User talk:Ghostexorcist/Archive

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Welcome

Hello Ghostexorcist/Archive, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, please be sure to sign your name on Talk and vote pages using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, or three tildes (~~~) for just your name. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!

-JFD 17:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Battled History of Gen. Yue Fei Pengju?

Does any user out their have detailed information about the battles of Yue Fei's family army? I have the english translation of Yue Fei's biography but it does a piss poor job of stating factual information. Most of it is just myth. (!Mi nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 05:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC))

Unspecified source for Image:CJ Wang Under Text.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:CJ Wang Under Text.jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the file also doesn't have a copyright tag, then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Fair use, use a tag such as {{Non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Jusjih 07:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I've already resolved the problem. The picture was neither copyrighted nor licensed, however I couldn't find the correct format to list it under.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 08:32, 13 July 2006 (UTC))

Hi!

Dear Ghost Exorcist,

Hi! How are you doing? Very well I hope. I just got your message today, and I want to thank you for sending it to me. To answer your question, I am not a descendant of the Kaifeng Jews, but half of my family originally came from the Kaifeng area. That sparked my interest in Kaifeng's Jewish connection. I'm looking forward to reading your book. Have a good weekend!

Best wishes,

Albert

WikiProject Hinduism and Hindu Mythology

Do you want to join these projects? GizzaChat © 04:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry you misunderstood me. I meant to say do you want to become a member of these projects. I saw you article on Kalki Purana and thought that you are interested in Hinduism. Thanks GizzaChat © 03:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
If you click on the main pages for the respective projects, there is a participants section. All you have to do is add your name in a self-expanatory style at the bottom of the section. Welcome to the projects! GizzaChat © 12:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Testicle Eight Outstanding Qigong

Are you sure you have the right Chinese characters for this? For the characters you have listed (肾子八大奇功), the "qi" is not the "qi" for "breath," but the "qi" for "strange," which is unusually apt in this instance. That said, it does Google so I might be wrong.
JFD 00:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Yue Fei's Soldiers: Xingyi or Chuojiao, Fanzhi, & qinna?

The only information I have seen that points to Yue Fei's involvement with Xing Yi is the so-called "Ji family Chronicle" that says Ji Longfeng found Yue Fei's manual of boxing. I think that is it.

Just a minor point, but if I'm not mistaken, that's the version of events from the "Liuhequan Xu," not the "Ji family Chronicle."

Did Yue Fei actually train his soldiers in Xingyi? I don't believe he trained his soldiers in Xingyi at all. My basis for this is that Xingyi is such an advanced art and his soldiers were constantly on the move. I just don't think the average person, under those harsh conditions, would have been able to effectively utilize this style on the battlefield....I don’t think Yue Fei’s soldiers were afforded the time necessary to learn this complex system. However, I believe he might have taught them Chuojiao, Fanzi, and the 108 joint-locks techniques. These systems seem to be quicker to learn.

I’ve heard an interpretation that’s pretty much the opposite: that Xingyiquan is comparatively simple so that the rank-and-file could learn it easily. After all, what’s easier to remember in the heat of battle: 10 animal techniques or 108 joint-locks?

If Xingyiquan is indeed based on the spear, I don’t think that Yue Fei would have wanted to withhold it from his rank-and-file. After all, the spear wielders on the front lines aren’t usually top generals.

To return to my language metaphor, people from different parts of the Roman Empire spoke a common language: Latin. Over the centuries, local variations had become so distinct that at some point their descendants were no longer speaking a common Latin, but the different—yet still related—languages of Italian, French, Spanish, etc.

I think that, at least in the case of the styles attributed to Yue Fei, that martial arts emerge in the same way: that he didn't invent multiple styles, but that the material he passed on splintered into different styles later on.

There’s an article on ChinaFromInside.com which mentions that researchers have suggested that Xingyiquan and Chuojiao Fanziquan are similar because they share a common ancestor in Wen Family Boxing.[1]

Whether Xingyi and Chuojiao/Fanzi come from Wen Family Boxing I don't know, but the idea of a genetic relationship between the two is supported by examining other styles that are said to be related. Mandarin Duck Kicks (Yuanyangjiao), the style that Zhou Tong taught Lin Chong, bears the "family resemblance".

If the stories about Xinyiba dating back to the earliest days of Shaolin are true (as opposed to being introduced to Shaolin by Ji Jike), then it should have been on the curriculum by the time that Zhou Tong taught there. Watch these videos [2][3] and then take a look at the picture on this page entitled "Ancient mural showing Xinyiquan movement in Dai clan mansion".

On the same site, note the photograph of Chuojiao/Fanzi master Wu Binlou on this page in a posture that bears a resemblance to stances in both Xingyiquan and Northern Praying Mantis. (Yan Qing, a grandstudent of Zhou Tong through Lu Junyi, and the aforementioned Lin Chong were among the eighteen masters upon whose work Northern Praying Mantis is based.)

With regard to the divergence into different styles, remember that, if Yue Fei is a source for Xingyi, he is by no means the only one. The animal techniques of Henan Xingyiquan are attributed to Yue Fei, but a good deal of the material is still the martial arts practiced by the Luoyang Hui community before Ma Xueli was visited by his "wandering master". Shanxi Xingyiquan shares the animal routines with Henan Xingyiquan, but adds the Five Elements from the Dai family style as well as some material from Six Harmony Praying Mantis.

And don’t get me started on the “Northern” and “Southern” schools of Shaolin.
--JFD 15:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

In your opinion, what variation on Xingyi do you think he taught his troops?
I don't think that what Yue Fei taught his troops could rightly be called a "variation on Xingyi". An ancestor of Xingyi perhaps, but also of other styles.
I mean, if Zhou Tong taught him Chuojiao, Fanziquan, Elephant Boxing and maybe even Xinyiba, do you think he could have changed the postures of these styles to accommodate soldiers wearing heavy armor and came up with a completely new style?
Many martial arts with a battlefield pedigree were originally meant for use while wearing armor against armored opponents. For example, Taizu Changquan, the predominant style of the period, was the art that Emperor Taizu used to establish the Song Dynasty. Chen T'ai Chi Ch'uan retains characteristics of its battlefield pedigree that were left out of other styles that were developed for health and personal self-defense rather than for use in combat while wearing armor. Also, armor makes joint-locking techniques relatively more useful and striking techniques relatively less so.
Plus, there is also the boxing style which bares his name, Yuejiaquan– “Yue Family Boxing”. Do you think this style could have been the end result of changing said postures?
I don't know enough to say either way.
Like I said before, I am writing a historical fiction novel based around the life of a soldier under Yue Fei's command.
Believe it or not, you are not the first acquaintance of mine to have attempted this. And the other one got published, so good luck!
--JFD 07:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Could you tell me more about Xinyiba? What are its Chinese characters? You say it could have been apart of the Shaolin curriculum by Zhou Tong's time, right? This sounds like an avenue I could explore. I know you said it dates back to the Liang Dynasty, but I've googled it and it is only mentioned in regards to Ji Longfeng.
The Chinese characters for Xinyiba are 心意把.
The multiple versions of Xinyiba's origins are:
  • Xinyiba was created at Shaolin in the 6th century
  • Xinyiba was brought to Shaolin by Ji Longfeng (which, of course, makes it impossible that Xinyiba was on the Shaolin curriculum during Zhou Tong's time)
  • Xinyiba was brought to Shaolin by a local Hui Muslim
When I was looking into the origins of the Five Animals, I suspected a link to Xingyi. The Five Animals are supposed to have come from the original Shaolin temple in Henan and revolutionized Shaolin Kung Fu and Chinese martial arts more generally, but they can only be found the southern Chinese martial arts. (You can find animal techniques in northern Chinese martial arts, but not the Five Animals as an exclusive set.)
I suspected a link to Xingyi for the following reasons.
  • Xingyi looks more like southern Chinese martial arts like Fujian White Crane than its Changquan neighbors in northern China. Also, in southern Chinese martial arts, qigong training is integrated into forms (e.g. Sanchin, Sam Bo Jin, Iron Wire Fist) in a manner similar to Xingyi.
  • Both Xingyi and Five Animals use the term "Five Forms" (五形; wǔ xíng), Xingyi to mean the Five Elements, Five Animals to mean the Five Animals. Moreover, each of the Five Animals is associated with a specific element, which led me to speculate that the material within the elements and animals of Xingyi was condensed under the catch-all term "Five Forms," whose meaning drifted from "Five Elements" to "Five Animals" during the journey from north to south.
The traditional story says that the Five Animals have their origins in the disillusionment that Jueyuan felt at the loss of the internal aspects of Shaolin Kung Fu by the 13th century. He created the Five Animals with input from Li Sou and Bai Yufeng. According to one version of the story, Bai Yufeng took Jueyuan and Li Sou to meet his teacher, an internal master from Luoyang named Ma—sound familiar?—which dovetails into the idea that Xinyiba was brought to Shaolin by a Hui Muslim from Henan. Or perhaps Jueyuan left Shaolin in order to find a master of Xinyiba so that he could return the internal art of Shaolin to its birthplace.
Jueyuan is also credited with the northern "flood fist" Hongquan (洪拳) which shares its name with a major Five Animals style of the south. Interestingly, northern "flood fist" Hongquan appears to be one of the sources of the internal style T'ai Chi Ch'uan.
The problem is that while pieces of this puzzle fit together here and there, they don't form a cohesive whole. The "Five Forms" animal/element conflation is suggestive, as is Bai Yufeng's master from Luoyang named Ma, but it's not until the 18th century that the animal techniques of Xinyi enter the corpus of Ma family martial arts and Dai Longbang combines those animal techniques with the Five Element Fists of his family style. So my theory is pretty much shot to hell unless there is a link to Five Animals after the emergence of Xingyi in its modern form in the 18th century, which is a speculation even more baseless than all of the others I've already engaged in. (See, I told you not to get me started on "Northern" and "Southern" Shaolin.)
I did find a site that talks about the "Three Fists" (San Quan) of Xingyi. This is interesting to me because the Yue Family Boxingstyle has a set known as "Three Doors" Boxing. I wonder if these Three Doors were developed from the three fists of Xinyiba?
Does Xinyiba have the "Three Fists"? I thought they came from Dai Family Xinyi.--JFD 01:10, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I realize that you didn’t specifically mention the “three fists” in regards to xinyiba; however, you did mention the basic three fists inherent in all Xingyi branches.
That's my bad for not being clearer.
Of course I do not know how far back Dai Family martial arts go, but I (stupidly?) assumed there was a correlation between the two: The 3 later became 5. Then again, I might be “overthinking” this.
The only technique which appears in both is Drilling, though I think that Wrapping appears in the Hebei lianhuanquan routine.
Maybe there were originally 5, but the Dai family “purified” it down to 3, but later adopted the 5 again.
Now you're overthinking it ;)
From my understanding, the Dai family are the creators of “Modern” “Xingyi” and not “Xinyi”. I am still confused on the split there, but from what I read, Xinyi came first then Xingyi.
The Dai family still calls their art "Xinyi" so the Xinyi→Xingyi change probably ought to be attributed to Li Luoneng. There's an article on ChinaFromInside.com that attributes it to Guo Weihan, assuming he was Li Luoneng's teacher.
When I said "Xingyi" and "modern Xingyi," I meant the styles that emerged in the 18th century: the Xinyi Liuhe of the Ma family, the Xinyiquan of the Dai family, and the Xingyi of Li Luoneng. We were talking about the context of Xingyi in Yue Fei's time, so I drew the distinction there, where oral legend starts to become verifiable history.--JFD 15:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Xinyiba is closer to Dai family xinyi and Ma family xinyi liuhe than it is to the branches of xingyi descended from Li Luoneng. Look at the posture where the practitioner "sits" on one leg while the other is extended in front of him. Also, that swinging of the arms in a "figure 8" comes from tongbei and evolves into the splitting fist of modern xingyi.--JFD 21:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Jewish WikiProjects

Hi Ghostexorcist: Saw your comments on Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism#Directory of participants but they don't belong there. The "Directory of participants" is only to list names, period. Place your comments about your interests and questions on the relevant talk page at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism and you can also try posting your question/s at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jewish history and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jewish culture. Hope this helps. Sincerely, IZAK 10:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Re: Please delete Image:CJ Wang Under Text.jpg

Unfortunately I am not an administrator here yet so I cannot delete it for you. You may nominate me at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship as I am ready, but please note that voting still requires seven days before promotion.--Jusjih 01:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Wen Family Boxing related to Taizu Changquan?

Meir Shahar and Stanley Henning share a very text-based methodology.
Sal's approach is two-pronged:

  1. Collect oral histories and try to cross-reference them
  2. Analyze forms and their choreography in order to determine relationships between styles (in much the same way the linguists analyze languages in order to determine their interrelationships)

According to Sal,

  • Before the Song dynasty, the Shaolin curriculum consisted of Luohan and Xinyiba.
  • Emperor Taizu synthesized Chaquan and one or two other styles (I can remember which at the moment) into Taizu Changquan, which became widespread.
  • The Ma family already had animal Xinyi by the late Yuan.
  • Styles associated with Yue Fei almost invariably have some kind of relationship with Fanzi.

JFD 07:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


Could the other style Emperor Taizu synthesized into Changquan be Pào Chuí?
I'm not aware of any tradition connecting Emperor Taizu to Pao Chui.
Are you trying to establish a connection with T'ai Chi Ch'uan?

You wouldn't happen to know his email address would you?
Not offhand, but I run into him every so often.
His band is about to start touring so I don't know how much of a regular he's going to be on that forum for the immediate future.
If you want, I can try to pass your questions on to him. I might be catching one of his band's shows in the next week or two.
JFD 13:12, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


I mentioned it to see if it would kick-start your memory as you said Emperior Taizu had synthesized other styles (that you had forgotten) to make Taizu Long boxing.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think Tong Bei was one of them.

Oh, if you could just tell Sall about the Zhou Tong (Shaolin Abbot) article, so he could make some additions to it, I would appreciate that as well.
I'm not sure I can get him to do that, but I can try to get his feedback on the article. It might also be helpful if you gave me a list of whatever questions you have.

Also, Sal doesn't think that Zhou Tong was abbot of Shaolin, just a monk.
JFD 18:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


it just sounds like whatever oral tradition or book he got the info from might have been trying to link two ancient martial arts, which are synonymous with two famous people: Emperor Taizu and Yue Fei.

One thing to keep in mind is that the dissemination of martial arts in China was largely the result of military conscription:
men would get drafted, be trained in Kung Fu, and then return home.
With that in mind, it's no surprise that so many martial arts are linked to Emperor Taizu and Yue Fei, who both had large conscript armies.
JFD 22:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


That's great!
JFD 22:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism in Jin Dynasty, 1115–1234

Hi, Ghostexorcist, I just want to let you know that this user Breathejustice and his possible allies User:69.210.209.211, User:68.250.52.50 & User:68.252.34.42 have consistently vandalized articles related to Manchuria, Jurchens, as well as Manchu in the past (see the history section of each articles). Some of the Japanese-related articles has also been vandalized by this user. So, please keep up the good work and help us fix these vandalisms. Thanks! --Godardesque 20:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Ghostexorcist, this user Breathejustice has been vandalizing these articles (Manchuria, Manchu, Jurchen, Jin Dynasty, 1115–1234) since the middle of the last month, under this name and several other user names (see 67.38.247.32 and 192.35.79.70)! He/she actually makes all the other crazy nationalists look normal and sensible by comparison, a real tough cookie I'll give him that. Also, the contents in the historic section of the Manchuria article he vandalized came directly from the Korean Embassy (http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/korea/history.htm#The%20Ko%20Choson) and some of the earlier websites he tried to cite also came directly from Korean government portals... You should also see some of the maps he made earlier (go to Manchuria - history), it'll make you laugh your head off for sure. (most of them are deleted though, like this one File:Goguryeo h.gif, but some remained...) --Godardesque 06:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Gojoseon1.gif

Leitai

Leitai looks good.

Nice job, Ghostexorcist.

Only thing I would alter is adding a source for the dating of the first appearance of the leitai to the Tang and Song dynasties.
JFD 05:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the "xián" in "Ma Xianda": 賢
As for the rest, I'm afraid you caught me at a bad time.
I can, however, direct you to the Mandarin Tools Chinese Character Dictionary. That's what I rely on. Also, you can cut and paste its unicode characters into Wikipedia.
JFD 00:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid that I'm on the road for the near future and am therefore unable to consult my library.
Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals by Kennedy & Guo, The Power of Internal Martial Arts by Bruce Frantzis, and Shaolin Long Fist by Yang Jwing-Ming all deal with the history of the Central Guoshu Institute. The Lai Hung books on Northern Shaolin probably do too, but I'm not as familiar with them.
Good luck!
JFD 02:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Looking pretty good now, I'll have to wait to see what references your forum queries turn up. You might want to use the footnote mechanism that is used in Abraham Lincoln (which links each note back to the reference point), and the citation/reference mechanism that is used in Xingyiquan (which again links the referenced work back to the reference). These are not perhaps the best examples, I just picked a couple that I knew used it. -- Medains 09:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I also just found where I read about the lei tai surrounded by water... Here with pictures :) -- Medains 09:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject_Martial_Arts

You are listed as a participant in this Wikiproject, which appears to have ground to a halt - I'm contacting all participants to try to get things rolling again... hope you can help! -- Medains 08:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:Zhoutongandstudents.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:Zhoutongandstudents.jpg. Wikipedia gets thousands of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

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This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 03:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I noticed that I forgot to tag it after I uploaded the photo. I uploaded it again not a minute afterwards. Here is the new photo: Image:Zhoutong&students.jpg. It has the correct tagging.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 03:23, 5 October 2006 (UTC))
I have since put the correct tag on Image:Zhoutongandstudents.jpg.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 03:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC))

Copy/Paste Moves

Please, please, please do not copy/paste move articles. At the top of every page you will find a move button. Feel free to use it for corrections to titles. I've reverted your actions on Zhou Tong (Shaolin Monk) and restored it to the state it should be in. Please note that the change you made is not a "merge", it is a move. Alphachimp 06:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Raja Yoga controversy

Dear Hinduism Project editors,

There is a controversy on the Hinduism regarding Raja Yoga. Please read the debate on the Hinduism discussion page. Your comments are requested on the Hinduism discussion page to help resolve the controversy. Thank you. HeBhagawan 15:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Kaifeng, Jerusalem

I definitely think Dr Urbach would inform those who were interested in his project that he was going to be releasing his film. I think he would be most enthusiastic for whatever financial assistance you may give him. A little often goes a long way!

Best wishes,

Albert

Image:Shi dejian.jpg & Image:1decheng 26 .JPG

What was the exact wording of the permission you were given?Geni 22:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Ching's reply:
"As for usage of the picture, we need to be credited with our copyright prominently displayed and a hyperlink back to our site."
Doc's reply:
"I have no problem with your using that photo of Shi De Cheng. I appreciate your asking, and your making the appropriate credits."
(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 23:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC))

You probably want to use {{Attribution}}.Geni 23:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! That is much better. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 23:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC))

Leitai

I agree that it was more than just entertainment and that fighters died, but it also served the function of public and court entertainment for non-participants (and income for bookies!). My teachers' family were former Manchu military and preserved the old traditions, I've fought "modern" leitai in China (and did pretty well), and teach youngsters in our club the techniques if they ever want to compete - so I've got background experience from which to comment. --Fire Star 火星 00:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Francombat etc....

I'd contact Fire Star 火星 or some other administrator to get a ban put in place, obvious use of sockpuppets should be sufficient to get the WP stuff stopped. I'd advise that you contact myspace admin about abusive contact there too. It may even be possible to get law enforcement agencies involved, since attacks on multiple websites is clearly harrassment and may be covered by your local laws. -- Medains 09:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

After a cursory look it seems like there is some sockpuppetry going on. I'll keep an eye on things for the next few days, and put some "suspected sockpuppet" tags on the anon IP's pages (when I find the template). If it keeps up, we'll make a request at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser. Incidentally, I hadn't looked at the leitai article in a while, it has been expanded into a nice article! --Fire Star 火星 13:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, looking into things a bit more, User:Francombat has obviously also been editing from an anon IP, but it seems more like they don't know what they are doing than trying to be deceptive. Again, I'll keep an eye on it, and if any insults get worse here I'll start adding warning messages and if necessary start blocking. --Fire Star 火星 14:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your message. I sent User:Francombat a talk page welcome (with links to the entire body of Wikipedia policy) in reply to a message from him in the hopes that reading through them he will realise how noob the position he is coming from seems wanting to drastically change an existing (and pretty darn good) article. I also especially highlighted WP:AGF for him, which is what he needs to consider in future most of all. I hope things work out, I know how things like this can rub the wrong way so I appreciate your restraint in going through channels to deal with the situation. I hope we can bring him round to editing the Chinese martial arts articles collegially instead of unilaterally. --Fire Star 火星 22:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I also lifted the {{User WikiProject Martial Arts}} userbox from your userpage. Cheers! --Fire Star 火星 22:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)