User talk:Gregbard

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Update[edit]

I am doing some research into the issues arising from my edits which cause this block. In particular, I will be studying Wikipedia:Copyrights, and Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing. I will also be making some other inquiries so that I might understand these issues better. Apparently, several unsuccessful attempts to unblock could result in a block of my ability to edit this talk page, so I am proceeding more slowly and carefully (although that particular element of the appeals process is very questionable as to its necessity and basic fairness.)

I also just want to state for the record that the preceding comment titled "Fifth Pilar" was not made by myself. I have never edited Wikipedia under any account, including by using anonymous IP accounts, other than "User:Gregbard" which is my real name. It does makes me feel better in this troubling time for me that someone apparently wanted to make a point on my behalf. I don't think the people supporting this block will find that it compels their conscience, however, because the fact that "Every past version of a page is saved" only contributes to their concerns. Their other point about upholding the "spirit" of the policies is an excellent one, and I think this particular case should serve to bring that point into sharp relief. Perhaps in considering that point, someone's conscience will thus be compelled.

I still feel that although, strictly speaking, an administrator is able to justify blocking me given particular edits made by myself and the content of the policies, that this particular case would have been better handled by communicating with me in a civil manner. I believe the evidence and my long standing and prolific contributions support that view. The situation could have been handled much less heavy-handedly. I will get back to you a formal appeal at some point soon, and with the findings of my research. Greg Bard (talk) 19:33, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure you want that last paragraph there? It's enough for me to remove talkpage access, in part because it shows that you do NOT understand your block whatsoever, and are simply railing on against a policy that a) you agreed to, b) that is not optional, and c) you were well aware of the panda ₯’ 19:56, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
As I have stated, I am currently doing research, so if it seems as though it is the policy that I do not understand, then please forgive and withhold judgment and action until I make my formal request with my findings. The last statement is not a formal part of any formal appeal. The claim that the administrator who blocked me, and those who supported her could have just communicated with me civilly doesn't actually support the conclusion that I either understand, or do not understand the policy in any way. All that it means is that administratively, they had a choice, and chose a very heavy-handed approach. Please do not confuse political considerations for judicial ones. I have stated that "an administrator is able to justify blocking me given particular edits made by myself and the content of the policies" so that actually supports the conclusion that I do understand that a policy has been breached by myself. I am going the extra mile here by going through a more extensive study of the policies. I am finding the environment to be extremely authoritarian, if you can't appreciate that distinction. Greg Bard (talk) 20:06, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
The "suggestion" an accusation is that you were not dealt with politely and civilly - which is patently false, and thus a personal attack. Hence, rethink that paragraph - those who make personal attacks against others - including the blocking admin - get the pleasure of having their talkpage access revoked. Your choice here: refactor, or I'll remove it for you ... and if I have to remove it, I'll remove talkpage access as well. the panda ₯’ 20:32, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Come on, don't pile on here. I haven't always had the best interactions with Greg, but there's no need to go looking for slights you have to infer. --Trovatore (talk) 20:55, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
"The "suggestion" an accusation is that you were not dealt with politely and civilly - which is patently false, and thus a personal attack." — That is emphatically not a personal attack. Please restore talk page access. Carrite (talk) 00:16, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Actually, read WP:WIAPA Tim. Also, you know as well as I do that Greg's talkpage access has not been rescinded. the panda ₯’ 00:56, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
It's enough for me to remove talkpage access No, you would-be totalitarian disgrace to the admin corps, it is not. — Scott talk 14:56, 19 June 2014 (UTC) (No stake in this issue, have never encountered Gregbard before, saw this discussion mentioned over at Wikipediocracy.)

Just chiming in that there is one possibility that Greg could consider in the interim. Over at wikisource:User:John Carter I have a freaking huge listing of reference works currently in the public domain which as of a 1986 guide to reference works were still considered in some way useful and valuable. Pretty much by definition, the articles from those sources can be copied word for word with proper attribution. Admittedly, in several cases, they will also be outdated (big surprise), but for a lot of articles about, for instance, medieval political figures, defunct states, and the like, they can be very useful. John Carter (talk) 22:16, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Even if you are blocked here you should still be able to go over to wikisource and starting either proofreading pages from works which have already been added or uploading files that aren't there yet and proofreading and separating out content into individual articles. Some of the artices from Encyclopedia Britannica and some of the other reference sources would be very easily transormed into article content here. John Carter (talk) 15:13, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Gregbard, the above is a great idea. Lest there be some bizarre understanding of my comments above, my goal has been to try and get you to NOT say something that would lower the chances of this block removed. I have tried to invite you to rethink your strategy, and then remove posts that are unproven accusations. Your future unblock - and I'm sure it will occur - would take those comments into account, and personally I'd rather not see them negatively affect your request. I understand that you believe that you were dealt with in an uncivil manner, but my reading of the history of this talkpage doesn't show that - and trust me, I'm often accused of being on the aggressive side of civility enforcement. Nevertheless, your goal is (or should be) to move forward. In any unblock request you need to do 2 things: a) understand what led to the block, and b) show a "way forward". Doing positive work elsewhere is always a plus - indeed, it used to be a requirement of the standard offer.

As far as I know, there's nobody on the project who wants you permanently gone - "indefinite" does not equal "infinite" - it means "until the community is convinced that the behaviour that led to the block will not recur. Obviously, this starts with the 2 elements of an unblock noted above - especially awareness. If there are elements of your interaction with the blocking admin that I'm unaware of that has you concerned about civility, let me know (including diff's) - otherwise, I recommend you drop that strategy, and focus on your way forward. Cheers the panda ₯’ 22:54, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Look, Greg did not in fact assert that anyone had treated him uncivilly. You chose to pull that inference out of his remarks, and it's entirely possible that he did mean to suggest it, but he did not say it. He certainly did not say that anyone in particular had done so. That makes "personal attack" a pretty big stretch, in my opinion (you can't personally attack an unspecified person). --Trovatore (talk) 19:40, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
And you know, honestly, even this is not really the most important point here, though I think it's enough by itself. Here's the real key thing: Suppose for the sake of argument that Greg had accused a specific person, say Moonriddengirl, of being "uncivil". He didn't, but just suppose.
That cannot possibly be what is meant by the line about "accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence" in WP:WIAPA. That's for cases where someone has alleged facts not in evidence. Here there is no dispute about the facts, just their interpretation. If you can't even make a controversial characterization of the facts, that's effectively the same as saying you can't complain about actions that have been taken. That can't possibly be the intent. --Trovatore (talk) 03:51, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Would it be possible to allow Greg to continue with wikiproject philosophy and category upkeep if he agreed not to add (or draft) any content whatsoever pending the ongoing assessment?—Machine Elf 1735 02:51, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

...And template editing.—Machine Elf 1735 14:38, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Category:Philosophy maintenance categories[edit]

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@User:Gregbard will we need these??? —Machine Elf 1735 14:31, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Pundit pivot[edit]

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Orphaned non-free image File:InPhO-logo.gif[edit]

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File permission problem with File:David Gregg, Jr.jpg[edit]

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File permission problem with File:Mary Beth McDonald.jpg[edit]

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Kelly, I corresponded with the clerk of the City of Vero Beach via email, explaining to her that I needed images for Wikipedia. She sent me a source which I clipped into the various ones you see at List of mayors of Vero Beach, Florida. I forwarded that email to the permissions address, and I also sent a request to the clerk for a more formal statement. That really should suffice. I am currently blocked from doing anything else about this issue. Please do follow up on this issue and take steps to prevent any unjustified and unfounded deletion. Greg Bard (talk) 20:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Greg when ya coming back? You do know that unfortunately, YOU cannot send that release of the images, the owner does...the project needs you back; when's it going to happen? the panda ₯’ 21:18, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
The images were requested specifically requested for Wikipedia, and they were sent. They are public documents provided by a municipal officer. I have, in response to this issue, forwarded both emails to the permissions email address. I have also requested that the City Clerk in question forward a more formalized statement to "permissions."
In answer to your other question I have my own: Why should I come back?! I don't expect appreciation, but I also don't deserve to be criminalized. If I am needed so much they should lift the block on their own with my aforementioned statements on the matter having satisfied them. At some point I will make a new request to consider an unblock and make a statement concerning the copyright policy expressing that I have read and understand it. However, I am unable to accept that a block was ever necessary in any way. A simple discussion of the matter would have accomplished more progress on the very issue which it is claimed was the justification for the block, AND it would not have interfered with the many other ways in which I contribute. Just because a policy permits for an action, does not mean that the action should be done. So my question on that issue is 'what exactly has been accomplished by this action?" Greg Bard (talk) 21:53, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Greg, if this was "criminalization" it would be very different, wouldn't it? Wikipedia's requirements for image permissions are strict, for a reason. You don't like those requirements, but you agreed to them. Indeed, nobody asked you to like them. I don't like driving only 100km/h on my local highway, but I agreed to it when I got my license to drive. The best way to change the rules is NOT to keep going against them but to try to get them changed. It may not be successful, but the old thing about the best part about banging your head against the wall is how good it feels when you stop really comes to mind. You may not expect appreciation, but I and others do appreciate what you can bring. The block was a very unfortunate, but clearly required action - it cannot be lifted without a WP:GAB-compliant request. People DID try to talk to you, but as you state again and again, you disagree with the Wikipedia rules. Well, that's a painful wall, isn't it? the panda ₯’ 22:08, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
We don't agree. Your philosophy of administration is extreme authoritarianism, and it has no place in an open community which claims to respect civility. There is nothing "clear" about the necessity of this block, as all of the problems which it sought to address could also have been addressed without the block. Nor am I "banging [my] head" about anything. You don't seem to be paying very close attention to my claims and are hearing what you want to hear. I agree that a copyright policy should exist, and sanctions should be provided for instances where there aren't a dozen other less intrusive ways to address the problem. My case just isn't close to that. It isn't the policy I have any problem with, it's the administration of the policy. Just because a policy permits for an action, does not mean that the action should be done. So my question --- again --- on that issue is 'what exactly has been accomplished by this action?" I was even in the process of addressing some of the issues myself when I was blocked! What kind of sense does that make?!?! I'm sorry panda, but we do not agree on philosophy of administration, at all. Extreme authoritarianism has no place in ANY administration, much less an open community like Wikipedia. It just basic respect for the people who are volunteering. Greg Bard (talk) 22:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
If "authoritarianism" means "respecting the authority of the rules agreed to by the community", then sure. Every single community has rules and norms that are either defined by the community, or are inflicted on the community: no commune exists in a vacuum. The real issue would be if the rules of the community were applied differently to some people than to others (4 legs good, 2 legs bad comes to mind here). Indeed, if you were blocked while we let others get away, then you'd have a valid argument for complaint.
When it comes to images, Wikipedia respects the rule of Copyright Law - it has no choice - it's inflicted on us. We cannot say "we disagree" and flaunt it - we have to respond to the higher authority on this. The community may not like it, but it has nevertheless agreed to a process for ensuring that the Law is maintained, and for ensuring submissions meet whatever various aspect of that law.
You cannot be a member of a community, but fail to follow the processes agreed-to by the community. You cannot perform actions that run contrary to rules that are inflicted on the community, or you create risk for the community as a whole. That's not Wikipedia's fault. We, as members, don't get to choose which "rules" we follow, and which ones we don't. The concept of "open" or "free" does not work that way anywhere, even in theoretical bounds the panda ₯’ 22:57, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I think we have exhausted the usefulness of this discussion. We don't agree on philosophy. You are introducing irrelevant issues into it all over the map. Given my vast experience and education, I really have to claim that it is more my proper role to be educating you on matters of due process and working within the policies of a volunteer non-profit community, not the other way around. You have already shown poor judgment on these matters given your readiness to block my access to this talk page. Thank you for your efforts, but I would strongly suggest you work contributing in other areas of Wikipedia than administration. Be well. Greg Bard (talk) 18:44, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

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