User talk:EraNavigator

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Maps and books[edit]

I just sent you Fabian Istvan's Imperiul si barbaricum. I have only read the introduction to this book so far, but I can tell you it's about the relations between the Eastern Roman Empire and the territories north of the Danube during the 4-7 centuries. I think it also covers some of the period after the collapse of the Danubian limes.

Mmm. There are many changes you want me to make to the Roman Empire map. It will take some time. Unfortunately I can't help you this week, maybe the next week.

Andrei nacu (talk) 15:25, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Hey, have you receved the last two books I sent you? I got no reply from you since last week.

OK, I now have some extra time to deal with the Roman Empire map. I will make a new one from scratch which I hope will be the best historical map on wiki. Just wait me till tomorrow evening to get started.

Andrei nacu (talk) 17:44, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, I can't really be of much help if you don't tell me at least the name of an author who wrote something about the archeology of Moldavia. I know there is an Archeological Bulletin of Moldavia edited by the Iasi Archeological Institute, but it covers all the excavations across Moldavia regardless of the historical period.

I like your Costoboci article and I think it was a brilliant idea to put those notes about the Romanian archaeological interpretation and material culture and ethnicity. However, I really have to provide you with some more recent books on Romanian archeology. It's sad that you have to rely on 35 years old communist books.

Now a technical question regarding the Roman map. Do you think I should add shaded bathymetry like in this map: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Italy_relief_location_map.jpg or should I keep only the standard nuances of blue?

Andrei nacu (talk) 22:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I can't answer more frequently to your messages.

I'm not sure if I want to post my map on Wikipedia. The new physical map, as it stands now, looks way too good for a free online encyclopaedia. Maybe I should better improve the old map, at least for the time being.

It's pretty odd that you say you received the last 2 books I mailed you because I got a delivery error message. You'd better check your mail before thanking me for something you didn't get.

Andrei nacu (talk) 18:08, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Late Roman Army[edit]

Dear EraNavigator, I've only just seen your message after months. Your claim that I did not respect WP's etiquette is false. On the contrary, I made myself extremely clear: once again, if you ever had a look at the Notitia Dignitatum Orientis, which you indeed quote as if you did, you should have noticed that here duces are not placed sub dispositione of magistri militum as is the case in the Notitia Dignitatum Occidentis. Moreover, in referring to Jones's LRE as supporting your views, you're misrepresenting this author's and showing that you did not read carefully the secondary literature either. I have no more to say. You keep the wrong chart if you like. Regards, Fredmont (talk) 23:50, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Roman Empire map[edit]

The Empire in AD 125

Ciao Andrea,

I've uploaded a new version of the old empire map. Take a good look and tell me if there are any other changes you want me to make.

A friend of mine told me there are no recent books written about the Carpi or Costoboci. But she also mentioned this book from 1982: http://aleph.bcucluj.ro:8991/F/8GDENS76I2YRVVSPYC96JFK6MV3ESRA85XQQG5NH3FK2C81VCK-00341?func=full-set-set&set_number=016703&set_entry=000001&format=999

I will pay a visit to the Academic Library on Monday and I suppose I can take a look at it if you want. And I still have to go for Opreanu's 'Imperiul si Barbaricum', the last unscanned book of the ones we talked about.

P.S. I've sent you Tiplic's ('Early Medieval Fortifications in Transylvania (10-12 centuries)') and Opreanu's ('Transylvania at the end of antiquity and during the migrations period') books again. Hope they'll reach you this time. I used the best and most secure Romanian file sharing service, transfer.ro

Abracci

Andrei nacu (talk) 02:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

The new Empire map - Lambert azimuthal equal-area projection / ETRS89 datum

Ciao Andrea,

I believe you don't know what a map projection actually is. Anyway I just finished my maps for the Moldavian Electoral Comission (there was a really interesting election last Sunday in Moldova). The first one with the results of the past election is here (http://voteaza.md//userfiles/image/alegerile.png) while the other one will be pubished imediately after the definitive results of the November 28 poll will be announced today. If you are curios about the election results, I've uploaded a simplified version here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ALEGERILE_RM_28.11.10.png)

Well, I agree to place my new Roman Empire map on wiki, but I need some assistance from you in exchange. First of all, I want a scanned copy of the Barrington Atlas. Secondly, I need you to help me create 4 simillar maps of the later Roman Empire:

  • 1. The Empire during the reign of Diocletian (in 305)
  • 2. The Empire during the reign of Constantine the Great (around 330-337)
  • 3. The Empire at the end of the 4th century using the information from the Notitia Dignitatum
  • 4. The Empire at the end of Iustinian's rule (565)

Have you read any of the books I sent you? How do you find the authors' interepretations?

Andrei nacu (talk) 05:45, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

If there was a copy of the Barrington Atlas at my university library than I wouldn't have asked for your help. I need it to verify the routes of the main roman highways. My only sources, the Penguin Atlas of Ancient Rome and the DeAgostini historical atlas are not precise enough. And I really want to have a copy of the atlas for myself.

For the late Empire maps I need you to help me with the location of the barbarian tribes and the place of the legionary bases.

Moldova is a Romanian name of slavic origin. It's not Russian. And Transnistria still has a Moldavian plurality (33-34%) even after the dubious results of the census carried by the sepparatists in 2004 (http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fișier:Transnistria-harta_etnica_2004.jpg). In fact the Rusophones are mostly concentrated in the 4 largest towns of the region, Tiraspol, Bender, Rabnitsa and Dubasari. About 60% of the countryside is covered by Moldavian villages. There can be no question of reunification with Romania until the Russian army leaves Transnistria and the region is reintegrated with the rest of the Moldova. We cannot afford a Kaliningrad-type Russian enclave on our border.

Andrei nacu (talk) 22:49, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Exactly! The new projection is the same as the old one, Lambert azimuthal equal-area. However this time I haven't carelessly tilted the central meridian. I thought you were confusing the map projection with the map layout or design.

Oops. Sorry about the Fenni misspelling. I've chosen black for the legion names because it makes a better contrast with the topography. I don't think they are hard to distinguish as they are written in Italics with capital letters.

You are right that most Transnistrians want to remain under Russian tutelage, but some of them are realistic enough to see that neither Moldova nor Ukraine would ever allow them to become a second Kaliningrad. The Ukrainians are particularly worried about the developments in Transnistria and they have taken some important steps in recent years to boycott sepparatist registered products, car plates, money, Transnistrian-issued authorisations, etc, etc. It doesn't really matter where Moldova or Romania stand now but where they will be in 50 or 100 years. I believe the Rusophones in Transnistria will either gradually leave for Russia (after all, most of them came during the Soviet Union) or will have to learn Romanian after the region will be back under Moldavian control. In any case, I would rather have two Romanian states (like Germany and Austria) than a single unified country sharing a land border with Russia. And vodka is bad for your liver. ;)

Thank you for the promised Christmas present! Wow. I didn't know an atlas published 10 years ago could be so expensive!

I was wondering, why Noricum and Raetia had no stationed legions on their territory in 125? Were they not threatened by the neighbouring Marcomanni? Secondly, why were the oddly shaped Gallia Lugdunensis and Hispania Tarraconensis kept intact for so long? How could they be goverened from capitals (Lugdunum and Tarraco) situated at the far end of the provinces? And what was the reason behind leaving 3 tiny mountain provinces sandwiched between Narbonensis, Italia and Raetia? Was it practical to maintain them even though the imperial border was now quite distant from the Alpine region?

Andrei nacu (talk) 23:35, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, the empire map is pretty much completed by now. Do you have any comments, suggestions etc. ?
Andrei nacu (talk) 18:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't think we should take off the major maritime trade routes. I believe they complement the land routes and give us a better picture of the strong connections which existed between the major ports, especially those situated within the Mediterranean Basin.

I hope you noticed the other changes I made. Portus Namnetum was mispelled as Namnetus, Mare Adriaticum was Mare Hadriaticum on the old map, Lycia and Pamphylia was Lycia and Pamphilia...

And I still have to add those 4 or 5 bigger lakes in Algeria and Western Tunisia.

I've seen the name Sinus Arabicus written over the entire Red Sea, not only the Gulf of Aqaba on several maps. Do you have any sources which indicate that MARE ERYTHRAEUM was indeed the correct Latin name for the Red Sea?

Andrei nacu (talk) 22:31, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Hey, I haven't forgot about the sources, they are all here in the 'Summary': http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Roman_Empire_125.png

I'm sorry but I've gone skiing this week-end so I won't be able to make the changes to the Empire map until next week (probably on Wednesday). Still, I want to keep the sea routes and I don't agree on splitting the Sarmatae group into individual tribes. Next, the region you want me to place the Thraces in is already too cluttered. I remember I once put the name Danubius for Danube on the old map, but you said it should be Ister for the entire river length.
Yours,
Andrei nacu (talk)

WikiProject Dacia[edit]

Hi, I saw that you collaborated on articles related to Dacia and thought this could be of interest: WikiProject Dacia is looking for supporters, editors and collaborators for creating and better organizing information in articles related to Dacia and the history of Daco-Getae. If interested, PLEASE provide your support on the proposal page. Thanks!!--Codrinb (talk) 04:16, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Talkback[edit]

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Limigantes discussion notes Codrin.B (talk) 20:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Dacians as Slavs, Costoboci uncertain on the Roman Empire Map?[edit]

Dacians are marked with the same color as Slavs which is completely incorrect and unfortunate. While Costoboci and Carpi, considered by most historians as Dacian, are in a blue/uncertain color. While Bastarnae who are a Celtic-Germanic mix with possible Dacian elements is marked as Germanic for sure. This is raising serious questions about the map and its neutrality. I suggest at least a distinct Dacian color and section in the legend. --Codrin.B (talk) 20:44, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi[edit]

Happy New YEar, Era.

Say, do have any knowledge about the suffixation -onia in Thracian ? Eg Many Thracian -derived places have such endings. Edonia, Mygdonia, Krestonia, Palegonia, Paeonia, Macedonia (although the ethnic identity of the latter three aren;t exactly Thracian. Hxseek (talk) 00:45, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Talkback[edit]

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Please contribute to this issue with your view Codrin.B (talk) 21:08, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Dacian language collaboration[edit]

Since there are so many religious wars going on at the moment around Dacians and their language, we are proposing to all involved to use their creativity, knowledge and energy in creating separate articles for different language affinities. Stop deleting and reverting and start creating!

Instead, expand or create the articles listed at the WikiProject Dacia's Current Collaboration, using as much academic evidence you can gather.

Once these separate articles went through a lot of scrutiny and have reached a good article status, we can discuss the addition of links to the various theories and potentially even add sections about them in the Dacian language and Dacian tribes articles.

Let the Daciada begin! Thanks for your support! --Codrin.B (talk) 16:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Roman Empire map & Dacians[edit]

Hi Andrea,

I wish you all the best in the new year and I hope you'll finally be able to write your own history book(s) in 2011!

OK, I'll put the Iazyges, Roxolani, Costoboci and Agathyrsi on the map. Tell me their exact location. As for the road names, I will add them as soon as I'll have the Barrington Atlas to make a final ckeck of the road network. Just let me know if you're having difficulties purchasing a copy of the Atlas.

I'm currently on a heated debate with 2 Romanian users, Daizus and Codrinb regarding the Balto-Slavic linguistic affiliation of the Dacians and the labelling of the Costoboci, Carpi and Bastarnae. I would really appreciate some help from you. Afterall you're the brain behind the Barbaricum section of the Empire map and you can provide some references for the theories we decided to embrace. I don't want people to be doubtful about our map just because of some isolated disputes.

Andrei nacu (talk) 02:10, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

The debate with Daizus and Codrinb is going nowhere and I really came to suspect they are following an anti-Romanian agenda. Or maybe they are just paid by some organization to support theories going against the new vawe in Romanian historiography. At least they should be aware their ideas will be considered outdated fairly soon, maybe even sooner than they expect.

Now we need to conceive a battle plan for the next several weeks. You said you want to make an article with the list of Duridanov's Dacian words and their Baltic equivalents. I intend to create a new map of Roman Dacia to replace the old one which was made using a Communistoid map made by the Romanian Academy in the early 1990's.

It doesn't matter how you'll get the Barrington Atlas as long as you'll send me at least a scanned copy of it.

Ciao, Andrei (talk) 03:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Until you get started with the article on Duridanov's list I was thinking of classifying the Daci, and perhaps the Bastarnae as well, as Uncertain. Don't get upset, this will only be a temporary edit (I hope). And I think I should upload another map file with no ethno-linguistic labelling of the Barbarian tribes. What do you think?

If you read my latest messages on Codrin's talk page than you should know I haven't surrendered to their point of view. It was only a tactic to see how they reacted to my suggestion of reintroducing the Dacian linguistic group and making the Carpi and Costoboci Dacian. Fortunately Daizus prooved to be a honest chap and I kind of feel sorry for mixing him together with the Geto-Daco-Romanist and protochronist clique. The same cannot be said of Codrinb unfortunately... In any case I had so much fun debating against them!

Andrei (talk) 13:30, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I guess Daizus wants me to mark the Bastarnae as uncertain not because they had previously been a Celtic tribe, but because of some presumed connections with the Dacians or beacause they could have formed an ethno-linguistic group of their own. And oh yes they also inhabited parts of Greater Romania. I mean he had nothing to say about the 2 groups of Sitones or about the Southern Fenni whose location and affiliation is also quite controvesial and speculative. This really makes me suspicious.

Andrei (talk) 14:10, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I hate how Daizus is sticking his nose into our communications even more than you do, but I don't want him to believe I'm just blindly obeying your requests. If I haven't agreed with your proposals then I would have simply stated that as I did when you asked me to mark the Costoboci as Sarmatian. Why can't he understand this?

No, I was thinking of having two versions of this map so that people can choose which one they want to have in individual articles. The Bastarnae will remain Germanic, I agree with you. But I don't like how the Carpi, Daci and Costoboci are now all classified as uncertain. This could make people believe they were all related and that we couldn't find a suitable label for their ethno-linguistic group. And that would be OR. What can we do about it?

Andrei (talk) 15:49, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry. Noone can think that you are just a puppet, since we are debating the points between us. Obviously you are following much of my recommendations, as I am your content adviser. But let's just agree to get this guy off our talk pages. EraNavigator (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I've made the change to the Empire map. The Dacians are now classified as of uncertain origin. I hope you'll come soon with more arguments supporting the Dacian-Balto-Slavic connection as I am eager to revert the map to its previous version. And I also hope Hxseek will join this debate as soon as possible.

Andrei (talk) 19:37, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

After reading the article on the Carpi more carefully I kindly suggest you to soften the note on 'Romanian archaeological interpretation'. I don't like using articles like this one to discredit Romanian historiography. Even if the methods used by Communists like Gh. Bichir or Constantin Daicoviciu (maybe you heard of him) or by contemporary historians supporting the Continuity paradigm have been discredited in recent years we have to be less harsh on them. They were/are only thinking they were/are serving the national interest of Romania by advocating their theories and we should at least respect that!

And what do you think about classifying the Daci as Thracian? Wouldn't that be more fun and provocative?

Ciao, Andrei (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it would be better to write a sepparate article about the Communist or protochronistic influences in Romanian historiography, I don't know. In any case the continuity paradigm only deals with the Daco-Romans living in Roman Dacia and not with the Carpi or Costoboci.

I don't think any mainstream historian questions the affiliation of the Dacians to the Thracian ethno-linguistic group. I think it is more reasonable to mark the Daci as Thracian.

Andrei (talk) 15:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

If you say that noone knows to which group of Indo-European languages Thracian belonged to, than it would be logical to mark the Dacians as Uncertain. I think Hxseek will support this as well.

Andrei (talk) 15:05, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Talkback[edit]

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Dacian-Baltic connection Codrin.B (talk) 03:53, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Please stop the accusation and rhetoric and let's collaborate[edit]

Olive branch.svg

EraNavigator, please stop the accusations and attacks, since they are unfounded. I invited you to the project from the begining, and then I even created this very neutral proposal, where all linguistic theories have a place. Please provide your linguistic knowledge there. I appreciate your work, but like, Daizus I am questioning the obvious original research and the controversial, potential fringe theories. I am open to ideas and interested to see the new Dacian-Baltic connection page, as long as it doesn't fail to be notable and it is not original research. The other idea is that the map, due to the hard work of the author, is used everywhere, and it has to be stable. We can't experiment and push marginal ideas to it, since it will act like Trojan Horse in a lot of articles. Those are my only objections. I apologize if I overreacted to some of these changes. I think your efforts and interest are laudable.--Codrin.B (talk) 15:46, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Talkback[edit]

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Removal of citation needed templates from paragraphs that need citations Codrin.B (talk) 18:28, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

You have another reply on the article talk page. Please reply there again. Thanks.--Codrin.B (talk) 18:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Using the user space or WikiProject Dacia drafts space for high conflict articles[edit]

Given the highly controversial theories regarding Costoboci, Carpi (people), the amount of edit wars and the risk for conflict, I kindly suggest the use a user space or of the WikiProject Dacia drafts space, until the article is ready for prime time and a consensus is reached. You can certainly ask for reviews at the user/draft space. Thanks for your hard work and continued cooperation.--Codrin.B (talk) 19:42, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Dacia scope clarifications and disclaimer[edit]

Hello! Given the potential for conflict and suspicions raised by the WikiProject Dacia , I added an important notice for scope clarifications and disclaimer in the intro and goals/scope sections. If interested and willing, please review and provide any feedaback and suggestions you may have. Thank a lot! --Codrin.B (talk) 20:47, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Maps[edit]

Ciao Andrea,

I'm really getting bored of these disputes. But I just don't want to surrender to people who are doing so much harm by aggressively promoting the presumed original and disconnected 'civilization' of the Getae and Dacians all over Greater Romania and their speculative firm links with modern Romanians.

I made the Daci Balto-Slavic again and I don't give a damn if the Empire map will be entirely removed from Dacia-related articles. It doesn't deserve to be present on Dacian-biased articles.

Andrei (talk) 23:24, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Come on buddy, wake up! I need you to back what I recently stated on the map's talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Roman_Empire_125.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#File:Roman_Empire_125.png

If we are going to support the probable Balto-Slavic affiliation of the Dacians than we must go to the end with our reference-based arguments.

Andrei (talk) 13:15, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

I have made a report because of the incidents related to the Empire map and the Dacia wiki-project.

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

Well, Andrea if you had supported me and what I wrote on the map's talk page then things might have been different. Now is too late, as both Hxseek and Daizus suggested that the best way would be to mark the Daci as Uncertain. In any case, I consider Daizus to be a neutral and un-biased user, as opposed to Codrinb. And I frankly don't care if the Dacians spoke a Balto-Slavic or Tibetan language, but I kind of made use of this debate to expose some dangerous fringe ethno-racial concepts (Dacomania, Dacology and Protochronism) promoted around here.

Andrei (talk) 19:41, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The table looks great and I encourage you to keep building it. However I don't think this is enough for classifying the Daci as Balto-Slavic on the Empire map. You need to publish a book or at least an article on this subject if you want me and others to back your theory.

Andrei (talk) 20:10, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Tell me if you need references or sources to create your table. I will gladly help you with anything you need.

Hey, how are you progressing with the aquisition of a copy of the Barrington Atlas? I would appreciate if you could send me some material until middle February to finish the Empire maps and to draw a new map of Roman Dacia.

Andrei (talk) 20:18, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh God, I think Codrin is again dramatizing things. Please ignore all what he said about Balkan craziness or Romanians being over-sensitive about Dacians and Slavs. Everyone admits the Slavs had a major contribution to the Romanian Ethnogenesis and noone has threatened or assaulted me so far for having my doubts about Daco-Roman continuity theories :) And I think there are many neutral Romanian users on Wikipedia to choose from if you want someone else to preside over Wiki-Project Dacia. However, I think Codrin should be given a chance to redeem himself.

Andrei (talk) 21:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I like the way you come back to you articles and tone them down: plenty -> many :-) And please try to collaborate with Daizus. He has good points. I need a vacation!! :-) --Codrin.B (talk) 21:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I will enter my semmestrial examination period this Friday and you will scarcely hear from me in the coming 2 or 3 weeks. I wish you good luck with your table of reconstructed Dacian words. I hope we will also be able to finish the Empire map by the time I return. Ciao.

Andrei (talk) 22:59, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Talkback[edit]

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Thanks for your kind words. I have a few notes for you Codrin.B (talk) 20:33, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

List of reconstructed Dacian words

Les Thraces et leur Langue[edit]

Do you happen to have this book in English or French? This is all I found: http://books.google.com/books?id=zO0tAAAAMAAJ --Codrin.B (talk) 22:34, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

The work is in Bulgarian - but it includes a substantial summary in French.EraNavigator (talk) 22:37, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
That's what I figured. But then, do know Bulgarian to cite all those pages or are they part of the summary? Let's keep the conversation in one place, wherever it starts. It's easier to follow. BTW, he has a lot of works.--Codrin.B (talk) 22:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I don't know Bulgarian (although it's surprisingly easy to follow with a dictionary). The pages referred to are in the summary (which is about 30 pages long).EraNavigator (talk) 22:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Removing citation needed templates from articles[edit]

Hi there! Instead of removing {{citation needed}} from sections stating they are already referenced in the main text (where?!), please replace those tag with those references in the main text you are talking about. It is perfectly fine to reference the same book multiple times in the article, even though it might seem repetitive to you. If there are no such main text references, then please provide the additional/missing references. But do not remove the tags without giving those references, especially from disputed articles. I hope it makes sense. Regards. --Codrin.B (talk) 02:09, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Dacians[edit]

Ciao Andrea. I'm finally back to Wikipedia. I see that your article on the reconstructed Dacian words is coming along nicely. But you only added 6 or 7 words in the table and already reached the letter "k". Are you going to show just ~20 words? This won't add much weight to your theory that Dacian was a Baltic language. I'm sure Duridanov had a longer list of words and cognates.

I was wondering, has anyone tried to make a list of ancient Dacian toponyms which are simillar to modern Baltic place names? Andrei nacu (talk) 14:32, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Ciao, amico. I thought you were off for more than a month? You're right, Duridanov's list is around 100 words. So I have a long way to go! (although many are different words for swamps, rivers and lakes - I guess the Danube basin at the time was pretty waterlogged) . As for Dacian/Baltic toponym-cognates, those are already on the table (can you not see the column "cognate placenames"? EraNavigator (talk) 21:22, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Opportunity to comment on Batavia[edit]

There is a discussion starting up at Talk:Batavia (disambiguation), that may be of interest to you. The subject is technically a page move discussion, but the purpose of the discussion is to decide where Batavia should redirect. Until earlier today, Batavia redirected to History of Jakarta, but during this discussion, it is redirecting to Batavia (disambiguation). Your comments and suggestions are welcome.

Thanks for your help. HuskyHuskie (talk) 22:42, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

You are receiving this because you are one of the principal editors of one of the articles that is linked to Batavia (disambiguation). This notice is being posted to all of the top three editors of each of these articles (in terms of total edits), with the following exceptions:

  • editors who are blocked
  • anonymous IP editors
  • editors who, despite ranking in the top three of edits to an article, have only a single edit to said article

This is an attempt to be a neutrally-phrased posting in keeping with the principles of WP:CANVASS. If you find anything in the wording or the manner posted to be a violation of that guideline, please notify me at my talk page.

disruptive editing[edit]

If you keep on removing tags which were added after talk page discussions (e.g. in Costoboci the full citation tags on Batty or other citation needed tags) or you remove sourced valid content which runs contrary to your own theories (as the Onomastics section where the Dacian origin of the Costobocan names is supported by scholarship), I will have you reported for disruptive editing and ask you to be blocked from editing certain articles/topics. Don't make me show others some of your editing patterns. Daizus (talk) 01:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Maps[edit]

Hi,

Have you found the time to scan some of the maps from the Barrington Atlas? I am eager to start working on a new map of Roman Dacia and the surrounding regions. I also want to make another map of the Roman and Germanic walls and fortifications built on the territory of modern Romania, such as the Brazda lui Novac, The Devil's Dykes or the Greuthungi Wall. Andrei nacu (talk) 00:20, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Can I give you a friendly advice? Maybe it would be better to discontinue your edit war with Daizus and concentrate on non-Romanian historical topics for a while. I see that Daizus is holding his ground fiercly in the debate concerning the Costobocae.
I for myself have stopped focusing on Ancient history and will abandon Romanian historical topics altogether after I'll upload the above-mentioned maps. From now on I intend to contribute only to topics dealing with contemporary issues and events. I'm sick of having to come across the same crap about age-old "indigenous Dacians/Romanians" on so many Romanian history articles! Andrei nacu (talk) 07:24, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


I'm sorry Andrea. In this case I must apologize. But I thought we all agreed to change the linguistic affiliation of the Dacians. I don't want any more pointless edit wars. Even Hxseek, Dahn or Agamemnus agreed that the best way was to mark the Dacians, Costoboci and Carpi as uncertain. Moreover, I am not completely convinced of the validity of the "Baltic connection" thesis. I'm afraid we'll just have to wait until more relevant material will be published regarding the Dacian/Thracian language and varieties.
And I also thought you were interested in assisting me for the creation of an updated version of the Roman Dacia map. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.
No, I don't think I'll be coming to England any time soon. Right now I'm busy with my studies and I have started a long-term collaboration with a preeminent Romanian historian. I'll be working for my very first historical atlas this autumn and the following year.
I'm not sure what to say regarding your scenario. There are many historians who have given some hints in this direction, Florin Curta for example, but I think it will take at lest one decade until someone will come with a soundly argued theory regarding the Vlach migrations and the medieval Romanianization of Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia. My personal opinion is that the overwhelming majority of modern Romanians (maybe even around 80%) are the descendants of Romania's non-Vlach medieval populations such as the Slavs, Bulgars, Cumans, Pechenegs, Magyars or Saxons. And in the case of Britain, if it were not for the Hundred Years War, I think Anglo-Norman would have completely replaced English as the dominant language.
What about you? Apart from your study of Romanian toponyms, what else do you plan to do in the future?
P.S. By the way, the Roman Empire map is not completed yet. I'm still waiting for more material and references regarding the routes of the main Roman highways.
Auguri,
tuo Andrei
Andrei nacu (talk) 9:22, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
The name of the historian is Viorel Achim. He is an expert in the history of Romania during WWII and the history of the national minorities of Romania. We are going to make a historical atlas of Transnistria under Romanian administration, covering the period between 1941-44.
No, I haven't dropped the idea for a new map of Roman Dacia. I have already completed most of the physical backgroud and now I am gathering more references for the precise location of the provincial settlements and Roman forts.
What a twisted way of thinking you have Andrea :) Months ago you were telling me about the benefits of contributing to Wikipedia and the publicity you can gain by posting our work here.
I think you're exaggerating by labeling Daizus as a "nationalist bigot". He's far from being such a nuisance. Have you witnessed the recent feud beteween Daizus and Codrinb on the Capidava talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Capidava ? From my point of view, Daizus, unlike Codrin (who's the real bigot around here!) has been fairly balanced regarding the historical issues we are debating.
Mmmm. I would rather keep the Daci 'Dacian' and the Carpi and Costoboci both as 'Uncertain'. I'll proceed to make the appropriate changes. I don't think evidence is strong enough to label the Costoboci as Sarmatian (Iranic). Maybe Pliny the Elder was only referring to the lifestyle and condition of the Costoboci as being Sarmatian. The Costoboci could have very well been the steppe North Thracians, while the Dacians were the mountain North Thracians.
I agree with you that medieval Romania was not occupied in significant numbers by a Romance-speaking population, but on the other hand there is not enough evdence to support the massive presence of proto-Romanians south of the Danube. Here too toponyms suggest that the Slavs simply overwhelmed the Romanized Thraco-Illyrians and gave new Slavic names to most of the geographic features. I would rather say that the few Vlachs who inhabited the region of the Iron Gates on both sides of the Danube merely benefited from the Bulgarian decline and the growing Hungarian dominance in the 10-14 centuries and greatly increased their political sphere of action.
Andrei nacu (talk) 12:48, 21 April 2011 (UTC)


Hi fellas, its been a while. What you guys been working on lately ? Yes, I have to say Dazius is very knowledgable. Andrei - there was no overhwelming Slav invasions - neither north nor south of the Danube. What happened was a change in language associated with the collapse of Roman rule in the Balkans. Pockets of Romance speakers obviously survived here and there - and that is what gave you your Romanians and Balkan Vlachs. There was by and large population continuity, merely the social and political 'landcape' changed. It is pretty much the same with Anglo-Saxon England, the same with the Mycenaean collapse, etc Slovenski Volk (talk) 06:19, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Hah. Of course I don't consider Daizus to be a "wonderful person". I haven't forgotten his (and Codrin's) bullying of my Roman Empire map. But still, I appreciate that he didn't back Codrin when the Daco-maniac buffoon reported me to the admins.
Even if I support you regarding the linguistic classification of the Carpi, I think there is a possibility that the Costoboci could have been Dacian/Thracian. Things are more blurry for the Costoboci and I certainly wouldn't throw myself to claim they were almost without doubt Iranic. I think a more balanced approach is more suited, at least in their case.
My feeling is that for nationalistic reasons, most Bulgarian historians prefer to see the South Thracians as distinct from the Dacians and other North Thracians. So in this respect I don't give too much credit to Georgiev or Duridanov. Few historians outside Bulgaria would state that the Dacians and Thracians formed separate ethno-linguistic groups. In Romania I don't know any established historian who backs Georgiev's theory.
@Slovenski Volk. I think it's quite provocative to say that only languages changed and that South Slavs or Romanians are basically the descendants of those who inhabited the Balkans before the Roman takeover. I'm not convinced of this theory, even though genetic evidence might be interpreted to support it. I don't even think that Albanians are Illyrians who miraculously escaped Romanization after more that 600 years of Imperial rule. At best, the Albanians might descend from a barbarian tribe that entered the Empire in the late 4th century or during the 5th century.
To be honest, I don't care if the Vlachs/Romanians came from Alaska or from Mars, it's just that I dislike when nationalist historians (in Europe or elsewhere) try to portray their own nation/ethnic group as being the oldest indigenous (God, how I hate this word!) people in a given place.
Happy Easter Slovenski Volk and Buona Pasqua Andrea!
Andrei nacu (talk) 18:33, 23 April 2011 (UTC)


Of course there are migrations, there always have been; but I'd think that today's Romanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks are mostly descended from the Neolithic/ Copper Age peoples of the Vinca/ Stercevo/ Ezero/ etc complexes. For 'Vlachs - see a good book by Tom Winniforth Greeks Old and New. Regards ! Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Dacian names[edit]

Your note on Dacian names is ill-informed. Most of those names come from Egyptian ostraca and inscriptions and they are not mentioned in Dacian auxiliary units.

Several Dacians are explicitely called that way:

  • AÉ 1996, 1647: Dida Damanai filius, nationis Daqus, eques alae Vocontiorum
  • O. Krok. I 98, an ostracon dated in 109 from Δεκιναις to Καικεισα (written as Καιγιζα on other ostraca). Δεκιναις also salutes Ζουτουλα and Πουριδουρ and then he says he heard the praefectus Servius Suplicius Similis had issued the order that all Dacians (πάντες οἱ Δάκες) should be gathered in Alexandria.

And of course, on the Roman military diploma:

  • CIL XVI 13: Tutio Buti f(ilius) Dacus
  • Archaeologia Bulgarica 10 (2), 2006, 37–46: Zurazis Decebali f(ilius), Dacus
  • RMD 203: Dernaius Derdipili f(ilius) Dacus
  • RMD 239: ex equite [---]sae Natusis f(ilio) Daco
  • RMD 240: ex pedite Itaxae Stamillae f(ilio) Daco
  • RMD 398: ex [ped]it[e] Damanaeo S[---]ri f(ilio) Daco
  • RMD 184: ex equite Thiopo Rolae fil(io) Daco
  • RMD 293: ex equite Thiae Timarchi f(ilio) Daco
  • RMD 294: ex equite Sisceo Aptasae fil(io) Daco
  • RMD 274: [ex] pedit(e) [--- ---]acissae f(ilio) Daco
  • RGZM 34: ex gregale Pueriburi Dabonis f(ilio), Daco
  • AÉ 2004, 1911: ex pedit(e) Surodago Surpogissi f(ilio), Daco
  • Chiron 36, 2006, 221–230: ex pedite [M(arco) Ulpio] Zordamusi f(ilio) Canuleio, Daco

Having such lists with secure Dacian names, we can find others. For example:

  • AÉ 2005, 1724: ex pedite Diurdano Damanaei f(ilio), [Daco], et Zispier Zurosi fil(iae) uxori eius, [Dacae?], et Decibalo f(ilio) e[ius], et Dossacho f(ilio) e[ius], et Comadici f(ilio) e[ius], et Davappier fil(iae) e[ius], et Daeppier fil(iae) e[ius].

We know that Decibalus and Damaneus are Dacian names (the latter cf. AÉ 1996, 1647 and RMD 398). So the editors of the inscription concluded Diurdanus is also a Dacian.

It should be noted that these Dacian soldiers were not recruited in Dacian auxiliary units. Thia Timarchi was recruited in cohors II Gallorum veterana, Thiopus Rolae in cohors VII Thracum, Damanaeus S[---]ri in cohors V Delmatarum c.R., Diurdanus Damanaei in cohors I Flavia Musulamiorum, Itaxa Stamillae in cohors II Lingonum, etc. Daizus (talk) 17:19, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

My apologies. I was not aware that the names were securely Dacian. I'll remove the note. But what about Dardanus? Or is that just a corrupt version of Diurdanus? EraNavigator (talk) 08:00, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

PS: is Petipor securely Dacian? My understanding is that the name-suffix -por is distinctly Thracian.EraNavigator (talk) 08:53, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Dardanos shows in a list of Dacian names, but its "Dacianess" is doubtful. See Dana 2003, p. 175 on Dardanos:
Nom recontré au Mons Claudianus: O. Claud. II 403, patronyme d'un Diernaios, Διερναιος Δαρδάν(ου), dans une liste de noms daces. Un autre, à Maximianon (O. Max. inv. 1298, Δαρδανος), dans une liste de noms thraces, grecs et latins, pourrait n'être ni dace ni thrace. De plus, c'est un nom populaire en Asie Mineure (et comme noms d'un héros), en Dardanie, et comme nom d'esclave (nom mythologique). On peut même songer à une hellénisation, au Mons Claudianus, du nom dace Diourdanos. Sinon, on peut y reconnaître un thème dard- suffixé (Dard-anos, cf. Diourd-anos), que l'on recontre dans le nom du soldat Dardi-ola aussi. En somme, nom problématique, mais le nom du fils est dace.
For Petipor there's some evidence, but not very solid. Here's the comment on this name, idem. p. 179:
Nom (O. Claud. inv. 3027, Πητιπορ) où l'on recontre le thème final -por; pour la première partie, voir un soldat Petitor Pirobori (CIL XIII 8188, à Cologne), et le people des Dacopetoporiani (TP 8.3/4), que Tomaschek a raison de corriger en Daci Petoporiani).
Petitor Pirobori has no origin on the inscription (Petitor Pirobori (filius), mil(es) coh(ortis) II Var(cianorum)), he was assumed to be Dacian because of his patronym, cf. the Dacian placename Piroboridava (Ptol., Geogr. III.10.8). Daizus (talk) 15:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether in CIL XIII.8188, petitor is not a name at all, but simply the Latin word for supplicant, which is often found on votive inscriptions. So the translation should read: "in the name of the (god) Herclintus, the supplicant Pirobori, soldier of cohors etc ... fulfilled his vow" EraNavigator (talk) 15:59, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
I've just searched the Clauss Slaby database and I didn't find petitor in votive contexts. Petitor mil could be petitor mil(itiae), but it doesn't seem to be the case here. Also it's a question of grammar. Theoretically Pirobori could be a name just like that, a barbarian name ending in -i, unadapted to Latin morphology. However it seems more likely we have here a genitive of Piroborus, thus a patronym, and in this case Petitor is the name of the soldier. Daizus (talk) 17:26, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
It seems that, in a military context, petitor militiae or just petitor ("seeker") meant a recruiting-sergeant. There is another example of petitor on its own in CIL VI.3548: M. Aurelius Emeritus veteranus miles petitor. This could be the case here. EraNavigator (talk) 06:03, 14 May 2011 (UTC) Also, if Pirobori was the name of "Petitor's" father, it would normally be followed by filius or f.
In some cases filius is omitted. Examples:
  • CIL III 14214,14: Scoris Mucapori
  • CIL XIII 7292 = 11941: Aulu[p]or Aulusa[ni] mil(es) leg(ionis) XXII P(rimigeniae) P(iae) F(idelis)
  • IDR III.1 163: Brisanus Aulusani mil(es) co[h(ortis) I Vind(elicorum?) Daizus (talk) 08:31, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
OK, fair point. But I remain unconvinced that petitor is a personal name here, and that, even if it is, that it is a mis-spelling of Petipor. So far, I have found no hard evidence that the -por name-suffix was used in Dacian, as well as Thracian, personal names. Can you comment on this? EraNavigator (talk) 13:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Petitor is presented as a distinct Peti- name.
Some -por names that can be Dacian:
  • O. Claud. inv. 3027, Πητιπορ. Petipor cf. *Daci Petoporiani and Peti- also cf. Petitor (see above)
  • O. Claud. II, 404: Νατοπορ Θιαπο(..) = Natopor son of Thiapo(r?). There are many Dacian names in Thia- (see also list above), for Nato- see also Natusis on RMD 239. R
  • RMD V 368: e[x ---] Flavio Steri[ssae? f(ilio) ---, Daco], et Nattopori f(ilio) [eius, et --- f(ilio)/fil(iae) eius], et Duccidava[e fil(iae) eius]. For Nattopor see O. Claud. II, 404. For Duccidava see Davappier on AÉ 2005, 1724. For Sterissa see CIL VI, 16903: Diurpaneus qui Euprepes Sterissae f(ilius) Dacus Daizus (talk) 18:04, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Right. This is strong evidence that the -por name-suffix did exist in Dacian onomastics in the Roman era, especially RMD V.368. However, I wonder whether this was a Thracian import into the Dacian zone. The Roman conquest entailed the large-scale influx of Thracian soldiers and dependents into Dacia. These would have married locals and passed on Thracian names to their descendants. A fusion of Thracian and Dacian onomastics would have resulted. Do you know of any pre-Roman-era Dacian names that end in -por? EraNavigator (talk) 06:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC) (My point here is that while Dacian and Thracians names show many similarities in the Roman era, their pre-Roman onomastics appear quite different).
PS Why don't you add the various names above to List of Dacian names? If there really are 1150 Dacian personal names and 900 placenames, then this article has a long way to go!
PPS The conventional abbreviation of Annee Epigraphique is AE without an accent. (In French, accents are not required with capital letters) EraNavigator (talk) 06:47, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
PPPS Daizus, do you live in England? Your English seems quasi-native quality
  • I'm living in Romania, thanks.
  • RMD V 368 was issued in late 127 somewhere in Africa. Flavius, the son of Sterissa, was recruited most probably in 102, after the first Dacian war.
  • I will not edit Dacia-related topics for a while, because I'm alone and fighting wind-mills is no fun. You have just added a significant amount of original research in Costoboci (your own interpretations on Ammianus, Dio, Tacitus and dating CIL VI 1801). If you want to use Wikipedia articles to promote your own views and opinions, then fine, do it - it seems I'm the only one believing otherwise. Daizus (talk) 19:13, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
If your English was learnt at school, it's amazingly good. You really have never lived or studied in an English-speaking country?
Thanks for the info on Dacian names. Although it's not certain, it does look likely that the -por suffix was used by the Dacians as well as the Thracians
My aim is not to promote my own views, but to promote objectivity in historical analysis. On a personal level, I couldn't care less if the Costoboci/Carpi were Dacians or not, or whether Latin-speakers survived the Roman withdrawal. What does interest me is finding out the truth about the past.The problem in Dacian studies is that the Paradigm (if I can use that word) is so strongly entrenched and all-pervasive that it has almost become a religion - with those few authors who have the temerity to challenge it are, like medieval heretics, burnt at the stake. Also, Romanian scholars, who are the most knowledgeable about the archaeological evidence (having excavated it), were until 1989 forced to subscribe to the Orthodoxy by the nationalist-communist regime (if they wanted to keep their academic posts). Things are now changing, but it takes a long time to get rid of the prejudices of a religion. The overall consequence of this is that Dacian studies have been for a long time based on the reverse of the Scientific Method. The latter requires first the discovery, collection and analysis of the data - then the construction of theories to explain the results. Paradigmers operate in the opposite sequence: they start with a theory and then look for evidence to support it. The inevitable consequence of this approach is that favourable evidence is given exaggerated significance and unfavourable evidence is ignored (or even suppressed). And, of course, alternative theories that might better explain the evidence are not given serious consideration.
Responding to your criticism you made of my latest posts on Costoboci:
  1. Ammianus does state that the region where he locates the Costobocae would take a fast traveler 15 days to cross. Danube-Dniester simply does not fit this description. The standard daily march for a Roman army was 20 miles. So a legionary, on foot and carrying 30kg of equipment, could cover the distance in 5 days. A fast traveler, on horseback and unencumbered by armour and weapons, could easily cover it in 3 days. Also can Ammianus be referring to just Bessarabia when he states that this region contains "the European Alans, Costobocae and innumerable Scythian tribes"? Even you must have found Danube-Dniester a dubious match for Ammianus' definition when you looked at this. Actually, I did come across a modern authority that supports Danube-Dnieper and so this is not OR. Unfortunately, I didn't make a note of it, but I will look it up on my next visit to the library. EraNavigator (talk) 09:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
  2. Dio: if you read Dio LXXII.12, you will see that I have simply written what Dio says (or implies).
  3. Tacitus: the location of the Vandals is shown as SW Poland in the map accompanying the 1969 Penguin translation (the translation was by a Cambridge professor.
  4. CIL VI.1801: it is a fact that this inscription contains no datable feature: it could date from anytime during the Principate. Thus placing it ca. 170 is pure speculation. Also, no hint is given as to why Pieporus' family lived in Rome. As hostages is a strong possibility, but not the only one. He could, for example, have been a pro-Roman king ousted by an anti-Roman faction and forced to take refuge in Rome (this happened frequently among client-kings e.g. Armenia). Or he could simply have wanted his children to be educated at Rome. Ironically, they are least likely to have been hostages around 170! It seems implausible that Pieporus would launch an invasion of the empire with his family sitting as hostages in Rome, knowing that they would immediately be executed in retaliation. The simple fact is that we know nothing about Pieporus: his reign dates, whether he was the sole king of the Costoboci or one of several etc etc. EraNavigator (talk) 11:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Overall, I have been surprised by your negative reaction to my contributions to the Dacian articles. I expected that people with a serious interest in historical research like yourself would be delighted that someone was trying to move the arguments forward from the stale parameters of Daco-Roman continuity by asking new questions such as what was the relationship between the sedentary and nomadic communities in Moldavia. Which leads me to ask you a final question: do you personally believe in Daco-Roman continuity? EraNavigator (talk) 17:07, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

It's just the English I have after some years of second-language use, thank you again :)
As for your reply, I don't think you understand my point. It has nothing to do with Romanian scholarship during the Communist years (in my own edits I quoted Bichir as a sole source only for a neutral description of the material culture, with no "ethnic attributes"). We can't promote our own theories based on primary sources, nor can we evaluate the quality of secondary sources without quoting other secondary sources. The policies defined in WP:NOR are:
  • Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person, with access to the source but without specialist knowledge, will be able to verify are supported by the source. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so.
  • Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from secondary sources. Articles may make analytic or evaluative claims only if these have been published by a reliable secondary source. (emphasis mine)
Since you're not quoting any secondary sources in your edits, but only analyze and evaluate various claims based on primary sources and your own judgements, I guess it's fair to say you promote your own views and theories. We can't speak of "objectivity in historical analysis" being divorced from the available scholarship.
As for my reaction, I've been also critical of edits by CodrinB, Boldwin and others when they used primary sources directly, or they misused secondary sources. I don't want to edit anymore on these topics because there's no other active editor sharing my concern about reflecting the scholarly consensus. I am really bored of explaining and reverting over and over. We can't make arguments based on the text of Ammianus directly! But don't worry, you can now edit in any way you want, I will not bother you, at least not until some others will get involved.
Since you asked, my own belief is that Romanian language was formed from the Latin language spoken in Dacia Mediterranea, Dacia Ripensis and Dardania (south of Danube). North of Danube probably there were some pockets of Latin/Romance speakers which sooner or later were assimilated by other non-Romance or Romance speakers. However that's entirely irrelevant in articles like the one on Costoboci.
I will reply later on each of the four points. Daizus (talk) 22:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
1. It's a fact that the overwhelming majority of scholars located this tribe north or north-east of Roman Dacia (I can't understand why did you change "mainstream" to "a substantial body"). For Ammianus I used this book (and see also this essay on his imprecise knowledge - his main source was apparently this). On page 138, in a comment on Europaei sunt Halani et Costobocae , we can read: "Although the Costobocae are mentioned in several ancient sources [...] hardly anything is known about them. They should probably be located to the north-east of Roman Dacia." Why would these scholars claim such a thing? Well, it's quite simple, Ammianus follows the shores in anti-clockwise order. The sequence is (the Loeb edition):
22.8.37: Ammianus is following the northern shores from east to west: "we shall now follow as far as the left side of the Thracian Bosporus, as the order demands"
22.8.40: the river Borysthenes (Dnieper) and "its well-wooded banks"
22.8.41: the river Tyras (Dniester)
22.8.42: the "middle space of the bow" inhabited by European Halani, Costobocae, and countless Scythian tribes
22.8.43: the Peuce island (in Danube delta) and the Greek colonies on the western shores: Histros, Tomi, etc.
Ammianus never saw and knew the actual Black Sea (he believed the Maeotian lake was in the east!) and his description has many factual errors. If we choose to trust Ammianus' geography, then his Costoboci are placed in the lands between the ancient rivers Tyras and Istros. And certainly he referred to the same Costoboci because a) we know no others and b) Ammianus drew from earlier accounts.
Even if we'd ignore all what Ammianus writes but his travel times, how would you know it's the distance between Danube and Dnieper and not Danube and the Southern Bug (the ancient Hypanis)? This question is moot, the entire passage is original research anyway. If you can quote a secondary source, do it, but I doubt it supports everything you added in that paragraph (by the way arcus means here "bow", not "arc").
2. The material from Dio is factual, but is original research (and frankly a good part of it also irrelevant, as this is not an article about Vandal history)
Bichir supports this interpretation of Dio. How can events which led to the subjugation and political oblivion of the Carpathian Costoboci be irrelevant? EraNavigator (talk) 21:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
You can quote Bichir if anything. However most of the new material from Dio concerns the history of the Vandals after the events. Daizus (talk) 15:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
3. Tacitus certainly didn't place Vandals in SW Poland, because there was no Poland in ancient times. I've just read Germania, Tacitus doesn't mention Vandals at all, but other tribes (equated by some scholars with the Vandals). The location of Vandals in SW Poland is also contested by some scholars (e.g. Walter Goffart, Guy Halsall). And see also 2.
Tacitus mentions the Vandals in Chapter 2 of Germania, using the then current variant Vandilii: in Chapter 43 he describes the Lugii, then a widely used alternative name for Vandilii. If you look at the (authoritative) Roman Empire 125 map, you will see the Lugii (Vandilii) located between the upper Oder and Vistula rivers i.e. SW Poland. EraNavigator (talk) 18:58, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Tacitus did not equate Vandilii with Lugii, and did not mention the Hasdings among the Lugian tribes. How's that relevant for the short mention of Hasdings in our article? Some authors speculated about Vandals and Lugii or about Vandals and Vandilii, but there's no evidence whatsoever these groups were related or the same. As Walter Goffart put it, the early Vandal migration and history was invented "out of scraps of Tacitus, Pliny and Ptolemy, mixed with abusively interpreted archaeology" by "a string of energetic, resourceful, and voluble scholars". Daizus (talk) 19:15, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
That sounds like a good description of how the Geto-Daco-Roman continuity paradigm was constructed! Well, it's true that reconstructions of the ethnography of the barbaricum rely on scraps from ancient geographers, because that is all the evidence available. Those scraps, however, add up to a reasonable case that the Vandilii and Lugii overlapped and that they inhabited SW Poland in Tacitus time and that they were the forebears of the Vandals who later moved SE and also invaded the Roman empire in the 5th C. According to Pliny, the Vandilii were one of 5 broad sub-divisions of the German nation, as were the Suebi. Pliny also states that the Vandilii included the Burgundians, whereas Tacitus does not include the Burgundiones in the Lugii confederation. This implies that the Vandilii were a broader group than the Lugii. Ptolemy places the Silingae, a tribe that later emerged as part of the Vandals, South of the Burgundians, between the upper Else and Vistula rivers. Since this where the Lugii were located, it has been deduced that the Lugii and Vandals were the same group.
But it's not, it's a description of "how the Germanic continuity paradigm was constructed!" :) That's quite strange about your position - you're quick to dismiss tribes like Costoboci were Dacians, but ready to accept Lugii or other tribes were Germanic or even Vandalic, based on no or little evidence. Moreover in your recent edits your replaced "tribe" with "people", re-creating romantic/nationalistic migration sagas. Tacitus mentions both Vandilii and Lugii, but no relation between them. Read also this. Daizus (talk) 14:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
I accept that the Lugii were Germanic because Tacitus and Pliny say they were. No surviving ancient author says the Costoboci were Dacians.EraNavigator (talk) 16:31, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Pliny did not mention Lugii at all. Tacitus mentioned both Vandilii and Lugii, but he did not write of Lugii as Vandilii nor vice-versa. As for his "Germans", he also wrote the Veneti "are however to be rather referred to the German race", but on this map you insisted to have the Veneti as "Balto-Slavic". Apparently you accept his views only when they fit into your "paradigm".
The actual problem in your edits is that you claim the Hasdings mentioned by Dio are Vandals (or Lugians). But Dio did not write such a thing. It's a modern hypothesis based on no contemporary evidence. However you accept it with no doubts, without calling it speculative, without demanding evidence. Daizus (talk) 17:31, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
4. The inscriptions can be dated also considering paleographic and even linguistic features. I'm not sure if this is the case here. However the only history we know of this tribe and Rome is the one from the 170s. Dating the inscriptions in any other period requires additional evidence. PIR gives a post-170 dating (and so do all the other sources from that footnote). With no secondary source doubting that dating, your edit is original research. As for your scenario presented here, it's not at all implausible Pieporus launched an invasion in 170-171, and his family was sent to Rome in 171-172. Daizus (talk) 11:14, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, but if you claim that CIL VI.1801 is related to the events of 170-2, then you must prove it: it is not for me to prove the contrary. Saying that, since the events of 170-2 are the only Costoboci history which survives, therefore this inscription must relate to them, is a total non sequitur. Clearly, the Costoboci had a history before 170, even if we don't know about it. That lack of knowledge is hardly surprising, if you consider that no reliable and detailed contemporary chronicle survives for the period between AD 70, when Tacitus' history breaks off, and 353, when Ammianus' extant history begins. It is quite possible that the Costoboci had a long and complex history of relations with Rome. A hint of this is found in the Gratus inscription, where the Costoboci invaders of 170 are described as rebelles, implying some kind of client-state relationship.
You say inscriptions can be dated by linguistic/paleographic analysis. So they can, in some cases, but only imprecisely, to within a century, at best. And I have seen no evidence that this is feasible in this case, or that it has actually been done. Because of the deep conservatism of the Romans regarding forms and rituals, most imperial-era inscriptions are absolutely undatable and can date anywhere between Augustus and Diocletian. I believe this is the case here. If you can prove otherwise, please let me know. The dating favoured by PIR and the other authors is only valid if it's based on hard evidence.
Your alternative scenario is not convincing: if Pieporus gave hostages after the invasion, it implies that he had agreed a peace with the Romans. But Clemens' actions show that hostilities were still very much continuing. If Pieporus was involved in the events of 170-2, it is more likely that he was a pro-Roman king who was overthrown by an anti-Roman faction who wanted to exploit Marcus Aurelius' difficulties in order to raid the empire. In this case, the status of his family in Rome was not as hostages, but as refugees. But this is all speculation. My point is that we cannot link Pieporus to 170-2 on the available evidence. EraNavigator (talk) 23:56, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
I don't have to prove anything to you, only that my edits are properly sourced. And they are. "However, this is speculative, as the Pieporus inscription is not datable " is your own view, an original research. "The dating favoured by PIR and the other authors" is valid because it is published in reliable, mainstream, un-controversial secondary sources. Dessau (ILS 854) and other editors and commentators also dated it soon after 170.
Many Roman inscriptions (in Latin or Greek) can be often dated to one-two centuries, several decades or some regnal years (example). "[M]ost imperial-era inscriptions are absolutely undatable and can date anywhere between Augustus and Diocletian" is, no offense, a statement based on lack of competence and ignorance. The "deep conservatism of the Romans regarding forms and rituals" is rather a Hollywood-inspired stereotype.
Costoboci may well had a history before 170, but there's no evidence whatsoever their history involved Rome, thus it's groundless to suggest this inscription should date from another period (your suggestion is a non sequitur if anything). The argument concerning the lack of "reliable and detailed contemporary chronicles" is flawed. Our most reliable sources on Costoboci are epigraphic, not literary, and moreover, most Roman historians are not reliable chroniclers by modern standards (for Ammianus' imprecise knowledge see above). The scenarios considering different factions or competing kings are likewise speculative - there's not a shred of evidence for any of these. In the inscription of L. Iulius Vehilius Gratus Iulianus, the insurgents (rebelles) are those from Achaia, Macedonia and Hispania, not the Costoboci outside the empire - thus this is no evidence for a client state (the conflicts within the frontiers of the empire are rebellious by definition). All these alternative hypotheses are much more speculative than this most parsimonious account, considering the only positive evidence we have: that the inscription may be related to the events in the 170s. In other words, what those scholars suggested it's the least speculative hypothesis.
As for your last objection, you did not read Dio carefully: Clemens' actions cannot be considered evidence for ongoing hostilities. Maybe all he wanted was to get rid of some unreliable neighbours. There's no evidence of open conflict between Romans and Costoboci at the time of the Hasding attack. With all that, Pieporus' family could have been sent to Rome before the Roman-Hasding negotiations. There's no need to invent unattested factions and/or kings. Daizus (talk) 15:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Much of the above follows the topsy-turvy logic of Alice in Wonderland. I was always taught that it was the proponent of a hypothesis who was responsible for proving it. You have yet to produce a shred of evidence that Pieporus was involved in 170-2. You denounce my ignorance on inscriptions and then produce text supporting exactly what I said: that those inscriptions that do not contain datable features, such as tribunicia protestas years or consulships, can in some cases be dated by stylistic analysis: but only to the "nearest century, at best". In the case of the Pieporus inscription, I doubt that it can be dated any more accurately than late 1st/2nd/early 3rd centuries. If there is a style analysis that narrows the date down further than this, please tell me about it. But let's assume that it can be dated securely as 2nd-century. That still
I have not put forward this hypothesis, therefore I don't have to prove it. You replied and suggested several competing hypotheses but you have proven none. It's important however this dating is supported by lots of scholars and so far, doubted by none. If you seek proofs, then read the bibliography.
I don't think you bothered to read the text on dating inscriptions. There are two inscriptions discussed in that example, one which was dated "probably under Hadrian, or very soon after" but not excluding "the reign of Antoninus Pius", and the other one "to the end of the quarter or the second century (ca. AD 175), and perhaps even to a date as late as the very first years of the third century" but favoring "a date as early". In both cases the arguments are based on the style and the words used, not on TP or consulship years. Daizus (talk) 22:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
  1. You have completely misread CIL VI.41271 (the Gratus inscription). I assumed that like me, you were qualified in Latin, wrongly evidently. The phrase praeposito vexillationibus per Achaiam et Macedoniam et in Hispanias adversus Castabocas et Mauros rebelles: rebelles here agrees with, and refers to, the Castabocas and Mauros. Achaea/Macedonia and Spain is where he fought them, respectively. The Mauri raiders had evidently succeeded in crossing the Strait of Gibraltar and were pillaging Spain. The Costoboci, as we know, were marauding in Greece and Macedonia. Rebellis here is used in the sense of "treaty-breaker", rather than meaning an internal dissident. (This is not just my interpretation, it is also in CAH XI).
I have read the inscription just fine. You should read more carefully. I said the rebelles are "those from Achaia, Macedonia and Hispania", which are the Costoboci and Mauri devastating those provinces. Here the "rebelles" are the barbarians fighting on Roman soil, threatening the Roman provinces, it's about no "treaty-breakers" (which is just your interpretation, there's no such thing in CAH XI )
As for your qualifications in Latin, no offense, you have none. I haven't forgot your mis-translation of Costobocae gentesque Scytharum innumerae ;) Daizus (talk) 17:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Objectively, you are wrong. I hold an Advanced Level Certificate (grade A plus Distinction) in Latin. The phrase you just mentioned could be seen as a "poetic" elision, meaning: "innumerable. Costobocan and Scythian tribes". But I don't expect you to grasp the finer nuances of the language.
Shame on the institution awarding you the certificate! As for your new "interpretation", maybe you should start learning Latin before translating :) But I admit you have progressed in the past few months, at least you learned the enclitic -que. Daizus (talk) 22:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
  1. You are certainly right that historians of the Principate rely heavily on inscriptions. But that's precisely because the literary sources are missing. Inscriptions can in no way substitute for narrative chronicles. In terms of narrative history, a single paragraph of Tacitus is worth a thousand inscriptions.
Inscriptions are often better than narrative chronicles. The former are facts, the latter are literature. Tacitus is often confused about geography and ethnography, and most of his descriptions worth next to nothing, maybe to reveal the Roman stereotypes. Daizus (talk) 22:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

A couple of examples: Boudicca's revolt in Britain. If we only had inscriptions, we would know nothing of this important event - which by the way exposes the nonsensical nature of your argument that the Costoboci cannot have had relations with Rome before 170 because we don't know of any. (2) Trajan's Conquest of Dacia: the info we have about this epic event is pathetically weak, because of the loss of accounts by Dio, Ammianus and Trajan's own memoirs of the campaigns. What little we do know mainly comes from the "summary of the summary" of Dio's account. Instead, historians are left to speculate on what the friezes on the Column might imply. If we had the lost accounts, I very much doubt that we would be arguing about whether the Costoboci were Dacians or not: we would know. We might even be able to establish whether they spoke a Baltic language! (My own opinion is that the Sarmatian horsemen shown fighting the Romans on the Column were Costoboci allied with Decebal).

Please provide evidence of relations between Costoboci and Rome before 170. Any evidence. Maybe you also believe the Martians landed and fought the Romans before 170, but alas, with no comprehensive narrative history we have no mentions of this "fact".
There are many details of Trajan's conquest of Dacia we know from inscriptions that no literary sources could cover: we know Trajan left Rome in March 101, we know the legions and the auxiliary units, we know some of their routes, we know the castra they built, we know the name of the one who brought Decebalus' head to Trajan's camp at Ranisstorum, etc. Neither Dio, nor Ammianus were contemporary with the event, and their later and confused accounts wouldn't make so much difference. We would probably have more episodes with messages on mushrooms, fun to tell, but explaining little. Trajan probably left a more detailed account, we will never know. But these accounts had little information on Dacians (much like Caesar's De Bello Gallico is full of stereotypes), and probably nothing on Costoboci.
I know your own opinion is that Costoboci are Sarmatians, that's what I kept telling you: you don't care about knowledge, but about your own theories. That's why you keep pushing Costoboci to the Dnieper. Daizus (talk) 22:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Try reconstructing the Conquest of Gaul from inscriptions: you could easily fit your data on the back of an envelope instead of the substantial book Caesar left. I'm amazed that you think our knowledge of the Dacian Wars is sufficient. The scale and duration of these wars (15 major battles are attested on the Column) should fill a large volume like Josephus' Jewish War. Instead all you have is a list of units, a few camps and the cartoonesque friezes on the Column (talk about stereotypes!). Oh, and the name of the guy who brought Decebal's head to Trajan.

I am well aware of the limitations of ancient authors (although some e.g. Tacitus, Ammianus are obviously far better than others e.g. Dio, Zosimus). Although they were not, in most cases, contemporary with their subject-matter, they did have access to official records, now lost. Inscriptions are generally more reliable (although these can contain lies and propaganda also). But the simple fact is that imperishable inscriptions (on stone, metal) will never be remotely sufficient to fill the gaps in the chronicles, despite continual new discoveries. The only hope of a quantum-leap in our knowledge of the history of the Principate is if the missing chronicles were found. The most likely place would be Egypt where papyrus can survive and fragments of ancient works are constantly turning up. But what is really needed are complete scrolls, and I guess those would only be found if archaeologists uncovered the intact private library of a wealthy Egyptian landowner's villa. Ideally it would also contain some lost geographical and ethnographic works. If you think of the millions of works that were lodged in the Library of Alexandria, what is left of the knowledge of the ancient world is pitiful.

Regarding the Costoboci, obviously I can't produce evidence of relations with Rome before 170.

I am now going to call this discussion closed. I have already discussed many of the points above with Anonymous and yourself exhaustively, both now and in the past, and we're just going round in circles. I have modified the Costoboci text to reflect those points you made which I think are valid.
But I want to move on to discuss a far more interesting subject: the origin of the Romanian language. I agree of course that it developed South of the Danube. But I would be much more specific: in my opinion, it developed in Dardania (Rep. Macedonia, more or less) and the Dardani were the first Romanian-speakers and the original Vlachs. The vulgar Latin spoken in the Danubian provinces must have resembled modern Italian/Spanish quite closely. But Romanian is divergent from that norm in many respects. It has all the hallmarks of a dialect that developed in a discrete area and then spread out in the Balkans.

Your Vlach hypothesis[edit]

I just saw what you wrote to Andrei. I agree totally. Vlachs were dispersed pastoralists and their families, merceneries, etc, who used a Greek and Slavic influenced former Roman trade language to communicate amongst themselves. Perhaps after fall of Bulgarian Empire, +/- with the help of Cumans, they established rule over a (former) Dacia which had virtually no established polities. They probably only switched definitively to Romanian in early modern period ! This is clear when one notes that many Romanian voidvodes had Slavic names, used Slavic liturgy and Slavic writing (including in the burial of the famous Count Draculja). They did this to create their own seperate identity from Slavic neighbours, and subsequent modern scholars have propagated this by 'proving' Daco-Roman-Romanian continuity when there is none objectively to be had. {And this is not a value judgement, this is typical of any country - eg Illyrian-Albanian theory, or that of my own place of birth - Macedonia. Still very prevalent in Balkan countries, whilst westerners have been able to 'deconstruct' their identities more objectively}. This explains why Vlachs only really appear in sources from 11th century, and "Romanians" in the ? 17th. See [1] Slovenski Volk (talk) 06:55, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

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Roman empire map[edit]

Ciao Andrea,

I have created a new version of the Roman Empire map in 125. If you have any suggestions please let me know before I upload it to Wiki Commons. I myself have some uncertainties regarding province boundaries and capitals. Here are some of them:

  • 1. The capital of Belgica. Was it Durocortorum or Aug. Treverorum in 125?
  • 2. Capitals for Creta et Cyrenaica (Gortyna or Cyrene?), Moesia Inferior (Oescus or Tomis?), Arabia (Petra or Bostra?), Lycia et Pamphilia (Mira or Patara?).
  • 3. On some maps I see there was a Numidia province as early as 117. I know Numidia was elevated to Roman province status during the reign of Septimius Severus.
  • 4. I'm not sure about the borders of the Bosporan Kingdom. I don't know if northern Crimea and the north shore of L. Maeotis were part of the kingdom.
  • 5. Similarly with Colchis. Was Abkhazia part of Colchis in 125?

I would like to read a good book regarding the administrative divisions of the Roman Empire, with some accurate maps if possible. Can you recommend me such a book?

I'm eager to hear from you.

Andrei

Andrei (talk) 19:00, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I have uploaded the map to Wikimedia today.
Roman Empire 125
Andrei (talk) 12:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
I received no feedback from you yet. Can you please tell me if the maps are OK?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Other_versions/Roman_Empire_125_map
Andrei (talk) 21:10, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
  • 1 & 2. I uploaded 2 map versions. You can see them here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Other_versions/Roman_Empire_125_map. I think we can remove the province boundaries on the physical map and keep them on the political map. In this case there might be enough room to place some road names.
  • 3. I don't agree on deleting roads. I saw similar scale maps with even more roads included. How about making the very important routes thicker?
  • 1B. Can you tell me what province borders were changed by Hadrian? I would prefer to keep them, at least on the political map. Additionally I could write something like: "province boundaries are approximate".
  • 2B. I made a mistake. I thought "Agri Decumates" can also be used as a name for the Roman limes in SW Germany.
  • I will make the other changes this evening. Thanks!
Andrei (talk) 11:05, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

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Germanic bodyguard[edit]

Hi EraNavigator. Please see my comments at the talkpage. --Bermicourt (talk) 21:02, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

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Roman Empire[edit]

Although I don't disagree with all your edits, I'm reverting them all and asking that you discuss these on the talk page first, per my edit summary request. Some of your changes are contrary to consensus. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:38, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

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Period division between late Roman army and east Roman army[edit]

Hi. I've been working in limitanei and palatini (Roman military) and occasionally checking up against the other Roman military articles. So I was rather surprised to see that late Roman army only goes to 395, with east Roman army following thereafter, and west Roman army missing. I am wondering where this period division comes from. At the very least, since it's an unconventional distinction, I think a prominent link to east Roman army, and possibly west Roman army once it's created, would be helpful. Ananiujitha (talk) 17:27, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

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That troublesome aureus[edit]

Tiberius would appear to recognized on the reverse of the coin in question. The legend on the obverse reads CAESAR AVGVSTVS DIVI F PATER PATRIAE. If the date of issue is correct (13–14 AD), Augustus was not dead, and is thus the only filius Divi at the time, the Divus meaning Julius Caesar. There's a discussion at Talk:Roman Empire, where notice was given of the impending (now realized) deletion of the preceding coin, which may have been placed by you (or someone else; I've lost track). That coin was deleted from Commons because no one could be bothered to find source info, despite my alerting watchers of Roman Empire to the problem. That is why it had to replaced for the Roman Empire infobox. And that is why we have talk boxes, so this sort of thing is unnecessaryCynwolfe (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

September 2013[edit]

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August 2014[edit]

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