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User talk:ARTEST4ECHO

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hi[edit]

Several citations at the bottom of the bio of the martyred Benjamin LeBaron say his Chihuahua hometown has a chapel and a presumably major portion of citizens there practice a form of Mormonism. Also I recall that the published-about-2010 "Patriarchs" tome (a citation below a couple of the church of the 1stborns articles), whose PhD author resided at the colonia while researching the sect, mentions its continued existence, with some of its adherents also then currently practicing plural marriage.--Hodgdon's secret garden

I agree that is is possible that there is a Latter Day saint type sect in the area, but none of the cited sources names the particular sect or even a sect at all. Are they Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Church of the Lamb of God, or some other sect. Additionally none of the cited sources say that Benjamin LeBaron is anything but a "community" leader, not a "religious" leader. I have read all the sources and none support the claim that a functioning sect is in the area. It seems to me that they are made up of a bunch of independent fundamentalist Mormons, with no particular affiliation.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 20:03, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
The Joel sect obviously exists. Janet Bennion styles herself in her publishing blurb as the scholarly expert on fundy mormonism. in her book she wrote that there were 2 factions in the area, Joel's tcotfbfullnessoftimes, which she studied, and a more reactionary one also nearby which didn't sanction contact with scholars such as her. Bennion estimated that both these factions together have adherents numbering in the thousands in Baja, chihuahua, and stateside. An estimate of maybe a few hundred in col. Lebanon and a like number elsewhere would thus be extremely conservative. Bennion's book is the only source that cites hard figures but there are many many news sources who have mentioned the chapel in col. lebaron and the mores of that community.--hodg
I'm sorry I don't see it. I read all of the sources and none of them specified which sect, or that any specific sect still exists. That is why Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times is listed a "Status" unknown. I'm not even sure who your refering to as none of them mention Molly Bennion. If she can be cited then by all mean cite her.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 21:05, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm a big confused, what are you trying to cite, that Benjamin LeBaron was a leader in a fundamentalist Mormon sect or that Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times is still active, or what?--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 21:13, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
on a smartphone right now (frowns). - the pointer to benji lebaron was simply to show news report speaking of the community's chapel and mores. nothinh about benji himself. the group is comparatively liberal though. for example community members utilize everyday contemporafy dress. in any case i just google book'ed Janet's desert patriarchy and cotfbofthefullnessoftimes is mentioned using its complete name 6 times. ( Eventually i may check and see if any other sect is named but I doubt it, since she only had access to the Joel group there.)--hodg
I'm back. -- Is there some citatation that indicates a lack of continuity between the churcn of the firstborn of the fullness of times pre- and post- the ervil lebaron holy war? or is the supposition its community became defunct merely a speculation by those who have never actually in fact studied this community?I've a special interest in this group owing to the coincience that I had visited (well, or that is my parents, bro-in-law, some of my sibs and I had) some what I'll term a "Joelite" family, then living in the LDS community of colonia dublan, a sister-wife and convert from out of mainstream Mormonism whom my mother know, when i was in jr high. Bennion's estimate of there being thousands of Joelites in mexico and the u.s seems well founded. Lol: They seemed huge on procreation...so I well imagine that within not only dublan but anyother number of other mexican census entities surrounding the now-over-a-thousand-and-a-half-strong village of colonia lebaron, which itself had been founded by Joel in the 1920s, there remain likely over a thousand baptised and confirmed members of Joelite lineage, (It might be hard to know for sure, though, since Ervilites may not like to widely advertise their status, eh? Still, from what I understand, the Ervilite heresy never was dominant, despite and/or because of various murders of ervil's rival Joelites even before the infamous assassination of patriarch/homeopath Allred in salt lake city. All obviously an extremely sad state of affairs...but, Bennion, in her book concentrated on the Joelite community as more recently existing.--hodgdon
Yes from 2010
The Primer, Helping Victims of Domestic Violence and Child Abuse in Polygamous Communities: Fundamentalist Mormon Communities (PDF), Utah Attorney General’s Office and Arizona Attorney General's Office, June 2006, retrieved June 29, 2010 
It reads "The group splintered after members committed a string of assassinations in the 1980's. Some families still live in Mexico and others are spread throughout the United States." So if the "group splintered" several sects may be in existence, but the Utah and Arizona Attorney Generals don't know what the status, or even name of, those sects is as of 2010. Additionally notice they refer to them as "families" still living in Mexico and the US. Never dose it say anything about a continuing sect past the 1980's.
However, the sequence of events that lead to the current state was
  1. The statement that the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times is still active was tagged as citation needed here. It never was. Then part of the statement was removed.
  2. You cited the existence using two sources here.
  3. However after reading those citation I felt didn't said what you said it was saying. For example your source even said "Many younger members have since discontinued the practice of polygamy.". So I tagged it again as citation needed here. Over a month later I changed the statement to "Status Unknown" because no citation was forthcoming.
The page has been that way since here.
I have no objection to citing the existence of this sect. I welcome it! I openly admit I have no knowleage one way or the other. However, the Utah and Arizona Attorney Generals clearly put the continued exstiance as a "Sect" in doubt. Nothing that has been supplied so far back up the existence of the sect past the 1980's, only the existence of a town. So, the "safe" way is to list is as "Status Unknown". I have no objection to changing that if a citation can be supplied. Yes Colonia LeBaron and even a group of link minded family members exists, but that is the Town and individuals, not a sect. It would be like saying the Pure Church of Christ sill exists because Kirtland, Ohio exists.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 13:34, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Oops! Sorry for such a belated reply, Artest!ARTEST4ECHO said, "I have no objection to citing the existence of this sect." - etc.

You indeed appear to have sterling source for lack of continuity within the parent, "...Fullness of Times" in the face of the trials (possibly the "spiritual opportunities," for us to be NPOV) brought on by E. LeB.'s claim of the end times' mantle (put in appropriate, lebaronite terminology here!)

I've not a whole lot of interest in the lebaronites. My sister reminds me of the name of the man and wife who joined them, who we'd visited in Colonia Dublan, before the Allred, etc., murders. I did, however, catch Janet's interview by John Delin, here, and immediately ordered her book (link to Google Books), which I read upon its arrival.

(Interestingly, Janet never mentions Ervil even once in the book! I speculate, now, that she has an understanding with the lebaronites not to dredge up the sensational material from that chapter in their past within her 2004 tome.) In any case, Janet does mention there being a number of thousands of Church of the Firstborn/Joel LeBaron-sect adherents in Mexico and the States.

If both Shurleff's office (UT Atty General who compiled the info when prosecuting the FLDS in Utah) is right and membership in the sect is tenuous, then perhaps another article about Colonia LeBaron would be appropriate, as based on the many newspaper sources with concern this community as well as janet's book.

If I get a chance, I'll see what I can google up. (I looked in a box in a garage for my copy of Desert Patriarchy but didn't find it so I'd have to see how much is excerpted at Google books, for example.) Any way, it may be some time before I have time to even look into this. (And, in any case, this small sect only holds a tiny bit of my interest, despite my having met the members I mentioned, way back when. (Wowww! I just now googled the name of the guy who we visited (see link) and it turns out he was in the Joelite First Presidency! ... lol ... Whatever! <winks!>

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:35, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Taking prof. Bennion's research at face value, it would appear that the lebaronite experience may not be so fully in sync after all with the diffusion of authority and more independent-style of Mormon fundamentalism as is typical of the Centennial Park community. Eg, I just now skimmed the Janet's initial Col. LeBaron chapter to the quote, "The socialpolitical structure of Lebaron is based on the rules and structures extablished in the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times...," which would appear to belie Utah's then chief law enforcement official's, Mark Shurtleff's, office's belief that the "...Fullness of Times" denomination was no longer active. Is it possible the UT atty general's office website's info is some kind of "mirror" of the LDS sects page on Wikipedia? In fact, I think that famed Community of Christ academic journal editor John Hamer HIMSELF (see link to Hamer's WP page) may be the one who originally edited the Joelite WP page to indicate that this sect was inactive. Coincidentally, Hamer is the current interviewee of John Dehlin, so I may well copy and paste this present communication to HIM and find out the source of his contention. (Perhaps he merely meant to edit the "and the Lamb" WP page and inadvertently edited in like fashion the "Fullness of Times" page. But I speculate....)

Nope. Hamer has never edited the page.

Be right back....--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 21:11, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

It's hard to get people interested in this question. Perhaps when I get around to it I'll find someone to ping or email.

Did you find time to peruse Janet's text, by the way? From it you'll see that her substantial estimate of this sect's membership, supported by her intimate famiarity with this town and sect, reflects (1) almost all of the self-described "Mormon" population Colonia LeBaron, a substantial majority of the population, since Janet says that unlike mainstream Mormon colonias, most of the Hispanic population in LeBaron are there only seasonally, plus, (2) a goodly portion its membership living in environs nearby LeBaron as well as in Baja and the U.S.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 16:27, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Meanwhile, I've proffered this edit (diff) as a placeholder.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 16:56, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Copying within Wikipedia[edit]

When you copy or merge information from one article to another as you did here, you need to include a link in the edit history of the target article to the article from which you are copying the information (see WP:PATT), Ie "Merging from Sarah Ann Whitney". -- PBS (talk) 18:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Latter Day Saints Portal[edit]

I added the Category:Portals under construction to your Portal and advise you to start again from scratch instead of copying the Portal which I improved.--Broter (talk) 19:54, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

You are now editing the LDS church portal, not the LDS movement portal.--Broter (talk) 20:32, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I know. Some of the image apply to both.--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 20:34, 19 March 2015 (UTC)