Template talk:Varieties of Arabic

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Maltese[edit]

This is irrelevant as has been pointed out more times than I care to mention. Maltese is linguo-genetically Arabic irrespective of its social status, which is made clear at Varieties of Arabic and Maghrebi Arabic. Thus, just as a template on Slavic or Germanic languages list all their varieties, so should one on Arabic varieties. Unless this template is about Arabic dialects specifically, or those generally considered "dialects", it should not enforce an arbitrary classification based on this social assumption. I fail to understand the need to hide Nubi language behind "Kinubi Creole Arabic" for the same reason. What I find even more strange is that his template is not even listed at Varieties of Arabic, which makes me question its purpose in the first place. — Zerida 03:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to talk. I do agree that the template should include both Maltese and Kinubi for the reasons outlined above. One solutin to this might be to rename the template something like 'Varieties and descendants of Arabic', but that is rather clumsy... And I'll think I'll add the template to Varieties of Arabic... I hadn't noticed it wasn't there. Drmaik 05:24, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Sudanese Arabic, peripheral?[edit]

Hi, can someone calrify why Sudanese is listed among peripherals in the Navibar?.Hakeem.gadi (talk) 10:37, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a good question. It looks like this is one of the changes that User:Taivo introduced. I wouldn't have immediately put Sudanese in the peripheral category... Drmaik (talk) 11:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Nope, I didn't introduce the category "Peripheral". It was that way in the article Varieties of Arabic when I found it. See the article Varieties of Arabic and you will find the "Peripheral" category there. I just made the template and the article consistent (more or less). If you don't like "Peripheral", feel free to move it around, but please keep the article and the template consistent. If you describe "peripheral" as "heavily influenced by surrounding languages", then Sudanese is "peripheral". If you have a different definition, then it might not be. (Taivo (talk) 12:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC))
If we use that as a criterion, then some dialects like Moroccan would be considered "peripheral" since it is probably more influenced by other languages than Sudanese. Sudanese is not listed as a peripheral variety in Varieties of Arabic as far as I can see. I suggest bringing it back up in the template. — Zerida 02:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
You're right! I was thinking of Chadian. I think one of the reasons that I moved Sudanese into Peripheral is that the group was called "Egyptian" whereas in the Varieties article it was called "Central". I renamed the group in the template "Central" (renamed "Cairene" to "Egyptian") and moved Sudanese into that group where it belongs. Sorry about the confusion. (Taivo (talk) 03:12, 12 March 2008 (UTC))

Thanks for the constructive discussion. The template looks more nautural now-at least to me. I still wonder though, what the exact def of peripheral Arabic is. If anyone can dig it out somewhere It'd be of great help in sorting things out. Thanks.Hakeem.gadi (talk) 07:59, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

This is a pure guess, but it seems that "Peripheral" may refer to those varieties of Arabic spoken beyond the confines of Arab ethnicity and in regions where Arabic is not the majority language--Nigeria, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan/Afghanistan, Iran. Even in Chad, the southern part of the country is solidly African both ethnically and linguistically. Thus the Tajiki/Uzbeki/Iranian varieties are often called "Persianized Arabic". These are also varieties of Arabic spoken outside the diglossia zone. As such, there isn't a linguistic node on a family tree that would be labelled "Peripheral", but they would be defined sociolinguistically. And although Maltese is clearly a descendant of Maghribi, I would also lean towards including it in Peripheral since it is "Italianized Arabic" and outside the diglossia zone. These are just my personal musings about the issue of "peripheral". I'm informed on the issue of the Arabic languages, but I'm by no means a specialist. (Taivo (talk) 08:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC))
Here's a reference to "Peripheral Arabic": Alan S. Kaye & Judith Rosenhouse. 1997. "Arabic Dialects and Maltese," The Semitic Languages. Ed. Robert Hetzron. Routledge Language Family Descriptions. London: Routledge. Pages 263-311. The relevant quote on 263 says, "Arabic dialects may be considered languages, comparable to the Romance situation. Peripheral Arabic dialects such as Uzbeki Arabic, Maltese, Juba Arabic and Ki-Nubi, Afghan Arabic, the extinct Andalusian (Spanish) Arabic, are more divergent than the mainstream Middle Eastern or North African dialects." So there you have a listing of what these authors consider "peripheral" Arabic. But Juba and Ki-Nubi aren't Arabic dialects, but Arabic-based creoles. I wasn't specifically looking for a definition of "peripheral", but there it is, it just popped out at me. There is, of course, no linguistic unity among these "peripheral" dialects. They are defined more by what they are not than by what they are. (Taivo (talk) 19:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC))
I am not sure if I agree with grouping Egyptian and Sudanese as "Central" varieties, mainly because I've never seen this classification cited in literature. Could someone find a reference? — Zerida 03:09, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
I have never seen a reference for this either, but it is a fairly clear geographical grouping, as is "Arabian" and "Levantine" and "Mesopotamian". I think that the template should walk a compromise line between genetic and geographical. Perhaps the geographical groups in the template should be labelled with the headers in quotation marks--"Central", "Levantine", "Arabian", etc. (Taivo (talk) 05:45, 16 March 2008 (UTC))

The Template and the Article[edit]

The template and the article Varieties of Arabic still aren't entirely consistent. I worked on making them match, especially bringing the terminology into line with ISO 639-3, but wasn't entirely successful. I would think that the chart in the article and this template should exactly reflect one another. They don't entirely right now. (Taivo (talk) 12:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC))

Soqotri[edit]

Shouldn't Soqotri be in the template too? Akerbeltz (talk) 17:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

No. It's not Arabic. Hebrew and Aramaic would be closer. — kwami (talk) 18:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Andalusian Arabic[edit]

Many scholars (such as Versteegh in his book "The Arabic Language") say that the Andalusian dialect does not fit into Maghribi or any other dialect since it developed independently from the North African dialects from a very early time. Just because the invaders were mainly North Africans doesn't entail Andalusian was a North African dialect in the same way that Egyptian, Levantine, and Mesopotamian dialects aren't classified as Arabian or Yemeni just because those were the invaders who introduced Arabic to those regions. In fact, most North Africans did not yet even speak Arabic by the time they invaded Iberia, so they did not introduce Arabic, let alone Maghribi Arabic (which would not develop for centuries) into Iberia. Siculo-Arabic (and it's descendant Maltese) are Maghribi by virtue that by the time that the Berbers brought Arabic to Sicily and Malta, the Arabic they spoke had already morphed linguistically into a separate dialect therefore Siculo-Arabic was based on this dialect, though like I said, that is not the case with the Iberian Arabic dialect (perhaps there was more than one, just like there is more than one Romance language in Iberia).

Also, this dialect is not extinct, there are still pockets of speakers, especially in Morocco and Tunisia, where they form their own communities which have managed to keep their identity and dialect alive and distinct from the surrounding locals. These speakers are direct descendants of the expelled "Moriscos". It is likely that their ranks include descendants of Andalusi Muslims who left Iberia in 1492 and before that.

Sorry, for the continuous edits on my part, but I needed to bring attention to this. In my opinion, based on some sources I have seen, which I will try to find and source here, Andalusian Arabic should be classed in a category all its own (a category ideally named "Iberian" since Hispano-Arabic and Andalusi[an] Arabic are already names for this dialect), independent from Maghrebi dialects. I do not think that Andalusi should be considered Maghrebi just because it's western in the same form that Levantine, Egyptian, and Mesopotamian dialects are not considered as one group called "Mashriqi" just because they are eastern. Can anyone, with sourced authorities, bring evidence to the contrary. Otherwise, with sources, I will bring Andalusian Arabic into its own category: Iberian.--172.249.26.207 (talk) 04:15, 16 July 2013 (UTC)