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User talk:Callanecc

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PAs at Griffin[edit]

I ask that you review the following comments which are quite typical of the behavior for which I've requested your attention. These comments are typical of the pattern that has developed on Griffin TP almost every single time I post something, or when I attempt to edit the article which is almost always reverted. It is clearly harassment and serves no helpful purpose in developing consensus. The post that resulted in the current PAs comprises links and excerpts to various WP policies and guidelines, [1], which I included in an attempt to help clarify some of the questions posed by a new collaborator, [2]. My keyboard was still warm when the following two comments were posted in response to my post rather than in response to the new collaborator's post:

  • [3] <--The remark that "This post is pretty silly", is a PA and unwarranted.
  • [4] <-- The comment, "it's disruptive to repeat this view, which is incorrect and which has previously been rejected here." is also a PA, no diffs were provided and it was unwarranted. Reciting policy on an article TP is not disruptive, it is not repeating a view, it is not incorrect, and if policy was previously rejected, I didn't know about it, and we should probably advise the Foundation so the policies can be rewritten.

If the purpose of DS is to encourage discussion and develop a consensus, then the above two PAs (what appears to be harassment) from the same few editors needs your attention. I am posting it here now because I've let such behavior slide in the past, and look where it got me. One last mention with regards to behavior issues from the same editors. The following appears to be WP:Canvassing. I certainly didn't receive any notice that the 1RR was lifted at Griffin, and neither did any of the other involved editors to my knowledge.

  • March 10, 2015 - notification 1RR restriction has ended at Griffin
  • March 11, 2015 - notification of 1RR restriction has ended at Griffin
  • February 17, 2015 - pinged another editor in an effort to bypass the 1RR you imposed. I added it because it demonstrates tag-teaming as does the above, but you have already made note of such behavior in the recent past.
  • [March 11, 2015] SPECIFICO made the following statement: While many established editors can be uncivil or even post personal attacks and accusations under the protection of various WP alliances and social connections, you have no such history or support here.

I find that last diff very disconcerting. AtsmeConsult 21:02, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Just noting that I'm looking into it and have asked for a second opinion. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 05:00, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I took the liberty of reviewing these diffs, and I'm not seeing personal attacks in the first two diffs - the first diff may be mildly uncivil, but certainly not actionable; the second comment is a reasonable statement, although citing policy occasionally is fine - if such repetition does become tendentious or disruptive, then the appropriate place to raise that is on the user talk pages, and follow WP:DR. It can also be a problem to keep repeating that something is disruptive without diffs and in the appropriate venue. I'll comment on the other diffs shortly. Dreadstar 10:29, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
  • As far as notifying others that the 0RR restriction had ended, it would have been nice for the editor to have notified everyone and placed a note on the article talk page, but there's no requirement to do so and it isn't canvassing. Dreadstar 10:52, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
  • This does appear to be canvassing designed to game the 0RR restriction; and unless there's a very good explanation otherwise, deserves a warning. Dreadstar 10:54, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
  • The final diff appears to be a good faith attempt to help the editor, but it is unhelpful to cast aspersions on others. I can't see it being actionable unless it continues or is being said on article talk pages - article talk pages are never the right place to discuss the behavior of others per WP:TPNO, WP:CIV and WP:NPA; instead follow WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE. Dreadstar 11:05, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, Dreadstar. The canvassing issue is quite obvious as you observed, and I agree with your suggestion that it deserves a warning, but there are other behavioral issues that should factor in to any decision.
Callanecc, I thank you for giving this issue your consideration, and for requesting a second opinion.
  • Atsme, I understand where you're coming from I really do. Dreadstar has explained their reasoning for calling it OR and SYNTH so I'm not going to delve into that.
I agree that some of the words Guy uses could be picked better, however what he says is supported by sources and consensus.
You also need to stop accusing people of libel, continuing to do so is becoming disruptive and may be considered a personal attack as it has already discussed and decided that it is not.
Go back to article content, leave the accusations of libel out and work on fixing the article that way. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 02:23, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
  1. Callanecc, we need to be clear on the fact that I did not accuse anyone of libel, and I would appreciate it if you would strike your allegation. My mention of the term came after the following comments by a tenured editor with 10 years invested, and is ranked #96 on the Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_article_count, March 12, 2015, March 13, 2015. My post followed a few days later: March 15, 2015.
  2. I also asked you to strike your allegation that I was casting aspersions when you hatted my post to Dreadstar re: my decision to not initiate an AN against him for his wrongful accusations of OR and SYNTH on Griffin Talk. It appears you took his side when you made the decision to "not delve into that". No reason to now: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Arbitration_motion:_Dreadstar_desysopped
  3. You said I was casting aspersions but you didn't identify what statement you felt was problematic. However, you quickly wrote-off Guy's words as "could be picked better" and that "what he says is supported by sources and consensus." While I've actually grown accustomed to Guy's remarks, I just want to make sure you don't take them seriously since you believe what he says is supported by sources and consensus. He said, "Atsme, you flatly refuse to accept the consensus that the laetrile scam promoted in Griffin's book World Without Cancer is quackery," [13]? Of course there are no diffs to support his statement, but I can certainly provide a diff with a quote from the actual passage I wrote (and was quickly reverted) that negates his claim: In the 1970s, Griffin authored World Without Cancer (1974), a book he wrote after the "persistent hammering away on the significance of vitamin therapy" by his friend John A. Richardson, a physician from San Francisco, CA. The book is about the drug Laetrile, a chemically modified form of amygdalin (Vitamin B17) which was once used in combination with other alternative therapies in the treatment of cancer but subsequently banned in the US as it is scientifically unsupported and not approved by the FDA. Griffin includes a disclaimer in his book that states "This story is not approved by orthodox medicine. The FDA, the AMA, and The American Cancer Society have labeled it fraud and quackery." February 9, 2015
  4. With the most recent changes to the article, I did suggest using updated terminology to coincide with what ACS and NIH have indicated. As other editors have pointed out, the term quackery is potentially libelous depending on how it is used. Do you trust Guy or any other editor to make such a determination for WP, or do you think it's best to follow policy which states the following on BLP TPs: Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. The way I originally used the terminology was cited with an inline text attribution from Griffin's own book which was in complete compliance with policy. That isn't the case for the contentious material in the lead now, some of which is cited to questionable and outdated sources, such as Media Matters, and sources over 30+ years old, not to mention those passages that are not supported by the sources cited, or are poorly sourced. But then, you believe what Guy says is supported by sources and consensus, and that I am accusing people of libel. I do hope you will take some time to reevaluate your position. AtsmeConsult 06:57, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


Fancy lifting it? Darkness Shines (talk) 18:03, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Welcome back! I'd rather wait (I'd suggest 3 months) for a while to see how it goes now you're back, which is the norm for people under a sanction who 'return' from a break (whether an voluntary break or not). Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 00:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
You've still got the exemption for Female infanticide in India if you want to keep working that. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 05:20, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I wanted to know if DS is still allowed to work on SPIs concerning the socking on those subjects that falls under WP:ARBIPA. Thanks. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 03:42, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes he is, both exemptions still stand. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 05:20, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Response at AE[edit]

Please take note of my response here to this: Thank you. --AmritasyaPutraT 02:42, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


Are you free for analyzing the behavioral evidence of relatively small accounts. Asking because the SPI been mishandled twice and checkuser shown them to be unrelated. Thanks. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 18:43, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I might have time. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 01:22, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
User:OccultZone/sandbox, case link. The two major accounts had no check though they pass WP:DUCK test. Note that the editor in question had affirmed to have read WP:SOCK#LEGIT in his own words[14] when he was blocked back in 2009 for block evasion, and he has been abusing these accounts since 2010. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 01:59, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Or, the accounts could be unrelated. Liz Read! Talk! 02:23, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Sorry to butt in. But its only fair that you know of the context of the past SPI and conclusion and ongoing ANI here. And the fact that OccultZone filed the 2nd SPI after getting blocked, accusing me of socking those accounts that got him blocked. Zhanzhao (talk) 03:06, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
He already claims one of the sock(DanS76) to be his brother, so how it is unrelated? We don't take the words of suspected socks and misrepresent the policy that he had himself reviewed. I got to know that he retired DanS76 for avoiding suspicion, soon he used other socks for same discussions and edit warring. All of these suspects(4 accounts and 1 IP) have very a low edit count, about 300 edits. He believes that a malformed block led me to file another SPI and continues to bludgeon every single SPI, ANI by claiming that a showing photo of 2 people with each other(of just anyone) is exemption from socking. The reason was no different for creating the first SPI, it was to avoid his disruption. If he is not a sock he should stop caring! But he cares to bludgeon because he is a sock who has abused these accounts since 2010, not only during content dispute, page move, deletion discussions, but also for conduct discussions that eventually led indef block of other editor. I am also amazed that I have to admin shop or ask other admin to review a case of potential long term abuse. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 03:21, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
You make a lot of accusations, OccultZone. But I think it's better to rely on the findings of the SPI than your suspicions. If your suspicions are well-founded, an investigation should be able to find proof to support them. Otherwise, I suggest you should follow your own advice and "stop caring". Liz Read! Talk! 11:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • IMO, this has long crossed the treshold into harassment territory by OccultZone. Both me and DoRD have opined that sockpuppetry does not appear to be a problem and OccultZone obstinately refuses to accept that point and basically accuses us of being wild incompetents. Zhanzhao, despite being under no obligation to do so, has provided proof (privately) of his identity as well as his brother's. OccultZone, just fucking drop it and move on. Your instinct seems to have been wrong, which happens to the best of us. But this pissing contest has gone on for far too long. The AN/I thread is 99% back-and-forth comparing of barely circumstancial evidence. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  03:29, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I will drop if you show that presenting a proof for having a brother in real life gives you exemption from sock puppetry and abuse multiple accounts in 100% same namespaces. Which policy or even an essay supports it? It is not circumstantial evidence because these are relatively small accounts sharing more similarities than we do with each other. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 03:31, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • You don't sound like there is anything I would say that would convince you, so I'll spare us both the waste of time and words. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  03:36, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
 :::::: Thanks, Salvidrim!. I didn't expect to see you here (was expecting you to weigh in at ANI) but really appreciate it.
I just want to point out that regarding OccultZone's point about "these are relatively small accounts sharing more similarities than we do with each other.", I already pointed out to OZ that even he made the same similar edits he identified as evidence:

Sorry to disturb you on your page, Callanecc. Zhanzhao (talk) 03:57, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Talking of 'talk', Zhanzhao has failed to find anyone else on earth who believes in some kind of full form of "TALK".[25][26][27][28]
In above diffs, Zhanzhao shows a comment by Lugnuts and claims that I am one of those who capitalize 't' of talk because Zhanzhao frequently did that his socks.[29][30][31][32]
I had not even written "talk" anywhere in my only comment, "@Lugnuts: No, it was with AWB." Neither Lugnuts used that word. Same with other diff where Zhanzhao claims that I have made specific identification "by IP", though I haven't written that. Zhanzhao came to misrepresent automatic summary of the titles as mine, that were originally created by other editors.
Such desperate attempts to misrepresent diffs and attempts to compare hundreds of other editors with his socks further proves that he is socking. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 05:08, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • You two need to STOP. Everything either of you could say has been said (at the SPI, at AN/I, then here). Neither of you has shown any ability to disengage or convince the other; your incessant quarrelling doesn't serve anyone's best interest. You are now at a point where y'all need to take a step back and shut up and let other uninvolved admins determine the best course of action (and abide by that decision). ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  05:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I concede the points about the "by IP" and "Talk". I didn't realise it was a copied subject header that appearedin the summery. The point about Talk being common and about "formatting" is still valid though, as are the rest of my points which I already made. I'm sorry I have intruded. Zhanzhao (talk) 05:37, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Having had a look at the evidence in OZ's sandbox I'm not convinced that they are related. A lot of what is presented is circumstantial (and you could probably link the accounts with fewer edits to any number of established users) and in the absence of confirming checkuser results (note I haven't checked myself) I don't think we can call these DUCKs. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 06:11, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • One moves page,[33], gets reverted[34], then other makes same page move.[35]
  • Who would page move war and edit war at the same time?[36][37] Or sign after 58 days[38] for evading 3rr[39][40]
What can be more obvious? Another comparison would include [41] [42][43][44], only the username has been changed, not the POV or even edit summary. How these examples are not passing duck test especially when accounts have got slightly more than 200 of edits? DanS76 and Zhanzhao 'were' never checked. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 06:39, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
The users freely admit to editing from the same location. There is nothing more CU can say when the user already admits the results will be between "likely" and "confirmed". You have been told by three admins, including SPI Clerk trainee (myself), and two CUs (DoRD and Callanecc) that you are wrong or at the very least that there is not enough evidence to take action... and yet you refuse to accept that and continue arguing. What will it take for you to stop? A direct message from God almighty written in burning letters across the sky? ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  19:17, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I will answer the above queries later, for now I would tell Salvidrim to save those 21 words "What will it.... across the sky?", for Zhanzhao, after he will be indeffed. I have already updated my sandbox with more evidence of blatant socking. For now I would request Callanecc to provide full protection to Rape in India. Callanecc would you? There is massive sock puppetry, recent edit[45] is not made by a new editor, it is made by an editor who had made 2 edits in 2007 and now he has made another 9 edits for achieving the autoconfirmed right.[46] His edit is potentially favored by Zhanzhao and was recently made by an IP.[47] Thank you. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 07:23, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @Salvidrim!: It is the first time I've ever seen an "SPI Clerk trainee" taking the words of a previously blocked sock master, who had been socking since before and after his block. It was a mistake that you did, and that's why we are having these bad consequences. How you would define these edits as[48][49][50][51]? I had to ask for rev-del before I would show them here. Yes that IP was Zhanzhao per his own admission.[52][53] Why I have to use this UTP? Because you never replied on your talk page re: your actions.
Salvidrim did you even cared to look at the talk page of the sock? Check this comment. Real talk, no brother in the world would come after 40 days(and sometimes more) to help his brother evade 3rr and participate in 100% same namespaces.
Query to Callanecc: We know that new evidence can always overturn any former decision. In the light of more evidence(comparison:- [54]) where I have provided the numerous evasions of 3rr, participation on ban discussions, etc. that I hadn't provided before you had read, as well as this diff where he is warning about meatpuppetry to others. Even if his unbelievable notion that his brother helped him with other account since 2010 with matters has to be taken, it was still an intentional abuse of WP:ILLEGIT. May I know what you think? OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 02:52, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • A review of my actions is always welcome. I am open to being overridden by any CU/Clerk if I did err, but DoRD did not think so when I closed the case involving DanS76. ☺ · Salvidrim! ·  02:55, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • DoRD had no involvement with DanS76, no one checked DanS76. DoRD just blocked one of these suspected sock yesterday[55] and he share too much similarities with Zhanzhao, not only he has the same POV, but same style of writing, edit summaries, edits, timings, etc. Just say that this sock had made an accidental mistake when he forgot to change the IP/wifi/device when he was socking with this account even for a single edit. Do you to know more about the technical evidence? Just read this latest comment by Risker, mind "how common". Since you are open to being overridden, I guess that Callanecc should run a CU on DanS76 and Zhanzhao, just for more confirmation, we have enough evidences to confirm that a single person was hopping accounts. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 03:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
  • There's not much point running a checkuser as they've already admitted that they use the same computer. It looks to me (based on the diffs in your sandbox) that in 2010/2011 there looks to have been text book meatpuppetry (assuming they are different people) going on, but the most recent diffs in the sandbox for these two breaking policy look to be mid 2014 was is too old to consider sanctions. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 10:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
The reverts that I have made on them are usually counted as edit warring by one or two people. I am not getting that which policy suggest that sock puppetry can be blocked only if it has been temporary? OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 11:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Absent a block which is being evaded it was edit warring, there is no exemption for sockpuppets of not blocked or banned users. What do you mean? I'm saying blocking now would not be preventative and I don't see why 9ish months after the last time there was a problem the other user should be blocked from making their own edits if they wish. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 11:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Since we haven't run a CU, how we can be aware of any other socks that he has used? We can only make decision on these. The way he was abusing socks before he made an unconfirmed notion that he has a brother, it could've lead any other being blocked, he was edit warring with multiple editors that day. Why he admitted only when he was caught? Since he had well admitted per this newly discovered diff that he is aware of meat puppetry, we can ditch the previous notion that he wasn't. The new socks are clearly his, but now he has learned not to use same IP, device, and wifi. It is easier to consider that these socks are making the edits that Zhanzhao originally wanted to. Zhanzhao had expressed his intention, "I'll still add a one liner about many of the rape being unreported though."[56] These edits[57][58][59][60] exactly fulfills that criteria, and then having similarities, such as same edit summaries, having same style of making wikilink of URLs([[<small><small>]]), never disagreeing with each other, it is just obvious. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 11:09, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Also see the messages on User talk:Ponyo# where multiple edits have shown concerns over this IP extension, 49.244, it is used by multiple sock masters. Why one of the account, "Bargolus" signed in after 8 years,[61] just to restore the preferred version of Zhanzhao?[62] Same way DanS76 had signed in after 58 days just for restoring the preferred version of Zhanzhao? This account had self admitted to be 49.244.[63] and then edited his comment with[64] There is a great likely hood of sock puppetry on going and since Zhanzhao has learned how to fool CU results, a process that is being already extensively currently discussed on an RfC of this policy page. It seems to me like sock master is using wide set of IP addresses for that "one liner" that Zhanzhao wants on the lead of the article. So that he cannot be caught. There is no hurry, you can also review in a few hours. OccultZone (TalkContributionsLog) 11:29, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Voting on functionary candidates[edit]

This is occurring at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions. Courcelles (talk) 19:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Outrageous accusations[edit]

Please strike your outrageous accusations and personal attacks against me at WP:AE. I will not be smeared in this manner. You've turned an AE request about mass page moves and about ignoring consensus into a page about a non-existent personal dispute, and proposed measures that solve problems that do not exist. This is disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. If you cannot address the evidence raised, I suggest that you are not fit to be commenting on this AE request, and therefore ask for a recusal on your part. RGloucester 06:43, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I didn't make any personal attacks against you, Dicklyon presented the accusation and evidence and, as I said, there does seems to be the appearance of you following him around. And I agree that the short term, limited IBAN I quickly thought of won't solve the underlying problem; but, from my reading of the discretionary sanctions they can't be used to take the action (somewhat like Blueboar suggested) needed. What we can do is prevent the angst between the two of you, however my opinion is that this would be better taken to AN where the more broad restrictions could be applied. Having said that other admins may read the scope of the discretionary sanctions differently. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 10:51, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Would it be acceptable to pursue Arca clarification of the scope of the sanctions? To me, it seems like this is obviously in scope. RGloucester 15:10, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and done it, as I don't like waiting in the mires of bureaucracy. Please consider this the appropriate notification. RGloucester 15:45, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  • On the other matter, there is no evidence. Do not repeat baseless allegations. No one shall turn a request about mass page moves against consensus into such a sideshow. RGloucester 16:46, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Tireless Contributor Barnstar Hires.gif The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
For taking on even more Wikipedia responsibilities! I don't know how you juggle it all! Liz Read! Talk! 22:44, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Liz. :) There's a reason I want new clerks! Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 10:16, 31 March 2015 (UTC)