User talk:Grayfell

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Hello! Please leave new messages at the bottom of the article. Don't forget to sign your posts by typing four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~. Thanks. Grayfell (talk)



Hello, Grayfell, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! --Elkman (Elkspeak) 04:23, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

List of Six Sigma certification organizations[edit]

Reported to WP:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Could also be reported to WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring due to WP:3RR at this point. -- DanielPenfield (talk) 20:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. That was my intention, but I was on a tablet, and wanted to wait until I was at a proper keyboard to finish the process. Looks like it's all taken care of, at least for now. Grayfell (talk) 21:07, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Grayfell, The page is just a list of Six Sigma Certification organizations. I am the President of such an organization and am trying to add a link to my organization in the section that lists for-profit organizations ( There is no conflict of interest because there are no opinions or editorial content, just links. I would like my deleted content added back to the page and I understand that you can do that for me. Thank you. TucsonTom (talk) 01:31, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

@Pyzdek: Hello. That article (and Six Sigma before it) have a history of spam. When editing the article, you'll notice that there is a comment repeated several times throughout the page: Note: Please list only nationally accredited universities that are certification service providers in this section that are mentioned or recommended in high-quality secondary sources There are many certification companies out there. Some are legitimate, but many are 'cert-mills' that are not worth mentioning, and a rare handful are malicious scammers. Because lists like this can be so easily manipulated, writing the article first is often given as a prerequisite for inclusion in a list. Regardless, in order to insure that Wikipedia doesn't become an indiscriminate directory of links, we require solid, reliable, WP:SECONDARY sources discussing your program. Simply linking to your site is not good enough. Having looked at your website, I would caution you that BBB ratings and similar are also not good enough.
And I must disagree, you most certainly do have a conflict of interest. You are adding your institution as a form of promotion. It is up to you to demonstrate that you can still edit neutrally in spite of that conflict. You may find this article: Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide useful. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 01:54, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Regarding your edits[edit]

- As I stated when I made the edit, "Swami" is not just an honorific but is actually part of his legal name (his legal name is Swami Chidanand Saraswati, not Chidanand Saraswati). I of course however am not going to share his passport or his other offical documents from the Government of India to prove this... - I had actually tried to change the page's name back to Swami Chidanand Saraswati, as it had originally been, but could not figure out how to do. - If "Swami" is going to keep being deleted, than that is fine too, it's just slightly incorrect. - I will work on getting secondary references up which confirm his positions in his various organizations. Thank you for letting me know instead of just deleting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shantiparmarth (talkcontribs) 04:32, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Too Cool! edits[edit]

Hi, thank you for taking a look at the page and fixing what you considered to be promotional. I take issue with your replacement of "up-and-coming creators" with "new creators" - it's inaccurate to say that the people who worked on Too Cool! shorts are all new. Many of them have been around for years, but have not found mainstream success independently, hence, up-and-coming. Other descriptions more accurate than "new" could be: emerging, undiscovered, rising, etc. I will be changing it back to "up-and-coming"; please do not just revert that edit to "new."

In addition, I don't know why you added the end date back in - that was a factual error. The shorts are still in development, so they have not ended. So I'm changing that back too.

I did not realize press that includes interviews with creators counts as a primary source, so apologies for that. No one told me that in high school! I'll get on adding actual secondary and tertiary sources to the articles.

Finally, I think you reverted an edit that included fixing misspellings of names, so I'm changing that back as well. ~~~~. Thanks, Lrfranks

Nope, the name misspelling was all you. You reintroduced it when you added the YouTube links. Copy-pasting, especially from an external editor, can cause problems like that. "What you consider promotional" huh? Tell me how you really feel, why dontcha? About the term "up and coming" and all of your proposed replacements, review WP:PEACOCK. The term used needs to impart objective info, not just make them sound dynamic and buzzworthy. Thanks for correcting the series end-date issue, but, uh, since you have knowledge of the series that is not in any attached sources, if you are involved with Frederator, you need to review WP:COI. Regardless, the article's talk page is the place to discuss further edits. When signing your name on a talk page, just type four tildes, don't copy-paste them, don't use an external editor like Word, and dont use HTML code, it defeats the purpose. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 19:00, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Laffer curve[edit]

Grayfell, I've changed the citation to the GPO. If you remove this important clarification again, I'll know you have a non neutral POV. If you don't, thank you for helping me improve the text and citation. VikingExplorer (talk) 16:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I have responded to the content changes on the article's talk page (Talk:Supply-side economics) where this discussion should be held. My objective is to make the article clear, concise, and neutral using verifiable sources, and making veiled ultimatums and sweeping generalization about my motives based on two edits is not going to get you anywhere. Instead, please discuss the edit on the article's talk page to resolve the issues. Grayfell (talk) 23:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


Dear Grayfell. Media has continously been using Gunmen as a term to negate the negative nature of the actions of these individuals, namely terrorism. Terrorist actions have a clear unbiased definition while gunmen has the implication of a benign nature instead of a violent action to achieve a political goal.

I think wikipedia needs to address this in changing the term gunmen from its content or an article on the media policy to insert gunmen to certain groups the media has a bias towards.

For example gunmen is almost always used to describe Palestinian terrorists, but not IS terrorists. This is a clear bias which I think needs to be addressed.

Best regards


Santana134 (talk) 06:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

First, the very first sentence of my talk page asks you to leave new messages on the bottom of the page. Following that simple request would've been a good show of respect and willingness to follow Wikipedia's guidelines. Second, this is an issue that should be discussed on the ARTICLE'S talk pages, not on my talk page. Conflating Palestinians with IS members is muddying an already confusing issue. Wikipedia is not a place for simplifying complex issues. Again, discuss this on the articles' talk pages, not with any one individual editor. Hopefully it's obvious why, because even if you convince me, (which is going to take a lot more than recklessly using the notion of 'media bias' without any sources to support your claim) you're then going to have to convince all the other editors all over again. This is an incredibly sensitive issue in a topic that has already been exhaustively discussed before. Look over past discussions, be patient, and pay attention to where you're saying what you're saying. Make sense? Grayfell (talk) 06:54, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:1RR on Men's Rights Movement[edit]

Information icon Thank you for your contributions to the encyclopedia! In case you are not already aware, an article to which you have recently contributed, Men's rights movement, is on article probation. A detailed description of the terms of article probation may be found at Talk:Men's rights movement/Article probation. Also note that the terms of some article probations extend to related articles and their associated talk pages.

The above is a templated message. Please accept it as a routine friendly notice, not as a claim that there is necessarily any problem with your edits. Thank you. -- EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC) MRM is under a one-revert rule. You have reverted twice in the past 24 hours. Please be cautious in your reverts. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, I had forgotten about the one-revert rule. Grayfell (talk) 04:31, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Knee scooters[edit]

Hi can you tell me why the link to the page on knee scooters being better than crutches was removed? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:32, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello. Sure, I can do that. The link is to what appears to be an individual blog, (which in Wikipedia jargon is a WP:SPS- a self-published source). It didn't help that the blog endorsed a product and had Amazon affiliate links prominently featured on it. Wikipedia doesn't use blogs (except those by established experts in certain circumstances) and Wikipedia is not a platform for promotion, which this appeared to be. It might help to familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's guidelines on external links and verifiability. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 19:54, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Judy Carter's page[edit]

I was not trying to violate copywright laws. My goal was to revert back to the old page that had links to her books.

to have a wikipedia page you must so noteforthyness. Judy has published four books and the links to her books depict this. So i re-established them manually (talk) 21:31, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Nope. Assuming I'm even reading that correctly, that is flat-out wrong. The book articles have nothing to do with notability. You obviously knew how to make Wikilinks, since you just did it, so the claim that you restored all the promotional content as a way to put those back is silly, bordering on insulting. Grayfell (talk) 21:56, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm in the process of finding secondary sources for the wikipedia page and fixing up the articles. Who decides if the pages get deleted or not Nerdypunkkid (talk) 18:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

You should've added reliable secondary sources when you created the articles, and not wait over a year for someone else to notice. Your talk page demonstrates that you've already been banned once for creating promotional articles without any secondary sources, so I don't accept that you didn't understand how this works. As for who decides if the pages get deleted, there are a bunch of links right on your talk page, and the nominated articles, explaining all of that. If you don't understand those pages, how about this? I'll answer your questions when you answer mine. Grayfell (talk) 21:08, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes I was banned in 2008 when I created the article about Dan Nainan i believe. It was a work in progress article which I intended to start and work on over a the course of a couple of days and not complete within the time of posting. As a result i wrote things with out properly citing them and it kept getting taken down, after speaking to an admin orangemike i believe they told me about wiki scrapbook which i used to complete the article and then once it was completed and cited it was posted and accepted.

When I created the articles: The Message of you, The Homo handbook, The Comedy Bible, Standup comedy the book. I viewed other wiki articles of comedy books and saw that they only had one or two citation for instance: Brain dropping by George Carlin only has one reference and the book Three Times Carlin also by George Carlin only has an amazon listing as the reference. So that what i used a model for creating the wiki articles of these book, the ISBN number and a reference or two. When i posted them they were not nominated for speedy deletion and in a day or so there was a tab on the talk stating that the book are within the scope of wikibooks. Then I was shocked a year later when you came along and not just nominated them for deletion or started a discussion on talk that there need more citations but just delete them all together.

What other questions you have for me

here one for you the latest edit on the Homo handbook why did you delete a good citation

Nerdypunkkid (talk) 20:29, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Please stop formatting these talk page entries with bullet points, it is extremely distracting. You might want to review Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, but just try to make it look like all the other entries on this talk page.
Why were you adding WP:REFSPAM to articles? I linked to the question, did you actually read what I wrote on your talk page? If not, please do.
Sometime when you make an article, it takes a while before anybody else pays attention. That doesn't mean the article is now invincible and can't be challenged. You're basically trying to sneak-in articles hoping nobody notices. Does that sound like how Wikipedia should work to you?
Find sources that are more reliable, and offer deeper coverage. If you don't understand why some sources are good and others aren't, you need to figure that out before going any further.
Yes, Brain Droppings needs more sources. However, that book was written by a very famous comedian, and was a New York Times bestseller for almost forty weeks. These are clear indications of notability. The four Judy Carter books gave no such indications. The Homo Handbook looks like it might squeak-by the deletion process, but it will have to be rewritten to be less promotional. All four articles, as well as Judy Carter itself were written like advertising. Wikipedia isn't a place for advertising.
I have no idea what you mean by "wikibooks". is a website for open-source textbooks, which has nothing to do with what we're talking about. None of the four book related articles have talk pages, and I don't see anything similar on your talk page.
The source at "" was useless. It was an extremely questionable site, and as a source, it didn't support anything that wasn't already in the article with better sources. We're not looking for any-and-all sources you can find about the books. We're looking for quality sources that actually add new information for building an article. Maybe Help:Referencing for beginners would help. When creating an article, the sources have to actually establish that the subject is significant. Not just passing mentions or listings in directories. You have already been explained this on your talk page, and I'm betting other places, too. So what is the source of confusion? Grayfell (talk) 21:55, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


Hello, sorry, i'm not contributing to WikiPony anymore. And my lvl in english is not good enough. Also, i don't want to become fair game or SP Lilyu - siffle.svg

I'm just a reader now. Intro of article looked pretty much straight forward "evil cult", rather than actually trying to address the subject of the article which is "Scientology in France". One element of the subject eating the whole article. Now it looks a little better after your editions.

Started on wrong foot ? mmmh, ARC breaks happens. I didn't edited an article in a long time. One edit, revert, edition war.Stop trolling 2.svg Haaaa, da good old WP.

May i suggest a new section be added in the article about the organization of the church in France, and their web of associations. (secondary sources consider it an element worth of mention). The early history of Scientology in France can be found in the book La secte: secte armée pour la guerre : chronique d'une "religion" commerciale à irresponsabilité illimité by fr:Roger Gonnet. Names of those associations can be found on Scientology websites and in the Journal officiel de la République française that publish the creation/modification of any association in France. The parliamentary reports and MILS/MIVIDULES reports lengthly discuss the topic of those associations and their actions.

Looks like i don't have the lvl in english to write it, also wiki syntax and habits are different.

I prefer tea! Lilyu - grr.svg

Bye bye. --Lilyu (talk) 09:42, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

You are Fucking up all Size 14 related projects[edit]

Whats your problem with this band? --Shingovertheworld1 (talk) 22:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm trying to make the articles less crappy. If you've got a problem with that, please discuss on the article's talk pages, and familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's policies. Grayfell (talk) 22:53, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Stop fucking editing articles you have no knowledge over the subject on. --Shingovertheworld1 (talk) 22:56, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Be nice. You don't get to decide who is and isn't an expert. Like I said, if you have a problem with my edits, discuss them. Copy/pasting the old versions isn't going to accomplish much. Grayfell (talk) 22:58, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

John Harvatine IV[edit]

Hi! In an article regarding the Harvatine post and the xbox programming, it's states Harvatine as a director. Can that be added back in? Thanks of you help.

Chuck Sample — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chuck sample (talkcontribs) 23:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

@Chuck sample: No, I don't really think so. The source doesn't say he's the director. It says he's one of the creators, along with Eric Towner. It also gives mentions Seth Green and Matt Senreich very prominently.
That's the problem with all the sources: they mention Harvatine as a duo with Towner, or as part of Stoopid Billy Stoodies. There's very little about Harvatine by himself at this point. Without some more specific, reliable sources about Harvatine, the article might end up being turned into an article about Stoopid Buddy Stoodies, or merged with Stoopid Monkey. Grayfell (talk) 02:17, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you again for your help, I can't say that enough. Regarding Harvatine as a director, doesn't this seem to make it clear enough?? Just checking:

Sony Pictures Animation is developing a stop-motion “Superbago” movie with “Robot Chicken” exec producers/animators John Harvatine and Eric Towner directing.

That's from this:

And what about this article to help his cause, or is it too fluff for him:

Actually, I like that Fortune article. You're right, it's kinda fluffy, and interviews are WP:PRIMARY, but it helps give some perspective on how significant he is to Robot Chicken. Reading that, I think that the Stoopid Monkey article really needs to be updated.
The thing with Superbago is that it's not out yet, so we need to avoid giving WP:UNDUE weight to it. If it had it's own article (Superbago), that might change things, because we could explain it more clearly. We can mention that he's co-directing, along with Towner, but even that seems premature to me. Grayfell (talk) 02:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Sorry. To be clear, the article already mentions that they are directing it. What I mean is we should avoid any further info unless it's supported by solid, reliable sources. Grayfell (talk)

I really appreciate you explaining things, and I hope I've showed enough of my boss's stuff to keep his page up. Off the record, I really loved your comment: (cur | prev) 21:47, 22 October 2014‎ Grayfell (talk | contribs)‎ . . (1,531 bytes) (-94)‎ . . (→‎References: Having attended an industry "Awards Soiree" is not worth mentioning.) (undo | thank)

That was pretty funny. He won an award that night, or the studio did, but that was a pretty funny comment. Also, I was looking today, he has been nominated for two emmys, as it states on his IMDB, but I'm having trouble showing his name in the credits of the 2013 one. They just don't seem to have a record of that online. Also, can I upload a picture of him from a panel at this years Comic Con? And should I keep digging for more articles with him in it? He was on a LA BUSINESS JOURNAL article but I can only find a printed one online. Just trying to help, and thanks again for your time, I'm sure this isn't an easy job.

@Chuck sample: I'm glad I can help. I am, at heart, a pedantic person, so having an outlet where I can use that for good instead of evil is a source of satisfaction for me.
Pictures are very fussy things. Wikipedia:Picture tutorial is worth going through for the technical aspect. It helps to understand that Wikipedia:Image use policy is very strict, since it's all about copyright violations and how Wikipedia is used. Volunteers who are familiar with it are often overworked and under-thanked, so it tends to be an unforgiving process.
Put simply, you should not upload a picture you personally do not have the rights to, and you should not upload a picture you're not comfortable being used for a wide variety of other purposes. This is a very common mistake, but it usually means that you, as a person, are the one who took the photo. That's a simplification, but not much of one. Like I said, fussy. From past experience I suggest taking the time to go over it, and make sure your ducks are in a row before submitting a picture to save yourself aggravation and wasted time.
More meaty sources are good. Passing mentions, or more stuff that just says he's part of Stoopid Buddy without any further info, are probably not needed, but anything more substantial is worth considering.
More importantly, you should also read Wikipedia:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide, because you have a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. This doesn't mean you cannot edit, but it does bring with it a lot of challenges. Wikipedia is not a platform for promotion, and attempts to use it as such don't go over very well, so please, please understand what you're getting into. It was pretty obvious when you mentioned where he grew up and what high school he went to without any sources, but it's greatly appreciated that you're open and transparent about it. Some editors pretend they're "just fans", but they're not fooling anyone, and it's just awkward.
By volume, most of the massive wall of text above this discussion here on this talk page is me dealing with conflict of interest stuff, so I hope you can understand why I'm emphasizing this point. Taking a look at the COI guide will help. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 07:56, 23 October 2014 (UTC)


Hi! Thanks for your comments. However the Big Agile Toolkit is not spam. I added the resource to the agile resources page in sincere expectation that readers will have easy access to a resource for deploying projects at scale using agile principles. The web resource to which it links is a full free copy of the resource and it is free. So I hope you will agree that there is no financial gain. Im not expecting you or I to voice our professional credentials to evaluate or recommend agile approaches. I am happy to do so if this helps however. Pcfmuser (talk) 16:26, 27 October 2014 (UTC). Thanks. Martin Leonard

@Pcfmuser: It appears you are confused about how Wikipedia works in general, and specifically about how external links work in articles. "Big Agile Toolkit" is an external site, which you linked to inside of an article. That's almost never acceptable, per WP:EL. If you are unwilling to read that guideline, just note that the other items listed in the "Agile methods" section of the article all link to other Wikipedia articles. Your link was to an outside site, and is therefor inappropriate. Write the article first, although please, please include solid WP:SECONDARY sources when you do. The current Draft:Big Agile fails to do this, as one is a link to your site, and the other is a dead link of unknown significance.
Additionally, it doesn't matter if it's free, and you appear to be operating under an overly-narrow definition of spam. The link served to promote a website without any secondary sources establishing its significance. Further, the link is to a site which lists Martin Leonard as the author. The site is aggressively listing affiliate links. Your username matches the domain name of the "about" link on the site, which offers commercial services. You are clearly not impartial, here, and pretending otherwise is counterproductive. WP:REFSPAM is still spam.
Wikipedia uses reliable sources, not personal expertise or professional credentials. If there are reliable sources that establish your expertise, so be it, but mucking about with WP:AUTOBIOs rarely ends well. Grayfell (talk) 21:48, 27 October 2014 (UTC)


Hey there, I read your comment on my page and I'd just like to say (as unbelievable as it may sound) that the edit onto the page 'Poster' wasn't me. I am a student at junior high, and most of the other students in my class are rather immature. So having left my laptop open one of my friends decided to edit a page using my wikipedia account. Thank you for your understanding Xaverin (talk) 20:28, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Edit: Grayfell is a really cool name! Xaverin (talk) 20:30, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

@Xaverin: Thanks! Grayfell is either another name for Grani, Sigurd's horse, or is the name of Sigmund's horse, or they are the same horse, depending on which source you're reading. Really, though, I just chose it because I thought it sounded cool.
It's not unbelievable at all. I kinda figured that when someone replaces the word 'art' with 'fart' junior high is probably involved, so no worries. If you don't remember to log out, or keep a closer eye on your laptop, you may eventually get banned if that kind of thing happens regularly, but it's not a huge deal, and many respected editors have that kind of thing in their history. Grayfell (talk) 08:54, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.[edit]


This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is "India Against Corruption". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! --Mdann52talk to me! 08:28, 8 November 2014 (UTC)


Have you seen this? Thought you should know in case you haven't. FYI, I'm mentioning it in the next Signpost. Gamaliel (talk) 17:03, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Huh. Weird. Thanks for the heads up. Grayfell (talk) 21:21, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Question about what "promotional" means[edit]

I have a quick question about what "promotional" means. On the Wikipedia page for "stickers" and for "street art" I had added links to a non-profit, alternative street art stickers museum called "Hatch Kingdom." You had taken it down saying it was too promotional. Yet there are lots of pages that are devoted to places like the Guggenheim Museum, etc. What would be an appropriate way to let people know that a museum devoted to sticker art exists? Also, this is the first time I've done anything on Wikipedia, so please forgive any errors of terms of signing my name, etc. Not sure about the four tildes, for example.Stickerkitty (talk) 17:36, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@Stickerkitty: Hello. There's a mismatch between the museum and its website. Hatch Kingdom's website appears to be about buying-and-selling, with info about the museum almost an afterthought. This is why it looks like WP:SPAM to me. The site appears to be for a small, primarily commercial website which is also a museum. It's a cool idea, but the site has very little info about the museum itself, other than confirming its existence.
If you would like to include info about the museum, one good place to start is by finding WP:RELIABLE, WP:SECONDARY sources about the museum. Books, newspapers, journals, magazines, that kind of thing. The Guggenheim, per your example, has many, many sources talking about it. The Guggenheim also publishes reliable works about notable art and artists, which is why it can sometimes be helpful to link to it in other articles. If you're looking for sources, be cautious of blogs, zines, and forums, since they are usually self-published sources (WP:SPS), and are rarely usable. I did a cursory search for sources, and didn't find anything that jumped out at me, but don't let that discourage you from looking deeper. Also, I don't speak German, which would be helpful.
Signature looks good. If you have any additional questions, let me know. Grayfell (talk) 23:29, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Revision 635666845 on Multilevel Marketing page that you undid on 11/27/14[edit]

Hello Grayfell,

The editor who submitted this revision (‪the oddly named 2601:d:ca00:1b36:202f:5d4e:964:7a1a‬ ) asserted that the orginal language was "heavily biased". You undid the revision claiming that the new wording no longer represented the referenced sources attributed to it. Fair enough. However, these are not only "heavily biased" sources, they are grossly inaccurate. This includes, but is not limited to: No MLM company "requires" the purchase of products (not one), none have been publicly criticized for legally challenged for "price fixing" since FTC v. Amway in 1979, only Amway allows their reps to sell training and motivational tools (thus 99% of MLM companies do not), and even they have substantially limited this activity in recent years. It's also nonsensical to quote these sources as to "cult like" activity that suggests participants are brainwashed into not quitting in light of the actual, common, and completely contradictory criticism that the vast majority of MLM participants quit in their first year (and most of them quit in their first 90 days).

Furthermore, one of these sources is a heavily discredited article by Dean VanDruff which contains numerous verifiably inaccurate statements written by someone who has never been an MLM participant, nor possesses any level of expertise in the subject, that was written twenty years ago! Nor has VanDruff written anything about MLM before or since.

All of this begs the question, why not maintain the revised text, which was indeed more neutral and appropriate wording, and simply remove the heavily biased, grossly inaccurate sources it is attributed to? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwave (talkcontribs) 23:45, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Hello, @Mwave:. I'm not sure where you got the idea that people don't quit cults, that's actually very common. Most people who join new religious movements leave within a couple of years (Apostasy#Other religious movements) much like MLMs and/or pyramid schemes. That doesn't really matter, though, because Wikipedia is based on WP:RELIABLE sources, NOT personal anecdote or opinion. You're making a lot of claims, but you're not including any sources. Your personal expertise is not WP:VERIFIABLE. A quick glance at your edit history shows that this is worth emphasizing. You should review Wikipedia's polices on sources: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. Judging by your username, it looks like you have already tried to WP:SELFCITE at least once,[1] and to a WP:SPS that should not be used as a source.
Regarding the edit in question: The article contains many, many sources supporting the assertions in the lead. To clear-up any confusion, the lead is intended to summarize the body of the article, and for that reason inline references are not strictly needed there. The edit in question did not remove the reference to price-fixing, neither did it reference the sales of training material. Having said that, many MLMs sell training and "motivational" materials as a requirement for qualifying for bonuses (Vemma, for example[2]) not just Amway. Again, I have no idea where you got that factoid. If you think that companies which engage in unpalatable behaviors must not be MLMs, that sounds to me like a case of No true Scotsman.
If you have a problem with a specific source you should take it up at Talk:Multi-level marketing, or WP:RSN, not here on my talk page. Do you seriously think that only MLM reps are qualified to write about MLMs? If so, you have some major misconceptions about how Wikipedia works. Again, the place to propose specific edits is on the article's talk page, not here. This is so others can easily find and contribute to discussions. If you have questions about Wikipedia in general, I will try to answer them, but any comments about a specific article may be deleted from my talk page at my discretion. Grayfell (talk) 05:23, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Sigma Beta Rho[edit]

Hello Grayfell, I am the National Director of MIS for Sigma Beta Rho Fraternity, Inc. and I created the web content for both our national website and this page. Please do not alter this page content again as it is against content approved by Sigma Beta Rho. I am not copy-pasting official content this is content i created. Do you have any affiliation to Sigma Beta Rho?

@Sigrhoemt: Hello. You appear to have some serious confusion about how Wikipedia works. Wikipedia is for anyone to edit (not just affiliates) and it is WP:NOT a platform for promotion. Neither you, nor your organization WP:OWN the article in question, and regardless, you do not have the right to insert previously published material into Wikipedia. A quick Google search shows that at least some of the material in question has already been published elsewhere. It's a not productive to pretend otherwise. Material was obviously copying from [3] and other places, which is not acceptable. Even if you are willing to donate that material to Wikipedia, which is not something that should be taken lightly, it would still be far, far too promotional to use in a Wikipedia article. Grayfell (talk) 06:57, 8 December 2014 (UTC)


Hello, I do in fact think my edit to the page was constructive. It relates to America's Game and the changing history of the 100 year old rivralry. It is honestly becoming the tradition of the United States Military Academy,something that rarely happens.Tsunami2014 (talk) 04:30, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

This edit? Sorry, I don't agree. It was written as a non-neutral joke, it was not supported by a reliable source, and it wasn't a minor edit. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Introduction to understand more about editing Wikipedia. Grayfell (talk) 04:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand how you reported me on your page when YOU invited ME to reply to your claim. Tsunami2014 (talk) 04:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

You added weak jokes about freebasing and penis length to an article, and then claim it's not vandalism. What did you expect? Grayfell (talk) 04:53, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I actually did neither of the two. I expected for free speech to not be inhibited on a site by an individual who cries "vandilism". I would love to hear your argument for te "weak jokes about freebasing and penis length" I believe you are taking it WAYYY out of context. If you youtube "Army Tsunami 2014" you will see how cadets unified under the song during the football game. Tsunami2014 (talk) 05:04, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Penis length and freebasing jokes added right here: [4]. "Free speech" huh? Wikipedia:Free speech doesn't give you the right to vandalize a group effort. Find a reliable source about the Army/Navy thing if you're serious about it. Grayfell (talk) 05:07, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

If you paid the slightest bit of attention to detail you would know that the edit was not made under me. You have made a false report and it is undair. That was one of my careless classmates but it was not me. I should not be held at fault for another users edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsunami2014 (talkcontribs) 05:10, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Right, but you restored it. That info was removed and you put it back. You are responsible for edits made with your account. Find a reliable source (Youtube isn't going to cut it) otherwise leave it out. Grayfell (talk) 05:13, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Touche but here's my rebutal on the source part ->If youtube is not a reliable source then Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. What sir/ma'am/robot would you consider a reliable source? The Duffel Blog perhaps? Yik Yak or would you like for the POTUS to make a statement? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsunami2014 (talkcontribs) 05:16, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

You're right, Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, and should not be used to source other Wikipedia articles. Read Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Help:Referencing for beginners. I think we're done here. Grayfell (talk) 05:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Lawrence Lockman[edit]

Why did you replace "criminal behavior" in the title with "tax protesting?" Intentionally refusing to pay your income taxes is a crime, as is encouraging others to do so. One can protest without committing a crime, so the former title is more descriptive than the latter.Jiminyjillickers — Preceding undated comment added 23:35, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I've responded at Talk:Lawrence Lockman, which is where the conversation should be held to include more editors, and facilitate building WP:CONSENSUS. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 23:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)