User talk:Doug butler

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Hello, Doug butler! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking Button sig.png or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! FlowerpotmaN·{| width="100%" style="background-color:#F5FFFA;"
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February 2008[edit]

Information.svg Welcome, and thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test on the page Samuel Beckett worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment further, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Please do not sign the article mainspaces; signatures are only for talk pages. EnviroboyTalkCs 05:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

User talk archives[edit]

BTW how does one create a User talk archive? Doug butler (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
There are lots of ways it can be done, some of them automatic, but I've had no success with the automatic ones, (and anyway, being the control freak that I am, I actually prefer to have control over what's happening.)
So I do it manually. And there are several ways you can do that, too.
Probably/possibly the easiest/best way to do it, (certainly a better way to do it than what I do, but I only discovered this method in the last year - had I discovered it earlier, I would probably use it), is the two step process:
1) Use "move page" to rename your talk page (e.g. move "User talk:Doug butler" to "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1")
2) "User talk:Doug butler" will then become a redirect to "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1". Edit "User talk:Doug butler" - remove the redirect and replace it with the stuff (copied from "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1") that you like having on the top of your talk page.
Then, next time you want to archive, move "User talk:Doug butler" to "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 2"
Hope that helps. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. That seems to have worked. Doug butler (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Good. But did it do what you wanted? Pdfpdf (talk) 15:39, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure what I wanted, except a smaller page. I like the first two posts - a welcome from FLOWERPOTMAN (lovely guy) and the firm but courteous trashing of my first edit - but the rest is (apart from a few nice tips like <nowiki>) just a nice souvenir. Doug butler (talk) 15:57, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

User talk:Doug butler/archive1 User talk:Doug butler/archive 2

My new policy[edit]

My new policy is that I am not adding talk pages to your new articles, and I am not doing your article reviews unless they have proper WikiProject template talk pages already on them. I have already asked one Aussie who does articles like yours to help, and I will seek more. Until I can do more than 100 edits a day, I will restrict my efforts to those I do well. --DThomsen8 (talk) 16:09, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Point taken. Thank you for your generous assistance, and best wishes for your continued recovery. Doug butler (talk) 16:24, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I did not add South Australia in every instance, but of course there are others we had no role in missing things, too. Seek someone to help with talk pages. I will, too.--DThomsen8 (talk) 21:23, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I've been looking at talk page templates on other pages. Pretty daunting but I guess a start is better than doing nothing and one can only learn by doing. Doug butler (talk) 21:30, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Good work on Riley talk page, Doug. I did the review.--DThomsen8 (talk) 17:49, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Wilson and Boothby[edit]

Hi there. Can you provide an alternative source for this? Psephos says that a Keith Charles Wilson was the candidate in 1934, and the ADB says that Keith Cameron Wilson failed to gain preselection in 1934. Psephos has been wrong before, but the source you've provided doesn't actually preclude it being right, and the advertisement almost but doesn't quite match Keith Cameron Wilson's list of accomplishments. Frickeg (talk) 19:42, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

And ADB ain't infallible neither. :) Have provided a second ref on the Keith Wilson (politician) page, which though less informative, confirms the second LCL candidate for Boothby was Keith CAMERON Wilson. Trove turns up half-a-dozen similar, and nothing for Keith Charles. I think we can lock this one in. Doug butler (talk) 21:12, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Great work. Might be worth shooting the ADB an email about this too. Frickeg (talk) 23:10, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

List of historic houses in South Australia[edit]

My but you've been busy there! I can see myself spending the next 5 years on that page, and NEVER getting back to J150W ... Pdfpdf (talk) 11:30, 30 March 2013 (UTC)


FYI. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:16, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Also FYI. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:22, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
more ... Pdfpdf (talk) 11:11, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

The Mouldens[edit]

Here's an interesting pair for you. (Interesting trio actually.)

Sir Beaumont Arnold Moulden (1849-1926), lawyer and politician, was born on 19 October 1849 at Southwark, London, son of Joseph Eldin Moulden, solicitor, and his wife Margaret Perkins, née Hinton. Migrating to South Australia with his parents next year, Moulden was educated at J. L. Young's Adelaide Educational Institution.

Sir Frank Beaumont Moulden (1876-1932), solicitor and mayor, was his son. Born on 25 June 1876 at Norwood, Adelaide. Educated at the Collegiate School of Saint Peter and the University of Adelaide, he was articled to his father, admitted to the Bar in 1897 and joined the family firm in 1900.

I came across them because: On 10 April 1918 (Frank Beaumont Moulden) married a (very wealthy, young, pretty and charming) widow, Deborah, Lady Hackett, whom he had met while skiing at Mount Kosciusko. ... As mayor, encouraged by his wife, particularly during the Prince of Wales's visit, he began a period of 'unique hospitality which had never been … imagined in South Australia'. Young, pretty and charming, Deborah Moulden welcomed her new social opportunities; 'Bay' was quiet and retiring.

(The article is rather confusingly written - it's not always easy to tell which one she's referring to in the current sentence you're reading ... ) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk)

Weird. Have you told ADB? Don't bother replying as I'll be doing the grandfather bit all this month and out of touch for much it. Doug butler (talk) 21:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
I'll be doing the grandfather bit all this month - Enjoy! Pdfpdf (talk) 15:51, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Does this mean that "you're back", or just that you're keeping an eye on things?

If/when you're back, I have a number of questions / comments I'd like to read your reactions to. (OK, you should never use a preposition to end a sentence with.)
If/when you're back, I have a number of questions / comments for which I'm seeking your reactions / comments / opinions / etc.
Fire away (rewrite THAT according to the rule) Doug butler (talk) 04:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Ah! The joys of ageing!! (Can't remember! It was something to do with historic houses.) Pdfpdf (talk) 12:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
BTW: How's the rugrats event progressing? (To tell the truth, I'm envious. My eldest is getting married in December, but I don't see rugrats in the 5-year-plan ... )
Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Spent a week at #2 (Darwin) son's new acquisition in Bathurst and hors de contact. Just arrived at #1 son's place in Canberra and used his connection to check email, bank residue and Watchlist. Two granddaughters (one each side) both nearly 6yo and two grandsons ditto nearly 3yo. Fascinating exhausting and glad their parents have the sense not to live within easy driving distance. Cheers Doug butler (talk) 22:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Mmmmm. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind! Pdfpdf (talk) 12:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

George Brookman[edit]

While I have you on the line, I was (and still would be) having a problem tracking down which house in Edwin Tce was the Brookman residence. #9 is named "Ivanhoe" (same name as his goldmine), but there exists a real estate advertisment (from Bernard Booth) saying #3. Any ideas? Pdfpdf (talk) 12:39, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

George_Brookman#Family of George Brookman

  • Their home was either "Craigmellon" at 3 Edwin Terrace, Gilberton, or "Ivanhoe" at 9 Edwin Terrace.[16][17]
  • [16] Historic Landmark Property, 3 Edwin Terrace, Gilberton, (What a great domain name!)
  • [17] Heritage Plan Amendment Reports, Walkerville News, April–June 2007, The Corporation of the Town of Walkerville, pg.3

As usual, Trove comes up trumps:

So, like many people, Mr Booth doesn't let the facts get in the way of a good story ... Pdfpdf (talk) 14:38, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
BTW: The ambiguity of "S&M Directory" is far more interesting than calling it the "Sands & McDougall Directory" - (or "Sands and McDougall").
Gotta say I'm surprised they are red links, especially given: G. P. Walsh (1976) 'Sands, John (1818–1873)', Australian Dictionary of Biography, Volume 6, (MUP), and the fact that at least 17 pages in WP include one of those phrases.
Also, I'm disappointed that ADB doesn't include a bio of Dugald McDougall - What a wonderful name! Pdfpdf (talk) 15:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Percy Hordern[edit]

Thanks for your corrections, additions and improvements to this bio. Castlemate (talk) 01:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hordern family[edit]

Doug, I'm pleased you are adding to this article but be careful because it says: "in developing Retail families of Australia, please be aware that Wikipedia articles are not Genealogical entries and may be deleted on that ground". I think you should be careful to only list people of general notability. Castlemate (talk) 07:55, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Castlemate. Back when this article was part of Anthony Hordern & Sons (thanks for making it a separate article - as I found more and more interesting members of the family I figured it should be a separate article and you did it for me. In deference to "Wikipedia is not a genealogy site" I had had headlined the section This list is intended to cover members of even minor significance but is not exhaustive and have omitted many obviously non-notables; most of those listed were the subject of an obit in serious newspapers or prominent in social pages. Doug butler (talk) 08:29, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all your work on the Bowman Brothers article[edit]

I am a very distant cousin of the Bowman Brothers, and a few years ago I helped someone interested in Bowman genealogy to research them. We came across Elizabeth Warburton's book The Bowmans of Martindale Hall, which is quite comprehensive and which I have added as further reading. Even with its help, I don't think we got as far as you did, and without it (I notice you didn't cite it anywhere) your research is truly doubt some genealogists will think it "a normal, professional job", but I am not a genealogist, and not all of them are "professional" anyway!

I have added what little I could remember or rediscover in the few areas we had gone further than you, and left some long notes on the talk page with information I was not so confident of, and also extending the work slightly into the Bowmans of Askham, Cumbria (previously in Westmorland]]. Unfortunately, my notes are mostly with the person I was helping, and she has now aged considerably, and may not be prepared to refer to them or pass them back to me. However, if there is any specific issue you would like to check, I will contact her to see. I will e-mail you my e-mail address in case of anything which would "out" me or the person I was helping. Enginear (talk) 13:13, 7 May 2013 (UTC)


I've replied. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:39, 11 May 2013 (UTC)


Apparently, your wish is my command. Pdfpdf (talk) 16:05, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Rymill brothers - observations / questions[edit]

  • arriving at Port Adelaide in the Caucasian on 1 October 1855.
  • Henry married Lucy Lockett Baker (19 October 1839 – 19 October 1885) on 10 July 1861.
  • In 1862 he decided to go into business ... took his brother ... into partnership.
  • Henry was working as a lawyer's clerk in London when persuaded by brother-in-law J. B. Graham
  • So Henry and Frank had at least one sister.

Is there any indication of how many children Robert Rymill and Louisa (née Sheppard) had? Pdfpdf (talk) 10:40, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

  • Frank's son-in-law's father was Richard Chaffey Baker (22 June 1842 – 18 March 1911)
  • Henry married Lucy Lockett Baker (19 October 1839 – 19 October 1885) on 10 July 1861.
  • Henry's father-in-law: A. J. Baker

Any idea if they were related? Pdfpdf (talk) 10:40, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

probably not. John Baker came from Somerset; Lucy Lockett and her father Arthur John were of Devonshire stock. Curiouser is the link between Ms. Baker and Henry Ayers' granddaughter Lucy Lockett Ayers (and the folk tune which became Yankee Doodle!) Doug butler (talk) 15:17, 1 June 2013 (UTC) As far as I can work out:
  • Lawrence Potts (ca.1760–1845) married (1) Elizabeth ??? (died ca.1818)
  • Anne Potts (1812 – ) married Henry Ayers
  • Frank Potts (winemaker) (1815–1890)
  • Lawrence Potts (ca.1760–1845) married (2) Elizabeth Lockett (née ????) in 1820 and adopted her two children:
  • Elizabeth Lockett (1796–1874) married John Churcher ()
  • Margaretta Lockett (1810–1890) married Arthur John Baker (1814–1900)

If this is all kosher, why would Anne saddle her daughter with the name Lockett? Unless of course Lawrence Potts' first wife was born Lockett! Doug butler (talk) 02:53, 4 June 2013 (UTC) (Also, you quote a lot of information, but most of it is uncited. Pdfpdf (talk) 10:40, 1 June 2013 (UTC))

P.S. Category:Rymill family

Y'know, given your recent edit(s) about others involved in the partnership, I wonder about renaming (move-ing) the article to the company/partnership name? (Or something similar.) (And reorganising the contents.)
What do you think? Pdfpdf (talk) 15:37, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Only chanced on that threesome last night and have gone no further. Probably only of parenthetical interest, but if not maybe a separate article and hatnote later. Doug butler (talk) 00:14, 4 June 2013 (UTC) On third thoughts, almost no Trove hits for Rymill brothers yield Henry and Frank, it's all the hydroplane partnership. So maybe this page should be called H & F Rymill. Whichever way, I do think the two families should be together as there's so much interaction and maybe one day someone will produce an article on the speedboat stuff. Your thoughts? Doug butler (talk) 02:03, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Noticed the "Your thoughts?". Noticed I hadn't replied. Replied. Lost communications (and reply). Swore profusely.
Much less jovial response:
  • I don't like "Rymill Brothers" / don't think "Rymill Brothers" is a good name for the page.
  • I DO think that "H & F Rymill", (or similar) is a good / better name for the page.
  • I agree that Whichever way, I do think the two families should be together as there's so much interaction and maybe one day someone will produce an article on the speedboat stuff.
Pdfpdf (talk) 10:16, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Murray-Darling steamboats[edit]

Hi pdf! Before I put too much work into it, would you mind looking at User:Doug butler/Murray-Darling steamboats? Doug butler (talk) 00:02, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Don't mind at all.
I'm not sure what sort of feedback you want, or what you want feedback on, so I'll just do a dump of my reactions, and will subsequently expand any particular comments that you want me to clarify.
So I toddled on, got distracted, indulged myself, and finally completed my response.
When I hit "save" - surprise, surprise - we had an edit conflict.
So I saved it in User:Doug butler/Murray-Darling steamboats2
Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 09:41, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Thoughtful, helpful and useful. I don't know how you do it. Thanks again. Doug butler (talk) 11:25, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
a) Flattery will probably get you exactly what you want.
b) I don't know how you do it. - Well, not having a life, and being a major procrastinator, are both significant contributors.
c) Conversely, looking at your user page for the first time in several months, I don't know how you do that. Never-the-less:
Thank you. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:07, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Interesting. I made almost exactly the same change at almost the same time, and got an edit conflict. Should we be concerned? (c.f.: "We have to stop meeting like this".) Pdfpdf (talk) 13:48, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Have just given up waiting for Opeth to play one of their own pieces on RRRage so off to bed. Doug butler (talk) 15:02, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Would it be useful / helpful if I sorted the page so that the two lists are merged? Pdfpdf (talk) 13:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks but no thanks. I could do it in Word, but the second list is suspect in several respects.

(Unrelated) Y'know, you've got yourself an elephant there. How do you eat an elephant? In small pieces. Lots of them. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Goodness gracious! And I thought your AEI page was a big project. I was wrong - it's not an elephant, it's a mammoth. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for July 8[edit]

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Benjamin Herschel Babbage[edit]

(FYI.) Have you seen this? Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:45, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Hence the Castle shopping centre. I had no idea; thanks for that. What a strange and wonderful history we have here! Doug butler (talk) 03:46, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
(To quote Basil Brush: Boom boom!) Yes indeed! (Neither did I.) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:45, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
I take back the shopping centre bit. Closer to St Marys/Mitcham. Doug butler (talk) 17:26, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Refugee Advocacy Service of South Australia[edit]

Please consider doing copy editing and reference improvements on Refugee Advocacy Service of South Australia. You would be much better than I would, even though I am a member of the Guild of Copyeditors. Can you help?--DThomsen8 (talk) 13:54, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I've made a few fixes, though I'm not sure it's what's needed; out of my comfort zone somewhat. BTW How are you these days? Doug butler (talk) 15:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
Of course you are in your comfort zone about South Australia, and somewhat out of your comfort zone doing copyediting. You have done some good fixes, and I give you credit for that. I expected to bring you to something new for yourself, and you have done it well.
My therapy ended in June, and I can do almost everything I was doing before, except driving. Driving legally is the project, bureaucrats are the problem, but I will overcome that by November. Thank you for asking. --DThomsen8 (talk) 17:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Missed the talk page[edit]

Would you like User talk:Doug butler/M. E. Rees George deleted along with the other redirect? Monty845 00:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Monty845, thank you. Does it help if I put a request for deletion on talks pages? I haven't bothered before and it seemed to be done automatically by one of you great guys. Doug butler (talk) 01:53, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I missed your reply until now. Anyway, its deleted. Its not very common for user space pages to also have associated talk pages, so its sort of an ambiguous situation. Tagging it as well will make sure it gets deleted, but I honestly don't know how necessary it is when it comes to the practices other admins. Monty845 04:17, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Standard (Frankston)[edit]

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. This is a notice to inform you that a tag has been placed on Standard (Frankston) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, images, a rephrasing of the title, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. Dawynn (talk) 11:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Prior to my nomination for deletion, the only material in the article was two talk page wikiproject templates. There was no article text at all. Beyond indicating that the article was related to Australia and Journalism, there was nothing to determine what the article was about. Dawynn (talk) 11:02, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Clearly I did something wrong. The page I created is still in userspace User:Doug butler/Standard (Frankston). If you could please clear the title I'll have another attempt at moving it. Doug butler (talk) 11:56, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Yeah -- that page looks much better. I moved it to an article page and added in a couple talk page templates. Feel free to edit Standard (Frankston). Dawynn (talk) 16:30, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Doug butler (talk) 21:36, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Another interesting person ...[edit]

T.G. Waterhouse Pdfpdf (talk) 19:36, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

An Adelaide connection to W. O. Bentley! I'm impressed!! Doug butler (talk) 22:39, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
He married Eliza Faulding ( died 2 February 1907), a sister of Francis Hardey Faulding at Trinity Church, Adelaide on 25 August 1852. - Speechless! Pdfpdf (talk) 12:21, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Just stumbled across Adelaide Steamship ref; maybe worth a glance. Doug butler (talk) 15:38, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

List of historic houses in South Australia[edit]

I have left the tag {{linkrot|date=September 2013}} on the article List of historic houses in South Australia so you can see the results of running the Reflinks tool. Remove the tag after reading. The tool can do a lot of cleaning up on references. Unfortunately, it does nothing for External links. --DThomsen8 (talk) 15:31, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


As one of a highly select international group, you are hereby invited to join me in celebrating my 666! (Let the games begin!) Pdfpdf (talk) 11:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll drink to that! Doug butler (talk) 01:19, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The Goode family[edit]

You have several articles on the Goode family. They are quite interesting. I was looking at Thomas Goode (pastoralist) and thinking that you need to create separate pages for the children or something - it makes the page confusing having multiple people on the one page. Evelyn Goode got an OBE so is probably notable in her own right. Clarence has his own page. But as a result you hardly notice the link for his page. Similarly on the page about H.A and W Goode - what happens to the store in the end? - the article simply stops talking about it. And again there are multiple people on the one page - it's a little confusing. Antiqueight confer 23:17, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your observations. The motivation behind those four pages was to sort out (in my mind for a starter) the relationships between the different families with confusingly similar names and how they fitted into the merchant class of Adelaide of that period. A bare handful of those characters would make for interesting articles in their own right (feel free!). The same could be said for the Burfords, the Bickfords, the Bowmans, the Cudmores, the Clarks ... they went to the same schools, they married each other, they employed each others' kids, they went bail, provided alibis and attended each others' funerals. Right now I'm looking at the riverboats of the Murray and again those same names keep cropping up (as well as the Johnstons and Randells). As a very wise Wikipedian once said — Adelaide's a very small place. Doug butler (talk) 04:09, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwen Barringer[edit]

I have reviewed Gwen Barringer, and done some work on it, including running the Reflinks tool on the references. Take a look at the history. Perhaps you might want to learn how to do the Reflinks from the tag.--DThomsen8 (talk) 14:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Good work on Jean Danysz (biologist), but I left two tags on it.--DThomsen8 (talk) 15:33, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Season's Greetings[edit]

Merry Xmas!

Best wishes for a great Christmas, and for a happy, healthy and prosperous 2014! Pdfpdf (talk) 13:06, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


It was decided the meeting should be written up, and that this should be a collaborative exercise. I have "started the ball rolling" at Wikipedia:Meetup/Adelaide/Meetup 8#Meeting summary Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:28, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Comments on User:Doug butler/Murray-Darling steamboats[edit]

FWTW (For what they're worth ... ) i.e. These are simply comments, not definitive statements or opinions or advice or even suggestions. And some are simply "reactions", and as such, they in particular are worthy of being ignored.


Table-of-contents - third section:

  • Without a very good reason, 200+ would seems (to me) to be FAR too many subentries - i.e. suggest you reduce the number of subsections. (There are many ways to do this. Note, many.)
  • On-the-other-hand, the way you have done it allows you to link to the section heading, and if this is a useful thing to do, then this is "a very good reason" - example: User:Doug butler/Murray-Darling steamboats#Berger could be set up as a redirect - User:Doug butler/Daniel Berger1

If this is not something you think useful, then here are but two suggestions on how you might change it: (Note, however, it depends what tradeoff you want to achieve.)

Suggestion 1

Instead of:


section aaa


section bbb



You could use:


section aaa


section bbb



Suggestion 2

If you want to retain sub-section headings, but just have 26 subsections:

(In which case User:Doug butler/Daniel Berger2, might be a compromise?)



abc1 rhubarb


abc2 rhubarb










Section 1 - Riverboats[edit]

(There's a hell-of-a-lot-of-data/information there!!)
Hmmmmmmm. I'll get back to you. Quite simply, there's more useful information than it is obvious how to fit onto a page. What you've done is better than anything else that comes to mind.
As I said: I'll get back to you. (And I'll probably say: I can't think of a better way to present it ... )

Section 2 - Notes - and the remaining sections[edit]

Looks good to me.

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 16:59, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts, relevant, considered and welcome as usual. Yes, I chose to do it that way for ease of development, and was going to solicit your advice when I felt ready to expose the page to the open air. I was thinking along these lines: the River Identities would be assembled on a second Wikitable. The 10% or 20% about whom there's something to say would appear in the table but also have their own subheadings exactly as at present, and/or to main articles where such exist.Doug butler (talk) 22:40, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Robert Kay (librarian)[edit]

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

A tag has been placed on Robert Kay (librarian) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. AmaryllisGardener talk 01:14, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

My error: moved Talk page in stead of Article to Article space and received Speedy Deletion notice before I could correct it. Doug butler (talk) 03:09, 3 May 2014 (UTC)


Made a start on Murray Darling People; enough to get an idea on how it might look. Doug butler (talk) 14:53, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Federick Isaac Caterer[edit]

Oh, I didn't see you created it - when you create something, and nobody else edits it, it's eligible for speedy deletion under criterion {{db-g7}} . But I'd urge you to consider leaving it - if you're the first person to make a typo, you're not going to be the last (and there's nothing to be embarressed about when making tpyos, it happens to us all, eh? ;) ) WilyD 16:09, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The embarrassment was not in the typo; it's in the fact I did it so long ago, and even had it on my userpage, but never picked it up until recently Doug butler (talk) 22:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Meeting 9?[edit]

Please read this. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 06:31, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Time flies like an arrow. Doug butler (talk) 06:41, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
... and fruit flies like a peach. Pdfpdf (talk) 06:47, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Technical Mentors - Unleashed Adelaide, 11-13 July 2014[edit]

Free this weekend? Please see Wikipedia:Meetup/Adelaide/Future meetings#Technical Mentors - Unleashed (GovHack Adelaide) for details. Alex Sims (talk) 11:40, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Notability discussion[edit]

There's a discussion happening about the notability of your two steamboat lists at WP:AWNB, and I'm not very impressed that the dude who brought it up didn't notify you about it here. The Drover's Wife (talk) 00:28, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Thankyou for your courtesy. A previous AfD discussion on a page I started (Friends Meeting House, Adelaide) happened on its talk page, which would seem to be the appropriate forum. I wouldn't know, I don't get involved in WPolitics. Doug butler (talk) 02:22, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Troubridge Island Lighthouse[edit]

Hi Doug, Thanks for the message posted on my talk page. I confirm that the Lighthouse on Troubridge Island is non-operational. It has been retained for heritage reasons, i.e. first pre-fab lighthouse in Australia, second lighthouse built in SA etc. It is owned by Department of Transport, Planning & Infrastructure (formerly Transport SA). The source for this information is the Management Plan for the Troubridge Island Conservation Park, and entries on the SA State Heritage Register for the lighthouse itself and the keepers cottages. I am working on an article about the lighthouse. Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 05:41, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi Doug, I noticed that you edited the Troubridge Island article earlier this afternoon. Can you please read my comments on Talk:Troubridge Island? Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 06:36, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Doug, I had a look at your edit. I am not entirely satisfied with it and will have a think about it. My reading of sources including charts leads me to the conclusion that Marion Reef is one of the features of the Troubridge Shoals rather than being an unique 'landform'. As mentioned, I doing a number of articles about this particular locality including the lighthouse and the wrecks; I must reveal also have a draft underway for an article about the shoals. When this is finished, I will a clearer understanding of the nature of the shoals and Marion Reef. Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 07:51, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi Doug, here is a link to the Thomas Lipson chart of the Shoals which I uploaded earlier this afternoon - Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 07:51, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Nice pic. Beats the Readers Digest Atlas of Australia! Can you add an "X marks the spot" for Troubridge Hill ? Doug butler (talk) 08:11, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I also think that it is very interesting and useful. No, Troubridge Hill is not on the image. I am thinking about tracing the map of the locality which would allow the inclusion of numerous places such as the 'Hill'. Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 22:32, 1 September 2014 (UTC).
Just picked up South Australia's Waters, an Atlas and Guide (Boating Industry Association of SA and Gov. of SA) 2005 ISBN 1 86254 680 0 (as new) for $3.50 at op shop. Not bad eh? Even has relevant maps on pp.189 and 192. Shows navigation lights on Marion Reef and Edithburg jetty but can't find Troubridge Hill; must be on later edition. Doug butler (talk) 23:02, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Good buy - I paid full price for it last decade. I don't particularly like it as the range of the coastal maps is limited, there are errors (i.e. wreck & reacreational dive sites) and the publication itself is not seaworthy. Troubridge Hill appears on page 184 (about 12.5 km W-SW of Sultana Point. Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 21:13, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Aha! Quite a distance away. I'd imagined it closer to the island. Cheers! Doug butler (talk) 21:35, 2 September 2014 (UTC) PS you missed a good, if small, meetup. Meredith was a fine guest. Are you on Bahudhara's email list? Doug butler (talk) 21:35, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Parliament of South Australia, Statistical Record of the Legislature 1836 - 2007[edit]

HI Doug, I just noticed your article about John Warren MLC. The following information may be of use to you as a citation for the John Warren article and possibly for any future articles about SA politicians. I recently discovered that Parliament of SA had published an online book called Statistical Record of the Legislature 1836 - 2007 (downloadable from Regards Cowdy001 (talk) 22:25, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Nice one, thanks. That goes straight to the toolbar! Doug butler (talk) 22:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


But was his uncle really at all a notable person? Most of the modern sources I see simply refer to "Vaiben Solomon" meaning the Premier/MP, in much the same way we now refer to Stanley Bruce rather than S. M. Bruce, as he was at the time. Clearly this is the Vaiben Solomon that history remembers. Having said all that, I freely admit that my familiarity with early SA politics is sketchy at best. How do the modern sources you've read stack up on the issue? Frickeg (talk) 00:56, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

As mentioned, contemporary references used full name, as does ADB. Vaiben Solomon, for whom VLS was named, was transported to Sydney with brother Emanuel (definitely notable) and crops up occasionally in his brother's land deals and establishment of Queen's Theatre, Adelaide. Hardly notable but worth a bit of trouble to avoid confusion. Doug butler (talk) 01:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Hmm. ADB didn't seem to have a particular preference for full names when I had a look around; the article on Batchelor used initials, the one on his dad (in the one instance) used Vaiben Louis. The federal parliament uses just Vaiben here, the SA parliament here, and Scotch College here. And if the other Vaiben is never getting an article, I really don't see why we need to be disambiguating VLS in all these articles based on the (very small) possibility that someone will be confusing him with his barely-known uncle. I have absolutely no problem with noting the uncle in the article (although, if there's no article, a hatnote is probably excessive), but surely that accomplishes the task of avoiding confusion all by itself? Plenty of people are named after their relatives, but we don't need to go around adding middle names to all the articles that refer to them.
Basically, the crux of my problem is this: if VLS was known as "Vaiben Louis Solomon", and continues to be known as such in the modern sources as well as the contemporary ones (and that's not the case from what I can tell), then the article should be at "Vaiben Louis Solomon" as well, and then the links would be fine. I just don't see the point in adding redirects when the direct name will take people to the same place and provide them with, essentially, the same information in a more concise form.
(As an aside, I've been thinking lately that if I could go back in time and change one fundamental thing about Wikipedia, it would be the way we do article titles. I wish we just had full, correct names for everything. Imagine all the huge, incredibly fraught, ultimately unimportant fights it would avoid! Sadly, I think the ship has well and truly sailed on that one, and we have to make do with what we have.) Frickeg (talk) 01:52, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
If all WP articles mentioning VLS used VS I'd agree with you, but most references to him use his full name and all I was doing was to regularize it. I would still have VS redirecting to VLS. Doug butler (talk) 02:36, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

James Jelley[edit]

Hi. I strongly object to redirecting this to a joint article on both. I realise it's only a stub, but he has inherent notability by himself as a politician and I do not see any special reason to have a joint article with his brother (who can have is own article if he's notable). Frickeg (talk) 02:13, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I understand your concerns, but check out the article - the two men had a great deal in common and I reckon it makes a good narrative - they were both Labor MLCs, almost consecutively. Doug butler (talk) 02:17, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Maybe (and I have had a look at the article), but they're still separate individuals and as far as I can see did not act especially in concert. I see no reason for a joint article. Frickeg (talk) 03:04, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough. It's only a few minutes' work to duplicate the page and bias the content of each to reflect the title. I'll do it now. Doug butler (talk) 03:12, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Great, thanks heaps. And I did like the brothers article, it was great work. Frickeg (talk) 07:12, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
No worries. I started David's article first without realizing James already had an entry. I could see advantages and disadvantages in both approaches, but figured on balance you were right. I'm now splitting up John Darling and Son which has similar issues. No shortage of challenges, but I might first have a Pale and watch QI. Doug butler (talk) 07:30, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

List of historic houses in South Australia‎[edit]

FYI, I actually got around to looking at Wall, Barbara (2008). "Mount Lofty Summit Road: A survey 1841-2008 (research paper)". 

Much more interesting than I expected: The research paper outlines the history of the built features along Mount Lofty Summit Road and nearby Blackburn Drive - the obelisk on the summit itself, the road to the summit, and its various properties. Of the ten houses, nine were gutted in the tragic Ash Wednesday bushfires of 16 February 1986. Many were rebuilt, but two, St Michael's House and Arthur's Seat (for a time known as Stawell School for Girls) were abandoned or demolished. The other houses are Carminow (formerly known as The Pinnacles), Eurilla, Mount Lofty House, The Glen, Green Gables, Shurdington, St Barberie and Wonnaminta. The Church of the Epiphany at Crafers, at the bottom of Summit Road, its rectory, and flora and fauna in the area are also discussed.

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:18, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

DEFAULTSORT and Mc[edit]

Hi. As per WP:MCSTJR, people named "McX" should be categorised at "McX" not "MacX". Frickeg (talk) 01:39, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I can only assume you haven't seen this ... I'm about to hit 3RR! Can you fix the ones I haven't got to when you see this? Frickeg (talk) 01:48, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
I live and learn! I've just wasted 20 minutes of your time and mine! Doug butler (talk) 01:52, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
If it makes you feel better, it used to be the "MacX" construction until a few years ago, and it took me ages to find the right guideline. (I knew I'd read about the change somewhere ...) Frickeg (talk) 01:58, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
The instruction makes as much sense as a lot of others, but you play by the rules if you wanna play. Doug butler (talk) 02:03, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Andrew Murray (journalist)[edit]

Thanks for adding to Andrew Murray (journalist). You were quick. I got distracted last night before I could do more than born and died. Billingd (talk) 22:05, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Sounds like an interesting person. You're in the right place to find out more on his winery! Doug butler (talk) 22:19, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Common names[edit]

Hey, I'm loving your work on the SA MLCs, but now you're getting into modern times can you make sure you're adhering to WP:COMMONNAME? A good amount of the ones you're adding now aren't most commonly known by the names you're creating articles and linking them as. The Drover's Wife (talk) 20:01, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks DW. I wasn't aware of WP:COMMONNAME; I have been using names as in Parliament Records. You'd better move Renfrey Curgenven DeGaris for me! Doug butler (talk) 20:04, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


Congratulations on getting through to the modern day with your Legislative Council project. You should be seriously proud of that. SA is a horrible state to try to put MP articles together on because the online resources are so bad, and we generally don't have good coverage of Legislative Council members generally - even in places like NSW where we have every lower house MP, we don't even have upper house member lists for an entire century, so the fact that you did not only every parliament but every member, and did respectable articles on them is freaking phenomenal. The Drover's Wife (talk) 21:34, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Where did you get Jim Gilfillan as a common name in Lyell McEwin? Just trying to keep them all consistent. The Drover's Wife (talk) 21:50, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Probably confused with his father who was also involved with Jamestown Council. He was called Gordon at his wedding, so wherever I got it from I was wrong. Thanks for picking it up. Doug butler (talk) 03:31, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Wow. Amazing job. Frickeg (talk) 04:42, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Ta. Still a lot of cells to fill though. The Party ones will be easy - mostly Libs. Doug butler (talk) 03:31, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Not too hard a job between the parliamentary website and your own articles, and the term expiry dates are pretty easily sortable from the Statistical Register (I'm assuming you're working from it but if not it is easily available on the parliament's website in Google). I've done back to 1950 and slowly knocking over the rest. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:18, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Season's Greetings![edit]

Pdfpdf (talk) 11:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

And to your good self! Doug butler (talk) 20:01, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
I thought Internet speed was slow in Marion but it's lamentable in Nicholls, ACT. Doug butler (talk) 10:02, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
Maybe it's something to do with the excessive amounts of hot air? Pdfpdf (talk) 11:17, 28 December 2014 (UTC)