User talk:Betty Logan

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Rule of the shorter term[edit]

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For your eyes only...[edit]

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Merry Christmas[edit]

For Your Eyes Only![edit]

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The $750,000 question[edit]

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Hello Betty, Not sure if this is in the right place. Forgive me for I am new. In regards to my edits on Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. I am sourcing this page .. When I try to do it on my phone it does not save properly. When done from my computer it instead references Jk Rowling book series. How do I fix this problem because there are more things I'd like to add to that page. Thank you for your help and patience lordjoshua420 (talk) 13:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Definition of veganism.[edit]

By all accounts there has never ever been a definition of veganism that includes honey or bees products. Every definition of veganism that has ever existed, including on Wikipedia, means to avoid the use and consumption of animals products. Honey is an animal product is it not? Or do you count bees as a plant?

Motion Picture Rating System[edit]

I've reverted your latest version. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:17, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


On the one hand, your post to WP:AN was a reasonable approach to the table having been broken. On the other hand, it was reasonable for another reason than you expected. There was very little possibility that you would be given permission to breach 3RR, but, since WP:AN is watchlisted heavily, you would be likely to get another editor to make the change for you, since 3RR doesn't apply to other editors. If the change had been simple vandalism, 3RR would not apply, but it appears that it wasn't vandalism, but a good-faith error by the other editor, compounded by making improper changes to the table. If the other editor resumes editing the table when coming off the block, please go back to WP:ANEW and request a longer block. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:42, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Will you please stop changing the ratings? you only signed up to make ratings wrong. The NC-17 means adults only, don't believe me? see Blue is the warmest color trailer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:10, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh no...[edit]

hmmm.... here we No again, doctor? - SchroCat (talk) 15:43, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I've reverted this. I recall the ruling at Commons being explicitly clear that we could only host the file here. Betty Logan (talk) 17:21, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Betty Logan, hey thanks for semi-protecting the motion picture rating system, there were many vandalism which violates the 3RR code. and the PG does not have an age. Its for all ages with parental guidance. but any who thanks for sorting it out later man BasicallyIdowrk — Preceding unsigned comment added by BasicallyIdowrk (talkcontribs) 11:51, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

List of highest-grossing films[edit]

Please explain to me:

1. What sources based box office franchises James Bond, Superman, Star Trek? Where did the box office $190400000, $80200000 and $36700000 for Superman II, III, IV? Or James Bond franchise? Unless Boxoffice and The Numbers are not reliable sources? I did this changes to these sources. I don't understand.

2. Why Batman franchise have Catwoman?

Thanks, KIRILL1995 (talk) 17:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

All the sources used are all listed at the ended of the article in "Franchise sources". Box Office Mojo and The Numbers are fine as a rule, but sometimes we use other sources because i) they are incomplete ii) in rare cases better sources (such as with older films) are available. As for the reasons for each franchise here they are:
  1. The Superman figures come "George Lucas' Blockbusting" written by Alex Ben Block because neither Box Office Mojo or The Numbers list worldwide figures. If you actually look at those sites (as opposed to the Wikipedia articles) you will see they only list the American grosses which means they are missing global data. BOM only has US data for Superman 2-4 so that is why we use the book for this franchise. Replacing the current numbers with those from BOM means we would only have domestic totals in some cases.
  2. All the Star Trek figures come from The Numbers site to be consistent, since Box Office Mojo does not list worldwide grosses for all the films. Some of Box Office Mojo's data differs slightly by a million here or a million there, but in the absence of not knowing which source is more accurate then it's probably better to use the same source for all the data.
  3. The older James Bond figures (up to Dalton) come from the George Lucas book since Box Office Mojo does not have them for the older films. The later figures (from Brosnan onwards) uses Box Office Mojo. We used to use The Numbers for the James Bond films but we discovered it was inconsistent with many books about the James Bond films, so the James Bond project decided to use the book instead. You can fully read that discussion at User_talk:SchroCat/Archive_4#James_Bond_grosses. You can see a comparison of all the different figures for the Bond films at User:Betty_Logan/Sandbox#Bond_grosses.
  4. As for Catwoman, it is included because it is part of the Batman franchise even though Batman himself does not appear in the film. It is a spin-off from Batman Returns (Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman appears in a photograph) so exists in the same continuity. As a rule we include all spin-offs (see Supergirl in the Superman franchise, Puss-in-Boots in the Shrek franchise, The Scorpion King in the The Mummy franchise, The Clone Wars in the Star Wars franchise, and the upcoming Fantastic Beasts in the Harry Potter franchise).
I hope this helps to explain why we use certain sources over the others. Betty Logan (talk) 23:49, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

A tip[edit]

I've got the source for the new Frozen numbers now, but it's good Wiki-etiquette to leave a message on someone's talk page rather than a revert, which is considered a harsh action only to be done only when necessary. When in doubt, talking is much preferable. Dralwik|Have a Chat 02:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

... for you insight and clarity. Face-smile.svg. Schmidt, Michael Q. 10:04, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The Rocky Horror Picture Show[edit]

(Betty, in the past you have been good at taking a neutral look at disputes on this article so I am copying the same message I posted to the Film project in hopes that your good sense can help this before it gets out of hand)

An editor has pointed out an inconsistency in the soundtrack listings of the film in our articles. There is also an inconsistency in the listing in the primary source that seems to be a blatant mislabeling. How should we proceed with any changes? We need to form a consensus one way of another.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:05, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Proposed move[edit]

Hi Betty, I suspect this may already have come across your radar, but in case it hasn't, this may be of interest for you. - SchroCat (talk) 10:25, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed it actually (it's on my watchlist but an archive bot is the last edt) but I've added my comments. I don't think there is much danger at this stage. Betty Logan (talk) 08:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Wizard of Oz

The national release date for The Wizard of Oz was August 25th.. You are putting the date for one of it's three minor release dates. You also did not put a reference and removed my reference when you reverted my edit — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lordjoshua420 (talkcontribs) 20:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

inre Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Star Trek: Axanar[edit]

As the article on Star Trek: Axanar can be seen as TOO SOON for its own article, I gave the situation some thought, some research, and created one on Prelude to Axanar in my draftspace. As Prelude has coverage it can be seen to meet WP:NF and, as it has been released we have no worries about WP:NFF. That said, I invite you to visit and consider the section at Prelude to Axanar#Planned feature film as a suitable redirect target for the much smaller,less comprehensive, and poorly sourced Star Trek: Axanar when I move my draft to article space. What'cha say? Schmidt, Michael Q. 09:31, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I will fully support that solution, Michael! Good work. Betty Logan (talk) 14:29, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
After a few final tweaks, the draft has now been moved to Prelude to Axanar. Have a great day. Face-smile.svg Schmidt, Michael Q. 14:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Gone With The Wind[edit]

Why did you revert my "dubious" marker? The existing text is inaccurate, as watching the opening of the movie will demonstrate. One minute into the opening of the film, as the opening credits appear on the screen, the names of the four principal actors are shown, so, contrary to what the text of the article, they do receive top billing, and there is nothing unusual. The items referred to in the text occur later on in the opening. I attempted to insert a You Tube video that shows the opening credits, but Wikipedia does not permit the insertion of You Tube videos.John Paul Parks (talk) 01:10, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I reverted you because you didn't provide any explanation for the tag—either in the edit summary or on the talk page as you said you had. You can watch the opening credits at [1], which includes the billing credits and cast lists. Betty Logan (talk) 01:19, 1 September 2014 (UTC) EDIT: I don't quite understand what you saying, because the article does say that the principals get top-billing. Betty Logan (talk) 01:23, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Lana/Larry issue again.[edit]

Dear Betty,

You guess it. It's the same trouble on the Matrix article. I might need a bit of your help convincing people there. Just thinking about the trouble gives me a huge headache already. Anthonydraco (talk) 15:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Harry Potter:Goblet of Fire I keep adding this as the source Though after the edit is saved the source keeps referencing Harry Potter Series by JK Rowling. Please help me fix this issue [[User:lordjoshua420 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lordjoshua420 (talkcontribs) 17:07, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I strongly urge you to stop reverting and gain a consensus on the talk page for your additions. You have already been blocked once for edit-warring in the last week, and another incursion in such a short period of time would result in a lengthy block. You have actually broken 3RR, but I am going to cut you some slack since you are a new editor. Betty Logan (talk) 17:53, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I sourced my last edit and the information I edited is accurate i don't understand why you are removing my edit. I provided a source Is there something I'm still not doing correctly? lordjoshua420 (talk) 14:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding your disruptive edit on the Missing White Woman Syndrome article.[edit]

Refer to the talk page of the Missing White Woman article. AChildOfTwoCultures (talk) 16:35, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Think you for proposing the step that I should have proposed ages ago: now passed by consensus, and a better, less fraught talk page ahead of us all! – SchroCat (talk) 06:49, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Your welcome! To be fair it probably wouldn't have passed if either you/Cass/Blofeld had proposed it on impartiality grounds. No-one should have to put up with that kind of haranguing for two years though—it would have driven me around the twist!

Personal Attack in Merge War[edit]

On the one hand, there is, as you note, a merge war in progress, and the merge is being reverted out of process. On the other hand, your claim that one of the editors is a "pathological liar" is a very strong personal attack, and you could be blocked for it when the merge warrior is blocked for the merge war. Please do not make personal attacks. (The matter of the editor's block log is not a personal attack, although it is a bit stale, but WP:NPA is an enforced policy.) Robert McClenon (talk) 15:15, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough Robert, you make a sound point. I have struck out the "pathological" bit but I reserve the right to point out dishonest claims pertinent to the discussion itself. Betty Logan (talk) 16:18, 17 September 2014 (UTC)


Just in case there was any doubt about his actual age, the fake signature he pulled with his latest sock was actually pretty hard to spot. Meters (talk) 22:49, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's hope it will "lights out" for him! Betty Logan (talk) 04:08, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

October 2014[edit]

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Hello BL. Remembering your work on this User:Betty Logan/BRD enforcer I thought that you might find this Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 116#WP:BRD as essay of interest. Best regards. MarnetteD|Talk 18:13, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I suggested making it a policy/guideline once before at the village pump too and it was kicked into the grass. I don't really understand the logic: if edit-warring is a policy breach then technically breaching BRD is a policy breach too so I don't see the problem with setting it in stone. It would certainly make life easier if editors were compelled to follow BRD, but I guess the reason it never gets the support is that there are too many editors with too much to lose if everyone is forced to play fair. Betty Logan (talk) 13:53, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Motion picture rating system: Swedish "från 15 år" rating[edit]

You have reverted my edit of Swedish "15" age rating, but there is in fact a "från 15 år" rating.

It is only the English-language "Statens Mediaråd" page that doesn't explicitly mention the "15" classification.

On the Swedish-language page it is mentioned as "15-årsgränsen", and that a movie can fall under this for two reasons, if submitted for classification and not approved for children, or if not submitted for classification:

It is mentioned (in English) as "The age ratings are “all ages”, 7, 11 and “not approved”, the latter resulting in a 15 rating.":

The "från 15 år" rating is used in the "Statens Mediaråd" Film Database, and is explained on this page:

And Swedish cinemas write "från 15 år" or "15 år" on their schedules and advertising:

Bo Johansson — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I reverted because you changed information so that it contradicted the source. You say the English version is inaccurate and the native Swedish source says there is a 15 rating? The only problem though is that I can't read Swedish and Google translate leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation. Obviously I would like to ensure the information is correct, therefore I have a couple questions:
  1. What is the difference between a "15" rating and the "Not approved" rating?
  2. What is the difference between "Not approved" and "unrated"?
Betty Logan (talk) 11:14, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

1. As I understand it, the age limits are set by law (SFS 2010:1882), these are "all ages", 7, 11, and 15 years. Mediarådet's task is to check if films are harmful to children, so they can approve a film for children of all ages, from 7 years, 11 years, or not approve it for children. If they don't approve it, the 15-year limit applies.

2. The 15-year limit applies for films that have been submitted to Mediarådet and not approved for children, and also for films that have not been submitted to Mediarådet. The last category might be called "unrated".

Bo Johansson — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 18:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I am going to make the corrections in line with your comments. I will also add in the native Swedish source too and we will see how it works out. Betty Logan (talk) 09:29, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Something similar to your proposal[edit] --Ring Cinema (talk) 15:18, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know, Ring. I will take a closer look this evening. Betty Logan (talk) 16:41, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure if you're monitoring this. --Ring Cinema (talk) 16:00, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

RM notification[edit]

Since you have participated in at least one Requested Move or Move Review discussion, either as participant or closer, regarding the title of the article currently at Sarah Jane Brown, you are being notified that there is another discussion about that going on now, at Talk:Sarah Jane Brown#Requested move #10. We hope we can finally achieve consensus among all participating about which title best meets policy and guidelines, and is not too objectionable. --В²C 16:51, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Guardians of the Galaxy - Box office[edit]

This is a neutral notice for a discussion about the box office section of this film.Spinc5 (talk) 16:10, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

I appreciate your comment HERE, but I wonder how we'd address his (likely) asking again about my not having seen this Kannada film, my reliance on the good faith edit of another user (whom I presume watched the film), and how WP:FILMPLOT and WP:PLOTSUM#Citations presumptions seems to conflict with WP:NOR. Again, thank you, Schmidt, Michael Q. 12:08, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

If he were saying the plot summary isn't accurate then you would need to be in a position to discuss the content then (which would require watching the film) but that isn't the reason for his edit. You disagree with his rationale that the summary isn't sourced, so you are entitled to revert on that basis. In regards to NOR, watching a film and summarising the content is essentially no different to reading a book or a newspaper article and summarising the content, which is basically the whole point of Wikipedia. Betty Logan (talk) 23:34, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Reference Errors on 3 November[edit]

Hello, I'm ReferenceBot. I have automatically detected that an edit performed by you may have introduced errors in referencing. It is as follows:

Please check this page and fix the errors highlighted. If you think this is a false positive, you can report it to my operator. Thanks, ReferenceBot (talk) 00:55, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Same thing as months ago[edit]

Well, I though it was good to be back after several months. But now the same editor who drove me away before with his repeated "fuck offs" and the admin who says it's OK to tell other editors to fuck off are it again. I just wanted to explain to my friends here, in case this is goodbye, that I was minding my own business, not even thinking about that foulmouthed person, and just trying to put it behind me. But within days of my return he's on my talk page, poking me a stick. And the admin is saying, literally, that if I don't like being told "fuck off" that all my past good work means nothing and that I should leave Wikipedia.

I don't know what my future is here. I've started an ANI here, and hopefully something will come of that. I just wanted to let some of the good and responsible editors here know, and that if they're interested in following what's going on, that's the link. I am disheartened as hell. --Tenebrae (talk) 10:09, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Betty. That means a lot. I value your contributions and collegiality a lot, and I appreciate very much your standing up for me. Honestly, I did not think it was controversial or wrong to ask not to be cursed at. I'm not sure the admins involved represent the best of Wikipedia. But you and my other good colleagues do! --Tenebrae (talk) 20:36, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Century break (snooker article)[edit]

Hi, not sure why you undid my edit on the Century break article. Ronnie O'Sullivan now has 758 century breaks, and I even updated the reference to a reliable website, Sky Sports. The link is here, and it's in the 7th paragraph. Feudonym (talk) 02:18, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

It is obvious isn't it? The table is structured as 50 century increments, apart from the world record set by Hendry. Betty Logan (talk) 04:47, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Ah I see. Sorry, I didn't actually look at the rest of the table, and the fact that it says 'Threshold' instead of 'Total' or something – my mistake. I guess I must have assumed that as I'm so used to that convention being the norm. Having said that, I find it a puzzling way of doing things and I personally disagree with it. Just out of interest, when O'Sullivan one day, inevitably, eclipses Hendry's record, will Hendry go back down to 750 as that is the previous threshold? Very bizarre. Feudonym (talk) 05:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
The main reason for using thresholds is because the data keeps changing and it is difficult to keep accurate figures. Most of the data becomes outdated as soon as it is entered. Even Ronnie's 758 is out of date because he played two more matches after that report. In the case of Hendry I'm not sure what will happen once Ronnie overtakes it. My guess is that it will be retained due to the fact i) it was an important world record, and crucially ii) Hendry is retired so it won't change. Betty Logan (talk) 06:56, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
OK, but I still think it is not at all difficult to update the figures, maybe the top 10 players, if not daily then at least weekly, and have an "As of [current week]" heading at the top of the table. It is done for other sports all the time, football from personal experience, usually in near real time, let alone daily. If Hendry's figure is retained then the format is made redundant. Feudonym (talk) 04:39, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Trust me, it is. We used to do it that way but they were always out of date. The only reason Ronnie's count is being updated regularly is because he is closing in on the record, but try finding John Higgins' current count from a reliable source. Betty Logan (talk) 05:51, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Reversions on Spirited Away[edit]

Hi, could you explain why you reverted MOS formatting edits by me and bot, as you are not new to Wikipedia I assume that you are familiar with WP:MOS. Oh wait! you are a senior editor. That means you are more experienced than me Face-grin.svg. Anyway I use a tool called Advisor.js to format articles according WP:MOS style. I hope you have a good explanation to your reversions. Thank you--Chamith (talk) 08:00, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

And there is one more thing, according to WPCleaner there was a Template programming element error in the article, so I let the tool fix it.It created a mess in the ref section. I guess that's why you reverted my edit. But other edits are perfectly fine.Dreaworks is not the correct name of the animation company, their official trademark/name is DreamWorks. I don't see anything useful in this edit. I think what you wanted is to fix that template Template:Mainichi Film Award - Animation Film Award. It's Ok, I fixed it manually without changing other edits. If there is only one mistake in someone's edit try to fix it manually, without reverting all the other good faith edits. Cheers Face-smile.svg--Chamith (talk) 08:12, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I reverted the edits because you had obviously used an automated tool that had introduced at least two template errors into the article that I could count. It didn't look to be working right or hadn't been used correctly, so I thought it was better to revert the whole edit. I could have manually fixed the errors but there were quite a few changes and I could have easily missed something. Generally automated tools are not a great idea unless you are doing something specific on wide scale. Many of these "fixes" which seem harmless on surface can actually break stuff, such as links etc, so it is always wise to check each each fix manually. Betty Logan (talk) 18:44, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Audience response proposal[edit]

Hi. I saw your reversion of my addition of user ratings to Dracula Untold and followed your note to MOS:FILM, which I hadn't previously read. Now duly informed, I have questioned the section of the guideline that disapproves of these particular user stats, in the form of a guideline change proposal. Cheers. --Tsavage (talk) 03:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

December 7th revert of reference link[edit]

What are the standards by which a link can be used for reference when it contain the text of an article being referenced? I have looked at several sites to find one that would be able to replace the dead guardian link. I fear you would revert all of them back to the dead link. Dairyfarmer777 (talk)

I will be leaving input at the vegetarians page in a few moments so it will be best to not add anything until I have left my comments and both you and Martin Hogbin have a chance to respond to them. Betty Logan (talk) 23:05, 7 December 2014 (UTC)


If it's still playing then show proof and add it as a source. KahnJohn27 (talk) 05:59, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Forget it I already found it. However the last weekend (Dec 12 -14) hasn't been added which might indicate the film has stopped playing. KahnJohn27 (talk) 06:03, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Also one most important thing. It isn't "still playing" in UK. It's a re-release therefore can be listed as currently playing. Look at the source yourself. KahnJohn27 (talk) 06:06, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
I know what the source says, I added it. And yes, it is still playing and will be throughout the entire xmas period. Betty Logan (talk) 07:05, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
You're mistaken. According to the source the film stopped playing in July 2014. However started playing again in last week of November. It's not "still playing" but it's a "re-release". KahnJohn27 (talk) 07:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Also it's actually a special sing-along version release and not a normal release [2]. KahnJohn27 (talk) 07:41, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
No, I am not mistaken. It is still playing. It is besides the point whether it is a reissue or not. The only reason last week's box office results haven't been added yet is because it takes Box Office Mojo a few days to update foreign box office. This week's box office may not be added until after xmas but that doesn't alter the fact it is still playing. There is just a bit of lag in the updates, that is the only reason last week is not listed on Box Office Mojo. Betty Logan (talk) 08:03, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Titanic was re-released in 2012 so you can't call it "still playing". Sing-alongs of Frozen have been released in other countries too. A re-issue is not "still playing". The film had already stopped playing in UK in July 2014 acc. to BOM. KahnJohn27 (talk) 08:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
If Titanic's reissue had already been added to the box office and someone had updated the source to reflect that, then it would be entirely correct to state it is "still playing" relative to the currently documented stage of its release. A quick check of the source would have confirmed to you that the film was playing as of the start of December. Now I understand you made an honest mistake, but you've got your answer, so let's not waste any more time on this unproductive discussion. Betty Logan (talk) 08:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

"Notable" awards[edit]

Hi Betty, I'm brushing up List of accolades received by The Imitation Game, having split it off from the film's own article. Am I right in remembering that we only tend to include in the list those awards from organisations that have their own article? (and thus I can happily delete Aspen, Chicago and the EuroCinema Hawaii Awards, along with a few others?) Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:19, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that is correct. It was certainly my position in a discussion on the subject but I can't recall if there was ever any resolution. Anyway, have a nice Christmas yourself! Betty Logan (talk) 09:46, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Re edits to Yardley of London and Perfume Encyclopaedia[edit]

Out of curiosity, what makes the Encyclopaedia of Perfume unreliable? Has their unreliability been confirmed? As far as I've been able to tell they are no more or less reliable than print sources, and at least seem pretty straightforward, plus it's not an individual person, but a team of people working together... Mabalu (talk) 22:49, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

It is not up to me to disprove reliability, it is up to the person who wants to use a source to prove its reliability. As it stands the dates provided by the source contradict the information given by another valid news source, so one of the sources is clearly wrong. The other source is a legitimate newspaper, so what makes the Encyclopaedia of Perfume reliable? Who publishes it and what is their background? Is there any professional oversight? If these two questions cannot be answered satisfactorily then a source cannot be proven to be reliable. Betty Logan (talk) 02:57, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
The thing with perfume dates, is that they're all over the place. Newspapers repeat what they're told by the company PR, and for a while, English Blazer (the focus of the edits) had an EXTREMELY fake history behind it that was being pushed by publicity, etc - claiming that it had been around since the 1950s even though it was demonstrably BS. I've found the Encyclopaedia REALLY useful for basic date info and other info, such as types of fragrance, etc - they usually make it clear that a date is an estimate. You can find "reliable sources" giving dates that go ALL over the place for this particular subject.... Mabalu (talk) 23:39, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't make the encyclopedia a reliable source though, it just makes it useful resource for checking stuff. If there are other reliable sources giving other dates then they should be incorporated into the article. Betty Logan (talk) 02:15, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Liver dumplings[edit]

Liver dumplings are not vegetarian... — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeoLi1234 (talkcontribs) 03:52, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Please conduct article discussion at the article talk page, not on my talk page. Betty Logan (talk) 03:55, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Merry Merry[edit]

A very happy Christmas and New Year to you! Scrooges third visitor-John Leech,1843.jpg

May 2014 bring you joy, happiness – and no trolls or vandals!

All the best

Gavin / SchroCat (talk) 09:32, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

To you and yours


FWiW Bzuk (talk) 16:09, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Christmas Postcard circa 1900.jpg Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas Betty Logan, blessings and best wishes for 2015!
MarnetteD|Talk 19:32, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
  • I really should get myself one of these greeting templates so I don't look ignorant. Hope you all had a pleasant day and all the best for the New Year. Betty Logan (talk) 08:44, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Twelfth Night[edit]

Hi - did you read the talk page? It's pretty clear that there is no definitive date for 12th night, and the article needs to reflect this. I have meant to fix this for a long time, but your edits spurred me on. Does the Shorter OD really say 5th with no caveat? That's odd if it does, as the 2nd edition of the Oxford Dictionary of English, the big single volume, gives the 5th first (see my edit summary). If you think the article is wrong, please use the talk page to discuss it rather than simply revert me, as there are multiple sources that show the different dates. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi Dougweller, I didn't realize I had reverted anyone on Twelfth Night (so I apologize if I undermined any work you had done). The Twelve Days of Christmas has undergone a few re-writes and there was some Twelfth Night material that was better suited to that article, so I re-wrote the lede around the sources that were available. I didn't realize there was an issue at the article. The Oxford Dictionary of English definition was present in the article prior to my edits so I just stuck by what it said, so in all honesty I do not know if it really says that. The quote from it seemed fairly exact though. Betty Logan (talk) 14:09, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Ah, I must have misread something. You didn't undermine anything I'd done. I don't have the Shorter Oxford, but the very large single volume version says "Twelfth Night" noun 6 January, the fest of the Epiphany. That first line is what is called the "core sense". The next line, which in OED speak is a "subsense" and is written in a smaller font says "Strictly, the evening of 5 January, the eve of the Epiphany and formerly the twelfth and last day of Christmas festivities". Dougweller (talk) 14:53, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
I have looked over your re-write and have no major issues with it. It seems to fairly represent the sources (to the extent I can judge them) and incorporates what I added in too. I wouldn't be surprised if other editors alter it in the coming days though so let me know if you need any input on the talk page. Betty Logan (talk) 17:26, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

December 2014[edit]

You've annoyed me a great deal, don't corrupt my talk page again. Corabal (talk) 18:05, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Gone as far as to involve someone else to back you up on here now, you are pathetic. Corabal (talk) 19:06, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Man up and address my points at the article talk page rather than sulking on my talk page. Betty Logan (talk) 20:20, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


Hello Betty, I've been working on Frozen-related articles and would like to ask you something. The film's music was recently nominated for a number of Grammys, and I'm wondering if they should be included in the film's accolades page, or just mentioning it in the soundtrack article would be enough. With regards, —ALittleQuenhi (talk to me) 16:48, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I honestly don't know, but Skyfall#Accolades includes a couple of grammy awards. Personally I would add them and then if anyone removes them it can be discussed further on the talk page. Betty Logan (talk) 18:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

What'cha think[edit]

about this... the longest article I've written to date and a fine way to wind up 2014: The Centrifuge Brain Project.Face-smile.svg Schmidt, Michael Q. 22:48, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

It's good, you've been quite busy this Christmas! Keep up the good work and Happy New Year. Betty Logan (talk) 21:12, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Happy New Year![edit]

Fuochi d'artificio.gif

Dear Betty Logan,
HAPPY NEW YEAR Hoping 2015 will be a great year for you! Thank you for your contributions!
From a fellow editor,
--FWiW Bzuk (talk)

This message promotes WikiLove. Originally created by Nahnah4 (see "invisible note").

Happy New Year![edit]

Fuochi d'artificio.gif

Dear Betty Logan,
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! Thank you for your consistently excellent work through the years. Last year was a hard one, both physically, thanks to medical ailments, and on Wikipedia, thanks to a plethora of Wikitrolls. Colleagues like you make staying here worthwhile. Here's to a better year to all!
--Tenebrae (talk) 23:23, 2 January 2015 (UTC)


Hello, Betty Logan. Please check your email – you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{YGM}} template.

- SchroCat (talk) 08:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Pirates of the Caribbean (film series)[edit]

Hi Betty, thanks for the correction. Should we maybe consider an embedded note? I only made the change since the value has been compromised a few times. Frankly it was unclear to me why the budget was $378M if 1) there are two sources, 2) one source doesn't indicate this value, 3) the other source is confusing. ? Regards, and a healthy, productive, happy new year to you! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 05:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

The Box Office Mojo source is out of date as far as the budget goes. The $378.5 million figure is derived from the Forbes article, by subtracting the tax rebate from the total expenditure to get the net production cost. It is pretty confusing but I have provided a complete explanation at Talk:Pirates_of_the_Caribbean:_On_Stranger_Tides#Confusion_over_the_budget. Betty Logan (talk) 06:45, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Walkabout deletion[edit]

Hi Betty, I am wondering why you have removed the beginning and end scenes of the Walkabout film (featuring the brick wall and the Roulette expressions)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

It is a plot summary, and the roulette framing device is incidental to the plot. See WP:FILMPLOT, which states "The plot summary is an overview of the film's main events, so avoid minutiae like dialogue, scene-by-scene breakdowns, individual jokes, and technical detail." If someone wants to know the basic storyline the details you added will not increase their understanding of the film. Betty Logan (talk) 21:32, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Then let me test your statement "If someone wants to know the basic storyline the details you added will not increase their understanding of the film." - What is your (Betty's) basic understanding of the film? If you are unable to come up with the correct answer without recourse to the frame or to third-party interviews with the producer, then I suggest reinstating the frame. Looking forward to your answer... (Apart from this basic point, the detail of the ending is at the moment inaccurate, but we will discuss that next.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:39, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I have given you an explanation for my edit and my talk page is not for discussing the article. If you wish to discuss the article further then I suggest you start a discussion at the talk page where other editors can contribute. Betty Logan (talk) 09:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
It is not acceptable to delete Wiki entries and then refer me to a general talk page - you have to take responsibility for your actions. Let me give you the first clue towards understanding the film: after the initial frame with the roulette phrase, you hear a mysterious, potentially erotic, panting noise. The camera then focuses on a class of harmless young girls, including the protagonist Aguttar, practising the pronunciation of the letter "H", hence the collective panting. Evidently an elocution class. Her RP pronunciation is emphasised at every opportinuty in the film (despite this being Australia). She and her classmates appear in neat school uniform. She then is shown with her family in a convential suburban setting at her home in a modest high-rise apartment. Betty, let me know if you want me to go on (I have better things to do on a Sunday, should you wish to be dismissive). Hoping for your cooperation, thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) IP, you've been told to take it to the article's talk page, not here. I suggest you do so, where it can get the attention it deserves, rather than the backwater of a personal talk page. FWIW, I agree that the brick wall and roulette expressions are not present in the film should not be present in the summary: they do not explain the plot, which is asummary of events, not an examination of themes. These should be explored further in a "Themes" section of the article, not in the Plot section. Either way, that is for the talk page of the article, not here. - SchroCat (talk) 12:11, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
May I just clarify a basic point when you say "the brick wall and roulette expressions are not present in the film". Do you mean (a) there is a film version of Walkabout where the opening scene has been cut out, and therefore you have not seen the opening scenes? Or do you mean (b) that you are familiar with the opening scene with the brick wall, roulette expression, the elocution classes, the city traffic, the family apartment, and picnic preparations, but you assume they are unimportant for the film plot/understanding the film? A short answer, (a) or (b), would be appreciated. (And if I do not receive encouragement from Betty, you will not hear from me again, neither here nor on a Talk page.). Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 12:28, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Poorly phrased: I have now clarified my meaning, but my two points remain: 1. This conversation needs to be on the article talk page; 2. A plot section is a rather mechanical summary of the steps the film goes through: it is not aplace to outline or discuss the "inner meaning" of the film: that is dealt with separately in the article, and should be in a Themes section. - SchroCat (talk) 12:34, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, you had me worried for a moment. As for your concerns about an "inner meaning", you should address those, perhaps with Betty, in a Themes section. I am concerned with having the plot logically and consistently presented (trivial example: in the opening scene, Aguttar swimming formally with her brother in a swimming pool surrounded by high-rise buildings within view of the Ocean(!), while in the closing scene, Aguttar dreams of swimming naked with her brother and the aboriginal in a natural swimming pool in the outback - it is misleading to mention the latter but not the former. Although I grant the latter has more attraction for the average male viewer...) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:12, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I am not referring you to a "general" talk page, I am referring you specifically to the page where edits to the article are discussed which is where all editing discussions should take place. It not only opens up the discussion to other editors it also provides an archive record for future editors. By the way, while it's largely academic IMO SchroCat is partially right: while I can corroborate the "place your bets" line is spoken at the start of the film it is not spoken at the end, at least on the Criterion release. I checked my copy of the film and it is not there. You can view the end at and the voiceover is from The Shropshire Lad. Betty Logan (talk) 14:01, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I understood what you meant - the technical term is "passing the buck". On the other hand, I see your point: if you do not have a full version of the film ("Rien ne va plus" missing at the end) then perhaps you are indeed not the right editor for the Walkabout article. And since I have not had confirmation from you that you are interested in an explanation of the plot, I end here. Have a nice remaining Sunday.

Skyfall revert[edit]

Hi, Betty, I just wanted to ask about your revert of my edit to Skyfall. It's not clear to me which "note" you referred to in your edit summary—could you please clarify? Skiasaurus (skē’ ə sôr’ əs) 17:34, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Ah sorry, the note is in the infobox next to the gross figure (I knew there was one somewhere), rather than the section you altered. Either way, there was a discussion last year resulting in the decision to avoid the use of "billion" in the article due to the ambiguity of the term in Brit English. Betty Logan (talk) 18:16, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Rachel Green[edit]

Erm, don't you think it is high time the article is protected to prevent this mass of non-constructive edits? I'd say a PC protection fits the bill. Fleet Command (talk) 10:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what "PC" protection is, but the disruption is ongoing and something probably needs to be done. Betty Logan (talk) 10:33, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
My apologies. PC stands for "pending changes". It protects the article against changes of the unregistered and recently registered users. They can edit the article but their edit won't go live. It is like semi-protection (SP); except SP stops them dead in their tracks. The thing is: I was hoping we could get PC permanently; admins don't usually enforce permanent SP on articles. Fleet Command (talk) 16:36, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Well we have three months of semi-protection now. If the problem starts up again after the protection runs down we can look into this pending changes thing. Betty Logan (talk) 16:49, 23 January 2015 (UTC)