User:JMBell/Lost Library/Archive1

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Archive #0001 Talk page April 16 - June 6 A.D. 2005


And hello to you too, JMBell. Shall I take your questions one by one? 1) I am indeed 16. 2) No, I'm not yet a sysop, but if you want to nominate me ;) 3) Um, one at a time, I guess. Actually, no, I use Mozilla Firefox's tabbed browsing. That's the key. 4) If you say so. I didn't think so myself, but you clearly have all the answers. 5) Yep, I have a lot of time. It's called revising for exams ;). 6) You assume I do manage. How do you know I'm not totally insane, addicted to Wikipedia, do nothing else, survive on Doritos and Easter eggs, and go around with a chainsaw when taking a WikiBreak? 6) The fact that I am answering these questions would imply, on a biological level, that I have a life. On a social level, you'd better ask my girlfriend. That I don't have one is beside the point. No offence taken, and welcome to Wikipedia... Smoddy (tgeck) 19:51, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, Smoddy, I believe you, as the speed of your reply supports your claim. I suppose you froze your Easter eggs into a near-absolute-zero hibernating state, as you are still able to eat them by now. Or you boiled them to a superhigh temperature to rid them of the bacteria. Or they are unusually resistant to all kinds of bacteria. You should take care that you do not eat Clostridium botulinum along with them, or Wikipedia will lose a great contributor. The fact that you are answering me quite normally implies that you are not insane, as does your posts on such places as the Help Desk. Your social life would be tremendously interesting to analyze, like my brother's. He spends entire days in front of his computer. Do you come from Germany, by the way? Your surname sounds distinctly German. I would suppose that every little thing you pick up at school, you post on Wikipedia (or it could always be vice versa :)). I find Firefox's tabbed browsing a bother, but as they say, to each his own. I must say, if you're addicted to Wikipedia, it would be a great gift to humanity. Imagine, a man (rather boy) like you pulling out all the weeds in the garden. How responsible. Do you specialize in pulling out the typos, opinions, vandals, or others? Surviving on Doritos is a marvelously unique way to sustain yourself. Not even the strongest man on Earth could do that. I say, the wonders of youth are amazing. Which university did you say you want to go to? And what will you take up? Just a bit curious, if you mind answering, don't bother answering then. No offence meant. Thanks for the welcome. JMBell 20:23, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Smoddy's Easter egg preservation method: go on holiday for a fortnight. They'll still be there when you get back! I shall do my very best to be immune to Clostridium, if you say so. Not being a microbiologist, I haven't the first clue what I just said :). Your judgement of my sanity very happily reflects my own, so thanks! And I am very happy that my Help Desk contribution is appreciated. As for my social life, I can only say: thank goodness for MSN Messenger. I don't come from Germany, no, though my name does, as you point out. Your vice versa is quite right, by the way. Wikipedia is a far better learning source. Well, I regularly edit with 10 windows open at a time, on various policy and guideline pages, so my editing does tend to be a little slow, but Firefox speeds it up. Maybe you should look at Wikipedia:Wikipediholic, which is very instructive on my disorder. I guess the next step on that analogy would be to give me admin status and let me catch and kill (overreaction? maybe) those little pests, the aphids if you will, that come and ruin the beautiful garden of Wikipedia. Opinions and vandals are the most fun, I find, but correcting grocers' apostrophes are also fun (see User:Smoddy#Tasks for my somewhat sad targets). OK, OK, I eat Indian curries as well. Occasionally. ;) Well, Oxford by preference, Exeter or Edinburgh next. Arabic would be my ideal (I've been holidaying in Sinai in Egypt) Well, curiosity never hurt anyone (other than the cat), and I don't mind answering at all. Anyway, cheers. Back to not-real life. Smoddy (tgeck) 21:21, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Your preservation method must be very effective. I leave my Easter eggs for a week, and when I get back, boy, you should see them (or smell them ;)). Even when cryogenically frozen, they still rot. Weird. Now Clostridium botulinum is a highly dangerous bacterium which produces a toxin so fatal, that one dies within 24 hours of ingesting it. It paralyzes the muscles, esp. of the lungs and heart. That's where they get Botox from. The substance of your lessons must be somewhat questionable if you find Wikipedia a better learning tool. Good luck on your entrance exams into Oxford (if you have to take any, I'm unfamiliar with the school system in G.B.). As an aside, what word do over half of Oxford graduates spell wrongly? Give up? The answer is "wrongly", of course. I know, it's a somewhat lame joke, but it's the only one I have in context. :) I've always wanted to go to Egypt. Love the pyramids and the ancient culture. Are there many terrorists there? I read an article that said they disembowel tourists (esp. in Luxor). Well, I guess that's it for now. Back to my analyzation of Wikipedia. If I have any questions that aren't covered by the FAQs, can I ask you for help? Sorry to bother you (if you're bothered) again. :) See you around, Smoddy. JMBell 14:01, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Clearly so. I'll do my best to avoid the clostridium, sounds nasty! On the other hand, it could be a reflection of Wikipedia's excellence! Nah, no entrance exams: it all depends on school grades. I'll probably take a year out to give me my best chance of getting in. The only entrance exams we have are for law and medicine. I'm guessing that joke works as well for Harvard, Yale, Princeton, or Seoul... I'm afraid I've been in the Sinai, in Dahab. I've been diving.  :))) I didn't see any disemboweling, no... Sure, ask away. I've been here quite a while now, so I know my way around. Ask whatever you like. Just one suggestion at the moment: when you're on a talk page, you can precede each paragraph with a number of colons. This indents the text, so giving the conversation some structure, as you can see from how I've organised this one. Tara for now (how British!), Smoddy (tgeck) 15:06, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, Smoddy! At the moment I'm analyzing Wikipedia and might not have questions for some time. One thing's bothering me though: that article I was talking about on the help desk (Across_the_River_and_Into_the_Trees) which was an abridged version of an external source. It was originally placed by an anon (IP 68.something, I forgot) and was subsequently edited by several users, who did not alter its form. It's mostly the same as the orig, but with a few words changed or moved around or whatnot. It looks like plagiarism to me, but I'm not sure. I edited it a bit, but it seems as if I added more "plagiarized" material (horror of horrors). What would be the custom when encountering this sort of thing? And what would be the custom in friendly discussions (like this one), reply on the sender's page or the recipient's? I mean, our discussions can't always be quantum-entangled. :) See you around, Smoddy! JMBell° 19:30, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi again. Firstly, in regard to that article, it doesn't appear (to me) to be a copyright violation. I can't actually find any text which appears in both places, or at least not significant portions. It is poorly written, but doesn't (to me) seem to be a violation. In future, as you asked, copyright stuff can be noted at Wikipedia:Copyright problems, by using the {{copyvio}} syntax with the source URL. Generally, it's nice to keep a conversation flowing. I personally don't like breaking up conversations by separating them between user talk pages, so I either keep them going on one page or on both. It depends on my energy levels. I shall keep this convo solely on your page now. The problem with this is that it necessitates keeping the other user's page on your watchlist, which can result in an out-of-control watchlist (like mine – 850 pages and growing). See Wikipedia:Talk page for more infomation on the matter. Anyway, must dash. Cheers, Smoddy (tgeck) 19:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)


This conversation is not yet fully transcribed.

Cheers for the support; that's very kind. I'm glad I've been a help :). I'll have more to say later, I'm sure. Oh, and I think I preferred your first version :p. --Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 16:19, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You're very welcome. Your help is always appreciated, I must say (although it's somewhat obvious :p). Hoping to see you soon as a sysop exterminating all the pests in the Beautiful and Colourful Park of Wikipedia :). In reply to your statement, first version of what exactly? I've been editing my message to you and my userpage and my articles and whatnot, and I'm not quite sure what you're talking about (I have a pretty accurate guess, though, but I just want to be sure). Do you eat rabbit and pork? :) --JMBell° 18:23, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I meant the very effusive message you left and struck out. I think that was what you meant, no? Rabbit and pork is cockney rhyming slang for talk. It is the root of the term to rabbit – do you have that term in New Jersey? --Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 22:08, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it was. I have heard the phrase "to rabbit" before; however, I didn't know it came from "rabbit and pork". Please excuse my ignorance. Although I know fairly much about the British Isles, my knowledge of the dialects (as well as slang) is somewhat crude. Thanks for the explanation :). BTW, what tags should I put when uploading a picture? --JMBell° 12:26, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi again JMBell (btw, is there a more personal way of referring to you?). Thanks for what you said, I'll do my best to do what is expected of me. 32 is great, but not that special: Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Fvw2. You'll see me getting into a bit of a muddle with my voting... I don't think, in reference to the above comment, that an American not knowing the intricacies of Cockney rhyming slang is "ignorance"! Actually, I don't think many Britons would. I just happen to have a Cockney father (how I ended up in South Wales is anyone's guess). Anyway, thanks again for your kind words. In reference to the picture, I generally simply use {{gfdl}} to keep matters simple. Another would be {{PD-user)) if you want to release the photo into the public domain. I much prefer the GFDL. Cheers, Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 22:33, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, call me James. Never, ever, call me Jamie (it's a personal thing, see). That would be most humiliating. Anyway, you're welcome. Try not to burn out so quickly like poor Frank, if that's his name. It'd be useless if you were nominated and then left after a month or so. Take it easy, but do the best that you can. Thanks for the copyright tip. Just got in a bit of a problem with copyright and so, but fixed it up already. Cockney rhyming slang looks (and sounds) interesting; maybe I'll analyze it someday. Do you speak Welsh, btw? I know it sounds stupid, but who knows? :) Anyway, gotta go. Till next time - JMBell° 23:53, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
LOL. I won't burn out. I have the bug, good and proper. I'll take a ball and chalk to the rub-a-dub to have a Ruby Murray and a pig's ear with the dustbin lids and the trouble and strife. I'll pay with a Gregory Peck, then toddle off down the frog and toad, say hallo to the Johnny Hopper. Back at the Mickey Mouse, I'll climb the apples and pears for a good night's kip. And no, I cannot speak Welsh, beyond borei dar (sp – good morning) and araf (slow; it's on all the road signs). Nor do I want to. Calling an Englishman a Welshman (or vice versa) is like calling a Canadian an American New Zealander an Australian. --Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 11:17, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the sample. Will translate. Please tell me if it's correct if you have time. I wonder what an Englishman like you is doing in South Wales. Why did you move (or why are you living) there, if you don't mind my asking. Is your mother or any of your relatives Welsh? Or are you studying at a boarding school? (Of course, you are not obliged to answer any of these questions if you do not want to or feel like it) In any case, it's really puzzling. At least you can speak English, and that's what matters. After all, there is no Welsh Wikipedia (or is there). :) No offence meant. Good luck once again, Smoddy. Cheers - JMBell° 20:29, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And it would appear I am an admin! Hooray. I promise to use my powers for evil, not good. As to how I ended up in Wales: you'd do better to use tarot. I certainly don't know. I am at a boarding school, but I don't board. cy:Hafan. None taken. Takes more than that to give me offence. Cheers, and thanks again, Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 21:36, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'll take a walk to the pub to have a curry and a beer (no big) with the kids and the wife. I'll pay with a check, then toddle off down the road, say hallo to the copper (=policeman – do you use copper?). Back at the house, I'll climb the stairs for a good night's kip. The fiend comes when you have the second word taken off, giving I'll take a ball to the rub-a, to have a Ruby and a pig's... You are right, Welsh is an appalling language. I promise not to delete you! Or any of your pages... Ta for the vote; I'm really pleased at the level of support I got. Anyway, tara. Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 16:07, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)


Image deletion warning The image Image:Image(201).jpg has been listed at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images. If the image's copyright status cannot be verified, it will be deleted. If you have any information on the source or licensing of this image, please go there to provide the necessary information.

--Burgundavia 22:59, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)


  • Thanks for your adivce.
  • The major problem lies in the fact that only a portion of the article content is contributed by me. I do not see much gramatical errors, the styling are much better. Never mind about that; forget about the "gcheck" template; it is a trival matter.
  • However, what made me extremely concerned is that by reviewing the standard of the Zanskar article, it is unacceptable. I have explained to Mel, but however hard I explained, it seems that 60% of the it fell on deaf ears with the remaining 40% needs a long, exhausting explanations and reverts to get him convinced. I do not intend to provoke him, but in comparison with Sikkim, Zanskar is much poorer in terms of styling, sentence construction and language usuage, and that is my main concern. I cannot force him to help me ractify it, but he has showed a lack of participation not by finding another person that can replace me to ractify the article standard, as it really needs polishing. If you do not understand, go to Wikipedia:Pushing to 1.0, Wikipedia:Featured articles
  • I never admitted that my English is superior, but it is at least at an passable, sometimes good standards, which all depends on my mood. To prove to you, look at how a cleanup Lahul and Spiti, at least by its styling. --Tan 23:17, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Lahul and Spiti[edit]

Nice work!

If you do have the time and patience, could you possibly also clean-up the Kinnaur article?

You will find the major issues I have with this article in its talk-page.

Given the grief that Mr Tan has already caused me with the Zanskar article, I am loath to correct this article myself. (and it would only add french-english to the chinese-english that Mr Tan slapped over the original Indian english). --Moumine 22:37, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Regarding Mr Tan[edit]

I'm afraid that nothing seems to get through to this editor. Despite clear evidence to the contrary, he believes himself not only to have an adequate (even a good) command of English, but to be in a position to criticise others, and to gauge the standard of an article. I've presnted him on at least three occasions with a breakdown of his numerous grammatical and spelling errors, and others have done the same, but he simply ignores us. I'm giving him one last chance; after that, the only option will be to open an RfC, and hope that that experience will bring him to his senses. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:54, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As you'll probably have seen, I've now opened Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mr Tan. I think that it's best to post there, and to break off arguments with Mr Tan on his Talk page or here. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:24, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for your message. If Mr Tan begins to make bad edits on Zanskar, he can be rveerted. If he makes good edits, then they can stay. I think that, until there's a problem, the page should stay open. Let's see if the RfC has any efect on the situation. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 18:45, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Regarding Myself[edit]

Nice try, but no, I am swiss.

Btw, I did some more work on Lahul and Spiti (halas concurrently with Mel Etitis) but it really is an up-hill struggle. Not only is the syntax deplorable, but the facts are dubious and the article construct is a catastrophy (repetitions under different headings, contents do not match the headings...) and the same goes for kinnaur --Moumine 00:12, 1 May 2005 (UTC)


All right, I will sit back and watch first, doing nothing even an edit that doesn't suit my taste. I let you all do everything, but hopefully finish it by middle May. When you have finished, please inform me, and I will see what kind of satisfactory work you all produce. If it is not above standard, I am afraid that I will have to ractify your sentences. To judge how a Singaporean writes his sentences, please go to User:Huaiwei to judge on me as well.

I'm telling you:

  • There is no progress on Zanskar since the last few days. I want the styling something like Sikkim.
  • Try to break down sentences by using commas and other signs rather than using words.
  • Reduce the usuage of brackets if possible (Writing storybooks uses little brackets, and I don't accept too much of it)
  • There is no problem regarding the geographical facts of Tsushima. I want you to change it back. They are not isles, but Islands.

For your information, my first language is English, followed by Chinese. My command of english is not as bad as you think. --Tan 19:52, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

To Mr Tan: 1. Sikkim is OK, though its language is unencyclopædic at times, tending towards the tourist brochure. However, first, baldly stating what you want (in a way that sounds very much like a command, especially after "I'm telling you") is not good manners, and secondly, there's no reason for every article to be organised in the same way. 2. & 3. You must stop giving other editors instructions in how to write English; your command of English is simply too poor for such instructions to be useful. 4. Look up "isle" in a dictionary: it means "island". My only objection to it is that it's rather archaic/poetic.

To JMBell: Thanks for the information. You don't have to sign anywhere else on the RfC; each person either signs the summary with which she agrees, or adds a new summary. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:23, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

My own feeling about the RfC is that Mr Tan is simply demonstrating the case against him with all his flailing about and accusations. It's probably best to leave it alone unless he does anything serious like libelling you. I've just added another bit of evidence from his editing session today, adn you could do the same if you see anything — but I intend to leave my comments to stand. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:33, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Tan user page[edit]

Before I start, perhap's I'd better mention that: A) I am not a puppet of any sort, B) I have no ulterior interest in this matter, and C) Before I checked a random change on the 'Recent Changes', I have had no involvement whatsoever with Tan or any thing he has edited, or the RFC, or indeed this whole mess. That said, I don't particularly care for you/your sock puppet (or at least, so Sir James' page assures me) embedding invisible comments onto Tan's very User Page. That's not its purpose. The Talk page is there for a reason. I suggest you use it. If you have no particular objection, I shall move your comment into the talk page under a new heading. Please reply. --maru 21:05, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

And incidentally, I've done some formatting here. (It's a habit.)
/me is much mollified/gratified/obliged. Now, don't you be doing that agin', you naughty person. --maru 22:59, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Problem... Resolved!
I'll give you two hints: I live on an area adjacent to the city Sinatra memorably sung about; and our local baseball team is quite... foul. (I'm sure you can get it.) --maru 15:10, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
That's the general area, yeah. But we usually refer to ourselves more specifically as?... (Think back to the clues) --maru 21:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
Close enough. But now I'm off to edit Dune- Slate mentioned that article in one of their articles. --maru 11:27, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


Would you mind explaining this revert? [1] Thank you.--Huaiwei 11:22, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

You make it sound as thou I chose to have the conversation on my page. My conduct is well explained, and well supported by the disamg policy, and no one above has been able to explain their conduct in comparison. You are coming in with preconceived notion that Mel is somehow automatically right. How familiar are you with the use of the word Nanyang in Singapore? I would like to see that demonstrated, and if this persists, I will list if for page protection. Again, I express my utter surprise that an admin can engage in a revert war.--Huaiwei 11:29, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


Quote from User talk:Nanshu.

Before you make large edits, please discuss them first on the article's talk page and wait until a consensus is reached.

Yeah. I did discuss them first. But something that can be regarded as a consensus cannot be reached unless others join discussion. I really welcome your comments on each point I presented. --Nanshu 15:00, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Votes for Deletion[edit]

if proposing something for WP:VfD then you need to follow the instructions at Template:VfDFooter. I have sorted Raymond feilner for you. --Henrygb 11:03, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

English Garden[edit]

Hi, James. I wasn't entirely sure what you were asking, so I had a look at the page and fixed the double redirect (you can do this: just click on the link immediately below the title of the target of the redirection and edit that page as normal). Incidentally, if you want to have a redirect deleted, go to WP:RFD. Cheers, Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 20:44, 6 May 2005 (UTC)


Hello. I am here to inform you that a user, by the name of User:JMBeIl, is trying to impersonate you. The vandal copied your user pages and everything else. This vandal has done so to a few users, so this is (somewhat) an ongoing problem. If you have any questions, come see me. Zscout370 (talk) 21:21, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

  • FYI: I did not name him. User:Chanting Fox did. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 01:27, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
    • This is part of a problem, since a small group of users were hit, and your name has been used about three or four times, but with different spellings. Zscout370 (talk) 02:02, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


Please do note that my response is imcomplete and maybe biased. I'm telling the plain truth, on every detail of the case. I will also tell on my way of my styling of English. I do not like Mel's usuage of English, and our fight is caused by our our differences in our English, not anything else. I will also explain why Zanskar is not acceptable, following which I will copy-edit it. Mel has abused me of my right to edit, in which he should have given the right to let me edit the article before he swerves into action.

I am not going to let this matter rest until everything is solved. Never for the sake of wikipedia and dignity.

Also, I have seen that you have strange features in your english, ommiting necessary words which makes it look strange. The most notable of all is that you have a tendency to use brackets in a wholesale sentence, which is not deemed appropriate for a good article. Brackets are not encouraged, but if they were to be used, they are only meant for short phrases and individual words such as

Example: I am going to Kinnaur (Kinnner) and Korea (Koria).

I hope you understand the use of brackets. More to come in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Mr Tan. Do not touch the artiles for the time being unti I give a prper explanation.

Tan 09:45, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

This boils down to one fact: Let me explain and sort out everything at the Rfc, preferably within a time span of ten days with effect from tommorow (It's nearly midnight now in Singapore). I see strange features in your english, especially in the usage of English.

Furthermore, passable English doesn't means good english. What I want is an article which lets all readers comfortable to read.

Pass this message to Moumine as well.

Tan 00:02, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Tan again[edit]

I think that protection may be the way to go eventually, but there are a few of us able to revert his peculiar butchery of that article, so perhaps we should wait to see if that does the trick for the moment. I cetainly can't protect it, as I'm too havily involved, but anyone can ask for protection at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:19, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I see that Mr Tan is still leaving his aggressive and ill-mannered messages on your page; mmine too. By all means bring in extra help; the motre people who know about this and are willing to help the better. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:27, 10 May 2005 (UTC)


Just want to mention that I've replied to Bell on my talk page. Pong! --maru 21:00, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

Put my summary in Outside Views section. If it is too short/long/wronglocation, just mention it on my talk. --maru 16:32, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Singapore Wikipedians[edit]

Hi James,

While I understand that you have quite a number of issues to deal with my fellow Singapore Wikipedians, may I request you to be more amicable and friendly towards them. There is little point in being so hard up on them.

I shall assume good faith on your continued dealings with them, and I hope that you will do so as well. :)

- Best regards, Mailer Diablo 13:35, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi James, thanks for the reply. One was Huaiwei indeed, although I'm glad to hear that the matter is now at rest. If I am correct, Mel also had a few incidents with other users, which I hope it should be ressolved by this time. Another that I'm still quite concerned about is Tan. I know you are quite upset over his spelling and grammar, but (to be blunt) your comments on him seem too harsh.
You may be interested to know that Asians (me included) see pride and shame as an important part of culture, which they will strongly defend it at all costs so "fighting fire with fire" is a bad idea. Oh yes, I hope you didn't have any impression that Singaporeans are generally "poor in English" (let me do if you feel so, I suddenly thought of this because I was surprised hours ago someone from UK commented on my blog that my English was also atrocious over a few errors) because of the notoriety of Singlish in other English-speaking countries.
- Best regrads, Mailer Diablo 16:29, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
That's a long one ;) I need a bit of time to digest the message.
I may or may not respond to the RfC, depending on if I am able to express my views clear enough (because I just can't seem to find the correct choice of words to bring my point across the last time round in outside view and seem to end up looking like immaturity).
- Best regards, Mailer Diablo 14:00, 12 May 2005 (UTC) :)


If you wish, Mr Bell, it is the fault with your POV.

Firstly, I see few problems with my English, which includes occasional (accidental) spelling errors. In fact, you are more erronous, especiallyt in the wrong usuage of brackets and paragraphing. I am not condemning you, but the fact is the fact. I will explain in the RfC.

Secondly, I would like to remind you that you should not remove appropriate relavant facts such as those of Wally Kaname Yonamine. Since Yonamine is a Japanese American, so be the ategory in it be there? Why remove?

Thirdly, the fault lies in you and Mel in the fact that both of you are people who are extremely impatient. Just becuase seeing that Zanskar seems depreciated in terms of article quality in your POV while I'm copy-editing, that doesn't mean it will look bad after I have done everything. Furthermore, I am not finished, so why revert for no reason? This is hoolinganism. I cannot control you on protecting the page or blocking me, but I will do in accordance to the right ways. To me, if the article needs copyediting to me, so be it. Let me finish up everything before you proceed.

Also, I would rather you address me as Mr Tan rather than all the Sirs. Thanks. --Tan 15:00, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Tan: I am so astonied at this I simply must jump in: you yet persist in your sad delusion that your English is at all accpetable, and indeed, superior to that of many a native? It is not. Deal. (I feel justified in giving this assesment since I am a third generation native English speaker, scored an 800 on the verbal portion of the SAT, recevied like scores on other tests, and am looked upon as an authority when it comes to vocabulary due to being a bookworm. So I think I know what I am talking about here.)
Mr. Bell: I suggest you add Tan's words to the RFC as an example of his incorrigble arrogance. In fact, you are more erronous, especiallyt indeed! --maru 10:18, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Wee Kim Wee[edit]

Hi, I appreciate your participation in the discussion and trying to calm things down. In the discussion you stated: "FYI, the Pope was not cremated and so has no problems with being "interred." Irrelevant support above, please provide something that could help us more. ". While, here is a list of articles in wikipedia, with the word "interred" : User:Vsion/temp. You can look at them to see the scope of usage of the word. (Mel's argument of genteelism and journalistic-English, does not seem to hold.) Some of the usage in the list involved cremation. If you wish, I can point out the exact articles for you later; but right now I feel that we are presented with a shifting goalpost by Mel.

As mentioned before, I'm not involved in the other "debate"; but would like to know your honest opinion on this specific issue. Also, just out of curiosity, did you read the article in full, and understand what the article is about? or have you just look at the controversial part? Vsion 17:16, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Mr Tan's temp page[edit]

Allow me to interject regarding a "/temp" page. I have used the /temp page to create a few of my Featured Articles. My current (its paused) work is on the Maharashtra page. I put up a notice requesting it not to be edited. Most editors accede to my request and any issues on the topic are commented on on the temp's talk page. Once finished, I copy the same to the main article, deleting the temp page. I use the temp page to compare the changes to the original [and often admire my work ;)]. Its perfectly legal to do this. Allow Tan to do what he wants with the temp page. Once he finishes editing, sufficient copyediting can be done to the article to improve its English.  =Nichalp (talk · contribs)= 18:05, May 12, 2005 (UTC)


Well, I'm much too modest (and wedded to anonymity here) to recommend my own work, but I'd suggest the following:

  • Thomas Nagel, What Does It All Mean? (this is really for pre-university students, but it's very clear, and I'd say that it was interesting for all ages)
  • Simon Blackburn, Think (more substantial than the Nagel, and aimed at a slightly more advanced audience)
  • Peter J. King, One Hundred Philosophers (as the title indicates, it's mainly about individual philosophers, but there's material on topics, schools, different cultures' philosophies, and philosophy in general)

The journal Think is also good (its Web site – [2] – has archives of some of its past articles).

I hope that that's useful. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:23, 13 May 2005 (UTC)


For future references make unprotection requests at WP:RFPP. I'm willing to try unprotecting this article. I just gave Tan a 12 hour block, that might cool him down for a little while. Hopefully some sanity can return to that article. BrokenSegue 18:53, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Mr Tan[edit]

Good message regarding Wee Kim Wee; I've just added User:Vsion to the list of editors, as he's been very much involved on the main article. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:25, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I understood, and accept my shortcomings if I can detect and analyse any. However, my behaviour inevitably slips away a little, especially along a long dispute like this. Forgive me for my "slip-away" behaviour, and if you know my character, my English seems bad on the first wave of cleanup, but it gets better after waves and waves of cleanup, even it may be done by me, for the slower I do things, the more perfect the things can be done. The matter is really going downhill; I don't want that to happen anymore.

Tan 10:50, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Whatever You Say[edit]

Refer to header. DrippingInk 23:15, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Once again, uh-huh. DrippingInk 12:53, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Free will[edit]

Hmmm... I'm sceptical (as freedom of the will surely isn't the sort of thing that can be empirically tested), but I'd be interested in the reference, thanks. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 15:52, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the text from the article. I'm not convinced, because I think that the article misunderstands the problem of free will. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:33, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm back[edit]

Hi. Thanks for your wishes. My reports are now clear and so won't have to take those horrible medicines. Regards,  =Nichalp (talk · contribs)= 06:11, May 17, 2005 (UTC)


I have witnessed that you have given me a short grammar exercise, and currently I'm doing the work exercise that you have given me, and I will not edit too actively on the articles. (See my response on Mel's page as well)

Forget about the response that I've planned. I feel that arbitration is more suitable for his case (you and Moumine have to be included if I ever open one for your involvement). I have also witnessed copyediting work in Lahul and Spiti and Kinnaur, in which I'm quite satisfied. However, the article standard of Zanskar is still not quite up to standard of the above articles.

Tan 19:34, 21 May 2005 (UTC)


Original version:

Exercise cautioun in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let not this blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strove for high ideals, and everywere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the councel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strenght of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be genteel with yourself. You are a children of the universe, no less than the tres and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is cleare to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Edited version:

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let not this blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strove for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is just as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counseling of the years, gracefully surrendering the possessions of youth.

Nurture the strength of your own spirit to shield yourself from any sudden misfortunes. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginations, for most fears are born out of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a children of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, there is no doubt that the universe is expanding as it should.

Here are a few of the reasons of why I changed the English of certain parts:

Spelling errors:

  • cautioun should be caution.
  • councel should be counseling
  • tres should be trees

Context errors:

  • ...the universe is unfolding as it should. changed to

...the universe is expanding as it should.


If you notice, by scientific logic, I have never heard of the Universe unfolding, only expanding.

  • things of youth sounds redundant; possesions is a better alternative

etc..(See for yourself if you have more questions to ask about my changes)


Tan 19:44, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Correction on the response on the RfC. I will try to write a response, but probably a short and brief one.

Tan 20:23, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Please be patient for my answers: I promise you that I will answer them up to a few days' time.

Tan 03:05, 21 May 2005 (UTC)


  1. You are a children of the universe --> You are the children of the universe
  2. ..many persons strove for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism. --> ..many people are striving for high ideals, and you can see heroism everywhere in life.
  1. Nurture the strength of your own spirit to shield yourself from any sudden misfortunes.---> Nurture the strength of your own spirit to shield yourself from any misfortunes.

Tan 10:31, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration and Mr Tan[edit]

I've asked a member of the arbitration committee to review the situation, including the RfC, in order to advise me on whether arbitration is the best next step. There may be some intermediate course of action that should be followed. I had thought of mediation, but I don't think that that is appropriate in this case. As soon as he comes back to me, I'll let you know what he says. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:34, 21 May 2005 (UTC)


Hello! Are you still editing this? I thought that I'd join in, but spotted your notice at the last moment. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:35, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I've just tidied the first paragraph a bit, and added some Wikilinks. It's all yours now. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:52, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
When the history shows that an article marked "inuse" hasn't been edited for a while, the template's liable to be removed (and even if it isn't, editors are likely to consider that it lacks its conventional force). It's best to remove it when you're not actually engaged in editing, so that it doesn't lose its force when you are (see Mr Tan's current tantrum because it was removed from two articles that hadn't been touched for a while). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:28, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Temp pages[edit]

Replying to your query on the temp pages. I've shared my view on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Temp pages. You may read follow up there. Regards,  =Nichalp (Talk)= 19:36, May 22, 2005 (UTC)


Concerning about the following exercises; I'm sorry for the delay, but I have managed to answer your questions (though it is quite a challenge to me)

Questions    Answers (option)

2a           b

2b           c

1a           b

1b           a

1c           d

Also, please proceed to User Talk:Mr Tan#From Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#How to use talk if almost all passages of an article are disputed? to see my reply.


Come to User Talk:Mr Tan#Problem 2

Tan 20:39, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Mr Tan (again)[edit]

When Mr Tan does things like leaving the message on Jimbo Wales' page, the best thing to do is to ignore it; he does his case far more harm on his own than if others join in. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:34, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

With regard to Zossen, by the way, I removed the personal "in use" message. It's not so much that such things aren't really allowed (though they're not; there's a time-indexed "inuse" template that you might use instead, but that Mr Tan is trying to using it to justify his personal "don't touch" notices (though, as usual, he's got the wrong end of the stick). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:15, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I hope that everything's OK. Speak to you when you get back. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:05, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Seconded. We may have irritated each other, but at this point I'm not even feeling slightly grumpy. Enjoy your sojourn in the real world, but do come back in the forseeable future. -- Hoary 07:01, 2005 May 27 (UTC)


Thanks, Mr Bell, I have read your message. I will either leave now, or settle my dispute by and by before reconsidering on leaving. Anyway, please do not worry about me. Farewell.

Tan 15:17, 28 May 2005 (UTC)


I'm not sure if you're really going on a break (you've been saying that for a month now :) ). Anyways, if you do decide to escape to the middle ages without the internet, I wish you a happy vacation. Regards,  =Nichalp (Talk)= 08:01, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

Diplomats' Guild[edit]

I'll have a proper look at at later in the week, and get back to you. I hope that you're OK. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:32, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I hope that this may greatly help in disagreements and misunderstandings with User:Mel Etitis, especially Zanskar. Does your guild help in reconciling diplomatic relationships?

Tan 22:05, 2 June 2005 (UTC)

re "Wherefore"[edit]

Hello, we've never met before, but I just want to say that "wherefore" means not "where" but "why," as is shown by numerous Shakespearean plays other than Romeo and Juliet. JMBell° 12:04, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oh dear! I did know that, but somehow it slipped my mind. I very stupid now, especially considering the great depth I studied Romeo and Juliet in! Not that our attacking friends will be able to tell the difference... hehehe... Master Thief GarrettTalk 13:08, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hehe :) Quite right... Say, what do you think would happen if the attackers were a bunch of admins and a bureaucrat? Would Wikipedia survive the devastating attack? Not that I think these guys to be admins (of course they're not), but what if... JMBell° 20:12, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Um, er, um... nah, they'd just be banned. Very little would stop us forever short of Jimbo taking an axe to the servers. And even then we've got the Yahoo! backups... Master Thief GarrettTalk 01:52, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)