|This is my talk page. Please be nice! Click here to leave me a new message. I normally respond here, and I'll be watching your page (in a good froggy way) if I left you a message there. if you're just bored and want to look at frogs, I recommend The Commons.|
- 1 Edit to African American Historical News Journals
- 2 African American Historical News Journal
- 3 Request to Delete the African-American Historical News Journal entry
- 4 Help with photo transfer to Commons
- 5 Nature of evidence
- 6 If Carlsberg did Cheeseburgers...
- 7 Howdy
- 8 Maria_Luisa_Piraquive
- 9 BLACK CHRONICLE article & support for Takedown request
- 10 Lord Laitinen
Edit to African American Historical News Journals
Hello Free Range Frog,
Thanks for your message regarding my edit of the African American Historical News Journals. I apologize if it didn't work properly. Although the News Journal claims to be a compilation of actual historical news articles, it is actually a reproduction of a publication called the BLACK CHRONICLE, which uses a newspaper format to present African American history. I did remove much of the original copy and replace it with the following:
The vendor of the AAHJ claims it to be a compilation of actual articles from historical newspapers, but in fact, it is an exact reproduction of the BLACK CHRONICLE, an educational publication that uses a newspaper format to relate African American history from 1778 through 1956. The BLACK CHRONICLE was created in 1969 by Robert Miller, produced in 1971 by Blackside, Inc., and published that year by Holt, Rinehart and Winston. These copyrighted materials are currently is available on www.ourhistoryasnews.org
In the Edit Box, I wrote "The AAHJ is an unauthorized reproduction of an educational publication that uses a newspaper format to present African American history."
I realize that this is a major edit, but I believe it to be warranted, because, among other reasons, it violates the Wikipedia guidelines about listing material that is a violation of copyright. Let me know what you think.
African American Historical News Journal
Hello Free Range Frog! Yesterday I sent you a message about my edit of the entry for the African-American Historical News Journal. As I explained, the AAHNJ claims to comprise actual articles from historical black newspapers from 1778 through 1956. In fact, the AAHJ is an unauthorized reprint of the BLACK CHRONICLE, a publication written by educators in the early 70s that uses a newspaper format to present African American history in an engaging format. The BLACK CHRONICLE's first issue (there are 14) is dated 1778 and its last issue is 1956. The BLACK CHRONICLE was produced in 1971 by Blackside, Inc., and published that year by Holt, Rinehart and Winston, which sold it in schools. The BLACK CHRONICLE is copyrighted by Robert Miller, the originator, and is available on www.ourhistoryasnews.org along with LA CRONICA, a similar treatment of Mexican American history. The AAHNJ has replaced the BLACK CHRONICLE title with its own.
How would you suggest I move ahead to correct the AAHNJ entry?
- @Pidgebird: Sorry, I got sidetracked yesterday. I believe this issue was communicated previously to OTRS, where it was not resolved. My recommendation would be to nominate this for deletion, however you would have to provide proof of some sort that they are infringing on your copyright. User:DGG declined my original deletion proposal, and his input would be valuable there as well. If you have that proof, I'll be happy to create a deletion discussion where you can offer it up for inspection by other editors. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 22:39, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Interesting. If the AAHNJ is as you say it is, Pidgebird, then I would probably support 1/ creation of an article on the Black Chronicle, apparently an important educational publication -- however we have an article on a different publication by that name, Black Chronicle so it would be necessary to figure out someway of distinguishing them. 2/ mentioning the AAHNJ in the article as being an unauthorized reprint but giving no link to it per our standard procedure for copyvio sites 3/ Making a redirect from its name and abbreviation to the article on the BC. The first step you can take is to write an article on the BC, supporting your statements with references (such as reviews in educational or library periodicals), I'll be glad to look at it when you have it ready. As the OTRS volunteer probably told you, this is not a question for OTRS. You will need OTRS if you wish to reproduce part of your publication here, to assert your ownership of the copyright, but it cannot be used to prove something in an article as being correct: only published sources will do for that . DGG ( talk ) 03:25, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Hello again Free Range Frog,
Many thanks for your answer. It's thorough and extremely helpful. I will prepare a complete description of the BLACK CHRONICLE, its origins, publication and copyright information, as well as its unauthorized use in the AAHNJ, as you suggest. It will probably take me a few days, but I will get it back to you. By the way, I am aware of the Oklahoma daily, also named the Black Chronicle. That's obviously a daily newspaper, while the BLACK CHRONICLE we're discussing is, as I said, an educational publication. If you get a chance, take a look at it on www.ourhistoryasnews.org, along with LA CRONICA, in which a similar approach is used to relate Mexican American history from 1835 through 1969.
Again, I am very grateful for the information and advice.
Request to Delete the African-American Historical News Journal entry
Dear Free Range Frog,
Thanks again for your advice. I hope that the following explanation clarifies my deep concern and will lead to the removal of the Wikipedia entry for the African-American Historical News Journal. (I apologize if it is somewhat lengthy; I wanted to be thorough!) After the explanation below, I have added a description of the BLACK CHRONICLE and of LA CRONICA, both of which I would like to offer as Wikipedia entries. By the way, to avoid confusion with the Oklahoma Daily, also called the BLACK CHRONICLE, I would suggest we call ours THE BLACK CHRONICLE: Our History As News.
The African-American Historical News Journal has, without authorization, published the entire contents of the BLACK CHRONICLE under its name, wrongly claiming that the articles are from authentic historical newspapers.
The BLACK CHRONICLE is an educational publication that uses a newspaper format to relate African American history from the American Revolution (1778) through the Civil Rights era in the 1950s. In each of fourteen issues, a key event is used as the lead story, with the remainder of the issue built up using features, news stories, editorials, advertisements and anecdotes. The design and writing styles reflect those of the contemporary periods, but the articles were written by educators under the supervision of historians, and reflect current historical thought and theory. Research for the BLACK CHRONICLE was conducted at the NYPL’s Arthur C. Schomburg Collection, Harvard University’s Weidner Library, the Boston Public Library, and many private collections.
The BLACK CHRONICLE was created in early 1970s by Robert A. Miller, produced by Blackside, Inc. (the producer of the award-winning “Eyes on the Prize”), and published by Holt, Rinehart and Winston, which distributed it to schools in the 1970s. In addition to the fourteen newspaper issues, it also included a Kit with Teacher’s Guides, LP Records and overhead transparencies. It was copyrighted and trademarked in 1971. In 1999, the copyrights and trademark were transferred to Mr. Miller, and it now appears on his website, www.ourhistoryasnews.org. The copyright and trademark numbers: Copyright numbers: RE818152 (Textual work); RE815104 (Kit); Mark: 0957815
The AAHNJ claims that it is comprised of original articles from historical newspapers dating back to 1778. However, the AAHJ has lifted its entire contents from the BLACK CHRONICLE, changing its name to the African American Historical News Journals. The AAHJ’s first articles are said to be dated 1778, its last, in 1956 – the same dates as the first and last issues of the BLACK CHRONICLE. A quick look at the articles appearing on the AAHJ website (www.historicalnewsjournals.com) will tell even a casual reader that the articles are modern, not historical. In fact, all the articles that appear as examples on its website are lifted directly from the BLACK CHRONICLE. You can compare them by looking at the pages of the BLACK CHRONICLE, which appear on www.ourhistoryasnews.org. Here are some examples:
AAHJ Home Page: Tuskeegee-Industry for the Race (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 8, 1896, page 1)
AAHJ Category: Military Blacks Win Glory at Brandywine (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 1, 1778, page 1) Slave Steals Confederate Gunboat (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 5, 1862, page 1)
AAHJ Category: Education: Negro Convention Plans College (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 3, 1831, page 1) Black MD’s to Form Society (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 7, 1870, page 1) Booker T. Washington Honored (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 8, 1896, pg 1)
AAHJ Category: Politics Robeson Endorses Wallace for President (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 13, 1948, page 1)
The remaining articles (listed below) that appear on the AAHJ website are taken from interior pages of the BLACK CHRONICLE issues. Since only the front pages of the BLACK CHRONICLE appear on its website, I will be happy to send Wikipedia a complete set of BLACK CHRONICLE so you can confirm the above. AAHJ Category: Politics South Carolina Politics (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 7, 1870, page 2) Black Lt-Governor In D.C. (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 7, 1870, page 4) AAHJ Category: Religion Black Church Reaches South (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 5, 18622, pge 2) Negro Methodists Form Church (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 7, p2. 1877) AAHJ Category: Inventors: Negro Inventors Flourish (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 8, 1896, page 3) “The Greatest” (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Issue 8, 1896, page 3) AAHJ Category: Military Black Women Aid Union Troops (Taken from BLACK CHRONICLE, Iss. 5, 1862, pg 2)
The original and ongoing purpose of the BLACK CHRONICLE was to correct the distortions and omissions of American history, especially in regards to the contributions of African Americans. Letting the AAHJ remain on the Wikipedia site would be to introduce a more insidious distortion, by misleading readers about what is true and what is fiction.
Thank you for your attention.
Entries I would like to offer for inclusion in Wikipedia. Please let me know if there is another means of submission:
The BLACK CHRONICLE: Our History As News
The BLACK CHRONICLE is an educational publication that uses a newspaper format to relate African American history from the American Revolution through the Civil Rights era. Each of its 14 four-page issues is dated at an important moment in African American history, beginning in 1778, when the colonial armies offered freedom to slaves who fought against the British, and ending with the Montgomery Bus Boycott in 1954. Along with a lead article, news stories, features, advertisements and anecdotes, all combine to create a multi-faceted moment in history. The design and writing styles reflect those of the historical periods. Research was conducted at the New York Public Library’s Arthur C. Schomberg Collection, Harvard’s Weidner Library, and many private collections. A teacher’s guide is also available. Copyrighted by Robert A. Miller. Produced by Blackside, Inc. Originally published in 1971 by Holt Rinehart and Winston.
LA CRONICA: Our History As News
LA CRONICA is an educational publication that uses a newspaper format to relate Mexican American history from 1835, when the current Southwest was part of northern Mexico, through the Civil Rights Movement of the late 1960s. Each of nine issues centers on a major event in the history of Mexican Americans. In each issue, four pages are in English and four in Spanish. The design and writing styles reflect those of the historical periods. Research was conducted at the Bancroft Collection at the University of California, Berkeley, the Huntington Museum, the libraries at the University of Texas, Austin, the University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, the Denver Public Library, the University of Arizon, Tucson, and many historical societies and private collections. LA CRONICA is copyrighted by the Center for the Study of Innovative Education, Inc.
- @Pidgebird: But as we mentioned, we need some kind of published evidence that the other journal is stealing your content. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 08:48, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Help with photo transfer to Commons
I tried to copy a photo over to the Commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Photo_of_Tom_Harpur_by_Hugh_Wesley.jpg which you had tagged, but I think I made a mess of it. Can you help? Radath (talk) 06:28, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Radath: You can use a script that is linked to from the "Copy to commons" box but it's all kinds of fun. Anyway, I reverted your edit and then moved it here. It should be deleted soon from Wikipedia so only the Commons version remains. So we're good. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 09:05, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Nature of evidence
Thanks for your response. I'm a little perplexed. I'd be grateful if you would spell out the specific nature of the evidence needed to initiate a take-down discussion of the African-American Historical News Journal among your editors.
- @Pidgebird: As DDG said above, The first step you can take is to write an article on the BC, supporting your statements with references (such as reviews in educational or library periodicals), I'll be glad to look at it when you have it ready. ... only published sources will do for that. We need something published, because we just cannot take someone's word that we should delete an article. We're not doubting what you're telling us, but we need more than just your statements here to proceed. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 22:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
If Carlsberg did Cheeseburgers...
Thank you for your assistance in tidying up the image file I recently uploaded to Wikipedia - very much appreciated.
Richardpeterlyons148 (talk) 20:35, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Richardpeterlyons148: Thank you! I need to go have lunch now §FreeRangeFrogcroak 20:45, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
|I keep seeing you on my watchlist so I'm just stopping by to say hello. I have not been active at BLPN lately so we haven't rubbed shoulders for a while. I trust you are still doing good work there :-) Best, — Keithbob • Talk • 00:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC)|
- Like @Keithbob: Thanks! I still hang out there, yes. Doing some other stuff but that's been my main focus, although I've noticed it's been a bit more active lately (more editors) so it's a bit better than 6 months ago! §FreeRangeFrogcroak 04:35, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello, I just want to know why are you saying that the article is poorly referenced? when I reference everything that i wrote with the most important newspaper in my country, could you please explain me that? I spent a lot of time doing that and I think I won't help any more to this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 04:20, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Hello, I just want to know why are you saying that the article is poorly referenced? when I reference everything that i wrote with the most important newspaper in my country, could you please explain me that? I spent a lot of time doing that and I think I won't help any more to this page.
I'm talking about this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Luisa_Piraquive
- I didn't say the material was poorly referenced, and I didn't "remove everything". Please read my comment in the talk page carefully, and also my comment here. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 04:33, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
BLACK CHRONICLE article & support for Takedown request
Dear Free Range Frog,
In the article below I have tried to provide what you asked for in your last note. In addition to a recap of the creation of the BLACK CHRONICLE, it includes press coverage and ISBN numbers. I have been unable to locate the Library Journal’s coverage of the BLACK CHRONICLE when it was published in 1971 by Holt Rinehart and Winston. In my previous notes to you, I provided copyright information (including the copyright numbers) and a description of the many sources used in creating the publication. All this information would be enough even for a copyright attorney. Regarding the take-down request, most important for you and your colleagues at Wikipedia is that the African-American Historical Journal violates two of Wikipedia’s bedrock principles: Veracity and Copyright Infringement. It falsely claims to be comprised of authentic historical newspapers; and it is a violation of the BLACK CHRONICLE copyright. A simple comparison of the articles on the AAHJ website (www.historicalnewsjournals.com) with those that appear in the BLACK CHRONICLE on www.ourhistoryasnews.org will show them to be exact reproductions of articles that appear in the BLACK CHRONICLE – articles which are not from actual historical newspapers, but which present history using a newspaper format. In my earlier note, I identified several that you can easily compare. By allowing the AAHJ to remain as an entry, Wikipedia is helping to perpetuate a serious distortion of history (the claim that its articles are from actual newspapers) as well as supporting a violation of copyright. There’s really nothing else I can provide.
Here’s the article: THE BLACK CHRONICLE: OUR HISTORY AS NEWS The BLACK CHRONICLE was created in the late 1960s by Robert A. Miller. It uses a newspaper format to relate African-American History. Each of its 14 four-page issues is dated at an important moment in Black history, beginning in 1778 during the Revolutionary War, and ending with the Montgomery Bus Boycott in 1956. In each issue, a lead article, news stories, features, advertisements and anecdotes, all combine to create a multi-faceted moment in history. Although the design and writing styles reflect those of the historical periods, the articles are original pieces, written by Mr. Miller under the supervision of historians to reflect current historical theory. Research was conducted at the New York Public Library’s Arthur C. Schomburg Collection, Harvard’s Weidner Library, and many private collections. A teacher’s guide and CD’s are also available. An article that appeared in Jet Magazine (Sept. 23, 1971) said: “The newspaper, The Black Chronicle, is Robert Miller’s idea for bringing Negro history to life for Black and white high school students alike by presenting it in a modern newspaper format.” Mr. Miller produced the BLACK CHRONICLE in association with Blackside, Inc., in Roxbury, Massachusetts. In 1971, the BLACK CHRONICLE was published by Holt Rinehart and Winston which distributed it to schools (ISBN-0-03-080119-2). In 1999 the copyright was returned to Mr. Miller. The BLACK CHRONICLE was republished in 2010 by World Chronicles, Inc. (ISBN # 978-0-615-57801-952000). It currently appears on the website: www.ourhistoryasnews.org. More recently, the BLACK CHRONICLE received newspaper coverage in a New York Daily News article of October 6, 2011, by Clem Richardson. The BLACK CHRONICLE articles, he wrote, “are part of thousands of facts and pictures Miller put in ‘Black Chronicles’ a series of 14 educational newspapers he created in the early 1970s as a way to painlessly teach black history in our nation’s schools.” Currently, the BLACK CHRONICLE is being used as a social studies supplement in schools across the nation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pidgebird (talk • contribs) 19:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Pidgebird: User:DGG (who is a far more experienced editor than I) previously indicated that we would require published material that supports your case of copyright infringement. At this point I'd like to defer to him to see what it is we can do with what you've provided so far. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 04:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
INAL, but we violate copyright when we reprint something that is copyright to someone who has not licensed it to us, not when we report incorrectly on the copyright status of something. And the person responsible would be the original author in the page history of the material,.In principle, complaints like yours on content should go to WP:OTRS, where they will handled by an experienced volunteer. You say you've been there, but I am one of these volunteers and I think I can deal with it here and investigate the situation. There are some key source that I need: A published statements from a reliable source other that your publication that the AAHJ claims are not correct. Have they ever been sued about it? What was the result? Where was the result reported? What I will then do is not remove their claims, but add yours.
With respect to your material, I suggest you add it as an article in your user space, with the title The Black Chronicle: Our History As News. To facilitate matters, I've moved the material from here to start it there for you, as User:Pidgebird/The Black Chronicles: Our History as News. I made some formatting changes--it needs further--It needs adjustment to our format. See WP:CHEATSHEET for the basic coding.and WP:HOW. Let me know on my talk p, when ready and I will take a look at it. DGG ( talk ) 16:30, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
If you would take the time to read my page, you would know why I look young. I took this picture myself (with a timer) on February 8, 2014, on the same day I joined Wikipedia, specifically for the purpose it is being used for. It is entirely my own work, as it says on the file page. I appear young, but I have plenty of health problems that you cannot see. I am not entirely surprised that you are criticizing my page, due to the fact that you have criticized me in the past. As I said to Gogo Dodo, this page does not entirely break any rules, nor is it harming Wikipedia in any way. It is my user page, and I am politely asking you to leave it be. I have hundreds of contributions on this website after a month, which only a few Wikipedia users can say, and deserve the right to have my harmless page. I would like to get along with everybody on this website better, and am trying to avoid confrontations. If you must reply, please do so here in a short message.Lord Laitinen (talk) 04:31, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
- Right, so not only is it Facebook-like, it's also fake. OK, I have better things to worry about honestly, I won't bother you again. One word of advice though: Not everyone who interacts with you here in a way you dislike is "out to get you". §FreeRangeFrogcroak 04:42, 11 March 2014 (UTC)