User talk:Bkonrad/Archive 52

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Just want to point out that with this edit to Burn In Hell, you made it a self-redirect. I understand if it was a mistake, but just know that page names are case-sensitive, except in a few circumstances. Thanks. LikeLakers2 (talk | Sign my guestbook!) 19:24, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 03 September 2012

Michael Jackson and dab pages

I figured you'd be a good person to bring this up with. Perhaps you can take a look at recent activity by Jozoisis (talk · contribs), and compare that with recent activity of Xqbot (talk · contribs). Along with all the double redirects created along the way, this user is redirecting numerous valid dab pages to the Michael Jackson article. I reverted some of this activity once already, but I'm now in a position where it seems that any further efforts I could provide would probably only come off as revert warring. I believe that what is happening here is damaging, and it probably needs admin intervention to bring it under control. Your assistance with this would be much appreciated. Thank you.  -- WikHead (talk) 03:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

On second thought, this currently looks like it may already be addressed. The MJ dab page may however be worth keeping an eye on. Have yourself a great day, stay well, and happy editing Face-smile.svg!  -- WikHead (talk) 08:45, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Tom Walshaw a.k.a. Tubal Cain (model engineer) listed at Redirects for discussion


An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Tom Walshaw a.k.a. Tubal Cain (model engineer). Since you had some involvement with the Tom Walshaw a.k.a. Tubal Cain (model engineer) redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion (if you have not already done so). Andy Dingley (talk) 00:21, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 10 September 2012

Just curious...

Bkonrad, why do you keep reverting my edits? That is very very rude. If you continue to do so...--ISeeWhatYouDo (talk) 06:01, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Because your edits are unsourced, contrary to existing sources and bordering on vandalism. olderwiser 12:49, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 17 September 2012


The Clockwork Theory is not true to deism, it is unreasonable. Please read at least the first chapter of Born again Deist. Are you a Deist? if so why do you believe in the clockwork theory?

Deism is perhaps the only religion invested in its own evolution rather than in upholding its traditions. The only “ultimate assumption” in Deism - and even that is recognized to be a belief deduced via common sense - is that God is the Creator and sustainer of existence as we know it. Beth Houston - Born again Deist

Most people today probably remember Deism from junior high or high school history class as an antiquated philosophy held by some of America's Founding Fathers and other Enlightenment intellictuals in Europe. Merely a fringe worldview that resembled scientific determinism of pagan nature worship more than any of the major world religions, Deism had something to do with a Clockmaker God who wound up the universe and left it to run on its own like a ticking clock. The pop quiz definition, with its impersonal God and mechanical Creation, IS A MODERN MISCONCEPTION of a thriving, immensely popular religion that prevaded American society during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries- a religion as thoroughly understood by early Americans as it is misunderstood by most Americans Today. Beth Houston, Born Again Deist.

Conservative Christians demonized Deist ideas during the eighteenth-century Enlightenment just as it had in the previous century. Many of us Americans were taught in our history classes that Thomas paine was atheist or agnostic, and that the Deists' "Clockmaker God" was obviously no longer engaged with nature or humanity, making God, in effect the absent Father. But in fact Paine was a passionate believer in a dynamically creating, actively virtuous God, and "Clockmaker God" was a term coined by reactionary Christians who wanted to discredit the Deist and their rational theologies. Beth Houston, Born Again Deist.

Deism, on the other hand, truly maintains its faith in beliefs and respects any belief that does not contradict common sense. One might even argue that common sense itself is the high priest of Deism. Beth Houston, Born Again Deist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsomeone (talkcontribs) 16:53, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I have no particular interest in Deism. However, your edits are disruptive. If you have issues with the current content of the deism article, please discuss them at Talk:Deism. olderwiser 16:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I am just the beginning, we are coming to fix this definition, in numbers. if you want to be honest you need to help us fix Wikipedia. Deism has nothing to do with the Clockmaker or Clockwork theory. etc...

This is something created by Christians to discredit Deism, are you Deist or Christian?

If you are not Deist, Please leave, if your are Deist Please Help.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsomeone (talkcontribs) 16:59, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

If you are Christian please Leave, If you are Deist please help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsomeone (talkcontribs) 17:02, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Anyone can edit any article at Wikipedia. Being a deist is not a prerequisite for editing the article on deism. And being a member of another faith or no faith at all is not a bar. In fact, it may be a detriment if one is unable to edit from a neutral point of view. olderwiser 17:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Please stop

Please stop deleting the truth, The Clock Maker or Clockwork theory is untrue to the definition of Deism, And it is unreasonable, This can be proven in many books, but is best summed up by Beth Houston in the first chapter of her book "Born Again Deist".

If you are not Deist please leave, if you are Deist please help.

But please stop spreading untrue definitions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsomeone (talkcontribs) 17:13, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

No, you need to stop making disruptive edits and demands that have no basis in wikipedia policies or guidelines and discuss how to improve the deism article on the talk page. olderwiser 17:15, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
I have reported Dsomeone at WP:EWN. As a heads-up, I linked to the discussion here as well. eldamorie (talk) 17:22, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Beth Houston has done the research for us, Her book is the most reasonable and true writing on Deism you will find. If you are Deist you will know this. If you are not then you are spreading false, unreasonable and misleading information. which is all contrary to Deism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsomeone (talkcontribs) 17:23, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Bkonrad, I have to say that you should've stopped reverting as well. You're also way past the 3RR threshold in this content dispute. None of Dsomeone's edits constitute vandalism or violations of the BLP policy. So your reverts should have been limited to three. I'm not going to block you since I have already blocked Dsomeone for one day and so won't revert him any longer today. But consider yourself warned about edit warring in this matter. De728631 (talk) 17:38, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

MacLean variants

Anglicisations of Gaelic names (both Irish and Scottish) very often (usually, probably) have numerous variants. Although there are instances when spelling variants of apparently similar names may indicate a different origin (and conversely there are names which have a variety of origins or derivations but the same spelling), McClain and McLane are simply some of the numerous spelling variants of the anglicisations of Mac Gill-Eain (or Mac Gille Eoin, Mac Ghill' Eathain if you like, for some Gaelic spelling variants), probably the most common of which is MacLean.

George F. Black's "The Surnames of Scotland" (1946, The New York Public Library) lists Maclean, MacClean, MacLaine, MacLane and MacCleane alone at the start of the relevant entry, but then goes on to list well over fifty further variants within the text. It is rather a problem with Wikipedia that separate articles are often created for each spelling variant of a name and although the article may list other variants under "See also" it is not always clear when they are just different spellings of the same name. I believe it to be misleading to have separate entries based purely on spelling variation.

Although I can't see it specified in WP:DABNOT, if one is not to list pronunciations in DAB pages, fair enough. I am however interested to know what alternative pronunciation you believe these two spellings to have. I had created the audio file as the potentially confusing spelling of the "MacLean" variant is likely to confuse as to its pronunciation but decided to also include it in entries for other spellings listed in Wikipedia, even when these spellings may actually be closer to the pronunciation. It is possible that outside of Scotland, variant pronunciations have arisen for McClain and McLane; I am not aware of this but if you are, I would be interested to know. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:18, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

So far as there is an additional link which does not lead to an article, the pronunciation links serve no purpose on disambiguation pages. As for variant pronunciations, I very much doubt that McLane or McLaine (or similar variants) are consistently pronounced the same as McLean. olderwiser 00:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
My apologies, I've re-read it several times but I'm afraid I don't understand the first sentence above. The pronunciation simply shows pronunciation in a dab page which does not have a link to any main article on the surname itself; it's not and is not intended to be a link. Also please clarify what you think the pronunciation of these spellings actually is; as mentioned, per Black these are purely spelling variations, no pronunciation variant is mentioned therein, I haven't heard and can't conceive of what a variant pronunciation may be so your simply "very much doubting they are pronounced the same" would benefit from elaboration. For example, Shirley MacLaine's name is always pronounced, as far as I'm aware, consistently with that in the audio file. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:42, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Disambiguation pages are basically navigation aids and do not contain content independent of the article to which they refer. The pronunciation guide is a link to something that is not an ambiguously titled article. I'd expect that MacLane and similar variants would more likely be pronounced to rhyme with lane than with lean. Such a pronunciation guide might be appropriate in an article, but it is of little or no use for the purposes of disambiguating articles titles. olderwiser 01:58, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Ok, that's possibly got to the bottom of it regarding the pronunciation. To me the audio file does unambiguously rhyme with "lane" and would sound quite different were it to rhyme with "lean" (which none of the variants of the surname do). Perhaps to some non-Scots ears it may sound akin to their pronunciation of "lean"; I'm not sure and despite repeated listenings I don't find it easy to conceive. Whatever, it would seem appropriate to have the file with a Scots accent. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:33, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
If the page were an article exclusively about the name, a pronunciation guide might be appropriate. But it is of no value on a disambiguation page, especially where there is likely to be variation in the pronunciation. olderwiser 13:22, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
I was talking about the pronunciation only in my last post, no longer about dab pages. If we are talking at cross-purposes I'll try to clarify: all variants of MacLean (to my knowledge, although this may not be the case outwith Scotland) sound the same and rhyme with "lane", per the audio file. None rhyme with "lean"; there is no variation. I had understood you believed at least the two spellings in question to rhyme with "lane" and I concur and would extend it to all spellings. If the issue is a difference between the pronunciation of "lane" in your accent and the Scots accent in the file and you hear the file to be rhyming with "lean", for the sake of illustration here is a file with a (correct) "lane" pronunciation followed by a "lean" (mis-)pronunciation for comparison:(About this sound listen ).
As the pronunciation is not counter-intuitive for the two spellings in question, that is another possible reason for not including it on these dab pages. As mentioned earlier, I believe the more fundamental problem to be the tendency on Wikipedia to have a multitude of dab pages for what is in fact the same name but with no solid indication when they are entirely synonymous, divided in all likelihood only by arbitrary decisions made by registrars or immigration officials over a century ago. My MacDiarmid great-grandmother's family records indicate over ten diiferent spellings of that surname in various birth, marriage, death and census records.
I guess I could indicate pertinent connections between synonymous surnames in preambles. The "see also" section is insufficient for this as it is as likely to indicate differentiation as synonymity. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:35, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
This ogg file sounds like it rhymes with lean to my ear. It did not seem appropriate for McLane and similar spellings. olderwiser 15:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough but that's the way we talk in Scotland, and it is a Scottish name. My ear has difficulty in conceiving it as anything other than rhyming with "lane". Per the second pronunciation in the file above it is distinct from a Scottish "lean" sound. Anyway, thanks for the dialogue, it's been informative. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:10, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Grey oak - help

Following on from my discussion on Talk:Grey oak) - I just saw you fixed the Latin class DAB (Horse mussel) - good, at least I understand it now! Can you help me? My understanding is that if there's a specific class of disambig, then use that, else use the main {disambig}. right? OK, so why don't we have a species class, and how do I go about creating one? This is such an obvious class, I'm assuming there's a flaw in my logic - as someone else would have done this already, right? OK, now, where do these "class" DABs stop and set-index start - as ship names for instance are set-index. Can you disambiguate? Widefox; talk 09:46, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Repy moved to Talk:Grey oak#DAB with exclusively items in one class/type. olderwiser 12:13, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 24 September 2012

Pennsylvania townships

Your cooperation with the Pennsylvania wikiproject would be desirable. Please stop moving pages against the project's established naming convention for townships, which mandates the county name's inclusion in all articles. Your comment of "non-existent naming convention" will easily be proven wrong by checking all Pennsylvania townships-by-county categories: this will reveal that your pagemoves are going against project consensus, as will the move log for Bensalem Township, Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Nyttend (talk) 06:48, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Please stop moving townships to names in disregard of consenus established by requested move discussions. And the examination of the categories shows that you have recently moved a lot of township articles to produce the very consistency that you claim as evidence of a convention. olderwiser 12:41, 29 September 2012 (UTC)
Have you looked at the discussion at Talk:Bensalem Township, Pennsylvania and Talk:Horton Township, Elk County, Pennsylvania. Your moves are against consensus. Please start a new discussion if you think the names should be changed again. olderwiser 12:45, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 01 October 2012

Proposed change to WP:Disambiguation

Thank you for your comments on Danilovsky District, that and a discussion with Ezhiki, got me thinking. I've initiated a proposal at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation on Set index articles definition and List disambiguation first over set index article with same coverage. --Bejnar (talk) 23:31, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute in which you may have been involved. Content disputes can hold up article development, therefore we request your participation in the discussion to help find a resolution. The thread is "Deism". Thank you! — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talktrack) 19:34, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Green River (Deerfield River)

Hi Bkonrad. I attend The University of New Hampshire and for a project I need to create a Wikapedia article. I was going to make my article on the Green River the runs through Greenfield MA. I noticed that you deleted an article titled: Green River (Deerfield River) and was wondering what your reasoning for this was and whether you were planning on doing anything with it in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjr232 (talkcontribs) 18:37, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The page I deleted was a redirect to Green River (Massachusetts). At the time that page was a redirect to the Deerfield River article. The problem is that there are at least three streams named "Green River" in Massachusetts. So I changed Green River (Massachusetts) to be a redirect to the U.S. section of the Green River disambiguation page.
I could have changed Green River (Deerfield River) to be a redirect to Deerfield River, but that article has no real information about Green River apart from a bare mention that it is a tributary. So I thought it preferable to delete the redirect so people would know by seeing the redlink that there in no article at present. I have no objections at all to creating a legitimate article on the topic. olderwiser 22:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for the clarification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjr232 (talkcontribs) 17:43, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 08 October 2012

Vienna, Michigan

Hi-I came across 4 communities in Michigan that are called Vienna in some way. You may want to incorporated them in existing articles:
  • Vienna Corners, Otsego County GNIS-1615579
  • Vienna Junction, Montmorency County GNIS-1615580
  • Vienna Junction, Monroe County GNIS-1617914
  • Vienna, Monroe County GNIS 1617913

Thanks-RFD (talk) 23:52, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

language for

Why would you not give me an example of a use for one these templates that results in incorrect and ungrammatical usage? Do you wish for me to stop hard-coding the word in for them? Hyacinth (talk) 02:05, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, pick any random transclusion from What links here for the templates. The usage that I'm most familiar with for these templates is to provide a parenthetical foreign language term for an English term mentioned in the text of an article. For example,
Aarhus is the main and biggest city in the East Jutland metropolitan area (Danish: Byregion Østjylland) ...
In 1171, Absalon issued the "Zealand church law" (Danish: Sjællandske Kirkelov) ...
In Bamberg
Yes, I would suggest that you stop and that you self-revert the changes. olderwiser 02:13, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, when you said "ungrammatical" it caused me to ignore "incorrect". I believe I have undone all the damage. I've corrected the {{lang-de}} documentation and am creating a general documentation for all templates. Hyacinth (talk) 02:42, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
Would you mind taking a look at Template:Lang-x/doc, for instance, as displayed at Template:Lang-it)?
Looks like someone else took a look. Hyacinth (talk) 08:27, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

See also sections in DAB pages

Hello, Bkonrad. You asked, "why? there's no rule that see also only contain other disambiguation pages". You are right, mostly. There is a guideline suggesting that the section may contain pages similar to or sometimes confused with the title being disambiguated, or it can include {{lookfrom}} or {{intitle}} partial-matches. I guess the things you re-added are similar to that, in that they have the word apology or apologies in their titles. I doubt that readers landing on Apology would be looking for one of those topics, but I guess it's not impossible. Happy editing, Cnilep (talk) 03:16, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Re: Nnemo

The guy is going nuts on St. Louis-related topics. Have you run into him before? Viriditas (talk) 20:39, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

No I haven't come across him before. Edits do seem a little idiosyncratic, but not so much so as to raise alarm I think. olderwiser 02:16, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The Three Kingdoms

The problem with the "cursory search" reasoning is that there are simply far more "Chinamen"/Chinese who can read and write English, than the population of England (England and Wales), Scotland and Ireland combined. The usage is definitely completely different here on the British Isles and in Europe. Does the peculiar usage within certain parts of the English-speaking World give precedence over the usage of the language as a whole, including as a lingua franca? -- KC9TV 03:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Most of the works that refer to the Chinese Three Kingdoms are not by Chinese, and there is a healthy representation of authors from the British Isles among them. If you think there is a case to be made that there is no primary topic, then propose a multi-page move at WP:RM. olderwiser 10:56, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 15 October 2012

Broken link in Things to do list

Second link in Things to do list (Disambiguation watchlist) is broken, gets error "User account expired" Tadiew (talk) 17:22, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I know. I keep it there in the unlikely possibility that the user may return and make the tool available again. You might have noticed that I refer to the first item there as "" I don't like to criticize editors who are trying to be helpful (and who in other areas have really produced some great tools), but the functionality of that new list is really disappointing compared with the previous. olderwiser 17:51, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice. I have followed it

Good morning User:Bkonrad,

Regarding "Rain check"

Thank you for your advice. I have followed it. Also, this morning – because it was not clear – I have moved the disambiguation notice from the bottom of the page to the top.

With kind regards,

Sincerely, -- Gareth Griffith-Jones/GG-J's Talk 09:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Please see WP:MOSDAB. The appropriate placement of the disambiguation notice is at the bottom of the page. olderwiser 11:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Right. Though it does seems to be in the wrong position to me. -- Gareth Griffith-Jones/GG-J's Talk 15:28, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
From a reader's perspective, they generally arrive at a disambiguation page because of a mistaken link or because they are looking for something ambiguously titled. Does placing a large template at the top of the page announcing what is essentially an editorial classification help readers find a topic they might be looking for? General consensus has been that placing the template at the top puts unnecessary verbiage and space between a reader and their objective. olderwiser 15:41, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
That's exactly in line with my thinking, generally speaking, but in this example it was confusing. -- Gareth Griffith-Jones/The Welsh Buzzard 10:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 22 October 2012

Problem formatting Wikipedia Page.

Dear Bkonrad, I was attempting add additional information Wikipedia Page on "Ira". But there appears to be some issue which I don't understand as you reverted the changes. From your short comments on the "View History" page I am guessing it is something to do with the linking to other pages. I am new to Wikipedia authoring and I am still reading and understanding the rules. I appreciate if you can tell me the mistakes I am making. Emmro (talk) 04:04, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Ira is a disambiguation page, which essentially is a navigational tool to help readers find Wikipedia articles that might otherwise share the same title (or in some cases discuss a topic in a section of the article which is ambiguous with the term). Disambiguation pages are not indexes of internet content and thus should not have entries with external links. And so far as they are navigational devices, disambiguation pages should not introduce information that is not supported by a linked article. See WP:MOSDAB for more information about formatting and style of disambiguation pages. Cheers. olderwiser 04:22, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

The Signpost: 29 October 2012