User talk:Angr

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Southern American English rice-rise distinction and IPA[edit]

On the talk page for Checked and free vowels, Angr wrote,

I've never seen any vowel of American English transcribed as /ɐː/, and only very rarely have I seen /ɐ/ used to transcribe the vowel of STRUT. /ɑ/ is the usual transcription for the vowel of father and bother in American accents where the two words rhyme. It's true that coastal Southern accents don't monophthongize the PRICE vowel before voiceless sounds, but considering Texas is the second-largest state in the union, it's probably fair to say the majority of people with Southern accents do say [hwaːt raːs] rather than [hwəɪt rəɪs] for white rice. But I still don't think anyone merges PRICE with TRAP even before voiced sounds; rad and ride are distinct in both quality and duration, as are span and spine. (However, the Southern breaking of the TRAP vowel plays a role in avoiding homophony; bad and bide are distinct at least in part because bad is /bæɪ(ə)d/.) The Southern monophthongized PRICE vowel is very much like the Bostonian START vowel; I knew a Bostonian named Mark who had to make phone calls to people all around the country in his job, and he complained how many people got his name wrong, because his pronunciation /maːk/ sounded just like a (non-coastal) Southerner's pronunciation of Mike. Angr (talk) 18:59, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Because this interesting conversation goes far beyond the topic of that talk page (which of course is the article itself, not the subject matter of the article), I'm taking the liberty of moving it over to the present page, which I hope Angr will not mind. (I'm also referring to Angr in the third person, rather than addressing him or her directly, just in case this conversation includes more than the two of us.)

  • Coastal Southern accents: I'd say the distinction in vowels between RICE and RISE extends well beyond the Southern coast, no?
  • Texas: Texas may be the second-largest State in the Union, but I would beware of extrapolating too much linguistically from that fact. Much, probably most, of Texas's population growth in recent decades (i.e. the growth that has made it the second-largest State) has come from immigration, not from native increase, and seems unlikely to involve a significant increase in the number of speakers of traditional Texan. See these maps of Texas population change 2000-2010 and Texas population 2010.
At least two of Texas's major cities, Houston and Austin, exhibit the RICE - RISE distinction, as does the large cotton-planting region of east Texas. See this informative map. (I spent several days in Austin a few years ago, and I was hard put to find a Southern accent, let alone a Texan. Not a soul greeted me with "Howdy", and I found nobody who would have said /hwæːt ɹæːs/--or /hwaːt ɹaːs/, or whatever the correct IPA is.)
  • rad/ride, span/spine, etc.: I agree that these pairs differ in both quality and duration. Our disagreement seems to be over how the respective vowels should be represented in IPA, and I readily confess uncertainty about that. I think we agree on /ɹæd/ and /spæn/ for Gen. Am. The question is, how the monophthong spelt "i" in RIDE and SPINE should be represented in IPA? I originally asserted that there is no satisfactory IPA symbol for that phoneme, as it is pronounced in most of the South, because IPA can't distinguish between South-Carolinian PA (/pæ:/, see below) and PIE; but I'm not confident of that, and would like to hear what others think.
The point about breaking of the TRAP vowel is well taken for some Southern accents, but not entirely for mine, I think. I grew up saying, /træp/, not /træəp/. I do, however, break the vowel before a voiced consonant, as in CAB, /kæəb/. I don't remember whether that comes from my eastern-Virginia upbringing or my parents' South-Carolinian. South-Carolinian, in any event, does (or did) have a long, unbroken /æ/ sound in open syllables, which I've never encountered elsewhere in the U.S. My father's Charlestonian grandmother was called /ˈɡræmˌmæː/, and my mother's father called his parents /mæ:/ and /pæ:/. The vowel in all these words is that in Gen. Am. PAT, not in SAE PIE or Gen. Am. PA or Gen. Am. PAW.
  • Bostonian /maːk/: In my experience, it doesn't take much to start a Bostonian complaining, so I would hesitate to draw broad conclusions from this anecdote. ;0) Kidding aside, our interpretations of what we hear are subjective, and we often think we're hearing a familiar sound or word when a speaker utters an unfamiliar one. A cousin of mine was raised on army bases and speaks Gen. Am., but his mother speaks South Carolina Piedmontese. I remember as a boy hearing him talk about "/pai-pai/" the Sailor because he couldn't distinguish between the vowels of POP and EYE in his mother's speech. I think it's quite likely that random Americans will be more accustomed to hearing the RISE monophthong in MIKE than they are the non-rhotic New England pronunciation of MARK, and will naturally mistake the latter for the former, even if the respective vowels are not objectively identical.
Sorry to reply at such length to Angr's concise paragraph! Feel free, but not obliged, to respond in kind. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 18:50, 11 April 2014 (UTC)


[1]It is a node in Eska (2010) and cited in Glottolog. — kwami (talk) 19:48, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, it hardly seems to have garnered enough acceptance for us to be putting it in infoboxes. Angr (talk) 18:56, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

May 2014[edit]

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Request for comment[edit]

Hello there, a proposal regarding pre-adminship review has been raised at Village pump by Anna Frodesiak. Your comments here is very much appreciated. Many thanks. Jim Carter through MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 06:46, 28 May 2014 (UTC)


Hello there. Way back in 2006 you closed an TfD for Template:Profanity as delete. I'd like to recreate it looking something like this:

How to manage this template's visibility

  • Use  {{Angr |state=collapsed}}  to show this template in its collapsed (hidden) state.
Use  {{Angr |state=expanded}}  to show this template in its expanded (fully visible) state.
Use  {{Angr |state=autocollapse}}  to show this template in its collapsed (hidden) state only if there is another template of the same type on the page.
  • Unless set otherwise (see state parameter within the template's code), autocollapse is the default state.



Would that be okay? Best wishes, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:00, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and sorry for the above massmessaging post. I had nothing to do with that. The user just decided on his own to send it out to 1,000 admins on my behalf. I was not pleased. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:02, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Sure, that's fine. Your proposed template is eminently encyclopedic and has nothing at all to do with the original content. Angr (talk) 22:01, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Yay! Many thanks. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:09, 11 June 2014 (UTC)


Thank you for your contributions. I have repaired the damage. Tim riley talk 17:22, 6 July 2014 (UTC)


Hey, I stumbled onto your page by looking at Irish phonology's old FAC, since I was (and have now nominated thus) working on the Czech language article for GAN, the first article on a language to seek such a status AFAIK in several years. Naturally, I wanted to know what kinds of things might come up down the road. Anyway, your parable is very clever and, since I'm a vegetarian (leaning towards vegan, with varying success) myself, I was able to empathize acutely with its message. I will say that while I too think Wikipedia's stance on fair use images is inconsistent, I advocate being more liberal rather than restrictive with them, largely because I work mainly on video game-related pages, a subset of the encyclopedia I know you're not a fan of. Anyway, just wanted to drop by to mention the essay (though if you have any tips for language articles, that's great too). Tezero (talk) 02:53, 27 July 2014 (UTC)