User talk:ARTEST4ECHO

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SEMI-RETIRED
This user is no longer very active on Wikipedia as of 17:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)).

Re WP:NFC#UUI #1 deletions[edit]

I've come across many images of mugshots that you have tagged for deletion due to being a violation of WP:NFC#UUI #1. So far I have deleted them because in these situations they are replaceable. That being said, it is not always the case that living persons have the ability to be replaced by free photos. There are cases, very very few however, where the person may be in a situation that it would be absolutely impossible for a free photo to be taken. For instance there was once a prisoner who was in solitary confinement for 23.5 of 24 hours per day. He only had interaction with his lawyer and one guard. Consensus determined at WP:NFCR that it was impossible for a free photo to be taken and the image was kept. The key, in these very rare situations, is to include these reasons in the FUR under the section for why it is not replaceable. After reading the above, you're probably thinking "why is this guy boring me by telling me something irrelevant." Really, I just want you to know that, as with everything non-free, we do not have any 100% hard and fast rules and there are always exceptions. I do not want you to get the wrong idea and start nominating the image for deletion just because the subject is alive. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 21:03, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Honesty, thank you for your input. However, I have to disagree with you as I have yet had a case where, after taking the image of any living person to WP:NFCR, even prisoners, that it wasn't deleted, even in cases like you describe. Unfortunately, WP:NFC#UUI #1 doesn't list what you describe as an exceptions to that rule. The only exception listed is "For some retired or disbanded groups, or retired individuals whose notability rests in large part on their earlier visual appearance, a new picture may not serve the same purpose as an image taken during their career, in which case the use would be acceptable."
You talk about cases of solitary confinement. Even in those case, the images I've seen put up for WP:NFCR were deleted. For example, all non-free versions of Osama bin Laden, someone who was deep in hiding for over a decade, were deleted until he died. Even the FBI most wanted poster was deleted because it was argued that the image couldn't have been made by a FBI agent due to him being in hiding. Even the FBI sending in a OTRS e-mail saying it was Public Domain, didn't stop it from being deleted.
Ironically, I personally think it is silly and I actually agree with you. There should be some exceptions to the rule. There are times that getting an free image is impossible. For example, two of three image of Mormon Fundamentalist leaders I uploaded, before I understood this rule, were deleted due to WP:NFC#UUI #1. I even uploaded them using the old upload method where Wikipedia automatically added the {{Replaceable fair use disputed}} template to images of all living people. The Admin who reviewed my uploads agreed with my logic that the person was unable to be photographed due to the secretive nature of the sects they belonged to. The images were then on Wikipedia for several years, only to be WP:NFCR and deleted for violation of WP:NFC#UUI #1. The fact that they were alive is all that mattered to the WP:NFCR admins. The only image to survive did so because the person died in the mean time.
However, I understand that deleting the images the way I did (using {{Replaceable fair use disputed}}) may have made you and others nervous. I will start using WP:NFCR again. I only felt it wasn't necessary because of several WP:NFCR cases that already decided that the images of prisoners, even those in solitary confinement, did not qualify for an exception. It seemed to be a wasted of the administrators time.
If you can think of a way to get Wikipedia to change this policy, I would be more than happy to support it. Again, I think there should be some way to make legitimate exceptions, without having them re-listed for WP:NFCR and deleted. However, I'm just a editor. --- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 16:21, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
There are a few specific things I want to respond to real quick. WP:NFCR has changed a bit in the past year. These days I'm about the sole admin who closes the discussions ad WP:NFCR. I am going to look through the archives, but I have closed at least two discussions in the past year where the outcome in a situation like this was that we could keep the file, but only if it would be truly impossible to take the photo and the FUR reflected this perfectly. I'm sorry I don't have examples on hand. Each case is specific to that situation and I can come up with good arguments both ways for these persons.
As for how you nominated them, {{Replaceable fair use}} (what I think you meant above) is fine, but I just think your wording of a unilateral "they're alive, so there must be free" is fair enough for speedy. Most of the ones you tagged didn't even have explanations as how there were not replaceable. That by itself is enough to speedy. You are more than welcome to nominate them for deletion or you are welcome to come to WP:NFCR. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 19:03, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Maxine Grimm[edit]

I'm curious as to how you know her and about her. I too live in Tooele and Mrs. Grimm has had a huge positive impact on our community. I also wish to thank you for creating her Wikipedia page, if indeed, you did. Sheks a wonderful lady and I'm happy to know, the World can now know this!

Justin — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.248.77.31 (talk) 17:04, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry I think you are confused. I didn't create her page, User:Spray787 did. I'm just the last editor, and my change was a typo correction and nothing more. --- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 17:51, 12 August 2014 (UTC)