User talk:Infrogmation/Archive March April 05

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March 2005[edit]

Pipil - see discussion page[edit]

I noticed you visited the Pipil article I've been looking after the last little bit. I'm having a hard time finding a solid source. Your user page implies you might be enough of a Spanish speaker/reader to look at the web link - the source, it seems to me, (my Spanish is weak) of the original information. Would you mind giving it a try? Thanks. WBardwin 01:49, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My Spanish is slow and rusty from years of seldom using it, but I'll try taking a serious look at that over the weekend. -- Infrogmation 17:17, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Persistance of Memory[edit]

I know this is out of the blue, but I just wanted to clear up my removal the image from The Persistence of Memory back on 21 October, 2004. The image was somehow removed due to a glitch when the server sputtered out of on me. I was attempting to create a redirect and a blank page was the fruit of my efforts. Somehow the text got revered (I must have c/p'ed it from another window I still had open) but the image was left out. Thanks for reverting my folly and sorry for the extreme tardiness of my reply. Just wanted to clear it up. IKato 07:26, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the belated explanation. -- Infrogmation 17:23, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ward Churchill article[edit]

Hi, I don't know whether Native-American topics are on your beat (I thought maybe so), and I was just wondering whether you have taken a look at this article lately: Ward Churchill. It is full of weird rants, dubious assertions, outrageous POV, even texts copied verbatim from other locations. In short, a real mess. I tried to clean it up yesterday, but my edits were reverted within an hour or two, as I expected. I could go and debate all this stuff on the Talk page, but I can't do the job alone; there are too many POV warriors there. The article urgently needs a few experienced editors to get things under control. Have you got any ideas how to go about it? FWIW, I was away from WP for about six months and I don't know my way around so well now; it is evolving so rapidly. And, a number of familiar names have moved on. Cheers, -- Viajero 11:01, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oh boy. It needs work, but I'm a bit daunted at first look. I'll give that some thought. -- Infrogmation 17:23, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I started a thread on the Talk page. Care to weigh in? -- Viajero 17:47, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'll take another look, but I havn't been following this closely. BTW, might I persuade you to take a look at the es Pipil text mentioned above? -- Infrogmation 18:02, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
WC article a mess now; who, given an opp to make an informed choice would opt for David Victor Hanson's take over those by the likes of Carol Moore and George Lakey? Just goes to show the entertainment value of a village fool doesn't scale; mass media and them sorts of dangerous generalizers (centralized mechanisms manipulable by nonmassesminded masters which remain all too large when uncut and not massively diversified) mess with our heads, hearts and hands.

The imposter, user, "Keith-Wigdor"[edit]

Infrogmation, I need to report to you that the imposter, user, "Keith-Wigdor" has placed a Vote for Deletion of the VfD page and Wikipedia was already given notice back on Feb.20 from the article subject that this user, "Keith-Wigdor" was impersonating him. This user already corrupted the VfD and I need to ask for some kind of investigation. This user's actions is illegal, or am I wrong?24.168.67.238 16:59, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't know off hand if it's illegal, but it seems inappropriate. If you can provide an actual link to where Keith Wigdor says that User:Keith-Wigdor is not him, it would probably be apporpriate to block that later user for impersonation. -- Infrogmation 17:23, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks[edit]

Thanks for the welcome to Wikipedia. It's appreciated.

Voodude 22:22, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

WP:PUI and deletion warnings[edit]

Hi,

There's been a lot of confusion on the Talk:Furry page lately because the image File:Usagi.jpg, which was used by the Furry article, was deleted by User:Quadell. Looking at the deletion logs, it seems that the image was listed at WP:PUI, under the "30 days or more" category. According to the page, notices should have been placed on the Furry article after 15 days. I notice that your edit on February 9th moved many images from "Less than 15 days" to "Between 15 and 30 days", but I believe you didn't update any of the articles using these images. I've left a post on Quadell's talk page asking about undeleting the image; I just wanted to ask that you be careful in the future. -- Creidieki 06:31, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your note. I left a note on Talk:Furry. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 18:05, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I appreciate your post on Talk:Furry, but I feel that it doesn't address the major issue, which is that we were not given any warning that the image would be deleted. This image was deleted in violation of policy. If the Furry article had been altered to include a notice that the image was disputed, I would have tried to find source information for the image. However, I did not have that opportunity, because I did not know the image was disputed. I feel that it is unfair for you to say that a change which primarily affects the Furry article is reasonable because notice was clearly posted in other locations. -- Creidieki 19:09, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You are correct that WP:PUI procedure says the notice should have been put on the page. My edit as to number of days was chronological rather than category related. Someone else had been taking care of replacing images with notices for a while, but this seems to have been neglected. None the less, I'm not sure that Quadell's deletion of the image after the specified time period warrants a major complaint. Note that the image was tagged as unverified for almost a year before going being retagged and listed as PUI for a month. It could just as reasonably have been listed on WP:CP, and, in accordance with the strictest letter of any stated policy, been deleted within 8 days. Unless there has been some change recently, we don't have a mechanism to get back such deleted images, so at this point I don't know what to tell you other than "sorry". As to preventing similar problems in the future, you might wish to put images you upload or find of particular interest on your watchlist so you can be sure to see if they are tagged, and if you see some users uploading images in a manner contrary to our policies try to steer them to an appropriate page explaining things. If you're interested in helping out with procedures, note that there are many things (like replacing 15 day old WP:PUI images with notices) that can be done even without admin access, and volunteers to help with such housecleaning tasks are always appreciated. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 19:42, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dear Infrogmation, I need your advice, please[edit]

Dear Infrogmation, I need your advice, please. I need to know how to start a VfD on an article. Thank you.24.168.67.238 14:56, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Votes for deletion has an explanation of the procedure. -- Infrogmation 16:50, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dear Infrogmation, Need help on creating disambiguation pages[edit]

Dear Infrogmation, Thanks very much for your welcome message.I am a novice at contributing to wikipedia, though I have been reguarly visiting the site.However, I am committed to becoming a regular wikipedian.I noticed that the "Brand Equity" Article needs a disambiguation page to be created. Could you help me out with how to proceed on that. Appreciate your help. Thanks very much. Rajev 15:09, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi. Wikipedia:Disambiguation covers making disambiguations. Help:Renaming (moving) a page may be of use depending on what specifically you wish to do. As article titles here are case sensitive, I notice we have seperate articles at Brand equity and Brand Equity_(Weekly) (Perhaps the first should have a link to the second?). If you have a specific question not covered by Wikipedia:Disambiguation let me know. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 16:58, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks very much Infrogmation Rajev 12:58, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Archimedes Plutonium[edit]

The Grammarbot edit was valid, your revert was mistaken. :-) -- Curps 19:39, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since it was quoting Mr. Plutonium, I thought it should be left "sic". Cheers, -- Infrogmation 19:42, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

First of all, you can't fault the bot for making this edit, because a human (namely me) would and did make the same edit. That is, even if you consider this edit to be an error, it's not a bot-type error than no human would make.

Second, modern editors routinely correct spelling and certainly punctuation of even authors like Jane Austen (who originally titled her book Love and Freindship) or Shakespeare to conform to modern standards. So I certainly don't agree that we need to religiously preserve every typo in a Usenet posting. If Mike Godwin had made a typo while posting Godwin's law to Usenet, or Linus Torvalds had made a typo while posting his first announcement of Linux, these would need to be preserved for all time? Sorry but that's nonsense. -- Curps 19:55, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

PS, I have heard of [sic] being used to after a poorly or odd-sounding word, but not for punctuation and certainly not for spaces. -- Curps 19:55, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I would not say that the bot made a mistake. The bot didn't know it was a direct quote. I did, so I reverted it. I've stated my opinion that such a direct quote should be left as written. You've clearly given it some thought and come to a different conclusion. I'd say it's a point of minutia where we have a difference of opinion. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 20:02, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dear Infrogmation, a message from the artist, Keith Wigdor[edit]

Infrogmation, I contacted the artist, Keith Wigdor and I told him about what was going on in here. He told me that he wanted to take a look at what was happening and that he would make a public statement to Wikipedia and everyone as soon as possible. Infrogmation, please go here and read the March 6 guestbook by Keith Wigdor on his site, the statement to Wikipedia,

http://artenligne.com/@/KeithWigdor

Classicjupiter2 21:36, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Noted. -- Infrogmation 21:53, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Image:Dropship secondaryhull1.jpg[edit]

Hi, you listed these unfree images on WP:PUI, have you tried to contact the copyright holder? If you haven't (and don't intend to), I'll try to email them. Zeimusu | Talk 12:42, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I had left a note on the talk page, but not emailed the user. If you wish to do so, go ahead, thank you. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 16:12, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wigdor[edit]

Hi there - Brookie here - I can't post a vote on the vfd for this - the server wouldn't register a vote for. Brookie 20:33, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Very interesting. Two questions: Have you had any problems making edits anywhere else on Wikipedia? Have you successfully cast votes on any other VFD discussion? Puzzled, -- Infrogmation 16:21, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Looking at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Keith Wigdor, your vote shows up fine. Perhaps it was a cache problem on your end, reload the page if you can't see your most recent edit. (I replied on your user talk page as well.) Cheers, -- Infrogmation 16:28, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Thanks - I suspect it was some sort of cache problem - no other problems eleswhere - kind regards Brookie 16:47, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Infrogmation, any idea on when the Wigdor article is going to be deleted from Wikipedia? The artist already gave a public statement requesting the article be deleted. How much longer does the VfD for that article go on? It really should be deleted, the artist's request to Wikipedia, as well as the number of votes, show that the article should be deleted.Classicjupiter2 02:01, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Infrogmation, Major Problem! user,Daniel C.Boyer went and removed the VfD tag from the Portland Surrealist Group article![edit]

Infrogmation, Major Problem! user,Daniel C.Boyer went and removed the VfD tag from the Portland Surrealist Group article! Then some Anon user, 65.174.35.65 goes and leaves this message in the history's edit summary! I only thought that an administrator can remove Vfd tags from articles. Even the VfD tag, states NOT to remove the VfD tag from article. Here take a look at the history from the Portland Surrealist Group article. I ask that you please investigate.Classicjupiter2 17:06, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

(cur) (last) 15:28, 9 Mar 2005 65.174.35.65 (must be reposted on VfD, if someone wants to do that, starting now. Basis has been changed on page.)

The removal of the vfd tag was by the unlogged in 65.174.35.65 not logged in User:Daniel C. Boyer, but either way I think just putting the notice back as you did was appropriate and took care of it. (If there is a serious problem with the listing, it needs to be discussed in the listing, not just removing the tag without discussion.)-- Infrogmation

Dear Infrogmation, about the, "Surrealist Movement in the United States" article[edit]

Dear Infrogmation, about the, "Surrealist Movement in the United States" article. First, I noticed that the VfD notice tag was removed, then I put it back. Now the article's TITLE has changed from, "Surrealist Movement in the United States" to "Surrealism in the United States". Can you find out what happened? Thank you.24.168.67.238 21:24, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I need to report Anon user 141.219.44.78[edit]

Infrogmation,Anon user 141.219.44.78 went and removed the VfD notice from articel, Chicago Surrealist Group. This is the second time this person removed a VfD notice tag from an article.Classicjupiter2 21:33, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)


Dear Infrogmation[edit]

As I have just begun working on articles, edits, etc. in the last couple of weeks, I have a lot to learn. I put in quite a bit of work on the United Fruit Company entry as well as the post-Aristide section of the Haiti entry and have learned a great deal from seeing your edits to my edits. I have a few questions with regard to a new entry I made for the philosopher Jacques Ranciere. It is not coming up when I search for it. I hope that means the wikipedia just has not been updated yet. I uploaded a jpeg to append to it, but could not find it once it was uploaded. Can you take a look? The United Fruit entry looks much improved. I enjoy seeing out shared efforts. Piezo 18:11, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Note that Jaques Ranciere duplicates Jacques Rancière; I think the second is the prefered spelling, and content should be merged into that article and the first title made into a Wikipedia:Redirect to the 2nd title. Take some time to look over the Wikipedia:Manual of Style and similar links on your user talk page, then feel free to ask if you have additional questions. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 18:27, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hello[edit]

Hi. Suffice 19:47, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hello to you. -- Infrogmation 19:50, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Victorian fashion[edit]

In reply to your message on my talk page -- you suggested that I save the "information" on the page. The problem is that most of the information is wrong. Are you really sure that you want Wikipedia to propagate misinformation? Zora 07:53, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Of course not. But if and when misinformation is already wide spread, discussing it and explaining why it is wrong is appropriate. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 15:25, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

New Orleans: featured article candidate[edit]

I nominated the New Orleans, Louisiana article for featured article status. Since you're also a New Orleanian, I was hoping you could take a look and fix whatever you might think needs fixing and then comment at its candidate page.--Kevin M Marshall 20:48, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Surrealist sock puppets[edit]

Have you noticed a striking similarity between User:Classicjupiter2 and the 24.168 surrealist editor? I mentioned this on User talk:Classicjupiter2 and they deny being the same person. But based on their interests, writing style, dislike of Daniel C. Boyer, and tendency to come to you for help... it seems really likely to me that Classicjupiter2 is a sock. Seeing as how they are VfD'ing a lot of articles, and some successfully, perhaps something should be done (at least it should be made known to the voters in these VfDs that there is a strong personal vendetta behind the nominations). Would you mind sharing your opinion on the subject? ~leifHELO 22:13, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, certainly Classicjupiter2 is the long time unlogged in editor especially active on the Keith Wigdor article and its talk page. I didn't know there was any dispute as to this. They don't seem to actually have denied it as far as I can tell. -- Infrogmation 00:48, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Infrogmation, you know my IP is 24.168.67.238. Note: see, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Alai#Dear_Alai.2C_your_advice_on_a_technical_issue Classicjupiter2 02:51, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I already answered this guy user:leif question. He is wrong. I am this IP. The accusations this guy makes about other IP's is wrong. I am one person and I have no vendetta against Daniel. I like Daniel, I disagree with his position on surrealism that exists today, but I agree with his position on surrealism's main aims and principles and Breton too. I even made an addition to the surrealism article, I am not anti-surrealist, nor am I purging all surrealism from Wikipedia. The nominations for VfD stand on the issues as indicated by the votes. I accept the feedback and votes regarding the Chicago Surrealist Group and Surrealist Movement in the USA. The others, well, you see the votes. I am thinking about creating an article on COMBAT AI in ROLE PLAYING, still researching.Classicjupiter2 01:43, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please take note of the correlation between 24.168.67.238 and other IPs, that I posted at User_talk:Classicjupiter2#Identity ~leifHELO 20:53, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

jiohdi colon_health[edit]

I want to apologize for the stir, I never intended to leave the article on this site. I was actually trying to help my mom get my brother to try some alternative therapy and give it an air of legitmacy using this site, I did intend to delete the article after printing, but thanks to all of you, my brother is likely saved from my mothers witch craft (^_^)... the source was some medical book she had so I am not at all certain that the overall reaction was warrented but it is likely some copy right violation. I will not be doing that again...but I am glad for the info it generated and got my mom to be more careful in what she recommends to my brother. as to my other contribution, its been more than a week since they posted a possible copy right violation for emotion:mechanics, which is something I wrote... my back ground is 3 years electronic engineering student, 15 years psychology studies and 10 years as an ordained minister of the christian fake, er..faith.


Hello[edit]

It seems that you left a message on my IP as I was not identified user:greatpatton, however I don't understand the purpose of your message. The last edit I made under this IP was the 16/03 and was a normal edit (interwiki with fr:) can you please explain me this message as normally all traffic comming from this IP can only be done by me. the IP =>212.85.152.44 user:greatpatton

I don't recall. As I see no remaining edits for that ip# on that date, it looks like that's something in reply to a speedy delete sandbox type test apparently from that ip#. Sorry I don't have more info. -- Infrogmation 03:11, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanx for the welcome![edit]

Thank you Infrogmation for your kind welcome! Billions 18:35, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Mardi Gras Indians thumbs[edit]

Thanks for adding the gallery to relink the thumbs, the layout looks much better —I have added the front of the "Wildman" costume to it, so it's back with its partner. Have improved the layout further by adding section headings to the text. redcountess 21:17, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)

VfD on Afrophobia[edit]

Hi!

I just wanted to announce that I've overhauled the afrophobia article, and we're brainstorming future additions on its talk page. Some Wikipedians have changed their votes after seeing the revamped article. Binadot 07:49, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi Infrogmation, Just wanted to stop by and ask for your input/review of a couple articles that were somewhat related to the afrophobia article. They are negrophobia, colorphobia and pigmentocracy. It seems that my efforts are infected with the VfD virus. You welcomed me when I first registered at Wiki so you seem like a perfect neutral person to share their thoughts. Thanks. --Nazikiwe 01:00, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

April, 2005[edit]

Pipil[edit]

I agree that Teotihuacan was (probably) not Toltec, - although three out of my four sources said otherwise!! I put a weasel word "...at the time of the Toltecs..." which is technically true as they might have sacked the place. Will look for more confirmation, but Toltec info is at best fuzzy. Thanks for looking it over. WBardwin 03:54, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bad maps[edit]

Your help and common sense is needed. User:Kelisi, has been producing some maps and trying to replace the CIA maps for several Caribbean and South American countries. In my opinion these new maps (which have more detail than the CIA maps) are vastly inferior. They use garish colours, terrible decorative fonts, use a horribly large pixel size and are generally ugly and crowded, and look terribly amateurish and like they were produced on a Commodore 64 or something. Here is a list of maps he has produced . http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AContributions&target=Kelisi&hideminor=0&namespace=6. Perhaps the worst example is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Brazilmap.gif . Bizarrly these maps seems to have support from a few people who have been trying to push through their inclusion on several pages. Please see talk:Panama and talk:Honduras. Jooler 09:11, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks[edit]

Thanks for the welcome! I have added a license to my photo, and I will make sure in future to deep-link to appropriate galleries on my website. Please take a look at Orangutan and tell me if this is acceptable, before I go re-doing the other edits. Isewell 17:47, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Image:LoloFerrari.jpg up for deletion[edit]

I put it there. Can we please find another picture to put there. I agree with you that the picture does illistrate the main reason why she is in the encyclopedia (her breasts) but it will offend some people. A clothed picture would be just as good. Indeed, I had only seen clothed pics of her and was amazed.

Thanks for letting me know, though I didn't upload it. If you have what you think would be a good replacement image in mind go for it. -- Infrogmation 17:37, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How could I got about finding a replacement ie. how do I know if an image i find is copyrighted or in the pulic domain? And what is the procedure now? Sorry if I shouldn't keep reverting but I don't know what the procedure is.

Thanks[edit]

Thanks for the welcome. And thanks for helping to build this place. Pspeck

Thanks for the welcome Infrogmation! Dangerous Angel 10:35, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Copyvio matter[edit]

I'm looking for an admin (or other) who is knowledgeable about wikipedia copyright violation issues. The situation is that user:DickClarkMises posted text to Stephan Kinsella and marked the edit (dump of auto-bio from stephankinsella.com). The referenced website has a copyright notice (since amended) which appears to me to be at odds with the GFDL. The subject of the bio has appeared (he says he is not the original editor) and claims that the text, which he wrote, can be used by Wikipedia and he claims that his copyright is GFDL compatible. Furthermore, he has repeatedly removed the {copyvio} tag. Any suggestions for how to proceed? Or another admin to ask? Cheers, -Willmcw 22:29, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

PS - I later asked user:Duk about this and he replied on my page, user_talk:Willmcw. Cheers, -Willmcw 03:48, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

Help with WP:CP[edit]

Is there a way I, as a non-admin, can help with maintenance at the copyright problems page? Perhaps I can help with investigating them. Thanks, Rad Racer | Talk 01:36, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/First Photograph[edit]

I just got a high-res version, and the image is public domain. Please support the high-res version. --brian0918™ 17:00, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hubert Julian[edit]

Was wondering why you reverted Trinidad to Trinidad and Tobago. Guettarda 15:00, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I reverted to listing "Trinidad" as his place of birth, as from what I have read that was the island he was born on, before the formation of the nation of Trinidad and Tobago. I thought that was more specific. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 22:30, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I didn't quite notice the date - I'd have to check what the name was in 1897. Tobago was already joined to Trinidad at that stage, but whether the offician name was "Trinidad and Tobago" or not is something I'm not quite certain of. I feel that the name was changed at that stage, but I can't say so authoritatively. A lot of links to Trinidad should be to Trinidad and Tobago - we call it "Trinidad", but that is neither accurate nor very fair to Tobagonians (no wonder they keep talking about secession). I'll leave it as is for the moment, until I can find something authoritiative. Guettarda 23:35, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Template:Welcome[edit]

Hello,

  • 1- I have a probleme editing Template talk:Welcome : paragraphs #5 to #10 of "contents" do not appear on the talk page, although they appear when I click on the "edit this page" link.
  • 2- I have suggested a change on that template, and I am waiting for feedback on this suggestion. Theo F 11:51, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Giant Steps[edit]

Aloha. I just saw the discussion you folks had on Giant Steps (song). The page move was not done correctly, and the original author seems to have been lost from the history. Also, I do not agree with moving the song to the title of the album for a number of reasons, many of which I've discussed on User talk:Mako098765. I understand that you have an issue with the word "song", but that appears to be the appropriate naming convention. As a temporary compromise, I have moved the page in question to Giant Steps (composition), and redirected the original title back to the album, which unfortunately is now named Giant Steps (album), but at least the page histories are now intact. Perhaps we should add a section to the naming convention policy page about Jazz music if you think this issue will come up again. Since you are an admin, I would appreciate it if you could delete the redirect and move the album page back to the original title based on the reasons I've given on Mako's talk page. Please let me know if this is an issue. --Viriditas | Talk 10:04, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

User talk:Infrogmation/Personal info[edit]

Hi, Infrogmation. Just so you know, for reasons best known to themselves, an anon has just created this page, seemingly as a message to you. I'll let you deal with it. Smoddy (Rabbit and pork) 14:29, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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