User talk:Dr clave

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Welcome![edit]

Hello, Dr clave! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking Button sig.png or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! BelovedFreak 20:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Getting started
Getting help
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The community

Writing articles
Miscellaneous

March 2010[edit]

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Clave (rhythm) has been reverted.
Your edit here was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to remove links which are discouraged per our external links guideline from Wikipedia. The external link you added or changed is on my list of links to remove and probably shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. I removed the following link(s): http://rumbaclave.blogspot.com/2007/08/rumba-clave-illustrated-analysis.html/Rumba (matching the regex rule \bblog(?:cu|fa|harbor|mybrain|post|savy|spot|townhall)?\.com\b). If the external link you inserted or changed was to a blog, forum, free web hosting service, or similar site, then please check the information on the external site thoroughly. Note that such sites should probably not be linked to if they contain information that is in violation of the creator's copyright (see Linking to copyrighted works), or they are not written by a recognised, reliable source. Linking to sites that you are involved with is also strongly discouraged (see conflict of interest).
If you were trying to insert an external link that does comply with our policies and guidelines, then please accept my creator's apologies and feel free to undo the bot's revert. However, if the link does not comply with our policies and guidelines, but your edit included other, constructive, changes to the article, feel free to make those changes again without re-adding the link. Please read Wikipedia's external links guideline for more information, and consult my list of frequently-reverted sites. For more information about me, see my FAQ page. Thanks! --XLinkBot (talk) 23:22, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Your recent edits[edit]

Information.svg Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button Button sig.png located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 21:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Welcome again![edit]

Hello. As a contributor to music related articles on Wikipedia you may be interested in reading and contributing to the current standards for music related articles on Wikipedia such as:

or creating new ones. There is also Portal:Music, which is like the front page but music exclusive. Hyacinth (talk) 14:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Images#Using_images. Hyacinth (talk) 08:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Embedding graphics[edit]

I created the graphic above of son clave and rumba clave. It is the correct size in relation to the page. When I embed it into the article just now though it is extremely large. Any file I embed is way too large. Why?--Dr clave (talk) 03:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Extended image syntax (and the less informative Wikipedia:Picture tutorial)
Specifically: "the syntax for displaying an image is...[[Image:Name|Type|Border|Location|Alignment|Size|Link|alt=Alt|Caption]]
Size[:] 'Widthpx'.... Scale the image to be no greater than the given width [550px used to be the maximum allowed to accommodate archaic screen sizes (WP:ImageSize)]...."
However, the quickest way to use links, tables, or images is to simply copy how you see others being displayed. The drawback is that without actually learning the syntax one is copying and pasting blind, so to speak. The best way to test out various options is the "show preview" button. Hyacinth (talk) 16:06, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I will continue my attempts to learn how to do it.--Dr clave (talk) 06:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Son and rumba clave.png
[[Image:Son and rumba clave.png|thumb|center|550px|3-2 son and rumba clave in simple and compound meter variants.]]
produces the image on Talk:Clave (rhythm). Some of the options are left out, such as "Alt".
[[Image:Son and rumba clave.png|thumb|right|225px]]
produces this image:
Hyacinth (talk) 09:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I imagine I'm a horrible role model, but as in graphs, "The descriptive text should be confined to the caption as much as possible" (Wikipedia:How_to_create_graphs_for_Wikipedia_articles#Guidelines #3) in part to allow the use of images in other languages (Wikipedia:Image_use_policy#Rules_of_thumb #5 is contradictory or impossible, since if an image is not being used it will be proposed for deletion). Hyacinth (talk) 01:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I see. Do you recommend that I re-do some of my examples?--Dr clave (talk) 03:57, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Clave (rhythm)[edit]

Talk:Clave_(rhythm)#Examples may be of some assistance in clarification. Hyacinth (talk) 21:19, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Misc.[edit]

Hopefully I'm overall more helpful and than annoying.

Yes, it is quite helpful. Sorry for being so dense. I still seem to be quite far from working correctly within this medium. However, I do understand the information you are giving me here, so there may be hope for me yet.--Dr clave (talk) 22:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

If you have uploaded an image and decided you don't like it and want to replace it you may either upload a new image under a new file name or you may "Upload a new version of this file". A "new version" is appropriate if either no one else is using the file or others are using it but would not be affected (such as if there is text in the image and it you are correcting the spelling). For example, instead of uploading a file under the name File:Son clave 3 side and 2 side-B.png you could have gone to File:Son clave 3 side and 2 side.png and clicked "Upload a new version of this file". Hyacinth (talk) 22:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Also, 1) you don't need to sign your name in edit summaries because your name is recorded in the edit history. And, 2) the signature tildes don't work the way they do on talk pages, so if you put four tildes in an edit summary "~~~~" is what is recorded rather than the appropriate equivalent: "Hyacinth (talk) 22:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)"

File source problem with File:2-4 polyrhythm.png[edit]

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Thank you for uploading File:2-4 polyrhythm.png. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 17:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Annual north country fair samba parade in Arcata, California[edit]

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A tag has been placed on Annual north country fair samba parade in Arcata, California requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person, organization (band, club, company, etc.) or web content, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. reddogsix (talk) 05:07, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of North Country Fair Samba Parade[edit]

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The article North Country Fair Samba Parade has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Non-notable event lacking GHits and GNEWS of substance.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. reddogsix (talk) 15:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I have made some improvements with the article. If you decide that it's not worthy of being a WP article, might it be appropriate to be merged with the article on Arcata California? - dr clave 10/30/11

Nomination of North Country Fair Samba Parade for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article North Country Fair Samba Parade is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/North Country Fair Samba Parade until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. reddogsix (talk) 15:35, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Dr Eugene Novotney[edit]

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The article Dr Eugene Novotney has been proposed for deletion because, under Wikipedia policy, all newly created biographies of living persons must have at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within ten days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one. reddogsix (talk) 18:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Dr Eugene Novotney[edit]

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You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

A tag has been placed on Dr Eugene Novotney requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a clear copyright infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing.

If the external website belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text — which means allowing other people to modify it — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. If you are not the owner of the external website but have permission from that owner, see Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. You might want to look at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines for more details, or ask a question here.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. reddogsix (talk) 18:46, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Your request at REFUND[edit]

The procedure for making a copyright release is explained at WP:Donating copyrighted materials. We can't accept copyright material on the basis of assertion of authorship, because (a) we have no way to be sure that someone on the end of a wire is who he says he is, and (b) release under Wikipedia's license involves more than just permission to reproduce - it allows any reader to copy, modify and use for any purpose including commercial, and it is essential that the copyright owner understands what he is agreeing to.

Material written for other purposes is often unsuitable for an encyclopedia article because of promotional tone and unsupported claims - an encyclopedia article should contain plain facts, neutrally stated and supported by reliable sources. Your text doesn't look too bad in that respect, but beware of what we call "peacock terms" like "prestigious" and be aware of the WP:Verifiability policy: "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source". Claims like "He is recognized internationally" are likely to attract [according to whom?] or [citation needed] tags or be removed unless supported by a reference. References generally are important, particularly for biographies of living persons - that's why this attracted a BLPprod notice when it appeared without any.

If you want to take time preparing an article, see Help:Userspace draft for how you can make a draft in your userspace, and not move it into the main encyclopedia until it is ready, avoiding the risk that an incomplete or unreferenced article may be deleted.

The WP:General notability guideline looks for evidence of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", and the specific ones for academics and musicians are at WP:PROF and WP:MUSICBIO. There is good advice at WP:Your first article and WP:Writing better articles. Regards, JohnCD (talk) 10:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your guidance. Am I correct to assume that I can make a second attempt at this article, provided I improve it in the manner you have described? dr clave.
Yes, certainly, but if you use text from your previously-published material you must follow the WP:Donating copyrighted materials procedure. Even if you plan to modify the text, it is still necessary, because WP:Close paraphrasing does not avoid a copyright violation. JohnCD (talk) 19:34, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

OK. Understood. Thanks. - dr clave 10/30/11

Nomination of Explorations in afro-cuban dance and drum for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Explorations in afro-cuban dance and drum is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Night of the Big Wind talk 14:34, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

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Guajeo[edit]

It would be good if you can add a cogent lead paragraph to the article, basically saying "Guajeo is... etc". AllyD (talk) 21:09, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for your guidance.

Edit summary[edit]

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. Please make sure to include an edit summary. Please provide one before saving your changes to an article, as the summaries are quite helpful to people browsing an article's history. Thanks! Hyacinth (talk) 07:22, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Please provide a proper edit summary. If you mean to provide a signature, which is completely uninformative (as your identity and the time of the edit is automatically saved in the edit history), you will at least have to cut and paste, as the tildes do not provide a signature in the edit summary the way they do on talk pages. Hyacinth (talk) 22:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

hi talk:Hyacinth, If I understand you correctly, I don't need to add that tilde because my name is automatically added? Concerning providing proper edit summaries, I thought I have been, except when I do minor changes like punctuation. In the case of the latter, I click on that "This is a minor edit" button. Are any of these actions incorrect on my part?

If you click on "Page history" on this page, for example, you will see a list of the edits that users have made to that page (as described at Help:Page history). The normal edit summary you appear to enter is "~~~~", which saves and appears as "~~~~". This is obviously uninformative and does not summarize your edit.
Your last edit summary on this page is "asked for clarification~~~~". This seems to indicate you think you are leaving a signature, when you are not. Hyacinth (talk) 13:06, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

OK. I think I understand. I son't need to post a tilde because I am identified every time I make a change.

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AfD and PROD notifications[edit]

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A beer for you![edit]

Export hell seidel steiner.png Just wanted to give you a beer for your recent good work in improving the Danzon article on Wikipedia :) Rumba y Son (talk) 12:05, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank Man!Dr clave (talk) 15:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

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Hello[edit]

How you doing 3-2 it's the clave of son cubano used in the son montuno. 2-3 it's the Rumba clave mambo used the clave of cuban son and rumba but normally used 3-2 you said the Afro-Cuban jazz used mambo bell pattern (2-3 clave if you answer to me the question I will appreciate that, Maybe I'm wrong)174.98.138.223 (talk) thanks —Preceding undated comment added 05:55, 20 March 2012 (UTC).

hello, I agree with what you are saying in regards to which clave is used with which rhythm. However, you are confused concerning the 3-2, 2-3 terminology. Don't feel bad. It is a common misconception. 3-2, 2-3 does not indicate whether it is son clave or rumba clave that being used. It refers to which measure comes first.

I posted a graphic here to show you. The top line shows rumba clave in 3-2 sequence. The first three strokes are in the first measure and the last two strokes are in the second measure. Therefore, the top line is 3-2 rumba clave. The second line shows 2-3 rumba clave because the order of the measures is reversed.

Rumba clave cut-time 3 & 2

Below is son clave in 3-2 sequence (top line) and son clave in 2-3 (bottom line).

Son clave cut-time 3-2 & 2-3

The mambo bell pattern shown in the Afro-Cuban jazz article aligns with the 2-3 son clave pattern.Dr clave (talk) 06:07, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

thanks for answer[edit]

Then you said tanga don't used the clave, tanga was based in the clave, Bobby Sanabria considered tanga as the first Afro-Cuban jazz composition tanga used the clave, congas, bell, bongo, guayo, maracas, you have listened, tanga 1943 they used all the rhythms of son montuno, Perez Prado had not created the mambo yet as was known in 1943 that step after in 1948. Mario Bauza created his composition tanga in 1943, the mixture was son montuno and jazz, do not mambo and jazz .. In 1943 it was known of the existence of the Danzon Mambo of Orestes Lopez Cachao created in 1938 but really that was a different genre charanga format. thanks i'm sorry for change that part.174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC).

hi, I didn't say Tanga does not use clave. I said it was the first jazz piece in clave: >>The first jazz piece to be overtly based in-clave was "Tanga" (1943) composed by Cuban-born Mario Bauza and recorded by Machito and his Afro-Cubans.<<

I changed the date from 1942 to 1943. Thank you for that correction.

I see your point concerning son montuno versus mambo. OK. I'm fine with a mixture of son montuno and jazz, although descarga would be a more appropriate term.Dr clave (talk) 07:56, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Can you please cite a son montuno where that "Manteca' bell pattern is used? I don't recall hearing it in son montuno. Thank you.Dr clave (talk) 07:59, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

== Are you there ==174.98.138.223 (talk)

Novotney advice[edit]

I see higher up on this page that you tried to make an article about percussionist professor Eugene Novotney. I took a quick look around the interwebs and I have this advice: the career of Novotney needs to be described in at least two national-level publications, not in passing but specifically targeted. That would answer any complaint about notability. Otherwise, the guideline at Wikipedia:Notability (music) allows for a biography article if some other criteria are met, as does the guideline at Wikipedia:Notability (academics). Basically, Novotney has to be shown to have had a larger effect than his fine work with ensembles and percussion at Humboldt State. Binksternet (talk) 17:01, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your guidance. Novotney's art music compositions are performed all across the globe. Would you consider YouTube links to be sufficient documentation of this?Dr clave (talk) 19:53, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Definitely not. Youtube has a very poor reputation on Wikipedia, and is never used to establish notability. What's needed are print sources, or very widely read online sources such as Huffington Post. In such sources the description of Novotney must not be trivial, mentioned in passing.
As an example, this article in the North Coast Journal, "Pan Man", fails on two accounts. The journal is local or regional, not national, and the article mentions Novotney in passing. It's about Michael Skweir.
Another example is "Steel Crazy", published a year ago by CSU Humboldt. It devotes non-trivial attention to Novotney's life and career, but it is very local, not national.
I hope this gives you an idea of the hurdles to be leaped. Binksternet (talk) 23:44, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Thank you.Dr clave (talk) 16:42, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

hello[edit]

You doing a good job, you know what you do I'm sorry for the inconveniences. I will help you with history if you need it. thanks have good day.174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:24, 20 March 2012 (UTC).

Thank you. It has been a pleasure conversing with you. In regards to the history, can you cite an early 1940s son montuno where I could hear that "Manteca' bell pattern? I am only aware of its use in mambo. I would like to hear it.Dr clave (talk) 19:56, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I had not seen your question[edit]

The son montuno, Arsenio Rodriguez arrangement of the mambo diablo in 1946 used the same bell pattern used in the composition (Manteca) from Chano Pozo and Gillespie and Damaso Perez Prado in his mambo and others. I try to find the video on youtube and leave the link here, but I could not find it. 174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:54, 21 March 2012 (UTC).

OK, thanks for looking. If you find some documentation, please let me know. In the meantime, I'm going to change it back to mambo bell pattern, because mambo was what was happening in New York City in 1947, the year "Manteca" was recorded, not son montuno (even though without the son montuno, there would not have been mambo). According to author John Storm Roberts in Latin Jazz (1999: 71-72), José Curbelo recorded "El rey del mambo" in New York in Nov. 1946, two years before the first Perez Prado mambos were released in the U.S. Roberts: "Curbelo's 1946-47 recordings clearly show signs of the New York mambo style of the mid-1940s. . . 1947 brought an intensification of the mambo buildup." In 1947 New York-based Tito Rodriguez's band was named the Mambo Devils. In 1947 they recorded "Mambo moña."

Also, concerning Stan Kenton's work in 1946-47, his "Machito" featured no Cuban instruments, or drum rhythms. Shelly Mann, a very capable jazz drummer, was not familiar with Cuban rhythms. Therefore, while Kenton does deserve mention in the article, he should be removed from the opening paragraph.Dr clave (talk) 17:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

It's fine if you wanna changed you doing a better job than others i support what you do[edit]

The word mambo were in the Cuban music since 1938, that does not mean that the king of the mambo Jose Curbelo is a mambo as the musical genre of Perez Prado, if you listen the king of the mambo Jose Curbelo is a guaracha, it's not mambo. 174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:07, 22 March 2012 (UTC).

Thanks for your support.

I think one of the problems here is that the term mambo has several meanings, depending upon who used it and when they used it. The Lopez's composition "Mambo" has differences from the genre mambo as performed by Perez Prado, which in turn is different from the genre mambo as performed by the New York groups, beginning in the late 1940s. In New York, the term mambo is also synonymous for montuno section. Add to that, the fact the major innovations began with the son montuno of Arsenio Rodriguez, and it's easy to understand why there have been so many arguments among musicians and musicologists on the subject of mambo.Dr clave (talk) 21:17, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

i'm back[edit]

Mambo became popular in Mexico in 1948 before it was unknown as mambo somewhere, mambo comes to New York by the popularity of Perez Prado in Mexico in 1948. Conjunto Casino, Roberto Faz and others called mambo, guarachas, son montuno, and were not the mambo musical genre, to understand what I say you should listen to the king of the mambo is a guaracha, sung by tito rodriguez. In New York they call it mambo all Cuban music. For example the song sun sun Babae Jose Curbelo of 1952 is written on the cover as mambo and its not a mambo its a guaracha, that sounds like a salsa today. the guaracha is Cuban music too, (El rey de el mambo) its a Cuban genre guaracha, in New York they called mambo but its not174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC).

You make a very important point. I understand and agree with what you are saying. Usage of these terms in the United States has tended to be different, or less precise than in Cuba where they originated. However, one of the problems is that North American usage has been around now for more than a half century, and is now codified. North American usage is often the lingua franca outside of Cuba. The only term more problematic than mambo, is salsa. In the English language Wikipedia, English usage is appropriate. That does not mean however, that the reader should not be educated as to what these terms originally meant in Cuba, and made aware of some of the problems that arise when Cubans and North Americans discuss the music. The 3-2, 2-3 clave terminology, which we have already discussed, is another problem area, only in that instance, it was a matter of the Cubans changing the meaning, not the North Americans.

The issue of the meaning of mambo should be dealt with on the Mambo (music) page. It's an important topic. Since Wikipedia strives to put forward neutral text, it's important to present the different usages in that light, and avoid when possible, the categories of right and wrong.Dr clave (talk) 22:03, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

About Stan Kenton[edit]

Stan Kenton used and his composition (machito) the instrument conga and Rumba rhythm. dedicated to the musician Machito in 1946.174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC).

OK, I see now. According to Roberts (p. 73), Kenton's original 1947 version had "no Latin instrumentalists on it," and Shelly Mann the drummer, did not play anything like a Cuban rhythm. Later that year, Kenton re-recorded "Machito" with Ivan Lopez on bongó. No mention of a conga, but I take your point. Do you have copies of either of these versions?

Thanks.

This version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2kXzV3Eaas

was recorded in 1958.Dr clave (talk) 22:47, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion[edit]

If you agree with me do not change the son montuno, you can simply add the guaracha and mambo. all three genere have the same patterns, in many compositions before the era of the mambo of Perez Prado. About Tito Rodriguez, he found his orchestra in 1948 do not 1947 let me know the book that said was one year before please. is a pleasure talking to you about music. we keep talking 174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:36, 22 March 2012 (UTC).

The book is Latin Jazz by John Storm Roberts.

http://www.amazon.com/Latin-Jazz-First-Fusion-1880s/dp/0825671922/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1332456501&sr=1-1

It's out of print but you can get a used copy for $10.95. Roberts is not a precise musicologist as far as his analysis, but I have found his source material and dates to be correct.Dr clave (talk) 22:51, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

I changed the bell pattern name back to mambo. If you can cite a pre-1946 son montuno for me that uses that pattern, I'll change it back.Dr clave (talk) 06:00, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Original research discussion[edit]

I invite you to take part in a discussion at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Advice needed for next step to take at Salsa music.

The recent IP editor changes at salsa music are being discussed with regard to possible violations of the guideline Wikipedia:No original research. Thank you. Binksternet (talk) 23:23, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Boy, that article has been a real mess for some time! I remember seeing that it was shut down a couple years ago because of heated arguments. I'll take a look now.Dr clave (talk) 00:06, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
The arguments are often about who is first or most important: Cuba? Puerto Rico? New York? The books about salsa music comment on this kind of friction, too, so it is not only Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 01:01, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Right. If those arguments could be presented in as neutral a fashion as possible, it would be a great service. Salsa was essentially produced, performed, and marketed by New Yorkers of Puerto Rican descent. The Cuban origins were not acknowledged for years. Today there are several different nationalities claiming ownership of salsa. The Cubans even embraced the term salsa finally in the early 90s. They coined the term salsa Cubana, although the term timba soon caught on and salsa was dropped.Dr clave (talk) 02:00, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

No one speaks in the article who is best if Cubans or Puerto Rican, you're the one who is arguing that Binksternet, creating confucion dear friend.174.98.138.223 (talk)

Dear friend[edit]

Your library can not support more than 600 LP I have classic Cuban music from the 50's, I am Venezuelan, and the songs and arrangements of Jose Curbelo, el conjunto casino, Roberto Faz, Cheo Marquetti, Machito and Arsenio Rodriguez from the 50's is the same as the musical arrangements of today and they do not have any kind of difference. listen to Jose Curbelo lalala, 1954, Sunsun Babae 1952, Roberto Faz pintate los labios Maria 1957, all of them were Cubans. how can you say that salsa is not from Cuba, and the mambo is not the only Cuban rhythm that uses the bell 2-3. Son montuno, guaracha, mambo, use the bell pattern 2-3. You say and your page discussion you studied in Cuba, Are you from Cuba, Why you do not defend your music, listen what Tito Puente, Bobby Sanabria, Papo Lucas said about salsa.It's all about the Cuban music that was recorded from the 40s to 50s and his statements were shown.173.78.130.133 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:50, 29 March 2012 (UTC).

You are misunderstanding me on a few points. We may be having a problem because of our languages. I never said that salsa is not essentially Cuban music. What I am saying is that it is a mistake to call Cuban music salsa. Do you see the difference? Willie Colon had a New York salsa band. Adalberto Alvarez y su son is a Cuban son band. Bamboleo was a Cuban timba band. They all come from the same Cuban roots, but the terminology varies, depending upon the style, and locals of the music being played.

While records do carry some weight on Wikipedia (I have more records than you by the way), published writings are the final arbitrator. I'm sure you find that frustrating, but that's how encyclopedias work. Please look again at the Diablo section of the Arsenio Rodriguez page. Arsenio said that he began experimenting with his diablo in 1934, but he didn't record it until the 1940s. Our records provide valuable information, but not always all the information we need to write complete articles.

Salsa is very controversial term because some deny there is such a thing, while others are strongly identified with salsa. On the Wikipedia Salsa page it is important to represent both views in a NEUTRAL manner. This can be difficult if the editor feels strongly one way or the other, as you appear to. I am attempting to write the opening paragraph for the Salsa page. I have pasted my first draft below. I hope that I represent your views correctly, but I am also obliged to represent the opposing views. That's how it works on Wikipedia. I hope you will look it over and give me any comments you might have. What I would appreciate very much, is if you would not go in and change things the way you have in the past. I am putting hours of work into these articles, and I would appreciate it very much if you would show me the courtesy of sharing any objections with me here first. Here's what I have so far:Dr clave (talk) 03:02, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Salsa music is a general term referring to Cuban popular dance music created outside of Cuba. The Cuban forms include son montuno, guaracha, cha-cha-chá, mambo, and bolero, as well as the occasional use of non-Cuban Caribbean genres. Latin music promoter and Latin New York Magazine publisher Izzy Sanabria, first used the term salsa in 1973 as a means of promoting Latin music in New York City.[1] The term took hold and became extremely effective in marketing the burgeoning New York Latin music market first within New York, and then, internationally. The most successful in this endeavor was Jerry Masucci’s Fania Records. Initially, salsa was primarily the music and dance of New Yorkers of Puerto Rican descent, but in time, salsa became a vast pan-Latin American musical movement. Ironically, Cuban music was promoted more effectively worldwide in the 1970s and 1980s by the salsa industry, than by Cuba. Today, competing nationalities claim ownership of the music, as there are musicians in New York City, Puerto Rico, Columbia, and Venezuela, who claim salsa was invented in their country.[2] While salsa occasionally incorporates non-Cuban genres such as the Puerto Rican bomba and plena, the Dominican merengue, and the Columbian cumbia, these forms are essentially grafted onto the Cuban son montuno template.

In some instances because ignorance, or in other cases, because of intentional political or economic motivations, the Cuban origins of salsa were not well known for the first couple of decades. Today there is considerable controversy surrounding the use of the term salsa. Some deny there is such a genre: “There is no such thing as salsa”—Pérez Prado; “The only salsa I know is sold in a bottle called ketchup”—Tito Puente.[3] Others, who were pivotal in salsa’s development, see it differently: “Salsa is the harmonic sum of all Latin culture that meets in New York”—Willie Colón; “Salsa music is urban folklore at the international level”—Rubén Blades.[4].

I'm from Venezuela, and i never listen any person in my country said, salsa born in Venezuela; about Colombia, I have never heard that someone said that the salsa was born there who brought salsa music to Colombia was Fruko y sus tesos in the 70's., about New York, people who have no knowledge of music, think the salsa was born in New York, the only born in New York City was that word. what I've heard is that the word salsa were born in Venezuela, and others say the word salsa was born in New York, but the musical genre its 100% Cuban, there's no discussion.173.78.130.133 (talk)

Actually, that is not the end of the discussion because there are thousands of people who disagree with you. Those statements were made on video tape in Venezuela and Colombia. They are documented. No one is saying that you made those statements Venezuela and Colombia. One cannot address the subject of salsa thoroughly without addressing this disagreement between two competing camps. I basically agree with what you are saying, but my job as an editor is not to push my view, but rather, represent these two opposing viewpoints. I would like to represent both views so well, that the reader will understand both sides of the argument, without being able to discern how I, the editor actually feels about it. While I am interested in what you are telling me, I cannot quote someone who's name I only know as 173.78.130.133. Here are a couple of quotes which I think support your view:

Celia Cruz: "salsa is Cuban music with another name. It's mambo, chachachá, rumba, son . . . all the Cuban rhythms under one name.” “There is no such thing as salsa”—Pérez Prado.

I am also gathering quotes from the other side. If those opposing statements are false, or not defendable, then it should be obvious to a careful reader. Let the opinions of those you disagree with stand or fall on their own merits. Do not alter them, or inject needless qualifications like "commercial." Instead, why don't you make sure that your viewpoint is represented clearly?Dr clave (talk) 07:27, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

salsa music, do not has elements of cumbia or Puerto Rican bomba dear friend thats not true , the Cubans Jose Curbelo, Machito, Roberto Faz, Conjunto Casino, never used bomba or plena elements in their arrangement, el negro bembon of cortijo y su combo recorded in 1958 do not have bomba or plena elements, thats guaracha 100%, now la cumbia mexicana erroneously called some times [salsa cumbia] by Colombians were created by mexicans as Mike Laure and Carmen Rivero late 50's and early 60's those Mexicans added, timbal, congas, bongo, bell, all the son montuno musical instrumentation, the colombian do not created the modern cumbia. the bomba music has been present in Cuba since the Haitian revolution from 1791 to 1804 They Called tumba francesa, its the same music. And the bomba music arrived in Puerto Rico in 1880. I never put the word commercial, think other person put that word, but who said that are Johnny Pacheco, Tito Puente, Papo Lucas, Ruben Blades, Many Oquendo, Bobby sanabria, Bobby Valentin, and that is documented too.173.78.130.133 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:12, 29 March 2012 (UTC).

I know this do not support what I say but listen this, lalala Jose Curbelo 1954 cuban classic, curbelo used trombon in all their songs and arrangement since the 40's and 50's [1] la familia 1955 Curbelo use the vibraphone in this song in 1955 Joe Cuba don't put that instrument to the salsa music as some people said [2] sun sun babae 1952 [3] Roberto Faz pintate los labios Maria 1957 [4]173.78.130.133 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:39, 29 March 2012 (UTC).

If you have any documentation in regards to what ohnny Pacheco, Tito Puente, Papo Lucas, Ruben Blades, Many Oquendo, Bobby sanabria, or Bobby Valentin said, please share it.

I am a folkloric drummer, and saying "bomba music has been present in Cuba since the Haitian revolution" is not correct. Tumba francesa and bomba share a common Bantú ancestry, but they are not the same music.

Are you familiar with the songs "Bomba de corazon" or Mi cumbia" by Eddie Palmieri? Or, have you heard the plena "Elena elena" or the merengue "Traicionera" by Many Oquendo's Libre? There are many examples of the odd bomba or merengue played by a salsa band.

That wasn't you who pasted in "commercial?" OK. Sorry.Dr clave (talk) 05:14, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I could put all the videos were they explain about the commercial term to all Cuban music in the 70, if that work for you. I listen to the song Elena Elena and thats not salsa thats plena with some instrumentation of son montuno and you can feel the difference its not the same.173.65.241.140 (talk)

No videos, please; they are not very good sources. No personal analysis either, per WP:No original research. It does not matter how much you listen to music and come to conclusions about it, the only thing that matters to Wikipedia is what has been already written and published about the music. Our best sources are books about music. Binksternet (talk) 15:13, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Saludos[edit]

Orestes Lopez Cachao was never influenced by Arsenio Rodriguez, Arsenio left no documents to prove that he was who invented the mambo in 1934 as you said. If you have a book that says Arsenio invented the mambo, then that book is a lie. He created the son montuno add the conga another trump and the piano 1940, but the mambo of Perez Prado is totally different. you doing a good job in the Afro-Cuban jazz and latin jazz but do not get the idea that you are untouchable, not everything you write is correct, I do not want to go into details because it's not your fault, if not, of those who have written about salsa music without sufficient information, and pass the bad information to people like you.174.98.138.223 (talk)

Hello[edit]

Mi cumbia from Eddy Palmieri that's a cumbia but Eddie Palmieri did not invented the modern cumbia, Were Mike Laure, Carmen Rivero, and la sonora Santanera that began playing cumbia in the early 60's. do not mix everything, the song and arrangement of mi cumbia from Eddy Palmieri used instruments and patterns of son cubano and son montuno but the Mexican cumbia its completely a different genre and different music from salsa music. about (bomba de corazon) all the instrument used in that song used the same instruments and patterns of son montuno, the only different in this song are the touches of Rumba that they changed by the bomba music, but for one arrangement like this you can't say salsa is mix with all that music, because the 95% of music salsa in the world don't used bomba, plena or cumbia all of this three genre are different in musical structure. Cuban music influenced to Puerto Rican music completely. Now you can't say that Oscar de león and his song and arrangement of lloraras, ave maria lola, mi negra esta cansa, are mixed with other music its 100% cuban music, that's son montuno or guaracha as you wanna called. Now the song masucamba from oscar de Leon that's not salsa its merecumbe, thats a type of Venezuelan music a mix of cumbia and merengue so if the soneros of different country sing and touch some kind a different music that,s not mean its salsa, now fruko y sus tesos, el preso, cachondea, las caleñas, all that its 100% son montuno, now if you listen el cumbiambero of fruko y sus tesos, that's mexican cumbia that,s other genre nothing to do with the salsa that they play.174.98.138.223 (talk)

We seem to be having quite a communication problem. I never said Palmieri invented cumbia.

Izzy Sanabria, who first used the term salsa to promote Latin music in New York said: "I tried to define all Caribben music mixed with African and United States music as salsa" (1992: 189). The way Wikipedia works has been explained to you multiple times. If you want to post a view opposing what I'm writing, please do as I'm doing, and get a book or magazine quote to back it up. I would be happy to work it into the article. If salsa is anything, it's a subject with conflicting views.Dr clave (talk) 03:02, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

The problem here is, that what they play and call as salsa its Cuban music, exactly son montuno, guaracha and charanga orchestras format. Tell me how manny puerto rican play plena and call it salsa, they call plena as plena when you listen bomba music they call it as bomba when you listen cuban music they call it as salsa. Izzy Sanabria says i tried to define all Caribben music mixed with African and United States music as salsa" but they only music they call and play as salsa is Cuban music I'm really sure you know that.174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:36, 31 March 2012 (UTC).

That is the reason, why Bobby Sanabria specify that Puerto Ricans and niuyorricans, adapted, Cuban music and said when you dance salsa what you hear is son montuno, guaracha.174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:05, 31 March 2012 (UTC).

Estas dejando que un anormal como el Bistenek ese cambie toda la pagina y lo que decia de cuba que la salsa no nace en Nueva York hiendo en contra de los que saben como Bobby Sanabria, Tito Puente yo voy a esperar que le quiten el bloqueo y voy a cambiar la pagina a lo que decía, el unico que se quejo fue el bistenek nadie mas ni con la musica de Jose Curbelo y Roberto Faz de los años 50 entendiste174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:58, 31 March 2012 (UTC).

Tu eres uno de esos cubanos mama verga que no tienen huevos ni de exponer la verda sobre la musica cubana174.98.138.223 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:06, 31 March 2012 (UTC).

Latin jazz was not created in New York sir the Afro-Cuban jazz was created in New York city but do not happen the same with the Bossanova, this one was created in Brazil. If you wanna say some thing right, put in the article, the word Latin jazz was created to put under one name the Afro-Cuban jazz, Bossa nova and other Latin music mix with jazz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.98.141.237 (talk) 22:47, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

The first Latin jazz was Afro-Cuban jazz, created in NYC. Bossa nova from Brazil came later.Dr clave (talk) 23:06, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

I know the first Latin jazz was the Afro-Cuban jazz but they don,t call it with that name in the 40's. I repeat again, Latin jazz its a term to call more than one Latin music mixed with jazz, and not all of Latin jazz was created in New York you gave me the reason, the bossa nova was created in Brazil various year later have been established the Afro-Cuban jazz, then do you have to write in the article and explain, that's name is a term to put various Latin jazz genre under one term; Latin jazz. You put this in salsa music (changed Latin jazz "was also created in New York City" to "was also developed in New York City". Latin jazz is not a term to define Afro-Cuban jazz only its a term including Bossa nova and other type of Latin music, mixed with jazz and do not all of them were created in New York that's my point. I don,t know if you understand that now.174.98.141.237 (talk)


I do understand you and I disagree. So does Raul Fernandez, author of Latin Jazz, and John Storm Roberts, author of Latin Jazz (different books, same title). If you have any documentation (books, articles) that support your view please share them. Thank you.Dr clave (talk) 23:59, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

You don't understand yet, Raul Fernandez wrote in his book From Afro-Cuban rhythm to Latin jazz and he said very clear like this; """A mixture of conventional jazz harmonics with the driving rhythms of the Cuban son, known as Afro-Cuban jazz or Latin jazz i utilize a set of term in definitions that I Hope might allow people to discuss Afro-Cuban music and Latin jazz in a conceptual and theoretical manner. I also highlight the work of a number of musicians who perhaps with the exception of Celia Cruz, were never musical celebrities but rather journeyman musicians who labored for decades in relative obscurity""". He talk in his book about Afro-Cuban jazz and Latin jazz the same time, trying to explain its part of the Latin jazz; Reference of Raul Fernandez [5] he never said or wrote in his book, Latin jazz was crated in New York, because that been false. Latin jazz is the term to all the Latin music mixed with jazz mainly Afro-Cuban jazz in New York 1943 and Bossa nova Brazil 1957. 174.98.141.237 (talk)

OK, if I understand you, Afro-Cuban jazz is a form of Latin jazz. Yes?Dr clave (talk) 01:53, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, and its not the only one under that name, do not all type of Latin jazz was created in New York.174.98.141.237 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:41, 2 April 2012 (UTC).

I didn't say all types of Latin jazz were created in New York. I said it was developed in New York, which it was. It was also developed elsewhere.Dr clave (talk) 05:50, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Salsa music[edit]

I'm working on the salsa article right now. If you can keep clear of the article for an hour we will avoid edit conflicts. Thanks! Binksternet (talk) 17:49, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Haha! It took a lot longer than one hour but I did some fairly thorough work on the article. I was frustrated at not having the Leymarie source nor the salsa guidebooks published by Sher Music. If you see any mistakes I made, let me know. Binksternet (talk) 00:27, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Looks good. I like how you edited down the quotes.

A few things: Washburne is a professor, but he is also a salsa trombonist. That fact might add a certain weight to his analysis. Concerning note #33:

^ Washburne 2008, p. 40. "One notable exception is Willie Colón, who advocated a broader Latin American identity, while actually creating salsa that deliberately drew upon a variety of Latin American and Caribbean musics."

I paraphrased Washburne, and that is not a direct quote.

You quote Mayra Martinez in the present tense: "writes," but you have Sanabria's response in the past tense: "responded." We should use present tense whenever possible right?

Did you do any editing on any of the other sections? It doesn't appear so to me, which is fine. I think they need major re-working. I'm finishing some work on the Wiki Guajeo page. But soon, I intend to take a stab at the music section. It's a real mess with its terminology and concepts, and fixing it will be very satisfying.Dr clave (talk) 01:07, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I am looking forward to any improvements you can bring to the article. Here is the version of the article from six years ago, a version which was considered (at that time) to represent Wikipedia's best work. If you check out that old version you will see that we are already doing better, and further improvement will be frosting on the cake. Binksternet (talk) 04:47, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to the older version. I'll try to incorporate as much of that material as possible into my revisionsDr clave (talk) 15:30, 5 April 2012 (UTC).

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Adoption of the guitar in late C19 southern US[edit]

Arising from your edits at Rhythm and blues, it occurs to me that WP seems to have no substantial content on the process through which the use of the Spanish guitar developed among black communities in the southern states, and hence its adoption in blues music and R&B. My understanding (from sources like this - "The first blues used the guitar, an instrument Spanish in origin and, perhaps, introduced into the Delta by Mexican and Italian immigrants during the late 1890s. Spanish/Latino song practices came into serious involvement with the instrumentation of the first blues") - is that it came from Mexican immigrant workers. I'm not proposing that I write anything - I simply don't have the in-depth knowledge - but I thought you might be able to put something together, or expand whatever content already exists. Regards, Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:26, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Sounds interesting, but this is a subject I know very little about. Sorry.Dr clave (talk) 14:49, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

No problem, but it may be at least worthwhile to add the point that the guitar itself was an adoption of Hispanic culture - not only in the style of music played. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:34, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

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Hello[edit]

You wrote this in salsa music: The concept of clave as a form of music theory with its accompanying terminology, was fully developed during the big band era of the 1940s, when dance bands in Havana and New York City were enlarged. Who talk you that the concept clave was fully developed in New York that's Cuban music 100% and was developed in Cuba by differents orchestra of son montuno, and machito and bauza brought to New York as part of the Cuban music they played since in 1940s. You Came from Cuba when you was 10 years old and you let influence for the lies of the writer in New York. Who said that was developed in New York Bobby Sanabria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.98.134.152 (talk) 00:31, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

developed in Havana AND New York City. The 3-2 2-3 concept in particular was developed in NYC. It is not used in Cuba. Cubans confirm this.

  • Mongo Santamaria: "Don’t tell me about 3-2 or 2-3! In Cuba we just play. We feel it, we don’t talk about such things”—quoted by Washburne 2008 p. 190.

If you have documentation that contradicts this, please provide.Dr clave (talk) 01:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Nice to meet you![edit]

Hi David,

I have noticed your many contributions to Cuban music related articles, which have led me to your page and ultimately your website.

I see that we share a common passion for Afro-Cuban and Latin music, and that you have conducted research about the Clave and its development.

I am exploring the subject of Salsa music for more than five years, and I am also creating educational materials for helping others discover the beautiful structure and rhythm of this musical genre.

One of the programs I created is called [6] The Salsa Beat Machine. The program is available for free online and runs directly from within the website. It resembles a virtual Salsa band where you can individually control each of the instrument, change the patterns they play, the BPM settings, the key (for the chromatic instruments, e.g. piano and bass, etc), and add a voice counting the beats.

I see the Salsa Beat Machine as a complementary tool for the Salsa music entry, letting the readers improve their learning experience by actually listening and "playing" with the instruments and rhythms that are described in this entry.

I am looking to establish a reliable reputation for the correctness of the Salsa Beat Machine, in order to enable the inclusion of it as a reference in the article about Salsa Music.

To begin, I invite you to check it out and would love to get your feedback. I would love to continue discussing this, either here or over the email (uri at salsa4fun.co.il).

Looking forward to your response, Urishaked (talk) 21:35, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Uri, Sorry for the late response. I like your Salsa Beat Machine. I posted a link to it on my Unlocking Clave Facebook page.

I have three critiques concerning the terminology you use:

1. There are four main beats per clave (the four strokes on the "mouth" of the cowbell). You count eight beats per clave.

2. The musical playing is son montuno. Salsa uses son montuno a lot. It's not incorrect to call this salsa, but in the interest of educating people, I think you ought to mention that the form is son montuno.

3. The piano pattern is a guajeo. The piano plays guajeos during the montuno section. In the United States, many musicians refer to this part as a montuno, but technically, it is a guajeo.

These terms and your method of counting is used a lot in North America. I know why you use them. As an educational tool though, I suggest that you at least mention the precise terminology, in order to put your presentation on the highest level. Dr clave (talk) 03:03, 23 June 2012 (UTC)


Hi David,

Thanks for your critiques and posting the link under Unlocking Clave facebook page. I have just joined your page.

As a matter of fact, the Salsa Beat Machine began its life counting four beats per clave, but following a very long discussion and many requests for users, I have come into conclusion that 8 beats per clave is more commonly accepted, though both are valid as you mentioned.

I really like your comments and I will create a blog post about these differences and link to it from the main page. That's a great idea.

I am now working on an interactive online course, based on the Salsa Beat Machine and other software I created. The idea is to make it easy for new comers to get familiar and comfortable with Salsa Music while giving them an opportunity to evaluate themselves and their progress as they go.

If you are interested, I will give you a beta user so you could start looking around and I am sure you will have wonderful feedback regarding the terms and the overall syllabus of the course.

Urishaked (talk) 17:11, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

p.s. When you reply please leave another comment on my talk page, this way Wikipedia notifies me by mail. Thanks!

Explain[edit]

Could you explain your edits at the jazz article? Are you saying jazz is not AA music? B-Machine (talk) 15:43, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

hi, I dont understand your question. Can you please refer me to the edits you are referring to? Perhaps you can copy and paste the sentence or paragraph you are referring to? Dr clave (talk) 16:08, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Clave License[edit]

Hi David,

How have you been doing?

First of all, I wanted to thank you again for all your comments regarding how to improve the Salsa Beat Machine and make it musically correct.

It made me rethink the structure of the program, and it might lead to rearranging it using a whole different approach. Thank you!

You may be able to help with another matter, I hope it's OK to ask. It's about the "Clave License", and its usage in Cuban music.

A user asked whether its was invented by Los Van Van or are there any examples of earlier music that use this technique?

While he claims that "The Clave can never change direction" in traditional Cuban music, and that Cuban musicians live by the rule, I can't say whether he is right or not.

Perhaps you can share some of your experience and research on the matter and enlighten us ?

Many thanks!

Urishaked (talk) 23:37, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

The pattern the Cubans call clave is the key pattern, or guide pattern for a great deal of music in sub-Saharan Africa. I have never encountered folk music accompanying dance in Africa, or Cuba which exhibited "Clave License." Regardless of which side of clave a song begins on, the integrity of the pattern is maintained. However, in Cuban popular music, the clave is occasionally "broken." Examples can be found as far back as the first recordings of son in the 1920s. While Los Van Van is probably breaks clave the most, of all the contemporary bands, they definitely did not invent the practice.

What exactly do you mean by changing direction? Do you mean that the song goes from one side of clave to the other?Dr clave (talk) 04:08, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi David,

Thank you for your answer, that was indeed enlightening!

So what you say is basically - The integrity of the pattern is maintained in both African and Cuban folk music, while in what people commonly refer to as "Salsa", the clave pattern can be broken. Since this practice dates back to the first recordings on son, we can't really say where/when it originated, that is right?

right. Folk musicians typically don't think about clave, as a function of music theory. They just know and feel how it all goes together. It is in popular music, where clave entered music theory, where these "clave rules" were first articulated. Ironically, it is also in popular music where these rules get broken.Dr clave (talk) 22:11, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

By "Changing Clave direction", I believe that he meant breaking the clave pattern (i.e. repeating the 2 or 3 part of the clave twice). Even though, in the song "La Maquinaria" of Van Van, for example, I can't actually hear the pattern broken (reference http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cMzp31sy3c). It seems like it starts with 3:2 clave until minute 1:52, then changes to 2:3 clave starting from second 2:04. But for the time between 1:52 and 2:04, I can find any clue to implicit clave direction, perhaps you can spot one? Or is this a clave-neutral passage?

I'll get back to you on thatDr clave (talk) 22:11, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you much for sharing your knowledge and for your precious time!

Urishaked (talk) 20:52, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks David, You made me confident that I understood you correctly.

looking forward to your response (about that song) :-)

Urishaked (talk) 19:29, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Rather than trying to figure it out myself, I emailed timba authority Kevin Moore. This was his response: "The last half, atrévete, is in 2-3, but I'm pretty sure the beginning is 3-2. Usually samuel's kick is the arbiter, but here's it's not only vague but, like the bass, the same in both sections."Dr clave (talk) 05:40, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, you are quick! Thanks for asking Kevin Moore.

I recall his name, but I am not sure where from - I can tell I encountered it in the past. Would you be kind to tell me about him? How did you guys met and got to know each other? That is interesting to me. Thanks! Urishaked (talk) 00:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Kevin and I share research. Here's his blog on timba.com:

http://www.timba.com/users/kevinmoore

Dr clave (talk) 16:21, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, this is great! Did you guys find examples of songs where the congas play a guaguanco pattern while the clave is 3-2 son clave? (having the 3 part with the guaguanco open tones).

I think this happens in Aguanile (Hector's version), though this is piece is very fast, so I could just be wrong and perhaps it's a rumba clave and not son one...

You can hear the relevant version of the song here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp0NpqYD75k

(the clave animation there is currently wrong, so please ignore it).

Many thanks!

Urishaked (talk) 23:23, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

== You right when you said el manisero of don azpiasu is based on the clave 2-3, sure if it's a traditional cuban son, but i can't understand why you state that traditional cuban son as jazzy renditions if Don Azpiasu composition is a tradional son and it's not closer to be a afrocuban jazz, the Duck Ellintong and Louis Armstrong el manisero composition is the same composition from azpiasu and it,s cuban music it's not mix with nothing of jazz.174.98.152.28 (talk)

To answer your question. When a jazz musician like Louis Armstrong does a rendition of "El manisero," he can't help but make it jazzy. It sure won't sound Cuban. I'm not talking about the composition, which is undeniably a Cuban son, I'm talking about the interpretation of that tune.Dr clave (talk) 05:59, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

== I listen el manisero by louis armstrong many times and it's the same sound and arrangements from azpiasu composition, nothing is different please listen it if you can, check for your self what i try to explain to you and Louis Amrstrong did not used the clave, bongos,guiro,maracas in his composition, the only he used was the trompet, clarinet, violin, el manisero melodies and you said it's all firmly based in clave 2-3 that's not true. What you try to say that el manisero without bongo,clave,guiro y maracas sound jazzy but armstrong doesn't made that composition was Don Aspizu so if some thing sound jazzy was azpiasu who did it, Amrstrong did not has to do any thing in that which you wrote.174.98.152.28 (talk)

• As I said above " I'm not talking about the composition, which is undeniably a Cuban son."

• The "El manisero" guajeo defines the 2-3 clave structure (claves need not be played).

• Armstrong does jazz scat singing at 2:12.

THE PEANUT VENDOR by Louis Armstrong 1930

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Mandy Make Up Your Mind[edit]

Hi. I see that you misattributed the George W. Meyer & Arthur Johnston tune "Mandy Make Up Your Mind" to Irving Berlin - and even more unfortunately, that misinformation has been prominently displayed in the article Jazz for over a year. I corrected it. Thanks for your work - though this makes me worry that too few of us here are bothering to look at each other's work for obvious mistakes. Talk:Jazz#Mandy_Make_Up_Your_Mind. Cheers, -- Infrogmation (talk) 01:06, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for making the correctionDr clave (talk) 05:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

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  1. ^ Boggs, Vernon (1992: 187-189). “Izzy Sanabria: Popularizing Music,” Salsiology: Afro-Cuban Music and the Evolution of Salsa in New York City. New York: Excelsior Music Publishing Company.
  2. ^ The five-part VHS series Salsa (Bongo Video Productions, London, c. early 1990s) has interviews with informants from Cuba, New York City, Puerto Rico, Columbia, and Venezuela, all of whom claim that salsa was invented in their country.
  3. ^ Aparicio, Frances R. (1998: 65). Listening to salsa: gender, Latin popular music, and Puerto Rican cultures. Wesleyan. SBN-10: 0819563080
  4. ^ Aparicio (1998: 65).