User talk:Graham87

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Reference Errors on 31 May[edit]

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Hello sir,I want to say thanks to you and especially the DALE CARNEGIE and his entire team. Thank you very much for this book because this book give me a new way of life . I didn't have a words for thanking you and all the team which gives us a fabulous book. I want to say something to you if you don't become angry respected sir, i request you to start the classes on HOW TO WIN FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE" in INDIA. Again thank you for reading this and sorry for any mistake in vocabulary or in grammer or in language. JASPREET KAUR (B.Sc Non- medical student Ist year) PUNJAB (INDIA) — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:24, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2014-05-28/News and notes and Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2014-05-28/Featured content[edit]

I just wanted to check: I've been doing featured content and helping out with various other bits of the Signpost for a bit. Since I saw you had made a screenreader fix to News and Notes, I wanted to check: Have you noticed any screenreader issues, particularly in the Signpost's Featured content section, that I should try to avoid in future? Adam Cuerden (talk) 16:18, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh, good! Glad to hear it! Adam Cuerden (talk) 16:28, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Port Arthur massacre[edit]

Have you been following the talk page and seen this crazy article?[1] Dougweller (talk) 08:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller: No I haven't ... that is hilarious! Graham87 09:09, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Baroque and Beyond[edit]

Do you have time to help with Classic 100 Baroque and Before (ABC)? Countdown currently underway. We have lost User:GFHandel who was so helpful with these. Developing the table is tricky. Cheers, (talk) 04:30, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! I am listening too. I started the table and have added some of the choices to it but the countdown barrels along so steadily that it needs more than one person to keep up. Did you notice that the ABC website has a link from each music choice to WP? That puts us in the spotlight! (I daresay not all the individual articles are up to scratch.) (talk) 05:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for catching up yesterday. I was out and couldn't. Have caught up with the whole countdown and also finalised the annual overall table. Let me know if you find anything wrong. Although the program notes have not yet been linked to the way they were last time, we have done it for another year! Yay! (talk) 09:19, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Category order[edit]

Thanks for your note. I wish AWB had a facility for sorting categories, especially given that it does have one to "add" categories. I did make a point of looking at the cats, and if they were already in alphabetical order, to manually edit AWB's work to keep it that way, otherwise I just left it. That's really the only option when you're adding a cat to hundreds of pages, else the job would take for ever. I suspect most people using AWB to add cats don't bother to do even that. FWIW, I don't think that trying to keep cats in order by "importance" really works, as this is very subjective, and not helpful at all where there is a large number of cats. In any case Category:Male triathletes is not one of huge importance, so leaving it at the end is not a big deal. --NSH002 (talk) 06:15, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Follow-up: I see that Wikipedia:Categorization of people#Categorization schemes states, "There is currently no consensus about the order in which these categories should be placed at the bottom of an article." No surprise there! -- NSH002 (talk) 08:38, 8 June 2014 (UTC)


Hi, could you please usefy the deleted version of Shōninki for me. I'm working on a new article of the same name, and would find it helpful to refer to the old one. Thx! Snori (talk) 20:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, new text should be acceptable now I think. I have re-created the page. Snori (talk) 10:24, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 13[edit]

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re. George Francis Train, Wikipedia article.[edit]

Hi Graham87,

I'm not quite sure which reference you're talking about: is it GFT's parents and three sisters dying of yellow fever in New Orleans, in 1833, or is it the one about Adeline Train being his cousin, not his sister?

"Around the World with Citizen Train - The Sensational Adventures of the Real Phileas Fogg", by Allen Foster (ISBN I-903582-II-3), refers to all of GFT's family members dying in New Orleans (pages 14-16).

If you Google Encyclopedia Britannica, it says Adeline Dutton Train Whitney was born in Boston in 1824, " a prosperous merchant...", and died March 21, 1906, in Milton Mass.

Hope this helps!


George Train

P.S. George Francis Train is my great great grandfather: I only joined Wikipedia to straighten out his early life and explain his family ties in Boston. — Preceding unsigned comment added by George.f.train (talkcontribs) 22:20, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Need to copy a simple wiki article to[edit] is an article about the new Egyptian Minister of Antiquities and we should have our own article. What's the best way to do this? Copy and paste with an attribution and a list of the 2 editors on the talk page? Or? Please ping me as I might miss your reply otherwise. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 09:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

@Dougweller: I've imported the Simple English edits to Mamdouh Eldamaty using the importupload right (which I have due to my other importing work), and tweaked the article a bit. Graham87 10:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
(watching) I say on the talk page from where an article is translated, if it's a different language, - then the history can be found, example talk:Tatjana Gsovsky. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that works too. I'm generally not fussed about which method is used, but importing seemed soconvenient in this case. Graham87 11:32, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
I didn't hear about importing here yet, but in German, every translated article needs an import procedure, which has all edits in the history (unless it's by the same user), example Trommelralle, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Graham. Dougweller (talk) 13:49, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Redirects and article names[edit]

Hi Graham87, thanks for finessing the article names and redirects I've made over the last while. In the case of Bob Ray I realized after I added the parenthesis that his name was sufficiently different from Bob Rae the politician (their names can be accidentally confused, as I had done) that I tried to revert it, but my attempt at reversion got mired in the WP software commands and I gave up intending to go back to it later. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 13:03, 18 June 2014 (UTC)


Hello, your absolute pitch tells you it's in F major or F♯ major ? Fort123 (talk) 19:41, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Kings TOC[edit]

I see you beat me to the page to fix the TOC. FYI... Disambiguous pages have their TOC on the right side. The info can be found at the bottom of the MOS:DABORDER section. Bgwhite (talk) 05:40, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

@Bgwhite: OK, thanks for letting me know. Graham87 06:23, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Hello. Vegetarian list discussion.[edit]

Hi! I thought I'd move the discussion here, so an admin is right there and involved. Thanks, and good to meet you too. And hello again to LeadSongDog and LazyBastardGuy. Thanks everyone for the lessons on minor edits, I wasn't aware of how tight the definition was.

See also. I guess some of us older guys still love See also sections, and I usually look at those and templates of pages I come upon. Lots of people do, if they are done right they are a valuable tool for people reading the pages. So adding people from a recognized and well-monitored page of lists seemed fine. With the vegetarian list, that would be a two or three day job. Looking at every entry, making sure either the page itself had vegetarian data on it or the reference was a good one. May I suggest a compromise, taking everyone's comments, including my own, into account. To allow a See also listing if the person was or is at least a mid-major advocate or activist for vegetarianism, in terms that they self-identify in a prominent way that they are vegetarian and do it on various occasions. Gandhi, for example, would assuredly self-identify as a vegetarian, and advocated in for people in his movements. So it is part of his self-identity. For many of the people listed it is part of who they are, and they go out of their way to work for it as a cause. How about if we just put the list on the See also pages of those individuals. It may be likely as relevant as if an actor is also an architect, and speaks at architectural conventions or meetings, and writes or speaks on radio and tv as an architect. That person' See also page may include a link to "List of architects' and not cause any concern. Can we draw the line at that or close to that? Thanks for considering it. One personal note. When I was adding the list to the pages I also leaned a lot of things I didn't know, many things in fact. My findings allowed two template additions, one a writer on the vegetarianism template, the other, one that's kind of cool. I see that Swami Satchidananda, who I was privileged to have met on quite a few occasions and stayed at his ashram once - maybe the only person I've met who had no ego, or if it was there, was a minor irritant to him and nothing to pay much attention to. So, I see that Swami actually opened up the Woodstock Music Festival in '69. I say "a ha!", check the Woodstock template and, as I thought, he wasn't on it. Popped him right in there. Things like that happen when you work on going through lists, and that was a fun one. This is the longest note I've ever written on Wikipedia, so, good to meet everyone, and maybe we can work out something that all of us will say "that's cool". Thanks again. Randy Kryn 22:04 23 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd agree, as long as a see also section is already present and contains listings like that. Perhaps it'd be better to add an advocates section to {{Veganism and vegetarianism}}? Or is it already too big? Graham87 00:45, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
@Randy Kryn: Thinking about it some more, the vegetarianism/vegan navboxes act as see qalso sections on their own (per the relevant guideline). So yes, it'd definitely be a better idea to add articles to them rather than using see also sections. Graham87 00:56, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Eek. There would be hundreds of names on there. Before you remove all the See also additions to the List of vegan entries please consider how many there are and, more importantly, what interest in has gotten from the readers. The clicks on the 'List of vegans' (and like I said, the list of vegetarians isn't as major a lifestyle change and how people self-identify) since I worked on it last week have gone up as much as 350 to 400 percent. That's the positive impact of lists being added to See also. Over 1,300 to 1,500 people a day, the vast majority of them coming to the page since those edits, have found that page of interest enough to click on it. That means that the concept of See also is not a bad one, but is alive and very fruitful. I remember for years before Wikipedia I wanted to see a full listing of vegans somewhere, and apparently lots of people are like me. So can we expand this talk before you remove hundreds of edits? Thanks for considering that. Randy Kryn 1:05 24 June 2014 (UTC)
The vegetarianism template is a good one, for sure, but an advocates section would be huge, even with the ultra-famous added and not the one-man bands and tenors. I'm not as interested in the vegetarian list, but was willing to put in a couple of days on it. People like Gandhi came along too early to go fully vegan, which they would have done eventually (Gandhi, at 134 years old, would really enjoy my lentils and rice). Vegans, on the other hand, almost all self-identify as vegans. It's part of who they are. So See also's on vegan's pages, especially those who advocate (and that would be the majority of them) seem very appropriate. Can't we expand this talk to more admins and moderators? And although I'm a vegan I just got around to that task, the putting the list into the See also sections, and there has to be a better way than just slashing them right out again. It's late where I am, and I have to go, but please wait a few days for this to be discussed fully. Thanks. Randy Kryn 1:24 24 June 2014 (UTC)
I've just noticed this message ... it can be hard to tell whether a page view spike is due to humans or bots following the links, sometimes, but I'm willing to grant that there may have been some more human interest regarding the list due to your edits. It just sets up a slippery slope of people adding their favourite lists to see also sections that I don't want to go down. I can't really think of an appropriate board for this, as the admins' boards are more for administrative issues ... perhaps the dispute resolution noticeboard? Graham87 01:29, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
The spike in clicks is up at least 300 percent, over a thousand more people a day from an average of 325 to 350 a day. This shows a true interest in such a listing, that many people who have an interest in someone's life and work want see other "celebrities" with a similar lifestyle. I'd like to take this to others. For example, you removed "List of vegans" from the See also of Howard Lyman, one of the many people who is a major advocate and whose life work is talking about the benefits of veganism. Howard Lyman was the person I mentioned earlier, who was taken to court in Texas. See also is a place for lists, responsible editors put appropriate lists in See also, and the List of vegans seems very appropriate to pages of almost everyone on that list. I cry in my beer (well, not crying, and I don't drink, but I found someone's elses beer and will now cry in it) (never mind, it's American Budweiser, tears can only improve it). Randy Kryn 9:33 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I've just removed them all, which I would have done yesterday if I'd known about these errant see also entries then. The navbox is a far better solution for highlighting prominent people associated with veganism/vegetarianism. Frankly I see additions like this as just a way of getting around the deletion of the vegans category last year. I'm not the only person to remove these entries for similar reasons. Earthh, Walter Görlitz, and Dwpaul, among others, have also made similar removals. Graham87 09:36, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
  • It doesn't show any increase in interest. I saw that see also thing being removed, and then went to the article it was linking to just to see what was going on. A lot of others probably did the same. There is no reason to be spamming that page everywhere. You need to just have a category made for those who identify themselves as a vegetarian or vegan, then those interested in finding more people like that could click on it. Lists of musicians shows there is a list article for every location a musician could be from, list of musicians by type of music, and by time period. At Lists of actors you can see how many list actors could be on, based on nationality, ethnicity, industry, or even things like List of actors who played Santa Claus. If the person had a successful business also, you have various list for business people. Astronauts have List of astronauts by year of selection. But none of these people in any of these list have a See Also section linking to any of the list they are on. So why do it with vegans? Are you trying to promote an agenda? Dream Focus 09:57, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
The list of vegans is up in "views" by over a thousand a day since the See also's were added. Long ago, back in the 20th century, I was interested in seeing a list of vegans or a list of vegetarians, and the only lists around had the same couple dozen people on it. Now that Wikipedia actually has such a list there are thousands of people who seem to have the same inquisitive notion about looking at such a list. Many other lists are also under the See also sections, that's one purpose of the section. Anyway, folks seem adamant that this was somehow a bad thing. I'll look at the list of actors and musicians, they must be numbered in the thousands, thanks for mentioning those. Randy Kryn 12:12 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Graham, I saw the mention of the deletion of vegan categories, which I wasn't aware of (I don't follow Wikipedia politics and voting pages), so my listing had nothing to do with that. Why the attacks on vegan pages? And on the list of actors, I found one which is a good candidate for See also's, the James Bond girls! Randy Kryn 21:02, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
People's dietary habits are not considered defining characteristics for categories. I'm not sure what you mean by your comment about the Bond girl article, but it does not need a see also entry to Lists of actors and any articles about the Bond girls really should have a link to the article about the concept somewhere in the text ... remember: the see also section should not repeat links found elsewhere in the article. Graham87 02:03, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi Graham, I was also wondering why List of vegans was being removed. It's a popular page by list standards and diet often is a key issue for the people whose page it has been added to. Having it only in the vegetarian navbox makes it less likely to be noticed. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:18, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
@SlimVirgin: I can't think of any other list that is highlighted that way on Wikipedia, especially not in a biography. Also, the guideline on see also sections says that "as a general rule, the "See also" section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body or its navigation boxes." Graham87 02:41, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi again. The mention of 'veganism' in a page doesn't seem to be the same as 'List of vegans', as one article is about the diet itself and the other is a list of adherents and activists. Two different animals of the same species maybe, but the two can't mate (to give a metaphoric twist to it). There is another rule or article somewhere that mentions that See also's, categories, and templates are three different ways to highlight a page, and can all be used for the same subjects (different people look at different things. I, for one, seldom look at categories, but usually look at See also's and templates). This has been an interesting discussion, and makes me hungry. Thanks again for thinking this through. I still believe that at least allowing the List of vegans See also on pages of people who are public activists in some way may be a good mid-point. Randy Kryn 12:25, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Request a copy of deleted page[edit]

Hello Mr/Ms Admin. I am writing to request a copy of deleted page Southeast Asian Sea so that I could use its materials on the page South China Sea. Please post the copy in my user talkpage. Thank you.--Gandalf Tóc Trắng (talk) 06:40, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

June 2014[edit]

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Disambiguation link notification for June 27[edit]

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Wikipedia:Missing Wikipedians[edit]

Not sure what you wanted to do, but you blanked the entire section. Werieth (talk) 17:00, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

@Werieth: Thanks for the note, fixed. Graham87 05:27, 28 June 2014 (UTC)


Hello. I appreciate your note on my Talk page and know we're both operating in good faith. Consequently, I responded on my Talk page (at User_talk:Froid#Commas) as well as opened a discussion at Talk:How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People#Commas_debate. Cheers, Froid (talk) 00:55, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

July 2014[edit]

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