User talk:Iry-Hor

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Dwarfism in Ancient Egypt[edit]

Hi. Have you ever read this one? I wanna write an english version. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:37, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

lol, I knew dwarves were special to Ancient Egyptian. Unfortunately I don't speak German well enough to read the entire article. Note if you want to translate it, the title may be better as "Dwarves in Ancient Egypt". Iry-Hor (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
I have started here. Your first impression? regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:36, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Looks good! It needs only a few English twicks here and there so let me know when you create the article so I can correct a few minor English mistakes. Iry-Hor (talk) 16:39, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, as soon as the article is done I will inform you. I think the best label for that article would be "Dwarfs and pygmies in Ancient Egypt". Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:41, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes that's a good title. Iry-Hor (talk) 16:49, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Hey. I'm as good as through. ;) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 18:13, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Nephiliskos Put it up on wikipedia, then I will be able to go through it for the English. Nice article. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:54, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Iry-Hor Here it is: Dwarfs and pygmies in Ancient Egypt. :-) but two things bother me: The hieroglyphs, especially the mini-graphic with the dwarf, are all kicked to the left edge of the box. In German version it works perfectly... The second thing is: Could you help me to put the article on "Did you know?"...? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:55, 1 September 2014 (UTC) PS: a nice catch phrase could be: ...that Dwarfs and pygmies in Ancient Egypt were treated with greatest respect?

Ok so first thing I don't know how to put the hieroglyphs in the middle yet I need to figure this out. I will do a bit of English corrections here and there and then will put the thing up on DYK. Iry-Hor (talk) 18:17, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Nephiliskos I did the English corrections and the hieroglyphs are now centered in the box. We need a better lead which quickly summarizes the various sections of the article. Then we can put the article up on DYK. While reading the article I thought of the following hook that will definitely attract a number of people: ... that Dwarfs aided by apes were employed as zookeepers in Ancient Egypt?. This is so crazy it will be a hit. Iry-Hor (talk) 20:26, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Iry-Hor: Sounds endeed cool, but better write then: ...that Dwarfs aided by guenons were employed as royal zookeepers in Ancient Egypt?, because "apes" is too unspecific and "royal zookeeper" sounds even more bitchin'. ;-) And, yes, it IS crazy - but true! Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:32, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes I agree with the royal stuff and "guenon" might be a better term than "ape" but I fear that most people do not know what a guenon is. It is not a very common term to talk about monkeys and apes. Iry-Hor (talk) 20:33, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it allowed in en.Wiki to use links within the teaser? If so, you can simply link "guenon", "zookeeper" and "Ancient Egypt". I rather insist on "guenon" because it was the only race of apes held as pets and the article specifies on guenons... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:55, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes alright no problem I will upload ...that Dwarfs aided by guenons were employed as royal zookeepers in Ancient Egypt?, we need to extend the lead a bit though. Iry-Hor (talk) 05:42, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

How about this: ...that Dwarfs in Ancient Egypt were assisted by guenons and worked as royal zookeepers and even as conductors?... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 06:20, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Might be too long, also the article does not really say they were conductors rather they give the tempo to the musicians. It is quite different. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:57, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

How about: ...that Dwarfs in Ancient Egypt were assisted by guenons and worked as royal zookeepers and juwelers?... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 07:04, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Nephiliskos alright I just wrote the lead and put up the article on DYK, see here, bottom of the list just before the 2 September entries. Be on the look out for the review, which should be quick an pose no problem, but sometimes the reviewers ask for a few stuff. I think the article could also be put up as GA candidate, but this is your choice. Iry-Hor (talk) 07:07, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Iry-Hor Thx. About an GA-Nomination: My German friends admonished me to look for the references, for an nomination they are too unspecific and include too much pages. I had to work over them. And Udimu told me, that there are lots of interesting things about dwarfs concerning certain deity cults. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 08:52, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

About the Handbuch[edit]

Hi, I have seen and appreciated your recent edits on the 16th Dynasty, but I have some concern about the status given to von Beckerath's Handbuch: for some reason I don't think that it really is freely-available; I rather think that someone scanned and uploaded it on Mediafire without any permission. If this is the case, obviously is uploader's fault but I don't think that is a good idea to link the page on a wiki... --Khruner (talk) 17:14, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Ok should I remove the link from the article or simply remove the comment saying that "it is freely available"? Because I cannot use Helck's ordering of the kings since I don't have access to his paper and furthemore it is older than von Beckerath's. Iry-Hor (talk) 17:45, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
I think both the things should be removed, obviously not the bibliographic ref for von Beckerath but just the weblink within. Just for taking, for the other links I don't see any problem as these refers to PD works (Legrain) or Google Books legal excerpts. PS, nice diagram-map by you! Khruner (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Actually I took the map from the spanish wiki, translated everything in English and only modified a few other minor things. See the maps in the article on the Abydos Dynasty and the 14th Dynasty for maps I did entirely from scratch. Iry-Hor (talk) 19:02, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


Say, would you do me a big favour? A have drawn a special hieroglyph for "dwarf", it's an png-file. I totally fail to upload it on Commons, so it would be usable in every Wiki? I would send it to you via mail. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 09:28, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Sure that's nothing, send it to me I will upload it immediately! Iry-Hor (talk) 10:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Ummm... would you send me an email first? Your "send this user an email" somehow has gone missing... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 11:00, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Nephiliskos:Sure what's your email? Iry-Hor (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2014 (UTC) (talk) 09:11, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Iry-Hor: I have sent you several files with special hieroglyphs, hope you like them. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 11:58, 26 August 2014 (UTC)


Hi Iry-Hor, I've just met another Apepi and I'm quite shocked since I did not know of his existence. As a strong supporter of pharaoh Apophis as an unique figure who changed his praenomen twice, I am relieved seeing that your new ruler here is neither Nubkhepeshre nor Aawoserre nor Aaqenenre, and now I'm also pleased to know more about him. Thanks! Khruner (talk) 20:51, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Khruner: Well this 'Apepi is definitely obscur and I did not know about him until I realised there were 3 kings named "Apepi" in von Beckerath Handbush. The first is "Nubkhepeshre", which von Beckerath sees as a distinct person from Apophis and I don't understand why von Beckerath believe this. Could you perhaps explain what were the arguments for equating Nubkhepeshre with Apophis? The second is this 'Apepi, and the 3rd of course is Apophis. Now Ryholt and Baker belive Nubkhepeshre = Apophis and 'Apepi is distinct, being placed in the 14th Dynasty. Also the predecessor of 'Apepi on the turin canon is 'A[...] maybe he was yet another Apophis. By the way if you find a picture of any of the 5 scarabs of the "King's son Apophis" that Ryholt is referring to, it would be great to illustrate 'Apepi's article. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:51, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I believed that this scarab belonged to Apophis's son but now it looks like it could be one of the five scarabs mentioned here; maybe Apophis' son and 'Apepi are the same person indeed (although this statement seems uncompatible with the Turin canon which placed many other kings after him). About the "trinity", I have to say that other Egyptologists support the distinct identity of Apophis (Grimal, Gardiner, Hayes). At least von Beckerath admit that Aawoserre and Aaqenenre were the same person. many other scholars (Habachi, Ryholt, Schneider, Schlogl and possibly Wilkinson and Bietak) accept the trinity. Perhaps a pharaoh who surely changed his praenomen once is more susceptible to change it again, and the topic of the three praenomen is always centered on the force/strenght/power of Ra. I personally believe that Nebkhepeshre was his last praenomen adopted prior of his death but it is only a thought of mine. Khruner (talk) 08:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
So the scarab indeed reads "King's son Apophis", I will check in Ryholt's book if I can find the sources of his scarabs and confirm that this is one of them. What I don't understand though is why you say that this scarab is referring to a son of Apophis? As far as I can tell "Apophis" here is the name of the son, not that of the father. Iry-Hor (talk) 08:50, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Petrie attributed it to "Prince Apepi", and Apophis had a son who is generally called in this way to distinguish him from his father. In some sources (unfortunately I forgot which) I read that this prince is attested by some seals. Khruner (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Khruner Ryholt says that only a single seal of prince of 15th Dynasty is known so I guess this seal is likely to be one of 'Apepi. Iry-Hor (talk) 14:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I guess so too... Khruner (talk) 17:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Unfinished Northern Pyramid of Zawyet el'Aryan[edit]

Hi. I just saw that you stil list it under "in progress", but the work is done. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 18:48, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Wow thanks yes I did not see the article since a looonnng time. It is quite nice now! Iry-Hor (talk) 18:52, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I did some English correction for the article. Iry-Hor (talk) 20:10, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Besides: did you get my email with the hieroglyphs? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 21:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Nephiliskos: Yup! here they are: dwarf, crown, skorpion, stuff I have NO idea what it is. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Yayyy!!^^ Awesome! Aah, the last hieroglyph is an sun umbrella. It's an extremely rare hieroglyph, appearing most time in pre- and early dynastic times. It's part of the title he/she who's under the king's umbrella or (attested only once!) he/she who carries the king's umbrella. In earlier times it was thought by scholars that the umbrella-glyph depicts some sort of double blade axe, but a) this kinda weapon were never used in Egypt and b) it would be a f*cking creepy title: he/she who's under the blades of the king... :-D Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 09:36, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeeess! That makes sense, a person so close to the king as to be under the same umbrella as him ( I can imagine that in the Egyptian sun, the king would have slaves / lowly people holding an umbrella for him. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Ummm, Egyptologists such as Helck, Wilkinson and Morenz admonish us to not call any servant of the royal court as "slaves". In fact, the Egyptians didn't even have a term for "slave", to have and use real slaves was common from Middle Kingdom onwards. I get always pissy when people stereotypically claim for example that the pyramids were built by slaves. They were built by professionals. The Egyptologists also point out that NO low ranked person was allowed to hold the umbrella and the vans of the king. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

One question: your edit with Maspero's quotes is indeed fascinating, but what is the source? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

You are right I had forgotten to add the reference. Here it is: Alexandre Barsanti, Gaston Maspero: Fouilles de Zaouiét el-Aryân (1904-1905), Annales du service des antiquités de l'Égypte (ASAE) 7 (1906), pp. 257–286, available online copyright-free. There is plenty more informations about the excavations in it, in particular all of Barsanti's drawing of the inscriptions and king names he found are available c. p. 280. I will upload a few very soon and the article will shine with tons of pics. Iry-Hor (talk) 07:04, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

If you do, please copy them in black and white, ok? Just for better look. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:33, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Nope I will upload them in the color that they have in the original document. I have no other way of doing. Iry-Hor (talk) 12:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

13th Dynasty Saqqara pyramid[edit]

Hi. While I was having some fun gathering infos about the Northern Mazghuna pyramid I have learned of a pyramid in Saqqara, near to Khendjer's pyramid and likely coeval (13th Dynasty), but considerably bigger and whose owner is unfortunately not determinable. Do you know something more about it? Khruner (talk) 10:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I have heard about it, I have read that it was once tentatively assigned to Imyremeshaw but this is conjectural and contested. I don't know anything more on the pyramid. I have been curious since some time about it but I don't even know its name. Ryhotl reports that "a date "regnal year 5, 3rd month of Shemu, 18th day" is known from the unfinished pyramid complex neighboring that of Khendjer" to conclude that this may have been built by Imyremeshaw or his successor. Iry-Hor (talk) 11:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Probably is this one, seems that it does not have a proper name. Maybe it is the most intricate pyramid hypogeum I have ever seen. Khruner (talk) 11:38, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
It could fit the description indeed. I guess there aren't so many 13th Dynasty pyramids neighboring that of Khendjer. Well spotted! I will upload a few images of the South Maghzuna Pyramid on commons, then look for images of this one. By the way, the Coptos Decrees/Shemay DYK will be up on the main page on 31 August at 14:00 Italian time. Iry-Hor (talk) 11:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Khruner Things are a bit more complicated apparently. In this article the authors reports at least one more 13th Dynasty pyramid in the vicinity of that of Khendjer and the unfinished one we were talking about. Iry-Hor (talk) 12:42, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, many 13th Dynasty pyramids lies between Saqqara south and Dahshur north. The one pointed out by me is possibly the largest; another smaller pyramid is next to (and smaller than) Khendjer's one. I think these most likely are Lepsius 46 and Lepsius 45 respectively (Khendjer is 44). Just look in the pyramid template in at the bottom of this article: they count at least 13 - royal and non-royal - pyramids belonging of the 13th Dynasty. EDIT: thanks for the DYK advice! Khruner (talk) 17:54, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Wow it looks like the English wiki is really laging behind the German one on pyramids. There are so many more articles than on this wiki concerning pyramid. We are even lacking articles on large pyramids, such as that of Pepi II... Iry-Hor (talk) 21:29, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
You made ​​a point here, I was thinking about this today. I regret the fact that I care more about almost unknown pyramids of the SIP compared to other older, more relevant and in more need to exist on such as Pepi II or Nyuserre but it's stronger than me, I failed to nourish a real interest in this period :/ Khruner (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Khruner no worries I completely understand and am living the same thing with respect to pharaohs. I am hopelessly drawn to obscur rulers and spend a lot of time writing articles on kings attested by one scarab-seal while in the same time, many articles on well known pharaohs are of really poor quality. But well known and obscur pyramids and pharaohs are all required on a true encyclopedia and that's one of the things that make Wikipedia unique. Everything should be here. And when it comes to pyramids it hardly gets more obscur than the 13th Dynasty ones. Iry-Hor (talk) 07:36, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Coptos Decrees[edit]

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Shemay[edit]

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:04, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Nebiryraw I[edit]

Please don't remove valid categories. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:46, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Vegaswikian: the category "Dead in 1601 BC" has nothing to do here, no egyptologist will tell you Nebiryraw I died exactly in 1601 BC. This date was proposed by Ryholt but it is heavily debated and even Ryholt advises caution. The category "Year of Birth Unknown" is valid but a bit stupid, if you are serious about it include all pharaohs for a start. Iry-Hor (talk) 21:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
If the article gives a date that makes Category:1601 BC deaths valid, then it is a valid category for that article. Unknown birth year is a valid category and while stupid it is still valid. You can take it to WP:CFD if you think it should be deleted. Note that if the year of death is truly not known, you should use Category:Year of death unknown. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:49, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Ok then I will change the category to Category:Year of death unknown, because it would not be serious to maintain 1601 BC as the exact year of death. To further make this celar I will add other dates for Nebiryraw I proposed by other scholars. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:13, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

To the front, please!^^[edit]

So cool: Dwarfs and pygmies in Ancient Egypt is at the front page. ;o) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes I have seen this!! Watch out for the number of visits to the page, if your hook got more than 5000 you will be in the DYK hall of fame see here (wait for at least 24h for the visit statistics to be complete) Iry-Hor (talk) 14:51, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Awesome!!! Meanwhile the german version is close to it's first nomination. Just take a look how much stuff awaits me when expanding the english one! Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 17:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Nephiliskos I don't understand what you mean. Do you intend to GA nominate the article after all? Iry-Hor (talk) 06:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Iry-Hor Well, why not? The German version is already "worth to read". All the stuff could translated and put into our english version, right? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes yes I think the article has a good chance to be GA! Is there really much more in the German version than in the English one? Iry-Hor (talk) 11:05, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Just read: [1] (or, at least, take a look). :o) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:43, 12 September 2014 (UTC)