User talk:Iridescent

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An administrator "assuming good faith" with an editor with whom they have disagreed.

If I start a conversation on your talk page, I'm watching it; reply on your talk page.

If you start a conversation here, I'll reply here
, so make sure you watch this page.

How Arbcom Works: part 1

Pig-faced women[edit]

I changed to "Oppose" at WP:TFAR, respectfully deferring to your judgment as FA nominator.

Did you have a more ideal date in mind for the article's future Main Page appearance?

Thank you for your numerous high quality WP:FA contributions to Wikipedia,

Cirt (talk) 06:05, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I know you know, but for the benefit of anyone else reading this, replied at WP:TFAR. If you're looking for peculiar FAs which haven't run yet, Charles Domery is still floating about (although it doesn't have the eye-catching images PFW has). To some extent, Domery has the same problem, that some people will consider showcasing it an attack on a particular group (in this case, the Poles and to a lesser extent people with eating disorders), but it doesn't have the same element of simultaneously being offensive to the Irish, French, Dutch, women, animal-lovers and the disabled which PFW brings with it. (Domery is part of a trio on 18th-century eating disorders, all of which have a high WTF-factor; I'd prefer Tarrare not run for the moment, and Daniel Lambert has already run.) Opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway could be dressed up for the occasion also—from the title it sounds dull as ditchwater, but it's actually an extraordinary story of a showpiece event that went so disastrously wrong, the government and courts seriously considered banning locomotives. George Stephenson had a standing offer from the Tsar to take his newfangled steam engine to Russia and if he'd been banned from making or using them in the UK would presumably have done so, which would in turn have kept the United States a thin coastal strip (the locomotives which opened up the interior were imported from Newcastle) and made Imperial Russia an unstoppable force, able to use their new industrial power to swat aside any hapless Turks and Prussians trying to stop them. The OOTLMR is a turning-point that (outside of Liverpool and Manchester themselves) doesn't get the credit it deserves.
If the "never repeat a TFA" rule is ever relaxed*, Biddenden Maids, Halkett boat and the aforementioned Daniel Lambert would all be workable as April Fools TFAs. I have a soft spot for Halkett boat in particular, which really is a case of the truth being stranger than fiction.
Per my outburst at TFAR, in my opinion the April Fools/Halloween tradition is an embarrassing relic of Raul's tendency on occasion to presume that whichever idea he'd happened to have embodied The Will Of The Community, and should be shown the door. With the possible exception of that film last year, to the best of my knowledge every April Fools TFA (Pigeon photography, Cock Lane ghost, Wife selling, Museum of Bad Art, Ima Hogg, George Washington (inventor), Spoo) has led to a wave of lunatics hijacking the article, generally followed by the author of the article being blocked for edit-warring when they try to restore it to something approaching stability; ask Eric Corbett or Parrot of Doom just how well the system works. – iridescent 22:15, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
*I'd personally support a change to "never repeat a TFA within five years". The argument that it gives undue prominence to the topic is hooey, since nobody except die-hard wiki-obsessives will even realise the article has run before. The argument that "it prevents other TFAs having their day in the sun" is also baloney—many if not most of Featured articles that haven't been on the Main Page are either old FAs of embarrassingly poor quality, articles which their authors would prefer not run, or arcane articles like Quainton Road railway station which would be pointless to run since the only people who would find them interesting are people with enough of an interest in the topic that they've already read them.
Yes I think alot of mine are in the last category....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:13, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
I will concur that Banksias did flit through my mind as I wrote that (along with extinct bat species), but it seemed a little churlish to pick somebody else's as an example, especially given that I have Wandsworth Bridge (which may hold the record for the highest significance/interesting-things-to-say-about-it ratio of anything ever built*) to my name—it even had DYK that there's nothing interesting to say about it on the main page. At some point I ought to ask Bencherlite to run it as TFA (it is eligible…) and see if it makes the usual suspects who whinge about boring content on the main page** self-destruct with indignation. – iridescent 11:45, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Spot the bridge
*As HJ Mitchell and Julia W had the pleasure of hearing me drunkenly trying to explain at great length recently, Wandsworth Bridge's single interesting feature is also a damn nuisance; it retains its remarkably effective wartime camouflage. This is a major piece of ironmongery—as of about five years ago the second busiest road bridge in the UK—but it's astonishingly difficult to take a photograph in which the bridge doesn't either blend into the background or appear to be much smaller than it is.
**Special mention to the guy who nominated Norwich Market for deletion on the grounds of "non-notability".
Just imagine it is Stephen Fry chatting about it on'll seem more worthwhile then - just been watching a couple of episodes of this with my kids....dunno, must have more intrinsic merit than Miley Cyrus or a Kardashian....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:38, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Since QI's research team's methodology appears to be "go through the contribution history of myself, Eric Corbett and Parrot of Doom, share out the results between Fry's scripted questions and the guests' scripted answers, and pad it out with whatever happens to be on TIL that day without ever bothering to check its accuracy or credit the author", my opinion of it is not high. I've caught them previously passing off blocks of Wikipedia text verbatim (and uncredited, natch) as their own content. See this episode, where the chat about Tarrare is literally taken verbatim from Wikipedia, right down to the slightly awkward phrasing about "a toddler" I used to avoid close paraphrasing issues with "a child between one and two" which appears in every source other than Wikipedia. (Not as odd as it sounds that they'd all use the same wording, as they've all drawing from Percy's paper as a primary source.) While I'm on this tirade, if you're ever in Manchester then visit MOSI's new Revolution Manchester Gallery and see if there's something oddly familiar sounding about their showpiece exhibits on the Manchester Small-Scale Experimental Machine and the Opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. (I'm amazed QI haven't picked up on Eilley Bowers yet—possibly the single most peculiar biographical article I've ever written, and one which I keep hoping someone will find the sources for to flesh out and take to FAC. Given that she's "one of the most researched, written and talked about women in Nevada history"—and that's the University of Nevada Department of Women's Studies saying that, who presumably ought to know—I find it singularly difficult to find any of said research, writing or talking other than what I already used. @Dr. Blofeld, Rosiestep, did you find anything when you were writing Sandy Bowers?) – iridescent 16:37, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
I was on a game show once where Amanita muscaria was described as the quintessential toadstool and I could say, "haahahaaaaahaaaa" wonder where that came from! (chuckle) I am depressed about QI....oh well....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:11, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm trying to think of what game show could possibly have included the phrase "Amanita muscaria is the quintessential toadstool", and failing miserably. I think every assumption I have about Aussie TV must be seriously wrong.
That particular "Illness" episode of QI had Ben Goldacre, self-appointed arch-scourge of uncited statements and misuse of sources (incidentally his talk archive is the history of Wikipedia in miniature, complete with people demanding to include The Truth I Read On A Website Somewhere, a conspiracy theory about SlimVirgin, sarcastic comments from Andy Mabbett and interminable ramblings about reliable sourcing), as one of the panelists. Cut from the original broadcast, but retained in the extended QI XL version included on Dave's endless loop of repeats, is an impressively uncomfortable scene in which Goldacre says that in his opinion the QI franchise is the single worst offender for giving spurious legitimacy to untrue claims. (Personally I think that's an unfair statement in a world in which the Daily Mail and the laughably-named Independent exist, albeit the BBC is theoretically meant to be held to a higher standard.) The cringe on Stephen Fry's face is worth the licence fee alone. My personal opinion of QI books and programmes as a source is identical to my opinion of the Mail—if what they claim is true, then a genuine reliable source somewhere will have covered it, but they have far too much of a history of reprinting press releases, cut-and-pasting from dubious websites without fact-checking, and cherry-picking data to suit the story they want to tell (yes, I can give examples if someone wants to argue this particular toss—the reporting as undisputed fact of Klar's 2004 Excess of counterclockwise scalp hair-whorl rotation in homosexual men paper, which 'proves' that gay men and straight men are physically different, and whose results AFAIK no other researcher has managed to replicate in the subsequent 10 years, for instance) to be reliable in their own right. – iridescent 17:44, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) Since you mention the Mail, it's currently enjoying one of its perennial appearances on WP:RS/N, where it's being defended with the usual combination of "but the BBC makes errors too!" and "you just don't like it 'cos of your liberal bias". In my view, the evolution of these Mail reliability threads is indicative of the steady decline in aggregate cluefulness of our editor corps. Last time around, a prominent editor who's sometimes mistaken for a voice of reason told us that "most medical reporting is actually reasonably good" in the Mail. I was inspired to add #21 to the cynic's guide to Wikipedia as a result. MastCell Talk 19:17, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
@iridescent - The Einstein Factor - one had to pick and esoteric subject to be on. I was on three times - first time I chose horned dinosaurs, which is why alot my early edits were on these - I figured actively editing to buff up for a game show was better than passive learning. Second time I went on I chose poisonous mushrooms....(first time was banksias but that was before I edited here)Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:11, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
@Mastcell - aaah yes good medical research. I just checked - this article cites this paper (hint - look at the prerandomization bit). Now via the newer article it will end up in Review literature. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:21, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Last year, someone else who shall remain nameless (but rhymes with "Bealdgyth") was defending the Mail, and literally within two minutes "Flying saucer sighted in Shipley" popped up as "breaking news". Sometimes, the Mail is beyond parody. (As I write, this fine piece of journalism is one of their "Editor's six of the best" for the day.) President Eisenhower had three secret meetings with aliens, former Pentagon consultant claims is my personal favourite piece of recent Mail nonsense. Well, if "a former consultant" said it on a comedy show, it must be true! – iridescent 21:25, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I used to struggle to articulate why the Daily Mail is hopeless as a source beyond "well obviously". That was until they plagiarised a Wikipedia article and still managed to introduce errors. Nev1 (talk) 17:49, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, but the Mail is ever with us, so long as WP:RS/N threads on its reliability are dominated (or at least filibustered) by the same small but vocal set of clueless editors. (It's not that the Mail is the only bad source we use. It's just that if we can't even agree that the Mail is unsuitable, what chance do we have of dealing seriously with more borderline cases?) MastCell Talk 19:38, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Undeletion of "Lingwa de planeta" page[edit]

My request is about Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lingwa_de_Planeta. Tha conlang has progressed a lot since 2007, and now there are not less than 50 real speakers (that is, writers) of the language, the (relatively) huge amount of texts and songs and a few good references. I've prepared the new article here: Draft:Lingwa_de_planeta. That is the translation of Russian article, and there still are some things I can't get (like template for citing an artice as a source). English is not my native language, so the text may not be perfect, but I hope to get some help.

In 2007 the article wasn't deleted by you personally, but all the other administrators participating in discussion are either retired or not active more. Waiting for your answer, Sunnynai (talk) 09:04, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

The new draft is certainly a much better article than the version that was deleted, but I'm afraid that because it's a topic on which I know little, I'm not well placed to judge its validity. The best place to ask for advice would be Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics as they'll know which sources are reliable in this context. – iridescent 08:15, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the answer! The fact is that User:Evertype put the artice into the mainspace and added the template in the talk page. So I hope it's OK now just to wait for any discussion to arise. --Sunnynai (talk) 09:11, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
I did that in part because Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is about to be published (this week) in Lidepla, and that puts it firmly in the field of "notable" in terms of conlangs. -- Evertype· 11:33, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Precious again[edit]

Cornflower blue Yogo sapphire.jpg

quality standards
Thank you for quality articles such as today's Aylesbury duck, for patiently trying to reach the best possible quality, for understanding the difference between "ownership" of an article and responsibility for it ("People familiar with the topic are more likely to know of problems regarding it" isn't a blasphemy against the spirit ...), for presenting yourself not in userboxes but in dialogue, - repeating: you are an awesome Wikipedian (7 February 2009, 29 January 2010)!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:19, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

A year ago, you were the 517th recipient of my PumpkinSky Prize,

Thanks, although if I'm going to be remembered for something I'm not sure Aylesbury duck would be the one I'd choose. That one's so boring, even the vandals didn't bother with it. – iridescent 10:57, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Same for BWV 172 ;) - What would you want to be remembered for? - I put mine in my user's infobox, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
In terms of articles, Biddenden Maids, Daniel Lambert and Pig-faced women for (I hope) showing that it's possible to treat really peculiar topics sensitively without engaging in "hey, look at this weird thing!" posturing; Opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway for (I hope) explaining why something 99% of readers will never have heard of was a genuinely world-shaking event with consequences that are still affecting all our readers' daily lives today; Battersea Bridge and Hellingly Hospital Railway for showing that it's possible to write on a dry technical topic without going into "the 4-4-2 Manning Wardle tank engine was fitted with twin reciprocating camshafts" nerdiness; and Halkett boat for bringing those wonderful drawings to a wider audience.
In terms of Wikipedia meta-issues, as one of those who fought to show that there isn't a clear dichotomy between Good Wikipedia editors who toil tirelessly for the greater good, and Evil banned users who circle the project like a pack of wolves (or if you prefer, Evil drones who slave for Jimbo's self-aggrandizing machine, and Good fearless rebels who dare to challenge the established order and are blocked by the evil cabal), back when the us-and-them mentality was far more entrenched than it is now.
In practice, I know damned well that my Wikipedia tombstone will read 'Coiner of the phrases "Indefinite means undefined not infinite" and "Without content Wikipedia is just Facebook for ugly people" ', with a brief footnote of 'only person ever to be expelled from Arbcom'. – iridescent 11:29, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, for explaining and for treating really peculiar topics sensitively! - I wish you were on arbcom! Some seem to wait for me to appeal my sanctions, - but how can I appeal to people who didn't look and understand in the first place? - In practise: I'm in the info-box, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:52, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I've been sanctioned by ArbCom as well Gerda but it bothers me not at all. I've never even considered appealing, and I very much doubt I ever will. Where's the fun in prostrating yourself before a bunch of sanctimonious windbags? Eric Corbett 12:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't bother me too much, the restriction to 2 comments in a discussion is even a true blessing, which should be handed out more generously. I only said that I seem to be expected to appeal. No, I won't. My sanction is so ridiculous, example: I wrote more than 90% of Richard Adeney, but I am restricted not to add an infobox because I didn't literally "create" it = turn red link to blue. I had simply forgotten that I hadn't done that, this was in 2009, I only remembered the work I put in. Even more ridiculous is that my police bothers to follow me, revert me, and write a warning. Could some merciful soul perhaps restore the infobox? This is not a composer, there's no controversy on musical artists, - it's just ridiculous. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:03, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Actually there is, but that's beside the point: you're expected to either appeal or stick to the restriction - doing neither is not an option, and helping you to do neither is no mercy. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Did you hear today's music, lonely hearts club? When I started the article on Neill Sanders I had no idea that he played the famous horn calls. I gave him an infobox recently, and also several of his colleagues. One was reverted, per my restriction. Does it make sense? (The restriction leading to inconsistent treatment of articles, I mean.) Would it make sense to appeal a restriction that doesn't make sense with the very same people who passed it? No. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:07, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Break: tunnels and civility[edit]

LambananasOM (cropped3).jpg

Thank you for the tunnel, - hoping for light at the end ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:41, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you... I will put my hand up and admit that Tunnel Railway is not the most exciting article on Wikipedia, but it's as interesting as a barely-used hole in the ground is ever going to be. (What's the significance of the lambananas? With the greatest of respect to that fine city, as symbols of hope go Liverpool city centre wouldn't be top of most people's lists. Except for Hope Street, I suppose.) – incredibly toxic personality 10:11, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the signature. Great idea! - The lambananas are my signature: picture taken by a missing admired editor. You may remember reading in the Signpost that I translate for editors not wanted here, - in this case I took the picture and send it around the world, a little effort fighting toxic atmosphere. --incredibly toxic personality --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:28, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Unless you've done something to earn his wrath, I don't think "incredibly toxic personality" was aimed at you. Although he's very carefully avoided naming names this time round (understandable, in light of what happened last time he started attacking people he disliked by name), to the best of my knowledge Jimmy Wales's "toxic personalities who allegedly produce good content" are, in roughly descending order, Bishonen (undoubtedly top of his list), Giano, Eric Corbett, Thekohser, Wehwalt, every person listed here, Alison, Rlevse and myself, and I'm not sure the latter two are significant enough to make it onto the list any more.
As regards the issue at the root of this, my thoughts haven't changed since I proposed this rewritten civility policy back Before The Dawn of Time (my bolding of the key points):

The civility policy Wikipedia ought to have doesn't need a novel; it needs three short paragraphs:

  • "Wikipedia's editors are expected to avoid, unless necessary for editorial reasons, the use of language which can be reasonably expected to offend a significant number of Wikipedia's readers. Wikipedia's editors are also expected to avoid the use of language which can reasonably be construed as belittling another user, unless such language is necessary for editorial reasons (e.g. warning an editor who is repeatedly introducing serious errors and refuses to accept reasonable explanations as to why their changes are inappropriate). Once an editor has had it drawn to their attention that another editor considers their conduct unacceptable, that editor should either cease the behavior in question or explain to the complaining editor why they consider the conduct reasonable; if the editors are unable to agree on what constitutes reasonable conduct, wider community input should be requested to determine consensus on the issue. If an editor continues unnecessarily to use language which has been determined to be offensive to significant numbers of Wikipedia's readers, or which is widely considered to constitute the unnecessary belittling of another Wikipedia editor, sanctions may be imposed upon the editor in question.
  • Likewise, if an editor repeatedly accuses another editor of inappropriate conduct after such conduct has been deemed appropriate by the broader community, and continues to make such accusations after the fact of it being considered acceptable has been drawn to their attention, sanctions may be imposed to prevent the editor in question from continuing to make vexations complaints.
  • Other than in exceptional cases in which a given editor's continued activity has a realistic potential to cause serious damage to the English language Wikipedia or serious damage to public perception of the English language Wikipedia, blocks and other sanctions will not be applied for breaches of this policy, both in the case of users using language considered to be uncivil and in the case of users considered to be making vexatious complaints, prior to community discussion about the appropriateness of such sanctions."
While I'm sure there are excellent reasons why this wouldn't work, I've yet to hear one—this is basically a Bradspeak description of the way people interact in the real world.
@Newyorkbrad, Risker, Roger Davies, Jimbo Wales: why and how has WP:FIVE somehow been elevated with no apparent discussion to some kind of Wikipedia Constitution, rather than an intentionally vague personal essay for people trying to explain Wikipedia to outsiders who disliked the word "dick" in the original WP:TRIFECTA? It still has the prominent "This is a non-binding description of some of the fundamental principles, begun by User:Neutrality in 2005 as a simple introduction for new users" disclaimer on the talk-page, but people who should know better (including Arbcom, Jimmy Wales and the WMF) have taken to quoting it as if Larry Sanger had brought it down on stone tablets from Mount Nupedia. (Presumably the Bomis Babe Engine provided the burning bush) – incredibly toxic personality 16:26, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Your remark inspired me to add an {{essay}} template; surprised it lasted nearly an hour.[1] Aren't people watching closely? Apparently it's "long established as policy". Hmmm. No {{policy}} template, I see. I should perhaps add one. Bishonen | talk 21:22, 13 August 2014 (UTC).
Surely " make vexatious complaints"? Ben MacDui 17:21, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
'tever. You're probably the first person ever to read it that far. – incredibly toxic personality 18:53, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Apparently, Jimbo's ill-informed and fatuous comments were met with:

  • [prolonged applause]
  • Wow. [applause continues]
  • Okay. [continuing applause]
  • Wow. Um, I thought I was going to be pushing an agenda here. [laughter] Apparently I'm fulfilling my role as symbolic monarch by speaking the thoughts that bubble up through the community."

I find this most revealing: I always thought those that attended such functions as Wikimania were slightly odd, at best geeky (who else would choose to stay in a chain hotel Clerkenwell); however, now we know, they are not just odd, but a troop of trained performing, clapping seals. Living in Britain must be a complete ordeal for poor Jimbo; one can't help wondering if he ever mixes outside of his charmed circle of Wikipedians, but yes, of course he does, he's tres chummy with that well known paragon of good manners Alastair Campbell. Enough said. Giano (talk) 20:23, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps those shrinking violets who claim to work in a perfectly civil and harmonious workplace that I certainly don't recognise would find it instructive to spend some time observing Campbell in his: "Campbell admitted to his liberal use of profanities in the workplace". Eric Corbett 21:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm quite sure, Eric, that we are both mistaken. Surely Jimmy would never be friendly with anyone known for their profanities; no matter how influential they may be. Jimbo would publicly deplore such a person.........wouldn't he? Giano (talk) 21:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

(outdent) I'm not sure why your "Five Pillars" question was aimed at me specifically. When I ran for ArbCom last time, which incidentally was the last time, I was asked about it, I said that it was a good essay that summarizes goals and aspirations, but spoke in broad generalities. I don't think I've ever personally cited it or based a decision on it, though I've voted for principles in which it was cited. The idea that we can resolve complex disputes by pointing to what is a "pillar" or not is an oversimplification. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:28, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

  • I don't know why you pinged me, either. In fact, I'm a bit annoyed that you did. You and I spoke (in person) some years ago about the phenomenon of people who have essentially divorced themselves from the project but occasionally show up being snarky to those who stick it out; back then, you didn't have very high regard for this sort of nonsense. You could well have taken advantage of the fact I was within a brief trip to whine at me in person over this past weekend - a couple of hundred other people did, in some form or another, although I'll admit some had nice things to say as well - but instead you take a sideswipe at me, and several others, for something I had nothing to do with. I have no idea why you're going around naming names that nobody else named, and I think you owe some people an apology. Risker (talk) 02:34, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
(To Brad, Risker and Roger) I wasn't pinging the three of you as holding you responsible for the change (although I can see in hindsight how it would look that way), but in your capacity as Wikipedia's institutional memory. The decision to formalise WP:FIVE must have been taken somewhere.
(To Risker specifically) I still agree on the topic of people who leave Wikipedia but still hang around bitching from the sidelines. (You may have noticed my complete absence from Wikipediacracy et al.) I was briefly back yesterday because Bencherlite emailed me to let me know Tunnel Railway was scheduled for the main page, and the long post above was a reply to Gerda's post. It's hardly a secret that I've believed for a long time that Jimmy Wales's opinions have become divorced from the broad mass of editors to an unhealthy degree. – incredibly toxic personality 08:51, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
We-ell, let's have an RfC hug-fest. I've set one up at Wikipedia_talk:Five_pillars#What_is_this_page.3F and asked neutrality. Let's ask Jimbo too. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:58, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Cas, given recent events involving RFCs that have been created at the spur of the moment to "answer questions" that only a few people have asked, and with the expectation that the outcome would be binding on the entire community, if not the entire Wikimedia global community, I'm going to say this isn't a good idea. In fact, I'm going to say that using an RFC in this way is pretty much a terrible idea. Having looked at the RFC you've started, frankly I can see no good outcome for it. People who treat those pages as guiding principles, policy or just some thoughts that were drafted in ancient times are going to continue to do so. There will be insufficient response to the RFC to consider its outcome binding. RFCs for project-wide issues have been largely ineffective since about 2008. Risker (talk) 15:15, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Risker disagree - to fob it off as Set in Stone comes across as patronising. Leaving these things open for a month or more and advertising. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:39, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not saying anything is set in stone. I'm saying that the recent history of RFCs to determine policy and similar site-wide issues has been ineffective; they're no longer discussions but instead have become votes that are then supposedly considered "consensus". Iridescent answered his own question in his link; it was rhetorical, not really an actual question, and I think it somewhat presumptuous to act as though this is a burning issue that requires resolution with a full-scale community-wide RFC. Not even Iridescent thought it was a big enough deal to raise the matter on the talk page there. Moving to an RFC when there really wasn't anything being disputed is rather absurd. Risker (talk) 04:13, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
What is the page then? People throw it around like the ten commandments and yet the page obsequiously says it's not a policy. It goes without saying that once there are more than about four editors one has to review quantitative rather than qualitative aspects of consensus. Folks over there are using some words...and if the discussion ratifies what people want then all well and good. The RfC is then acting like a bit of introspection. No harm in that I think. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:41, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
I do admit to cheering from the sidelines when I heard the rapturous applause that the Daily Mail was a very untrustworthy source of news. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:41, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
What could Jimmy possibly have against the Daily Mail? Don't get me wrong, I agree with him that the Mail is only a reliable source for stories about itself, but he's hardly an impartial observer—and that's quite aside from the barrage of abuse the Mail has subjected his BFF Lily Cole to.[2][3][4] (Cole obviously has a soft spot for unusual characters with beards. Although the painting appears to be of Lion-O from Thundercats.) – incredibly toxic personality 15:20, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

(outdent) In my capacity as "Wikipedia's institutional memory" ... I don't remember. (I probably didn't notice it was happening at the time; I've always focused, however ineffectually, on problem-solving, rather than "policy" in the abstract.) Make of that what you will. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:43, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Possibly explains why you've voted more than once at ArbCom to have me banned. Policy be damned, let's get rid of the "problem". But the real problem is that you've never actually recognised what the real problem is. Eric Corbett 23:17, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
(ec, I'm too slow) I believe, that if "incredibly toxic personalities" is used in the name of kindness, generosity, forgiveness and compassion, we do have a major problem to solve. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:19, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
ps: I agree that the term was likely not meant for me, but I don't want to see it applied to any editor or group, - I love my recent label "Fräulein Kriminelle" (my talk). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:22, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
In a general sense, one could quite easily make the case that the most toxic personality on WP is Jimmy Wales. Eric Corbett 23:26, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Eric Corbett, I've never voted to ban you. More than once I've voted against banning you. I did, regretfully, vote to exclude you from one aspect of project governance (RfA), for reasons discussed in findings in that case. You would at liberty to seek modification of that restriction if you were prepared to participate in that process in a less acid-tongued fashion in the future (and I use the subjunctive because I anticipate you would have no such intention). Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:42, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
I apologize to everyone. That last sentence contained far too many consecutive prepositional phrases. I cringe when I reread it myself. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
As you correctly anticipate, I have absolutely no intention of appealing anything, ever; in fact I've never even bothered to appeal a block. The RfA process is what it is, and nothing I nor anyone else can say would be likely to improve it now. Eric Corbett 00:35, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
"The optimist feels we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is so." And with regard to RfA we have few remaining optimists. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
That sums it up nicely for me. Eric Corbett 00:44, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't want to see the term applied to any editor, which includes JW. --Fräulein Kriminelle --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:58, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Neither do I, but he who lives by the sword dies by the sword ... what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander ... and all that jazz. Eric Corbett 00:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Tunnel Railway[edit]

Hi Iridescent,

I found a better image for the lead and main page blurb for the Tunnel Railway article. I hope you like it. Congratulations on getting the article featured and up on the main page! I am concerned about the statement that the railway was opened "to connect tourist attractions and shops near Ramsgate harbour with the new railway main line at Dumpton Park." This statement appears in the lead and on the main page, but not in the body of the article, and there is no source for this statement. Tourist attractions and shops near Ramsgate harbour are not mentioned in the article beyond the lead, at least not in connection with the opening of the railway. Do you know of a source that can be added for this statement?

Neelix (talk) 18:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

It's all in the body text and cited: By 1933 Merrie England, now under the ownership of Ramsgate Olympia, had become extremely popular, and Ramsgate Olympia began to lobby the Southern Railway to reopen the line through the tunnel, with a new junction station between Dumpton Park and Broadstairs. However, the Southern Railway rejected the proposal as too costly and impractical. Ramsgate Olympia and the Southern Railway were keen to make the attractions near the harbour accessible from the railway main line and to provide a service from the seafront to the greyhound stadium at Dumpton Park. The two companies eventually agreed on a scheme by which a new line would use the 780 yards (710 m) of the tunnel nearest the beach, before branching off into a new 364-yard (333 m) tunnel to emerge at a new station at Hereson Road, a 250-yard (230 m) walk from Dumpton Park station. I'd need to dig out a copy of Harding if you need the exact source wording (I do have it around somewhere, but I'd have to hunt for it.) None of this is contentious (I hope)—a passenger railway isn't built for any reason other than that the builder assumes there will be passengers. This passed FAC back in the days of "cite at the end of the chunk of information being referenced", rather than "cite every sentence"—you can safely assume that every fact in the version which passed FAC is cited to the first reference to follow it. (You can also very safely assume that given the number of vultures circling me, if I had made an untrue claim anywhere someone would gleefully have jumped on it long ago.)
Thanks for digging out the image of the opening. (I'm not sure who thought the plastic horse was a good idea, it has to be said.) – incredibly toxic personality 18:52, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
@Neelix: OK, found it: exact wording of the original:
By 1933, "Merrie England" was becoming very popular and Ramsgate Olympia, Ltd., was founded as a private company to take over the running of the enterprise from Thanet Amusements Ltd. The new company decided that the disused tunnel which had been sealed up after the track was removed should now be put to good use. […] The company finally decided that some form of 'light' rail connection via the tunnel would provide a good link with the Dumpton Park area where the greyhound track was proving prey popular plus also providing a service with Dumpton Park Station. (Harding, Peter A. (2005). The Ramsgate Tunnel Railway. Woking: Peter A. Harding. pp. 7–8. ISBN 0952345897. ) "Merrie England" has already been defined (and sourced) as a collection of tourist attractions earlier in the article. – iridescent 18:12, 21 August 2014 (UTC)