User talk:G-Man/Archive 2, Oct 2003-Sept 04

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Great Depression[edit]

I'm sorry for being slow to come back to gold standard, Great Depression, and Great Depression UK. It seems that you've done an excellent job, but I haven't taken the close look that these articles warrant yet. Hopefully, I'll get to these articles shortly.

BTW, on the China-related articles, the vast majority of my contributions on Wiki have pertained to CPC politics; Chinese economic development; and the administrative command system, structural reforms, and democratization in Russia. By and large, however, I think that I've done more on China than on Russia on Wiki. Country by country, I'd assume that most of my work has been on the China-related articles, second most on Russia, third Brazil, and forth the US - most of which have been on economic development and structural change. 172 18:19, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

British Spellings[edit]

My understanding with respect to British spellings is that one is supposed to leave them as originally written. Changing the spelling for proper names, and such, seems appropriate, but I don't think it's supposed to be done generally, even for articles on British themes. I'm willing to be corrected, though. john 23:30, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, it's suggested (but not required) to use British spelling for British subjects. So I suppose it's fine. john 23:26, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Counties[edit]

Please allow me to congratulate you on digging up that wonderful little nugget of info about the County of Coventry. ;) Morwen 18:55, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Well, mainly i regard it as utterly uninteresting. It doesn't matter to me or anyone under about the age of 40 that the counties used to be different. The confusing bit is that the opposition in this debate seems to think we hold our versions of the counties in every bit as high regard as they do theirs, and make comments like "but your counties are temporary!" as if this is horrific. Oh well. Morwen 22:31, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Just as a matter of curiousity, what was inaccurate about the words you changed on analgesic? Nothing seems obviously wrong to me<G> -- Someone else 00:36, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Oops, nevermind. Figured out you were objection to its classification as an NSAID. -- Someone else 00:44, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Dear G-Man, I have done an edit on Great Depression as requested. Economic history is not really my field, so I learned a lot from your article. I think it is admirably clear and concise and a valuable piece of work. My only substantive comment is that there needs to be something on the role of Keynes as a political actor not just on Keynesianism as an economic idea. My recollection is that he played a key role as an advisor to all parties at various times. Adam 02:47, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Thanks very much for the links. I seem to be preoccupied with correcting misinformation about local government reform at the moment, and am discovering a surprising amount of stuff that certain people don't like to mention. I've even ordered a copy of the LGA 1972 in order to get the facts direct.  :) Morwen 22:46, 7 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Yep. Also I've found reference to an exchange of exclaves in the mid-19th century. It should also be noted that places like Liverpool have never been administered by say, a Lancashire County Council. I'm trying to find out when the Scottish counties were established. I think if we dig hard enough we will find that the traditional picture of 13 welsh, 34 scottish and 39 english counties is a chimera, and they never had those counties used for lieutenancy all at one time. Morwen 18:46, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Regarding Rugby. Some time ago someone on Talk:Rugby School wrote "I think that the issue of this being a legend or not should be covered in more depth. If this is not possible, then the statement should be removed." - so I elaborated on the legend. For some reason I can't fathom, you chose to remove it. So I've added it back. Mintguy


Take a look at http://www.pshortell.demon.co.uk/rugby/wwe.htm. There are plenty of local tourist industries based upon local myths. Robin Hood and Nottingham springs to mind. There's no reason to delete a relevant paragrpah just because another page has the same information. I think the server has anough memory. Can you imagine if someone took out all of the duplicated information about WWII. Mintguy 12:55, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've unprotected Birmingham. Secretlondon 19:00, Nov 27, 2003 (UTC)


Hi thanks for the welcome, yes it is, I am interested in numerous things Railways amongst them. Bob Matthews 19:15, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Two reasons - to give a bone to certain people, and because I was trying to make them align with the ceremonial counties that seem to get used for geography by most people. As I've said to Andy Mabbet, I'm not going to object if anyone moves it. Morwen 23:55, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Warwickshire protected as requested. Secretlondon 18:32, Nov 30, 2003 (UTC)


Regarding the transport section of the Brum article: an alternative way of tackling the conflict might be to take the information under that system, add whatever there is to add, and re-write it so that it flows nicely and cohesively. Then we look at it and see if subheadings are even appropriate to the section in terms of how its content is divided. Much 'ink' is being spilled over this, eh? -- Sam 17:43, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I feel we've reached a compromise on this: the content of the whole section has been expanded and I've changed the headers to ones I think are more suitable. As Andy Mabbett hasn't reverted these changes but has added content, I assume he agrees with them. I hope you do too! --Sam 19:57, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Re: Metropolitan Counties of England - who is it that is proposing GLA-like beasts for these areas? I know the government are looking at devolution to the regions, but I haven't heard any plans for Merseyside, Greater Manchester, Tyne and Wear, etc. Morwen 22:18, Jan 3, 2004 (UTC)

Erm I read it Here although it might be outdated G-Man 22:21, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Consequences of Adolf Hitler[edit]

I found your revert on the above page to be in bad form. Please discuss differences of opinion, rather than making reverts. If you have read Talk:Consequences of Adolf Hitler than you are aware that this is an ongoing difficulty, which your revert does nothing to solve. Thank you for your kind attention. Jack 03:41, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)


Buckinghamshire[edit]

Just noticed your comment on Buckinghamshire on Morwen's talk page: You should take a look at Buckinghamshire I'm not sure it conforms to policy. I am getting very bored with this counties stuff, hopefully We'll get it sorted soon and we can do something else useful. G-Man 21:43, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC). Mind if I ask what's wrong with it or is that a bad question? -- Francs2000 22:01, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)


Socialism[edit]

By moving the discussion of Nazism and Socialism to its own page (where both sides can be reviewed more objectively), you've made a real contribution. Sunray 18:54, 2004 Jan 8 (UTC)

Well, perhaps I should have said "one might hope both sides could be reviewed more objectively." Your continuing edits are much appreciated, though. Sunray 07:46, 2004 Jan 18 (UTC)

Marxist-Leninist government[edit]

I was looking back through the edit history of Marxist-Leninist governmentand found this edit by you: "occasionally because a Marxist party has been elected"; I can't think of any such instance. Please enlighten me. Fred Bauder 17:58, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Excuse me for butting in. This might be a referenc to Chile, which elected Allende. After the election, he started to look a lot more Marxist than before the election. Anyway, when people who believed in democracy found out they had a Marxist or Marxist-leaning goverment, they were concerned about slipping back into dictatorship -- so they overthrew Allende. Chile has been democratic ever since.
There is no recorded case of an openly Marxist party ever being elected. Why? Probably because people never knowingly vote to lose their freedom.
On the other hand, people have voted for political parties with redistributionist economic policies (as in socialism. Wikipedia articles have yet to make it clear just precisely what qualifies as "socialist", though, so there's still a lot of confusion.

Photographs[edit]

Some of your images have awfully large file sizes for the actual image size. Believe it or not, some people still use dial-up internet. Have you considered using a tool like GIMP or Photoshop to save using a higher compression level? --136.186.1.117 02:17, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Ah, Fascism is Alive and Well![edit]

I was quite astonished that you removed my comments regarding your 'alteration' of the BNP article. After my astonishment though, I just laughed out load. You have absolutely no idea who I am, but you instantly dismiss my comments because they don't agree with your own views. Is that the sort of 'democratic' Britain you wish for. In my younger days we called people like you fascists; we didn't need to qualify the label by preceding it with 'right-wing' because a fascist was a fascist was a fascist; someone who was against democracy and freedom in 'all' their forms. Your claim to be of a left wing social-democrat persuasion is absolutely laughable. I should know because, as a man of 73 years of age and a member of the Labour party for 48 years, I know 'exactly' what the real definitions are of socialism, democracy and freedom, and you obviously know nothing whatsoever about any of them. I've seen many twerps like you join my party over the years, but you never last long because us ordinary, long-serving, hard-working members do not like being told what we can and can't do, say or believe by bigots of your ilk. My note to you yesterday was not about the BNP, it was about democracy and freedom of speech. You obviously haven't learnt to read between the lines yet though. Perhaps when you've grown up you'll understand! I dislike the Tories and disagree with their policies, but I don't go around tearing down their posters or shouting down their candidates; I simply put my own opinions and policies on the line and let the voters make their choice. Unlike you, I treat voters as adults, capable of listening to all sides of an argument and making an informed decision. If they choose another party over mine, so be it; that is 'their' choice. I feel sorry for this country if bigots like you are its future, because your far worse and far more dangerous to this country than the BNP could ever dream of becoming. I'm glad I won't be around that much longer. You can give yourself all the 'progressive' labels you like: democrat, socialist, liberal, left-wing ... whatever! But at the end of the day, a fascist is a fascist is a fascist!

Feel free to delete this 'rant' as well. I would expect little less of someone who is afraid to debate issues. You are not going to have an easy life ahead of you when you enter the 'real' world though! You may think you are a G 'man', but you are still a mere G 'boy'!

Firstly I apologise for removing your comments (whoever you are) I'm not very keen on complete strangers leaving accusations on my talk page out of the blue in an aggressive tone. Secondly I'm not sure which "hatchet job" or whatever you are refering to on the BNP article. I am all in favour of the BNP view of things getting fair hearing, Im not trying to "surpress freedom of speach" or whatever you are accusing me of. I was merely removing parts of the article which read like a BNP press release trumpeting BNP electoral triumphs, rather than an encyclopedia article, I was not attempting to bias the article perhaps I should have made that clearer. If you think the article is biased you can edit it yourself if you so wish G-Man 12:59, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

G-Man: What's with that denouncement above? I'm certain that it has to be way off base. Let me know if I can mediate this conflict or block a problem user. 172 20:35, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps this anonymous user wasn't aware that expunged content can be restored in seconds. Could this explain why he was so offended? By Wiki's standards, your actions weren't hostile or unusual by any means. However, I can imagine a member of a generation not reared on personal computers and instantaneous Internet access experiencing a "culture shock," so to speak, when trying to make an edit for the first time. You should encourage him to sign up for a user account and strike up a dialogue with the longtime Labour activist on his user page. Hopefully we can assuage some of his concerns. If he becomes a content member of the users' community, it would do a great deal to strengthen our diversity. After all, Wiki has such strong Anglo-American "Gen-X," "Gen-Y," and "Boomber" biases. 172 18:41, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Regional district boxes[edit]

I'm pretty sure there's no way at present to make the boxes collapsible; perhaps you could try requesting it from the developers. I'm not quite sure what you mean about the boxes being ugly, but if you don't like their arrangement you can always edit them.

I believe Morwen is working on seperating the local government district and town articles where they are distinct. As a stop-gap, I have tried to mention in a few of the town articles that there is a district of the same name.

On a different subject (Marxist government being elected), weren't the LSSP elected in Sri Lanka as a Marxist government? Also, how about the CPs of certain East European states, and of Mongolia which have been elected since 1990 and still claim to be Marxist?

Moves[edit]

Ok, I won't object to splitting of West Midlands boroughs where you think it appropriate so go ahead and do them. I think with the others we should wait and try to get local input from people. Morwen 21:02, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

OK then, I have to go now so I'll be back tommorow. I hope I've cleared up the misunderstanding about maps. G-Man 21:06, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Please add new things to Wikipedia:List of English districts to disambiguate if you find them. Morwen 21:03, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

Corby of course should not be split; only when there is a significant amount of countryside should we split non-metropolitian districts... Morwen 21:24, Mar 8, 2004 (UTC)

OK then. G-Man 21:27, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Coventry images[edit]

Hi G-Man, I've just changed the images on Coventry Cathedral over to thumbnails so the small versions (image:Coventry Cathedral Ruins 350.jpg and image:New Coventry Cathedral 350.jpg) aren't needed any more. I haven't listed them on Wikipedia:Images for deletion, I wanted to check you were happy with the changes first. All OK with you? -- sannse (talk) 23:32, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

MediaWiki boxes and British socialism[edit]

The complete list is here: Wikipedia:MediaWiki_custom_elements, with links to each MediaWiki element.

On a different subject, what makes you say that Marxism never became a "mainstream" part of British socialism? I would say it did, although it never became a majority view. Perhaps if you could explain your reasoning it would help us come up with a compromise wording for the section of History of British socialism. Warofdreams 15:37, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I decided Bulkington wasn't a town because it doesn't have a town council or mayor, and I couldn't find any reference to a market. Checking for usage, Googling for "Bulkington" and "town" didn't turn up any references to Bulkington as a town, while doing the same with village came up with lots.

Re: Your comments on Marxism - I think this is largely true, and it would be a lot clearer to say that than just it never became part of the mainstream. Warofdreams 20:36, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)


Hi, there have been some suggestions that we need to start cleaning out the old requests posted to Wikipedia:Peer review. You are receiving this because you have posted one or more requests that have been there a long time. When you have a moment, please check it out and remove the request(s), along with any related material, if you have received adequate feedback. Thanks! -- Wapcaplet 23:16, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)



Thanks for keeping an eye on the fascsim-related articles. We haven't seen anything like this since a member of a similar species (the user who was ranting and raving about how going off the gold standard was the end of the world) was propagandizing the Great Depression article.

BTW, I'm really troubled that you aren't aware of User:Jtdirl's whereabouts either.(Perhaps I ought to leave it at that, so as to avoid being an alarmist) I tried e-mailing him a couple of weeks ago, but I didn't get a response. I sent it through the e-mail feature on Wikipedia, which has been having difficulties lately, so there's reason to try again. I hope everything's okay. 172 17:23, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)


I'd really appreciate some help. The 'social democracy = fascism' trolls have found Wikipedia:Requests for comment/172. It would be great if I could get a couple of people to vouch for me, saying that while I might've been hastily reverting pages, I was hastily reverting fiction. If you have time, thanks in advance. 172 19:51, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)


Since the Coventry article no longer has the May 31st date embedded, the Selected Anniversaries on the Main Page no longer features it for May 31st. But, if someone can figure out a way to restore mention of the May 31 1940 Luftwaffe bombing, then it can be restored in Selected Anniversaries on the Main Page as well. Ancheta Wis 06:03, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)


I've started a new WikiProject: WikiProject Trains. I'm inviting all Wikipedians who are interested in trains and railways to take a look and decide if they want to get this going. Thanks, —Morven 23:29, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)



It is on the list of districts to split, I expect. Feel free to go and do it. Morwen 20:57, Apr 14, 2004 (UTC)



Care to Talk:Rail transport in the United Kingdom#List of historic companies? --Tagishsimon


Sunderland and County Durham[edit]

Thanks for your support. The problem is the convention says one thing, but in its "acceptable things" implies another:

We should use the current administrative county name but

Coventry is in the West Midlands, and within the traditional borders of Warwickshire is acceptable.

Coventry is in the West Midlands, and was within the traditional borders of Warwickshire is better garryq 20:48, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Talk:Rail transport in the United Kingdom[edit]

You're cordially invited to Talk:Rail transport in the United Kingdom#Country / Region Naming of all UK/GB/NI/Ire Rail & Rail History Pages for a final whirl around the naming debate, should you be interested. Best wishes --Tagishsimon

And we're off & racing at: Talk:Rail transport in the United Kingdom/Alternate naming schemes --Tagishsimon


List of Historical Railway Companies[edit]

G-Man, any possibility you'd agree to moving the list of historical companies from the Rail transport in the United Kingdom to the History of rail transport in Great Britain? Sorry to revert back to this issue; I know we've been here once before. My argument: we have, or are heading towards, a current situation page, and a history page. Now that we've had the April 2004 churn of franchises, there's a whole bunch more historical companies ... I can't figure out the sense of keeping the historical list on the current page, and having no historical list on the history page. Fries my synapses. Still. I chanced on a steam loco today at Virginia Water, of all places, which is a consolation. Meanwhile, I don't know where we go next on naming. But there's no rush. best wishes --Tagishsimon

Why haven't you been able to...[edit]

complete the message at the top of the page?? Please do so if you know the answer. 66.32.95.37 18:58, 2 May 2004 (UTC)


Tires and gears[edit]

Regarding your "Tire" entry edit: "The air compresses as the wheel goes over a bump and acts as a shock absorber."

Although the tire does act as a shock absorber, changes in air pressure inside the tire when going over a bump are usually very small. Indeed the compression effect can be discounted entirely because tire operation would not be noticeably changed even if the internal pressure were held constant.

Pneumatic tires support their loads and accommodate bumps primarily by reduction in the vertical tension component in the sidewall region between the rim and the ground--resulting in an outwards deformation of the sidewall, and it is this outward deformation which permits varying distances between the tread and the rim, producing the shock absorber effect to accommodate surface irregularities.

Also, the illustration for the "Hub Gears" entry depicts input torque routed through the sun gear. In most bicycle hub gears, input torque is routed through the annulus (for low gear) and the planet gears (for high gear), while the sun gear is held fixed with respect to the axle. Holding the planet gear axles fixed will reverse the direction of torque.

Nick ngear@gvtc.com

If you think something's wrong your welcome to change it. the illustration on the hub gear article is nothing to do with me, I havn't touched that article for months. If you look at the page history you can see who added it and talk to them. G-Man 19:29, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Splitting[edit]

As we've discussed before, I don't think city status makes any difference as to whether a district and a town should be split.

In the case of Sheffield, places like Stocksbridge are inside the city boundaries but clearly not part of the town itself (have a look on a map!). I have no plans to split any more articles about cities, so you needn't worry if I am going to split Birmingham.

I know that having large rural districts with the status of cities is a bit odd; this is a matter for Her Majesty not me. Morwen 11:53, May 6, 2004 (UTC)

Another useful indicator might be the fact that Stocksbridge has its own town council. I haven't looked this up exactly; but I would guess the entirety of the City of Sheffield will be parished - apart from the old county borough; as is the case in many districts. I think I'll go through the list and check which of these districts have parishes. Morwen 22:50, May 7, 2004 (UTC)


I took a look at that The Troubles article and yes it needs work. I did some stuff from memory for it but a lot more needs to be done and a deeper analysis added. I'll try to get back to it. Damn it! There I am "just visiting" and instead I start doing a major article already! Some things never change! :-) FearÉIREANN 20:17, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Andy and Nick[edit]

Hi G-man, i would really apreciate your un-biased opinion on the Birmingham page re my points about the Brum page. I am trying to protect some of what has been mercilessley deleted by one person and this is the only way i think we can all reach a fair conclusion, your views will be much apreciated from both sides.

Thanks Nick.

Do you want to make some comments at Talk:Augusto Pinochet#Another poll? 172 15:18, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Birmingham[edit]

Have you _seen_ the edits the anonymous IP has been making? Sheer vandalism. Morwen 18:10, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

I think a far more appropriate reaction would be blocking the IP who is doing the vandalism. I personally don't give a shit about whether two musicians are there or not - but doing things like reverting to a version with spelling mistakes, or removing 50% of the article is not acceptable. Morwen 18:20, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

I agree, however it is a "crime of passion" so to speak, at Pigsonthewing's arrogance. Please give Nick some time to cool down G-Man 18:25, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

No G-man i only reverted MY own hard work that Andy Mabbet had edited or removed and that is absolute truth but it's up to you whether you believe me or not, i don't know why my ip address shows up different up to three times when i post, i think i may need to log in to ensure people know who i am but one thing is for sure, as wormwen says "i don't give a shit" really! if no one else does then why would i???

Nick

Andy Mabbet is now reverting text i removed on my user page, i think he must really like me to do this what do you think? i don't really want my information there now as i am finding certain users quite abhorrent, i was blocked by someone as well see: Forbidden You were denied access because: Access denied by access control list. Thanks Nick.

Frank Whittle[edit]

Photo added (but I'll try to find an even better one). Best Wishes, Adrian.
Adrian Pingstone 07:52, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

In need of community support[edit]

I'm in need of community support.

Right now, I am on the verge of being driven away from Wikipedia through the relentless efforts of a single problem user on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/172, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration, and Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/172 vs VeryVerily.

The same user who refuses to accept the results of the Augusto Pinochet poll (see also [1]) goes through my user history every time he logs on and then starts reverting things that I've written arbitrary. He manages to divert attention away from the articles onto ad hominem attacks, thus poisoning the well against me. [2]

He has been doing nothing else for the past couple of months, other than making some minor changes to pages that he finds through the random page feature. Meanwhile, I've been working on articles such as Empire of Brazil, Dollar Diplomacy, and Franco-U.S. relations. I'm tired of letting a problem user define my contributions to the encyclopedia, as opposed to my work.

I may have said some regrettable things in the past, but my editing practices are scholarly and methodical. When I make an edit, my choice is based on a consideration of the quality of the encyclopedia. Unlike the user who avowedly admits to trying to escalate a personal feud (see, e.g., [3]), I do not decide which pages to edit and what changes to make on the basis of personality feuds, emotional POV whims, or a desire to get attention.

Although this user shows little evidence that he understands the content of the articles, I have shown considerable restraint, given my professional expertise. [4]. Only through community support (i.e. lobbying the arbitration committee)will this user be stopped. Otherwise, Wikipedia will die unless we stop vandals and clueless POV-pushers from running rampant and driving away valued contributors.

Please feel free to direct questions and comments to my talk page or e-mail at sokolov47@yahoo.com.

Sincerely,

172 01:47, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Categorising British politicians[edit]

I've made a proposal - Category talk:British politicians - would appreciate feed back. Thanks Secretlondon 06:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)


Population estimates[edit]

The Office for National Statistics publishes a table rounded to the nearest 100: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=601

  • Population Estimates - Current Releases
    • Mid-2002 - Armed Forces Correction - 27/01/04
      • 13 datasets
        • T 08: Selected age groups etc

ONS don't seem to publish unrounded figures - the apparent accuracy is probably spurious anyway, but if you want it, it appears that the figures are used by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister http://www.local.odpm.gov.uk/finance/0405/grant.htm

  • Entitlement Notification Report 2004-05
    • Broken down by authority type

--Keith Edkins 06:47, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Denise Lewis[edit]

Hi G-man, i dj'd to Denise and her boyfriend a couple of years back at a bash that i was persuaded to do (normally do acid jazz/funk nights) she was a really sound person,, don't know why i'm tellin you this but thabks for showing me the ~ tip, Nick Boulevard 23:47, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC) :)

Exercise bike[edit]

Hello,

Sorry this is a bit cheeky, but I noticed you'd written on the cycling talk page and your user page lists it as one of your interests. Can you recommend a decent exercise bike? I'm on a limited budget and will probably be buying second hand. I know a lot of bikes get bought but are not used  ;o) There appear to be quite a lot going Ebay search.

I'd really appreciate the help, as I need to purchase wisely because of my personal circumstances and it will really help me with my health problems.

Regards, --[[User:Bodnotbod|bodnotbod ......TALKQuietly)]] 18:13, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

Great Britain's canals[edit]

RE: History of the British canal system

There is another article on Britain's canal network which lists all Britain's canals, and details abandoned and proposed routes. It has a brief history at the top, my question is, is it better to add a note to that short history (something like for a more detailed history go here), or to incorporate this page into the other page? Grunners 12:29, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree, I've put a "for a more detailed history see here" link in the brief history on the Canals of the United Kingdom article. Grunners 11:03, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)