User talk:ÄDA - DÄP

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Hello, ÄDA - DÄP, and Welcome to Wikipedia!

Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking Button sig.png or Insert-signature.png or by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement.

Happy editing! SwisterTwister talk 15:53, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Getting started
Finding your way around
Editing articles
Getting help
How you can help

A page you started has been reviewed![edit]

Thanks for creating SM UB-143, ÄDA - DÄP!

Wikipedia editor Gbawden just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

You should add the WPSHIPS tag on the talk page in between double { brackets to add it to WikiProject Ships

To reply, leave a comment on Gbawden's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.

April to June 2014 MILHIST reviews[edit]

Wiki-stripe1.svg Military history reviewers' award
By order of the Military History WikiProject coordinators, for your work on the WikiProject's Peer, Good Article, A-Class and Featured Article Candidate reviews for the period April to June 2014, I am delighted to award you this Wikistripe. During this period you undertook three reviews. Without reviewers it would be very difficult for our writers to achieve their goals of creating high quality content, so your efforts are greatly appreciated. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 04:23, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Keep track of upcoming reviews. Just copy and paste {{WPMILHIST Review alerts}} to your user space

Hansjürgen Reinicke[edit]

I recently expanded the article. I value your feedback. Please let me know what I got wrong. Thanks MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I left some comments on the talk page. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 08:54, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

German Navy (Kriegsmarine) 2.0[edit]

We've discussed the topic at length before about a year and a half ago. Here's some of what was said then:

First, let me say that I have no sympathy whatever, in any way, for Nazism.
However, please note that:
 • There was never any organization officially called the "Nazi German Kriegsmarine," which is the way it is styled in numerous entries related to vessels of the WWII German Navy.
 • There is no accepted word in English called Kriegsmarine — which of course is German for, literally, "war navy" or more loosely, "military naval force."
 • No branch of the German armed forces in WWII officially included the word "Nazi" in their names, and officially there was never any country called "Nazi Germany," although the latter has become a convenient shorthand term among historians and journalists for Germany as it was in 1933-45.
 • The word "Nazi" itself was a slang contraction for National Sozialistische, in English, National Socialist — taken from the National Socialist German Workers Party (German: National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei), which was the only 'legal' (in Nazi terms) political party in Germany after mid-1933. (The true Socialists, similarly, had been known as Sozis.)
I think the terminology used to designate the German Navy in WWII should be changed in all cases to simply "the German Navy" out of historical verity, to avoid broad-brushing all members of the German Navy as "Nazis," and as a matter of linguistic equity. (Hitler himself is quoted in several biographies I've read as saying, supposedly humorously, "I have a Nazi air force, a Christian navy and an imperial army," or words to that effect.) This would be in line with references to "the U.S. Navy," "the British Navy," "the Italian Navy," "the Japanese Navy," etc. Everyone knows that during World War II Germany was run by Hitler and the Nazi Party, and I don't see any value in designating all vessels in the German Navy of that war as politically "Nazi."
Because of the extreme opprobrium rightly attached to the (originally slang) word Nazi — a result of the colossal scale and horrific character of Nazi crimes — Nazi is not a neutral term. Thus, to label the Germany Navy in WWII as "Nazi" does convey an extremely negative political judgment on a military organization that was not per se political, and whose tens of thousands of members included people of various political views.
Linguistic note: In the phrase Nazi German Kriegsmarine, the word "Nazi" is an adjective modifying "Kriegsmarine." It does not modify "Germany," and the word "German" also is an adjective modifying "Kriegsmarine." Thus, in grammatical terms, this phrase says that the "Kriegsmarine" was a specifically Nazi organization, which it was not. It was a military organization, termed in German die deutrsche Kriegsmarine — "the German (War) Navy."
It's possible to argue that "Nazi German" is a adjectival phrase. As such, one school of editing would hyphenate it as a compound modifier. But that doesn't eliminate the problem. The import of "Nazi German Kriegsmarine" remains to label the entire Germany Navy and everyone in it as perforce "Nazi." Which notion is false.
That said, I don't object to the phrase "Nazi Germany" because Germany in 1933-45 was run politically by Hitler and his psychopathic Nazi hierarchy — in the German phrase, the NS-Diktatur — which claimed and enforced exclusive power in the political realm. The phrase is well known in English historiography and elsewhere, for example in German as Nazideutschland. Not so "Nazi German Kriegsmarine."
I have never seen the phrase "Nazi German Kriegsmarine" used anywhere other than on Wikipedia. It is not one employed in Western historiography so far as have seen in 40-some years of reading. Here are a few examples from books I happen to have on hand:
Churchill, Winston S. Their Finest Hour. Houghton Mifflin, 1949, p. 594. "… paralyzed for the time being the Germany Navy in home waters."
Churchill, Winston S. The Grand Alliance. Houghton Mifflin, 1950, p. 42. "The German Navy was instructed to concentrate …."
Bullock, Alan. Hitler; A Study in Tyranny. Bantam (paperback), 1961, p. 532. "An acrimonious debate was conducted between the [German] Army and Navy…."
Ibid, p. 611. "Meanwhile, the [German] Navy had to be content with what it could scratch together…."
Ibid, p. 612. “Which neither the German Navy nor the Luftwaffe….”
Payne, Robert. The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler. Barnes & Noble, 1973, p. 374. "…the Graf Spee, one of the pocket battleships of the German Navy…."
Ibid, p. 375. "[Hitler] spoke about the incompetence of the German Navy…."
Ibid, p. 404. "The German Navy remained locked up…."
Ibid, p. 405. "… both the German Army and the German Navy begged…."
Kershaw, Ian. Hitler; 1936-1945 Nemesis. W.W. Norton, 2000, p. 58. "The [German] Navy was left alone."
Ibid, p. 276-77. "While there was express praise for the [German] navy…."
Ibid, p. 278. "… scarcely veiled criticism of army leaders set against praise for the Luftwaffe and the navy…."
Kershaw, Ian. The End; The Defiance and Destruction of Hitler’s Germany., 1944-1945. Penguin, 2011, p. 179 "The German navy sent help in rescue effort…. and, "… the German navy used an ice-breaker…."
Roberts, Andrew. The Storm of War. Harper-Collins, 2011, pp. 353-54. "When it actually began five years too early, the German Navy did not yet have…."
Ibid, p. 538. "The German invasion of Norway in April 1940 cost the German Navy dear…."
None of the above authors, from Churchill to Kershaw and Roberts, ever uses the phrase, "Nazi German Kriegsmarine" — althought Kershaw does refer simply to "the Kriegsmarine" in a couple of places.

Sca (talk) 20:47, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi again
  1. the term is "Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine" (note the difference)
  2. this term is used by academics and experts in the subject e.g. Dennis E. Showalter in Doing Naval History.p.132
  3. an alternative version is "German navy", e.g. used in Germany and the Second World War
  4. since 1994, "German Navy" has been the official English name of the "Deutsche Marine" previously known as "Bundesmarine"
  5. Whatever your intentions, you are not saying what you want to say using the phrase "German Navy" (Kriegsmarine) the way you do.
ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 04:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)