User talk:Arctic.gnome/Archive 8
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This is an archive of discussions from January to December 2010. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on my main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary. |
AfD nomination of Chronology of the Doctor Who universe
An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Chronology of the Doctor Who universe. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").
Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chronology of the Doctor Who universe. Please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).
You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate.
Please note: This is an automatic notification by a bot. I have nothing to do with this article or the deletion nomination, and can't do anything about it. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 01:05, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Wikimania 2011
You're previously involved in bid process for hosting Wikimania in Toronto. Right now we're forming a bid team for Wikimania in 2011. Would you be interested? I know you're on the mailing list but I might have missed it due to too much noise. I apologize ahead of time if you have already indicate your will. OhanaUnitedTalk page 17:15, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom GA review
A review to see if Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom meets Wikipedia:Good article criteria has started, and has been put on hold. Suggestions for improvement are at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom/GA2, and are mainly to do with coverage and neutrality, and building the lead section. Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is one of our most high profile and popular articles, attracting an average of over 11,000 readers every day. You have made more than 30 edits to the article, and so you might be interested in helping to make the improvements needed to get it listed as a Good Article. SilkTork *YES! 12:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Elizabeth II of the UK article move request
Because you have participated in one of the previous move requests for the Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom article, I invite you to take part in the latest move request for that article. Thank you. --~Knowzilla (Talk) 09:57, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Comments there for you. –xenotalk 20:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- So just to clarify:
- 1) I'm ignoring articles with community=yes for the remainder of the run
- 2) you would like me to go back over and remove geography=yes if community=yes is there?
- –xenotalk 21:24, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, if it has community=yes then it doesn't need geography=yes. Thank you! --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 03:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
- FYI trying to avoid having to make these edits with Template talk:WikiProject Canada#Suppress geography=yes where community=yes exists. Let me know if you think that is a good idea/ bad idea, etc. See also comment at User:Xenobot/R#WP:GEOCANADA. –xenotalk 16:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Discussion at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom/Article title
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom/Article title. DrKiernan (talk) 09:02, 18 March 2010 (UTC) (Using {{Please see}})
Please could you comment on the request at Template talk:WikiProject Canada#Cities? Thanks — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:39, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Just a note, the page should not have been deleted - because it contained history, both on the article and the talk page, and that's why it already had the Wikiproject Canada banner on it. Once the article got redirected the logical thing to do would be change the assessment to display what the page is: a redirect; a redirect with an important title and discussions on the talk page.
The point isn't to assess redirects or to improve them in any way, the point is that if a talk page has prior history it should not be deleted but rather categorized for tracking purposes. Especially if it's a merged article.. templates such as {{mergedto}} and {{copied}} exist just for the purpose of placing on the redirect's talk page, it's useful for proper attribution and compliance with licensing. The Wikiproject Canada or any other banner can be removed, but if the redirect is still an important article title and common search term the better thing to do would be to categorize it as Redirect-Class or NA-class. But it definitely should not be deleted if there's a past history of relevant discussions on the talk page of the redirect, regardless of any wikiproject banner that may be on the page. Anyways, you probably know all this anyway, hope I made sense though. -- Ϫ 01:54, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
a -> an
Er, uh, yes... that's what happens when you make a simple change, like "prototype" to "experimental", without considering the rest of the sentence... -- tariqabjotu 22:24, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Canadian article importance ratings
Hi Arctic.gnome. Argolin recently has been putting some hard work into cleanup and categorization of Canadian music articles, and I've been offering the occasional guidance. Your name came up in a discussion we were having about importance ratings of articles, and we would both be interested in your input, if you have a moment: User talk:Argolin#Juno Awards by year. Thanks much, Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 13:32, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Hey, Arctic Gnome. I'm looking to get this template updated Template:WikiProject Canada? Are you responsible for it? It is locked and rightly so. I really can't seem to find the owner of the template. I may be wrong but the creator of the page, is not necessarily the owner of the template?. Also, I tried exploring Category:Wikipedia template categories. Looking at that category, I really don't feel that dumb for asking who is responsible for it. WP Big, WP too big? Thanks for your time. Argolin (talk) 06:18, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry , for clairity, the template and documentation need to be updated. Argolin (talk) 06:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Talk:Phi Gamma Delta
Then I shall blame User:SineBot for being slow :p OrangeDog (τ • ε) 16:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Phi Gamma Delta
I normally wouldn't have semi'd it, but according to the article's talk page, there has been a two-month long dispute (if not longer) about whether the Greek letters should be in the article. That, combined with what appeared to be IP hopping, made me think semi'ing was best. Blueboy96 22:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Name
I love it. Falcon8765 (talk) 00:50, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you. :) —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 22:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
File source problem with File:WHDraper.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:WHDraper.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.
If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 19:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 19:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- I uploaded that years ago, before I learned anything about copyright rules. I have no recollection of where it came from, so go ahead and delete it. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 22:45, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Hi
I noticed that you are a part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Governments of Canada and I have a proposal to turn that Wikiproject into Wikiproject:Canadian Politics. I would love to here your thoughts. The proposal disccusion is here Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Canadian Politics. --Everyone Dies In the End (talk) 04:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Category:Old-time musicians
Arctic.gnome, per your comment in the edit summary for Category:Old-time musicians. You got it in one! I assigned a low importance as a reminder or a to-do. I would have perferred ???, but you've got to work with what you have. I guess my next step is to contact the WikiProject Roots music before mucking about with categories? Argolin (talk) 05:25, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
I can't find info about another place in Canada with this name in the StatsCan SGC, but I did find this, which suggests that a tourist location in Manitoba with that name also exists. I'm not sure whether that would merit inclusion in Wikipedia though. Mindmatrix 19:11, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
En dashes and proper nouns
I noticed that you changed the titles of several articles about regional municipalities and districts to use an en dash (e.g., Squamish–Lillooet Regional District). While I know that the use of an en dash is normally correct to indicate "to" or "and" in such situations, does the same principle apply when dealing with proper nouns? The website of the Squamish–Lillooet RD, for instance, uses a hyphen instead of an en dash (which may or may not be technically correct...), as do [2] and [3]. Thanks, -- Black Falcon (talk) 01:03, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- Punctuation is one case where we can't always rely on our subject's website; usage is often inconsistent between the website, print publications, and official documents. Because of this, we have to rely on our own style guide unless the subject has specified a preference (like with Elections Canada's use of m-dashes in riding names). The way I read the WP:MOS, I think it prefers n-dashes for proper nouns. It gives "France–Germany border" with an n-dash as an example of proper use, and I think compound place names are more similar to that example then they are to compound surnames, which use a hyphen. Plus, I personally think it looks better with the n-dash; the hyphen makes the words a bit too conjoined, as if one is a prefix of the other rather than two separate items. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 01:57, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
- That makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to clarify, -- Black Falcon (talk) 18:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
Canada project issues
Hey Mr list guy! I don't know if you saw the reassessments the other day, but I went through the other Canadian classes (B, C, etc) and assigned the list items to list class. There's probably more hiding in these classes. I picked off all the easy ones with "List" in the article name. The music project has one oddball list class (without list in the article name) Discographies.
Anyway I have a list of 50ish new articles to assign to the music project. I'm rating/classifiying them all as unknown. These new articles have multiple issues to fix before I will assess and rate them. I know you have your hands full with the other projects. lol I also will help in your efforts. Have you ever used CatScan? It's a little finicky, but it works. Argolin (talk) 23:05, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry for the late reply. Good work with the list tagging. If a page has a bunch of issues, it's better to mark it as stub or start than as unknown. People are always going through the unknown-class articles to rate problem articles anyway, so you may as well save them the time. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 18:42, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
- See Talk:Corey Wood. The page is subject to huge vandalism. I don't know who to report it to to block the ip. The article is not properly categorised. No citations. Is he notable enough outside of his band to warrant an article? Therefore class=? and importance?. Other articles with less serious issues, I have been assigning a class but not importance. Argolin (talk) 19:12, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
- To report vandals, first give them progressively more harsh warnings. You can use the user warning templates or the twinkle gadget for that. If they've been given a level 4 warning and are still vandalizing, you can report them at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism.
- Don't worry about the vandalism when ranking short articles, just give it stub, start, or C based on how long it is, how well put-together it is, and whether it's referenced. Once you get to B-class, then you start worrying about whether the article is stable. Try to give articles importance ratings whenever you can, it will save other people work later. Most small-time musicians will be low-importance. More famous ones will be mid-importance, with a couple very famous ones at high-importance. Articles about the music industry in Canada will be mid or high, except for Music of Canada, which is top. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 19:22, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
- Hmmm. We are more/less in agreement regarding importance! Are you going back to the music discussion page? You forced my hand to reply to you and never went back. I know you're busy. lol...
- See Talk:Corey Wood. The page is subject to huge vandalism. I don't know who to report it to to block the ip. The article is not properly categorised. No citations. Is he notable enough outside of his band to warrant an article? Therefore class=? and importance?. Other articles with less serious issues, I have been assigning a class but not importance. Argolin (talk) 19:12, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
- lolx2. What about the Hip? Argolin (talk) 22:21, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Em dashes for Canadian ridings
I've been moving them back to en dashes, and finally noticed your edit summary. I'll take it to WT:MOS for advice. It is very distracting to see the em dash, and it will keep being moved to en dashes on WP by editors who are following the MoS. Tony (talk) 11:58, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I have nominated List of science fiction film and television series by lengths, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of science fiction film and television series by lengths. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.
Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Claritas § 16:25, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
WikiProject International Law
- STOP. You have not shown consensus to carry out the changes outlined in the bot request and have gone to do this yourself. Stop editing and discuss this. FinalRapture - † ☪ 21:02, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
- Orphaned pages cannot give consensus. By giving the project a parent wikiproject I am attracting attention to it so that in the future consensus can be reached on other issues. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 02:46, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
Wrong use of WikiProjectBannerShell
Hi. Concerning this edit of yours I would like to comment that you added WPBS incorrectly. You forgot both |1= before the templates and |blp=yes that should be added due to the WPBiography with |living=yes that exists in the talk page. Please be more careful in the future. Thanks, Magioladitis (talk) 22:09, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
Disputed non-free use rationale for File:Antonio Barrette.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:Antonio Barrette.jpg. However, there is a concern that the rationale provided for using this file on Wikipedia may not meet the criteria required by Wikipedia:Non-free content. This can be corrected by going to the file description page and adding or clarifying the reason why the file qualifies under this policy. Adding and completing one of the templates available from Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your file is in compliance with Wikipedia policy. Please be aware that a non-free use rationale is not the same as an image copyright tag; descriptions for files used under the non-free content policy require both a copyright tag and a non-free use rationale.
If it is determined that the file does not qualify under the non-free content policy, it might be deleted by an administrator within a few days in accordance with our criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions, please ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 11:11, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Fixed —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 06:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion of Template:Infobox regional government in Canada
Template:Infobox regional government in Canada has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 04:38, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
A barnstar for you
|
The Barnstar of Good Humor | |
| For your excellent parody "One flag, two flag, red flag, blue flag" here. That totally made my day! +Angr 18:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
- Thank you! —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 18:26, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Date of Polling
In Opinion polling in the 41st Canadian federal election, you've amended much of the table to list date ranges rather than just the closing date of the poll. Previous elections have explicitly listed only that closing data as a "Date of Polling", and I've been trying to enforce that in each subsequent election's opinion poll page. Since the date range is already there in the cited poll release, I think changing the way this table reports date both makes the table harder to use and loses consistency with previous elections' tables. I think we should change it back to listing just the closing date (the final date of polling). Though I'm open to discussion. --Llewdor (talk) 20:13, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- The advantage of including the polling dates is that it lets people see what major news events have impacted the results. I do agree that we need to be consistent, so if we include both dates I'm going to have to eventually go back and change them all, just like I will with the margin of error. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 18:24, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Orphaned non-free image File:Jean Lesage.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Jean Lesage.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
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Orphaned non-free image File:Antonio Barrette.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Antonio Barrette.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
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Fair use rationale for File:Jean-Jacques Bertrand.jpg
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Fair use rationale for File:Robert Bourassa.jpg
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Replaceable fair use File:Daniel Johnson Jr.jpg
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Orphaned non-free image File:Robert Bourassa.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:Robert Bourassa.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
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University of Vic article
Hey Arctic, I was wondering if you could drop a few lines of discussion at Talk:University of Victoria regarding the bunnies and your and my recent edits to that section? An user recently requested that the article not refer to euthanizing the bunnies, based on its definition. But the term is specifically mentioned in the quoted article so it has its place I think. Ive originally made some notes and tried to address the user there, but i can see how my proposal may create redundancy. I've since redirected the wikification to animinal euthaniasia today after your edit. If you could give a few notes on your position about the users request as well, that would be super, thanks, sorry to bother. Ottawa4ever (talk) 12:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi. As you recently commented in the straw poll regarding the ongoing usage and trial of Pending changes, this is to notify you that there is an interim straw poll with regard to keeping the tool switched on or switching it off while improvements are worked on and due for release on November 9, 2010. This new poll is only in regard to this issue and sets no precedent for any future usage. Your input on this issue is greatly appreciated. Off2riorob (talk) 23:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Red Indians
I am writing from India. Here we always use the term Red Indians. Regards Jon Ascton (talk) 15:13, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- That surprises me, I would have thought that people in India would be the least likely to use the word "Indian" to describe another group. If I heard the phrase "Red Indian" before today, I would have assumed that it referred to some cultural or political group in India. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 00:21, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
WP:FT/GT
I was wondering how come you stopped being active on the topics project? Nergaal (talk) 18:24, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
- Back in the day I spent many hours there each week. It took a long time to check submissions and even longer to go through the process of promoting. I enjoyed doing that back when I was in undergrad, but since then I haven't had the time to spend hours at a time editing, so these days I mostly just fix mistakes that I'm reading rather than writing whole articles or managing projects. If you guys need an extra reviewer, I'd be happy to check out the page every now and then and give my two cents. It was an interesting way to see a spectrum of articles on the site. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 02:42, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
- Good to hear from you. I have a similar situation here, but I find that reviewing the small number of submissions there (10ish a month) does not take too much time. The project is doing well on nominations, but is doing fairly poorly on reviewers (asides MilHist entries). I was wondering about you because and I remember back in the past you being ubiquitous there (as with Rst20xx who stopped contributing altogether). Nergaal (talk) 02:50, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
Your old research
Hey I was really fond of the page about sci fi shows by length, and was sad to see it taken down but understood the reasons for its removal. I noticed on the talk page you said you made it and was wondering if you still had those facts and figures bumping around somewhere on your hard drive, because honestly I am a huge nerd and while watching Babylon 5 I've been thinkin about how it stacks up run time wise with other shows but alas, I have no way of knowing. Cheers. bladeranger (talk) 04:50, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- As an admin, I was able to recover the last version of the page. I see no harm in letting you keep a copy of the data, so I put it in the archive of my sandbox here. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 00:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Honourary/Honorary
Hi, Thank you for your thoughtful note regarding "Sinecure".
I genuinely thought it was a typo.
I am in the UK and I thought we were the keen ones on "u" in Honour, honourable etc. Hence, since in the UK it is Honorary, I thought that nobody would have a "u" there, so I assumed it was just a typo.
But I can see the world is more complex than I imagined (e.g. http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=222313),
Best wishes,
Darrel Francis (talk) 16:48, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Hyphens/dashs in regional district names
I see you in the Skeena-Queen Charlotte Regional District history as the editor who added the current space between the two components, on either side of the long dash. I've changed a few of these back to hyphen only but this and certain others have redirects in the way. Why am I changing them back? Because on the one hand I'm getting tired of having to copy-paste article titles (and category names) when before I could just simply TYPE them, but it's ALSO because the regional districts themselves don't use them, they use only a hyphen, no space. It's like adding a circumflex or an accent grave to a word/name that doesn't have one IMO. Applying Wikipedia "punctuation" conventions without thought of whether or not it's usable or whether or not the subject itself uses them, it's not so hard to do; knee-jerk modifications of things just to fit wiki standards, or to look "p.c. cool", aren't always the right thing to do (really, they never are). e.g. on Sto:lo it's important to note the form with diacriticals on the 'o's is used by only one tribal council, not both, nor is it used by all the non-TC bands. The hyphen vs. dash falls inthe same league, even though it's not a diacritical; but it is the official style of the RDs, and in the same way that Elections BC uses only a hyphen in its compound names (vs the dash used by Elections Canada), Wikipedia should follow those conventions....not try to reinvent/impose them.Skookum1 (talk) 18:38, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- The name without spaces and with a hyphen are redirects, so I don't understand why you have to copy-paste them. As for conventions, there are very few places that have an official policy for the difference between dashes and hyphens or the spaces between dashes, and a lot of the time different publications from the same organization will use different styles. In absence of any official policy from the subject, Wikipedia likes to have a consistant look and feel, and I was making the articles match that standard. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 03:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia may "like to have a consistent look and feel", but that doesn't mean it can take liberties with established style/spelling conventions just because of appearance and standardization. The RD's own site, all government publications that I am aware of, including BCGNIS, and StatsCan, use hyphen-no-spaces, which is a citable spelling. Wikipedia's desire to have a "consistent look and feel" are irrelevant in the face of citations from the horse's mouth.Skookum1 (talk) 04:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry for the late reply. In cases like that, I strongly suspect that the use of hyphens is a result of the web designer not caring enough to look up how to make a dash, and not a result of trying to have odd punctuation. In many cities like that, whenever the city name in drawn (and therefore don't have to look up how to type a dash), they use a character of n-dash width rather than hyphen width. Nevertheless, you're right that the hyphen version is citable, so you have a case to argue for it to be changed. I recommend that you change policy at WP:CANSTYLE before making any changes to article names; otherwise someone will eventually change it back. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 05:02, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- No, because it doesn't matter whether it's a webpage or a document issued in hard copy, or when they're mentioned in print; it's always the hyphen. Only Wikipedia imposes dashes on names that don't use it themselves. Doesn't matter whether it's the UBCM site, a provincial government site, regional district sites, StatsCan or any number of other websites either; it's clear that this is a standing convention in all non-Wikipedia uses, and not just one webdesigner or editor, and suggesting that they were too lazy to look up how to do a dash is, if you give it, pretty .... wiki-centric and kinda arrogant. Practices like this have the effect of imposing wikipedia-derive standards on reality, and that's just not right, and not what Wikipedia is supposed to be. Sounds like there's been a lot of thoughtless "improving" of CANSTYLE without anybody actually considering what's going on in the real world. CANSTYLE and MOS in general have a lot of oddities, like the over-applied and much abused "lower case" thing, but this is out of bounds; it's like adding an apostrophe to a placename that doesn't have one....Wikipedia's design-obsessed style guidists should take a breather and evaluate exactly how far they're run amuck and without regard to the sources AND to the most common usages.Skookum1 (talk) 05:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- I see your point, and I agree that Wikipedia should not try to drive reality, but I think this case is more complicated than that. We certainly must match usage for the actual names of things, but when it comes to punctuation and linguistic style, I think we can veer from usage in order to be proper. We aim to write in a professional style of English. This means, for example, that we prefer the article title Mother insult rather than Yo mamma joke, even though the later is more common in actual usage. Similarly, I think it makes sense for us to use the punctuation recommended by style guides, even if that punctuation is not common. We make an exception when the subject expressly chooses to use odd punctuation, such as will.i.am, but I'm still not sure if the city's websites show an expressed choice by the subject to use punctuation that goes against style guides, or whether it shows someone typing their name quickly. I once again think that drawings of the city name (for example, on a logo) are the best place to see what the subject wants their name to look like. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 06:09, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- You're suggesting that the usage vary with each logo/RD....and this usage was established BEFORE there were such things as logos, and such things as wordprocessors with extra characters. "an expressed choice by the subject to use punctuation that goes against style guides" is a big mouthful. but which style guides are you talking about? Canadian Press? CanWest? Torstar? CBC? the only style guide taht's really relevant is that in effective use by the Government of BC (I already know what THAT uses)? I have yet to see or hear of a style guide that says "regional district names should properly use hyphens not dashes", in the real world anyway. When you find one, let me know; but it's not the BC government's, on any page, and it's certainly not any of the RDs or any of the municipalities or the UBCM.Skookum1 (talk) 06:55, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- I assume you meant to say "use dashes not hyphens" given that I was the one arguing for dashes. My APA style guide says to use en dashes to connect two proper nouns when neither is modifying the other, and I'm 90% sure that my Chicago style guide said the same thing. I think that you would find something similar in most style guides. That said, specific rules overrule general rules, so if there was a BC style guide that recommended using a hyphen, it would overrule the general style. As I have said, I don't have faith that the person typing out the websites is following any established BC Government style, and I don't think that the choice of some webmaster should overrule Wikipedia's default style. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 07:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I've worked for the BC government and can guarantee you there's a style guide, though I don't know which government department is in charge of it nowadays; could be the provincial secretary, could be the speaker's office, could be the Public Affairs Bureau (the government's press agency). I got slapped simply for using the wrong font on a "digital rolodex" I designed for my boss in the pesticides branch, and a couple of weeks later got a sharp, rather nasty phone call from BC Systems that I had gone around them and not observed government style/design guides. You're in Chicago, apparently; I'm in BC, and am familiar with various on0-line services of the BC government and also of all kinds of NGOs, museums, and more. i also know that if I were to have submitted a WP document with funny-looking space and a special dash in regional district names, the boss would have said "why did you do that?"; same with a geography or history paper at SFU. I have NEVER seen anyone use a dash in ANY of them - nor in a phone book, for that matter. As far as the BC Government sites go, and the regional district webpages themselves, it's clear there is an implicit style guide/convention and those are primary sources for the usage. You are not a primary source; they are. And as far as "connecting two proper nouns" you are very wrong; the hyphenated form IS a proper name, or part of one, e.g. "Kitimat-Stikine", "Squamish-Lillooet" When used together in those contexts, they are a shorthand form of the longer full name of the regional district, which is the proper name. "Lillooet" by itself is a proper name with multiple meanings, none of them to do with the RD. The hyphen indicates linkage between two places/regions, and as a proper name it exists ONLY in hyphenated form; the separate forms are different proper names; theres' a big difference betweeen "the Shuswap" and "The Columbia" (never mind that both, like Lillooet, have multiple local meaning/contexts). You continue to aver that such sites ignore a style guide, or don't have one, but you have no evidence fo that claim; and if anything t he material evidence points very clearly to an across-the-board style guide observed by governments, institutions, companies and others in British Columbia, also shared by the federal government. The sources say "hyphen" and Arctic Gnome says "they don't have a style guide and were just being lazy".Skookum1 (talk) 08:09, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not from Chicago, I'm a student at UVic, and I was just naming common style guides (APA, MLA, and Chicago). If you had a copy of the BC Government style guide, you could have save us some trouble. Nevertheless, I decided to look up some legislation, because it almost always matches government style unless the page you're viewing has be transcribed since royal assent. This page differentiates between en dashes and hyphen, and uses hyphens for Skeena-Queen Charlotte Regional District, so based on that I'll agree that you're probably right in this case. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 08:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I've worked for the BC government and can guarantee you there's a style guide, though I don't know which government department is in charge of it nowadays; could be the provincial secretary, could be the speaker's office, could be the Public Affairs Bureau (the government's press agency). I got slapped simply for using the wrong font on a "digital rolodex" I designed for my boss in the pesticides branch, and a couple of weeks later got a sharp, rather nasty phone call from BC Systems that I had gone around them and not observed government style/design guides. You're in Chicago, apparently; I'm in BC, and am familiar with various on0-line services of the BC government and also of all kinds of NGOs, museums, and more. i also know that if I were to have submitted a WP document with funny-looking space and a special dash in regional district names, the boss would have said "why did you do that?"; same with a geography or history paper at SFU. I have NEVER seen anyone use a dash in ANY of them - nor in a phone book, for that matter. As far as the BC Government sites go, and the regional district webpages themselves, it's clear there is an implicit style guide/convention and those are primary sources for the usage. You are not a primary source; they are. And as far as "connecting two proper nouns" you are very wrong; the hyphenated form IS a proper name, or part of one, e.g. "Kitimat-Stikine", "Squamish-Lillooet" When used together in those contexts, they are a shorthand form of the longer full name of the regional district, which is the proper name. "Lillooet" by itself is a proper name with multiple meanings, none of them to do with the RD. The hyphen indicates linkage between two places/regions, and as a proper name it exists ONLY in hyphenated form; the separate forms are different proper names; theres' a big difference betweeen "the Shuswap" and "The Columbia" (never mind that both, like Lillooet, have multiple local meaning/contexts). You continue to aver that such sites ignore a style guide, or don't have one, but you have no evidence fo that claim; and if anything t he material evidence points very clearly to an across-the-board style guide observed by governments, institutions, companies and others in British Columbia, also shared by the federal government. The sources say "hyphen" and Arctic Gnome says "they don't have a style guide and were just being lazy".Skookum1 (talk) 08:09, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- I assume you meant to say "use dashes not hyphens" given that I was the one arguing for dashes. My APA style guide says to use en dashes to connect two proper nouns when neither is modifying the other, and I'm 90% sure that my Chicago style guide said the same thing. I think that you would find something similar in most style guides. That said, specific rules overrule general rules, so if there was a BC style guide that recommended using a hyphen, it would overrule the general style. As I have said, I don't have faith that the person typing out the websites is following any established BC Government style, and I don't think that the choice of some webmaster should overrule Wikipedia's default style. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 07:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- You're suggesting that the usage vary with each logo/RD....and this usage was established BEFORE there were such things as logos, and such things as wordprocessors with extra characters. "an expressed choice by the subject to use punctuation that goes against style guides" is a big mouthful. but which style guides are you talking about? Canadian Press? CanWest? Torstar? CBC? the only style guide taht's really relevant is that in effective use by the Government of BC (I already know what THAT uses)? I have yet to see or hear of a style guide that says "regional district names should properly use hyphens not dashes", in the real world anyway. When you find one, let me know; but it's not the BC government's, on any page, and it's certainly not any of the RDs or any of the municipalities or the UBCM.Skookum1 (talk) 06:55, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- I see your point, and I agree that Wikipedia should not try to drive reality, but I think this case is more complicated than that. We certainly must match usage for the actual names of things, but when it comes to punctuation and linguistic style, I think we can veer from usage in order to be proper. We aim to write in a professional style of English. This means, for example, that we prefer the article title Mother insult rather than Yo mamma joke, even though the later is more common in actual usage. Similarly, I think it makes sense for us to use the punctuation recommended by style guides, even if that punctuation is not common. We make an exception when the subject expressly chooses to use odd punctuation, such as will.i.am, but I'm still not sure if the city's websites show an expressed choice by the subject to use punctuation that goes against style guides, or whether it shows someone typing their name quickly. I once again think that drawings of the city name (for example, on a logo) are the best place to see what the subject wants their name to look like. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 06:09, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- No, because it doesn't matter whether it's a webpage or a document issued in hard copy, or when they're mentioned in print; it's always the hyphen. Only Wikipedia imposes dashes on names that don't use it themselves. Doesn't matter whether it's the UBCM site, a provincial government site, regional district sites, StatsCan or any number of other websites either; it's clear that this is a standing convention in all non-Wikipedia uses, and not just one webdesigner or editor, and suggesting that they were too lazy to look up how to do a dash is, if you give it, pretty .... wiki-centric and kinda arrogant. Practices like this have the effect of imposing wikipedia-derive standards on reality, and that's just not right, and not what Wikipedia is supposed to be. Sounds like there's been a lot of thoughtless "improving" of CANSTYLE without anybody actually considering what's going on in the real world. CANSTYLE and MOS in general have a lot of oddities, like the over-applied and much abused "lower case" thing, but this is out of bounds; it's like adding an apostrophe to a placename that doesn't have one....Wikipedia's design-obsessed style guidists should take a breather and evaluate exactly how far they're run amuck and without regard to the sources AND to the most common usages.Skookum1 (talk) 05:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry for the late reply. In cases like that, I strongly suspect that the use of hyphens is a result of the web designer not caring enough to look up how to make a dash, and not a result of trying to have odd punctuation. In many cities like that, whenever the city name in drawn (and therefore don't have to look up how to type a dash), they use a character of n-dash width rather than hyphen width. Nevertheless, you're right that the hyphen version is citable, so you have a case to argue for it to be changed. I recommend that you change policy at WP:CANSTYLE before making any changes to article names; otherwise someone will eventually change it back. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 05:02, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia may "like to have a consistent look and feel", but that doesn't mean it can take liberties with established style/spelling conventions just because of appearance and standardization. The RD's own site, all government publications that I am aware of, including BCGNIS, and StatsCan, use hyphen-no-spaces, which is a citable spelling. Wikipedia's desire to have a "consistent look and feel" are irrelevant in the face of citations from the horse's mouth.Skookum1 (talk) 04:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
[undent] Misunderstood your Chicago reference, needless to say. As for laws using it, that's not surprising; given Hansard uses it, the Ministry of Municipal Affairs uses it, BCGNIS uses it, BC Basemap uses it, MoF uses it, and Hansard uses it. Since you're in Victoria, it's far easier for you to go down to the Leg, ask at the information desk where the Public Affairs Bureau is, and see if you can find someone who might say whether or not there is a style guide; another suggested place to ask/look would be the Queen's Printer (now a privatized company but still publishing govenrment materials, including Hansard) and you could try at the Speaker's Office or Provincial Secretary. One of them will know where it is; it may be a spellchecker dictionary inbuilt via BC Systems by now, who knows. But it's pretty damned clear that BC style guides have been around a lot longer than digitized em-dashes.Skookum1 (talk) 08:58, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
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