008-02-10 and Media Archive. Ayla (talk) 23:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Santa Cruz - 5 protestors121.44.227.79 (talk)

Added! Took me a while to find the publication date (ended up using the <pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:00:00 EST</pubDate> from here). Article also mentions the composition of Anonymous (Ebaumsworld.com, 4chan.org, 711chan.org), and could be used in the lead section of the Anonymous (group) article as well. Ayla (talk) 23:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Approximate number of protesters[edit]

On some of the cities, there are multiple sources, each one giving a different number of protesters; due to this variation, the values in the "protesters" column for some cities has changed from being one approximated number to being a set of numbers, varying greatly. I want to suggest that if there are multiple values for a city, the average value should be listed for the "protesters" column, while the min and max should be the lowest and highest values, accordingly. Of course, you would probably want to add a note underneath the table or by the column header saying that the numbers are averaged, approximate, whatever. Also, I think it might be a good idea to remove N/A from the values when another source gives a value. Even if there isn't another source, it might be good to try moving the citation to the location name, rather than the number of protesters, since the source is not giving number of protesters, but is rather giving general information on the protest in that city. This would also help when re-averaging, since you wouldn't have to look through the sources to check that they were all average. Any opinions, questions, suggestions, etc? Nuck Chorris (talk) 20:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Valid points. The second one was incidentally discussed in the N/A ? section above (for the "new" style, refer to the first seven entries in this version; note the absence of N/A). We had agreed to leave the citation positioning as is; however, I'm ready to change it if consensus favours otherwise. (Note that the N/A notation is explained through the table footer.) Regarding your first point: I would be against merging the multiple figures since that results in an information loss; readers might be interested in checking which particular source gave which figure, rather than having to check all sources for the city. A compromise would be to add another "Approximate" column; however, I think this might be misleading since some sources are clearly more reliable than others. A fair approximation would have to be weighted against the reliability of the source which, unfortunately, is very hard to express quantitatively. Ayla (talk) 21:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I see what you mean Nuck Chorris (talk) 23:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

March 15 Protests[edit]

So, apparently there will be more protests on March 15. Will there be another table created for those events? 121.44.227.79 (talk) 04:16, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that would be a good idea, if there are enough secondary sources for that. Cirt (talk) 04:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Insurgency Wiki – Project Chanology/Media Archive[edit]

Link: Media Archive

Ayla (talk) 13:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Ayla (talk) 21:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Ayla (talk) 19:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)