Template talk:R template index

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Template: R from move[edit]

This one gets used quite a bit. Either I'll move a page, or I'll come across page moves by other editors, and the REDIRECTS need Rcats. So I thought I'd add it to the bottom with the page-merge Rcats. If there are any others that you use a lot and feel they should be on this template, either add them yourself or discuss them here on this page.
 —  Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX )  02:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Explanation of UNDO[edit]

This date I had to undo an editor's good-faith edit. As cited above, this page was up for deletion, and the result was to keep it as is. Deleting by redirecting it is not an option. So please, editors, keep the spirit of the Tfd, and do not delete the format of this page. Or at the very least, discuss it here first.
 —  Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX )  18:56, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

Proposal[edit]

This page should be redirected to Wikipedia:Template messages/Redirect pages. I know this has been discussed before but the discussion never really went anywhere and people said it should be kept just because it's "helpful". Cross-namespace redirects are allowed to exist in certain circumstances so that is not an argument against redirecting this. The simple fact is that this page is just a copy of Wikipedia:Template messages/Redirect pages but with less templates. In what way is this page more helpful than the other? If anything, it's harmful because editors may find this page and pick one of the several templates listed here when a better one is available but isn't listed here. If this page is kept, I think the information should be expanded to include examples of when and when not to use certain templates – in other words, the content should be substantially different to Wikipedia:Template messages/Redirect pages. McLerristarr | Mclay1 17:05, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

How about we just slap {{disambiguation}} on here than cite the requirements to be minimalist and easy to use for keeping it? — Dispenser 22:26, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
I use this page almost everyday, because I'm always coming across redirects that need Rcats. This is a functional index as opposed to the alpha index at Wikipedia:Template messages/Redirect pages. And it houses the Rcats that are most often needed, the ones that I come back to time after time after time. When I come to this page, as I do very frequently, I do so to get the exact wording of an Rcat so I don't type it in wrong and then have to do it over. When I come to this page, if I remember that there might be a better Rcat that's not on this page, then I click over to the alpha index to look for the better Rcat. This is a necessary page just like it is. It has survived both a deletion discussion and a move discussion. At those discussions, several editors were involved, and the consensus was to leave this page as is. Please, my friends, let's just move on to better things, can't we?  — Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  14:07, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Those discussions were not particularly deep. I still don't think it's necessary to have a separate page for a slightly different order of the same list of templates. However, I now plan on expanding the information of this page at some point. McLerristarr | Mclay1 07:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I can see if there are some Rcats that you feel you will use often that you expand this page with them, and try to maintain the structural/functional basis of the page, if you would. Also, even though I'm not certain that the {{This is a redirect}} template is up to full utility, I've added it to the See also section, so editors can benefit from all of your hard work!  — Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  12:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Substitution cat[edit]

Mclay1, I like what you've done regarding examples. That will definitely help editors and alert them to other associated Rcats. I must disagree with you on one point, though. This template is an "index" template and is not meant to be transcluded nor substituted. So it does not belong in Category:Wikipedia substituted templates any more than it would belong in Category:Wikipedia transcluded templates. So please do not revert my next edit, which will be to remove this index template from the sub-temp cat. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  16:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that message box template should not be substituted, especially with all the parser functions. If you feel the template is inappropriate for this page, remove it entirely or edit it so it fits. Also, I changed "organize" to "organise" because we already have British spellings on the page and the spelling on a page must be consistent. Since the redirect templates use British spelling, it seems more appropriate to make the whole page British rather than making it American and listing redirects for the templates. McLerristarr | Mclay1 05:18, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Fixed. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  03:48, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2[edit]

Edit conflicts[edit]

Editor Mclay1, please stop your edit war our edit conflicts. The Mbox you keep installing attempts to dictate to other editors what they may or may not do in an authoritarian manner. You are an editor like me, and it is not our place to tell other editors what they may or may not do. The existing Ombox makes the point exceedingly well, so please leave it in place. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  18:03, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

  • PS. Some of the other edits you've made are good, and I have left the good ones in place. Other edits you've made are just plain unnecessary. For example, you keep changing the first sentence to "This list of templates is furnishes editors with a practical tool . . .". Can't you see the double-verb you keep putting there? And this is an "Index Template", therefore it should be called what it is.
OK, first of all, I reverted once because your missing the point of what my edit did. The message box is what will be transcluded if someone accidentally uses this template as a redirect template. It could quite easily be used by accident instead of Template:R to help. Secondly, "is furnishes" is just a typo. And thirdly, you made the term "index template" up. It's just a list of templates. McLerristarr | Mclay1 06:21, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Also, they're redirect templates not redirect category templates – you're the only one who calls them the latter and seems to be just so you can use the abbreviation "Rcat". McLerristarr | Mclay1 06:24, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
I disagree that it will be so easy to mistake the two templates. That's what hatnotes are for, and the existing box will work just as well in the event of an accidental transclusion. Let's not quibble about typos, please, this entire conversation is keeping you from your work improving the Rcats that have been protected. What's holding that up, by the way? Yes, I made the term "index template" up, because this is a functional index of redirect category templates. I didn't make "Rcat" up, though, that term's been around longer than I have. When you read WP:RCAT, you'll find that the terms "redirect category template" and "redirect template" are used interchangeably. These Rcats place redirects into categories, so I prefer to use the longer term, "redirect category template", or shorten it to the acronym "Rcat". Please continue improving this index template, and please leave the lede as it is. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  06:40, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
  • PS. I'm beginning to get the feeling that the real reason behind your want to move this page is so you can turn {{R help}} into a shortcut for {{R to help}}. Is that correct?
No, I do not wish to redirect this page to Template:R to help. I just think that the name of this page is like the name of a redirect template so it could easily be used by accident (obviously not if the editor looks at this page first). I just think it would be better to just transclude a message box rather than the entire page. McLerristarr | Mclay1 06:48, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
PS Do not accuse me of vandalism. I am certainly not vandalising. Also remember, it takes at least two to edit war. McLerristarr | Mclay1 07:23, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Vandalism? I don't recall using that word in any of this discussion. I informed you that you were approaching the edge of the 3RR policy, that your edits might be considered disruptive, that you and I have been quibbling about small things when we both have larger fish to fry, but you are not a vandal, no, far from it. I think you are a very dedicated person just like I am, both of us dedicated to improving this encyclopedia. We just have different styles, that's all. I respect your style, just as I hope you respect mine. It seems very hard to accept it when we're not right about something, and I think you've been wrong about some things where this index template is concerned. However, when it comes to all the other improvements you've made, to other pages and even to this one, you are right far more often than you've been wrong. I noincluded most of this page, so if an editor mistakenly transcludes it, just the box and lede will show up in the diffs. I sincerely hope that this and the hatnotes will meet your concerns about accidental transclusions. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  23:06, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Upon reflection, I became more sensitive to your concern, here, Mclay1. I have adjusted the warning box to include your more attention-getting Mbox and a message about incorrect placement, especially on Redirects. Please forgive me for my previous confusion. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  17:57, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm glad we can agree on something finally. Just to clear something up, I had only reverted once when you gave me the warning about edit warring. Also, my comment about you accusing me of vandalism came from one of your edit summaries: "this is beginning to border on vandalism". But no matter. It seems we have solved this argument. McLerristarr | Mclay1 11:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Rcats[edit]

Mclay1, I see you're busy at work once again trying to make my life miserable. The alternative name Rcat is widely used in both the template and project namespaces, and used some in other namespaces, as well. Just click on "What links here" and limit the search to the namespaces to see that. So "R from other name" is definitely not limited to article namespace. As for the shortcut, okay, I'll give you that one. No big deal. Sheesh. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  04:09, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Please don't take this stuff personally. I really don't think there is any point in categorising a redirect to a template as a redirect from an alternative name. All redirects to templates are alternative names for their respective targets. Most redirect templates should only be used in the main namespace because that's the only place that they're at all useful. McLerristarr | Mclay1 05:25, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
And once again we find ourselves in complete and total disagreement. Surprise! – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  10:41, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
I have a very similar userbox, although it would be quite an accomplishment if you could find mine, since my user page in an absolute mess. I guess we're at yet another stalemate. McLerristarr | Mclay1 06:14, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
You are an excellent editor, Mclay1, and I always find it difficult to be in contention with such editors. As in the past and no matter what particular debate we might find ourselves in, I continue to wish the best of everything to you and yours! – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  08:08, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

R from former name[edit]

Why is {{R from former name}} not listed? Is it deprecated? --Redrose64 (talk) 15:51, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

It's not deprecated. There are many redirect templates missing from this list. At the moment, it's meant to list the most used template but, even then, it's missing some. We'll finish it eventually. McLerristarr | Mclay1 03:39, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Please remember that if you frequently use an Rcat that's not on the list, any editor can add an Rcat to the list. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  08:51, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Which would *you* use?[edit]

I'm wondering (small poll) which would other users here use?

I created a "Template:Legislatures of the Americas". Basically it just uses "The Americas" standard template and auto creates "Legislature in (place name)" links for both independent and non-independent nations. Needless to say "Legislature in the United States" isn't the actual title. It would be "United States Congress" therefore "Legislature in the United States" forwards to "United States Congress", but it doesn't stop there. Legislature in the Anguilla" forwards to "Legislative Council in Anguilla" and "Legislature in Barbados" forwards to "Parliament of Barbados". As you can see there are a wide array of legislature names through-out the Americas. Leading me to my question. What forwarding "redirect template" would you recommend or use in this case? "Legislature in the United States" isn't even close to really being an alias but I can't name the template "Parliaments of the Americas", "National Assemblies of the Americas", "Legislative Councils of the Americas", or "Congresses of the Americas" since that leaves out some. The only common thread is their all legislatures by different names. CaribDigita (talk) 04:36, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

I checked out the Legislature in the United States, and as you see, it does not exist. So I viewed your {{Legislatures of the Americas}} template and found that "United States" is actually linked to Legislature of the United States, which is REDIRECTed to "United States Congress". Before tackling your question, first you need to know that using REDIRECTs in templates reduces their effective value. If you use REDIRECTs, then the subject will not be in bold when the template is placed on the subject page. To illustrate, go to the United States Congress article and view the "United States Armed Forces" template at the bottom. You will see in that template that the article title, United States Congress, is in bold. If that link had been redirected, it would not be in bold. So avoid using REDIRECTS in templates.
Now to your question. You will want to choose the "best" or "closest" Rcat (redirect template) to categorize the REDIRECT in the "most correct" category. If I were to come across the Legislature of the United States REDIRECT, I would place the {{Redirect from alternative name}} and the {{R printworthy}} Rcats on it (as I just did, in fact). If you disagree and think another Rcat is better or closer, then by all means improve on my edit. I hope this helps. – Paine Ellsworth ( CLIMAX )  16:57, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

OK to use more than one?[edit]

I am wondering whether it is sometimes appropriate to use more than one of these templates for a single redirect. For example, if a redirect is both a name without diacritics and a member of a group, is it OK to include both {{R from title without diacritics}} and {{R from member}}? If that is acceptable, can we put some note in the article to explicitly say that? —BarrelProof (talk) 16:34, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is acceptable: besides your examples, there are often cases when an {{R to section}} or a {{R to list entry}} will also be a {{R with possibilities}} - and several other combinations are commonly found.
The most that I've seen is three (or maybe four), but I don't see why more might not be used, provided that every one is appropriate. Current convention is to put each one on a separate line, although technical restrictions which existed a few years ago mean that you occasionally see them all strung together on the first line. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:10, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps that is more apparent to some people than it was to me. What do you think of the idea of adding, as the third sentence on this page, the following: "When applicable, more than one of these templates can be used on the same redirect page."? —BarrelProof (talk) 19:07, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
It's stated - but not in those words - at WP:TMR, last paragraph before the table of contents. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:49, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Interesting. What is the difference in purpose (if any) between WP:Template messages/Redirect pages and Template:R template index? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BarrelProof (talkcontribs) 20:08, 16 March 2013‎
Hi. The more obvious differences are that the WP page lists Rcats alphabetically and this index lists them functionally, as well as this index is for Rcats that are used frequently. We are still working on the WP page to make it as complete as possible with every known Rcat. Also, this index is designed to be helpful while editing redirects. It can be used in the preview screen (usually using a shortcut, such as {{R to}}) as a reminder when an editor is not quite certain which Rcat to use. – Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX! 16:34, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Bluebook redirects[edit]

So I just created a bunch of redirects to law journal articles from their Bluebook abbreviations. An example would be Loy. Consumer L. Rev. redirecting to Loyola Consumer Law Review. How should these be categorized? Also, would it be appropriate to create a new redir subcat for Bluebook or other publication short titles? —/Mendaliv//Δ's/ 08:53, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

You could use {{R from abbreviated title}}, or perhaps {{R from abbreviation}} (which has a different target). --Redrose64 (talk) 10:07, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Initialisms and acronyms[edit]

If the first row is just for initialisms, why doesn't acronyms have its own row immediately after? Also would be worth distinguishing the difference between the two terms on the page, for reference. czar · · 06:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Good idea! yellow tickY Partly done. The terms are explained in the articles and on the Rcat pages, {{R from acronym}} and {{R from initialism}}. This page is just an index, a pointer page to more info. When there is time, though, I shall add an example or two (or you can add one or more, if you like). – Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX! 16:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

misunderstood R templates[edit]

I don't understand recent changes to some of the values for the {{This is a redirect}} templates:

Calling some of these shortcuts ("rsh") apparently because they're simply shorter (thus within the scope of "from short name") seems redundant or inapropos. I've used the term shortcut for the kind of redirects that get added to boxes on pages and that are usually in all capitals; while there are some exceptions, simply being shorter doesn't usually seem to be one of them.

A mention in the Edit Summaries to C:WRONG is fine as a justification, but a "see" reference implies an explanation when the category page doesn't give much of one. Perhaps someone would like to add a specific set of explanations there but that would likely be a lot, so maybe omitting the "see" word would be better.

If I'm misunderstanding the R categories, especially if other editors seem to also, I suggest editing the doc for {{R template index}}. Or perhaps how templated redirects automatically land in C:WRONG should be reviewed for consistency with {{R template index}}, meaning a review of programming somewhere. All of that may be beyond my present expertise. I hope I'm not inconveniencing anyone much by adding the templates, compared to not using them. I'll try to do them right, if I'm not now.

Nick Levinson (talk) 20:53, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I think I explained some of this for you elsewhere... taking your second bullet Wikipedia:Law source as reliable source as an example, it has {{This is a redirect|mod|to project|rcon}} - that isn't a short form of {{mod}}{{to project}}{{rcon}} but a short form of {{R mod}}{{R to project}}{{R rcon}}. Since Template:R rcon doesn't exist, that's when it uses {{rcon}} instead. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:30, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Hi, Nick – The category at CAT:WRONG gets populated by redirects that have been tagged with the wrong templates. {{R to plural}}, for example, can only be used in main article namespace, so if it is placed on a project redirect like Wikipedia:Law source as reliable source, then instead of populating Category:Redirects to plurals it will populate Category:Pages with templates in the wrong namespace (C:WRONG). "Hatnotes" in italics have been placed on most of the Rcat documentation pages just below the "Usage" header that indicate the limitations on where the Rcats can be used to tag redirects. Please note this at {{R from initialism}}, which is another Rcat that is only used in main article namespace. This page, {{R template index}}, also has hatnotes that inform editors to:
  • Check each Rcat's template page to see in which namespace(s) it may be used.
If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Joys! – Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX! 08:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
PS. I have just added an explanation at CAT:WRONG, Nick. Feel free to clarify it where necessary. PS added by Paine Ellsworth
I think I see my problem. I use a one-stop-shopping system, in part because I edit offline where I don't have Internet access, then come to where I have Internet access during limited hours to edit according to steps I prepared. So I keep text copies of some pages, such as Template:R template index. You're right that I should have paid attention to the instruction to check namespace restrictions. Not doing so was my fault. But I'm not clear that most users follow links for each different R template. I wonder if a single doc could not be written for all of them, making all of the information for all of the R templates and the {{This is a redirect}} template visible at one reading and probably reducing editorial maintenance of the doc over time. A similar solution is already applied to hatnote templates, which share {{Hatnote templates documentation}} for the doc. With "mod", I forgot that in order to read a particular {{This is a redirect}} template for its values I should unstrip a leading "R" with a space. Thanks for adding to C:WRONG. In general, I guess my sense is that some of the key docs are written more for experts so that those of us who apply these templates relatively infrequently are more likely to make mistakes, which I try to avoid doing. I'll try to get it right next time, because I don't want y'all to have to keep spending time correcting my redirects. Thank you very kindly. Nick Levinson (talk) 23:42, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Nick, I think the thing you should try to remember here is that Wikipedia, along with all its support pages/documentation, is a work-in-progress. Anybody can edit it and few if any of us are "experts" in all facets. There is still much to be done and you are welcome to help. While it's always good to try to avoid error, it's also true that sometimes making mistakes is a way to learn without forgetting. What we are dealing with is a community effort of staggering proportions, and an encyclopedia that has grown to ever larger size over the years. Overall, it's a very rewarding experience for those who keep at it. – Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX! 00:06, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Categorization of redirects[edit]

A discussion has been opened at Wikipedia talk:Categorizing redirects about a proposed update to one of the sections of that project page. All ideas are welcome! Joys! – Paine Ellsworth CLIMAX! 23:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Add {{R from sort name}}[edit]

I would like to add {{R from sort name}} to this template. You you have a good idea about where to put it please say so or add it to the template yourself. If you think it should not be added to this template, why not? —  AjaxSmack  21:21, 21 August 2014 (UTC)