User talk:Alan Liefting

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Moving glossaries

Thanks for your enthusiasm in making mass move of glossaries, but I just wanted to let you know I've moved the Glossary of association football terms back as there is no consensus to move it the way you did. "Glossary of terms" is very commonplace, your move in this case is entirely unnecessary. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I am moving the glossies to meet the WP:ARTICLENAME guideline. I see no discussion on retaining Glossary of association football terms and it will be an odd one out in the glossaries department of WP with its current name. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 19:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Well I moved one back because it had clear consensus for its original name. Good luck with the others. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:09, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Where is that discussion? -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 19:11, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

There is no discussion, just an edit history of hundreds where nobody deemed it necessary to remove the word "terms". If you wish to move the page, I suggest you take it to WP:RM and notify WT:FOOTBALL of your intent. Especially now my revert has made it non-non-controversial. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:16, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

That is not a consensus. The fact that nobody has moved it does not imply a consensus on the current name. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 19:17, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

And your consensus to move all those pages is where? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:19, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a consensus per se since I have not discussed it. The page moves that I am doing would get wide support since I am changing the name in accordance with the guideline. I hope you don't want me to start a discussion on all of the page moves that I have already done! -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 19:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ It depends on the various projects. I work heavily at WP:CRICKET and WP:FOOTBALL so have reverted your changes there, which means if you insist on your change, you'll need to discuss it. As for other projects, well it's up to them. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:27, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

And your reversions go against the article naming guideline, which is applicable throughout WP. WikiProjects should abide by the global guidelines. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 19:32, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Not at all. Local consensus overrules "guidelines". As I said before, take it to the projects and WP:RM if you wish to pursue it. I have nothing more to add here. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know of instances where a WikiProject overrules global WP guidelines, but that is not to say it does not happen. If that is the case for such important guidelines such as article names then it is extreme wiki-arrogance on the part of the project. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:00, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Not at all. A guideline is not a policy. Talk to the projects rather than arrogantly imposing your version of reality across the encyclopaedia. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmmm. My version of reality? Maybe my version of wiki-reality? I take your point of policy vs guidelines. Anyway, I see little to gain and a lot of time that would be wasted if I were to talk to all of the different WikiProjects on something as minor as changing an article name to something that improves WP. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:41, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

At least be decent enough to quote your guideline in your odd edit summary so the world can understand what you're trying to achieve. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:49, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Fair comment and easily done, but I doubt that my pages move are particularly controversial. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Well since I object and have it clear to you, then yes, you need to explain your edits. Obviously. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)But I did explain my edit. What I did not do, and in retrospect I perhaps could have done, is to include a link to the WP guideline. However, it is obvious from the edit summary I gave that there is a good reason for the move and editors should be aware of the page naming guideline. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:12, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Not at all, it's utterly unclear which "guideline" you're "claiming" gives you the right to unilaterally move pages. At least be decent enough to link our readers to the policy-based justification you claim you're using to move these pages. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:14, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

It is WP:ARTICLENAME of course, as previously stated.-- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:32, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I see, so you continue to unilaterally move pages and still offer no explanation as to why? Interesting approach. And an really interesting read, looking at all the posts on your talk page. You must be used to this kind of complaint to your edits by now! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I see no need to explain an edit that is done for a blindingly apparent reason. And given the high number of edits that I do, and the low number of valid complains it appears that I read the desires of the WP community about right. Please assume good faith and refrain from personal attacks. If you have an issue with my edits take it to WP:ANI. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:19, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, having been here for nearly seven years, it's still unclear to me what you're trying to do. No personal attacks, I just read your talk page and realised the number of other editors who have questioned your editing behaviour. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I am trying to improve WP of course! From your reading of my talk page you will see that I explained any edits that were not clear to those who queried them. My talk page indicates that there is nothing wrong with my editing behaviour. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:29, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

No problem, and for once and for all, I've objected to your move of two glossaries, the cricket and football ones. You have provided nothing substantive to tell me why these moves are of use to anyone, and therefore until you gain consensus to move them both at the respective projects, I see those particular moves as nothing more than an enthusiastic mistake. I look forward to seeing how all the other moves pan out. For your information, I won't be discussing this with you here any further, there seems little point. I'll continue to work with the various projects, and should I decide to make unilateral move decisions, I'll endeavour to explain my edits rather than avoid answering simple questions.The Rambling Man (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Read WP:CRITERIA (part of WP:ARTICLENAME) which is a policy, and so the reversions that you did contravene policy. So I did not make any enthusiastic mistakes. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Looks like we both were unaware that we are dealing with a policy rather than a guideline. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:42, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Moving articles

If moving an article is disputed, you should know by now to take it to WP:RM and stop move-warring. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:48, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I am well aware of WP:RM but that should not be necessary if there is a clear case to move an article. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:50, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Which there isn't. So take it to RM or leave it. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

But there is a clear case to move the articles to the title that I chose. It is a clear, concise title that does not contain the redundant word of "terms". -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

And the "policy" outlawing the term term is where exactly? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:56, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Once again, you are using words that don't fit in with wiki-activity. Nothing is "outlawed" since there are no rules and we can be bold. Having said that there is clear policy at WP:CRITERIA, as I have already stated. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 22:14, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Alan, we do outlaw edit-warring, and move-warring even more so. The principle is summed up at WP:BRD: bold, revert, discuss.

You made the move in good faith, being WP:BOLD. The move was reverted, so now you need a WP:RM discussion to seek wider input and reach a consenus. I am sure you will make a good case for your own preferred title. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:48, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

"Outlaw" is a strong word in our wiki-world isn't it? I moved the pages, The Rambling Man moved them back, and I then explained my actions and moved them again. Is that move-warring? Anyway, I am not interested in pursuing it further, and I am not interested in wasting my time requesting a page move for something that is quite clearly needed and will be contested. It is not a biggie. Plenty of other stuff to do. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 22:56, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Likewise I have reverted your move of Glossary of equestrian terms. Same basic reason, I see nothing in the naming criteria you site (either page) that mandates such a move. In this case, our title may be clunky, but "equestrianism" is not the solution, as our project is WP:EQUINE and encompasses far more than riding or sport. But "Glossary of equine" would sound really silly! If there is some sort of wiki-wide consensus policy saying our glossary titles can't include the word "terms" (though I see dozens this way, at least prior to all your moves) that is one thing, but until then, please allow the people who work on the page to discuss its name. Montanabw^(talk) 22:59, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that glossary did not appear to be a clear cut case but it did seem to be related to equestrianism alone. I agree that "Glossary of equine" is not a goer. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 23:03, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Move from "Glossary of music terminology" to "Glossary of music"

Are you sure that this move was a good idea? I personally think that it should be reverted, as "Glossary of music" could also refer to either a glossary of musical works, or a glossary of musical styles. While this page was as "Glossary of music terminology," it was far less ambiguous than the place that it is now. Should we look for a consensus for one way or the other?14jbella (talk) 02:08, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I take it you mean Glossary of music and not Category:Glossary of musical terminology. I don't know what a glossary of "musical works" would be by that sounds like (ooooh - a pun) it would be a "List of musical works". A glossary is about terms not individual works. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 02:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I suppose that makes sense. Should all glossaries in this format be moved then for consistency? This seems rather tedious as there are quite a few.14jbella (talk) 03:01, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Having "term" or "terminology" in a glossary title is redundant per WP:ARTICLENAME. I have just finished a big session in renaming glossaries. I cannot see any others lurking around that need to be sorted out. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 03:07, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Won't this cause many double redirects? Also, there seems to be a consensus on "Glossary of Music" to revert it to "Glossary of musical terms". Shouldn't it be returned, if the consensus remains after several days?14jbella (talk) 19:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Double redirects ar fixed by a bot or can be done manually or by a semi-automated bot. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 19:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, but what about the consensus problem? 14jbella (talk) 20:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

If there is a consensus to change it back then it should be changed back. I will carry on this discussion at Talk:Glossary_of_music#Move_from_.22Glossary_of_music_terminology.22_to_.22Glossary_of_music.22. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 20:43, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Somewhere I Have Never Traveled

Did I do something wrong by placing Film Category? [1] :- ) DCS 21:05, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

What is wrong and what is right???? The film is already in six other film related categories and if Somewhere I Have Never Traveled is placeD in Category:Film what is stopping other editors adding the 1000's of other film articles to it. Have a read of WP:CAT. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:08, 28 February 2012 (UTC)