User talk:Ivan Štambuk

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Disambiguation link notification for August 4[edit]

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Allen Nusbaum[edit]

I am a little concerned I would have difficulty defending this article. As a minimum, you should include his actual title, which is Professor, and list his degrees and some indication how we can tell that his published work is important. DGG ( talk ) 23:33, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

To tell you the truth, I'm not sure that it would pass notability test either. Feel free to AfD it. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 01:31, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Croatian Wikipedia[edit]

I've started the discussion on the talk page as you suggested. --93.142.214.74 (talk) 18:56, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Need help from Croatian users[edit]

Jimbo Wales is asking for aditional input from Croatian users regarding the situation on Croatian Wikipedia. Please feel free to voice your opinion. Regards!--В и к и T 20:04, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Etymological dictionary of Slavic languages 35.png[edit]

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Mestrovic[edit]

Do u agree that we should put instead erased sentence some other sentence like :"He was one of the greatest sculptors of the 20th century?" Ithink that sentence doesn't need a proof because that is a known fact..Even Rodin said that Mestrovic is better then him and that he is a genius.Let me hear your opinion.ByeScrosby85 21:51, 12 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talkcontribs)

No, "one of the greatest" must be cited. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:53, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Ok i have a link..A book from Professor Laurence Schmeckebier(1906-1984) from Syracuse University.On 10 pages segment about the life of Ivan Mestrovic he says about him "He stands among the great sculptors and patriots of the twentieth century and endures indeeed as Rodin described him seventy years ago---- a "phenomenon" "...So is this link good enough for you sir?--Scrosby85 23:18, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

http://surface.syr.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1168&context=libassoc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talkcontribs) 23:18, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

"One of the great" is not the same as "One of the greatest". Feel free to add it to the article though. BTW: My talkpage is not the proper venue for this discussion, and it is not up to me to decide what can and can not go in the article. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 23:24, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

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Useful study[edit]

Hi Ivan, I was directed to a paper describing an experiment done a few years ago by an American linguist, John Bailyn, concerning Croatian and Serbian. He basically had Croats translate several Serbian texts and found that the results support the single-language hypothesis on analysis of grammar alone because of the lack of modification done to the texts. No doubt this is another blow to the nationalist braintrust on Croatian Wikipedia that continually resorts to ad hominems and non-linguistic argumentation to preserve the image of Croatian and Serbian being different languages like Dutch and German or Danish and Swedish. The study is at https://linguistics.stonybrook.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/u5/publications/JSLBCS2.pdf LAuburger (talk) 15:48, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks. We might use it in some articles. I very much like the conclusion: functional and grammatical lexical items in the original Serbian texts remain identical after translation into Croatian in 99.79% of cases. By the way, the "nationalist braintrust" is not as strong as it used to be. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Altering referenced text[edit]

Hello Ivan. Just a quick request, when you edit a sentence that is referenced to a specific source, please make sure that the source still backs up that statement. In this edit you completely changed the text, yet left it attributed to the BBC source, which says something very different. Cheers, Number 57 21:54, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

OK. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:56, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

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Merry Christmas[edit]

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BCS[edit]

I think your paranoia surrounding B/C/S needs to come to an end. Will you seek out every instance on wikipedia where Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian is mentioned and explicate their classification!? Such measures are beyond the pale. Whats next? "English, a part of the Germanic branch on the Indo-European language tree"!?! Such excursions are not necessary simply because you say so. Ethnic articles are to what extent possible primarily suppose to convey aspects specific to that group. Speaking a language called Serbo-Croatian is not specific to any of the groups, whereas the standards are. Their classification can and is defined under more relevant circumstances. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 21:00, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

It's an important detail that must be mentioned. There is a lots of difference between classification into ancient families, and modern languages being merely standardized variants of the same pluricentric language. Those bare-bone ethnic names make it sound that there is some kind of "separate" B/C/S/M language, which there is not. People don't speak standard language (it's an idealized form codified in books) - they speak vernaculars, and these forms are Serbo-Croatian as well. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:22, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
Those bare-bone ethnic names make it sound that there is some kind of "separate" B/C/S/M language - excessive paranoia seeing how the main articles (and relevant sections) are perfectly clear. It's an important detail that must be mentioned. -"Such excursions are not necessary simply because you say so". There is a lots of difference between classification into ancient families, and modern languages being merely standardized variants of the same pluricentric language. - let me guess, because it serves your end? they speak vernaculars, and these forms are Serbo-Croatian as well. - irrelevant, BCS are not just standards but also varieties covering vernaculars. Compare writing "Zagreb is the capital of the republic of Croatia, a country on the cross-roads between central and southeastern Europe"...the cursive part is entirely redundant to the article on Zagreb but highly relevant to the article on Croatia. Same goes for Bosniaks/Serbs/Croats and Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 21:49, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, the truth must not be hidden. If you don't like it complain to HAZU/Matica srpska. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 22:23, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
Haha! I want the truth, hell I even thrive in it! But there are so many levels of truth, even beyond Serbo-Croatian. Zagreb is a town in Croatia, but also in the Balkans, and in Europe..and in the world..and....let me just ask if you also think of Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats as silly for being different ethnic groups at all? Should they just blob into "Serbo-Croats"? Is speaking an absolutely unique and exclusive language a prerequisite for being recognized as a distinct ethnic group by Ivan? Are ethnic groups solely determined by the language they speak? You must be sorely disappointed seeing that Google translate has recently added "Bosnian" to its service? Because people should not be permitted to call their native tongue by the name they prefer themselves, right? But should instead abide by Jacob Grimm of 1824 and Croat and Serb scholars of the era who proclaimed that "Serbo-Croatian" is the proper name for their language because they simply know best. The tag on the Croatian talk page even honestly declares "modeled on Serb and Croat nationalists of the time". Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 22:55, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
They can call themselves and their language whatever they want, but they do not "own" it, even though many have been thoroughly brainwashed into thinking that they do. There is no "right" to one's language, no matter how many institutes, Maticas or academicians lied that there is. There is freedom to use one's language, but not right to claim it, or slap some exclusionist ethnic label on it. Just like you Serb nationalists see the so-called "Bosnian language" and "Montenegrin language" (as well as the notion of separate Bosniak/Montenegrin ethnicity) a matter of ridicule, some of us go one step further, and see "Croatian language" and "Serbian language" for what they are - a result of narrow-minded head-in-the-sand "We have our language we don't care what others call it *fingers in ears* la-la-la" point of view. The world does not revolve around petty Balkanites - seven billion human's don't share your collective frustrations ;-) --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 16:30, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
You are right in most of what you say and I'd be a lunatic to not agree, but my point is that people are entitled to have a special and exclusive relation to their dog and name it whichever way they like alongside the properly scientific and objective classification Canidae. "John had a dog called Taffy, a canidae member." Lol. If John or anyone else wishes to learn about the biological classification of Taffy they'll make sure to look up the appropriate definition. It's really taking it too far, Ivan. And FYI I do recognize both the Bosnians (Bosnjani) and Montenegrins (Dukljani) as "distinct". Serb or Croat influences have historically only been peripheral, especially in the case of Bosnia. The ethnic history of Serbs and Croats was compiled and constructed under megalomaniac circumstances in the 19th century, a period when Bosniaks and, perhaps specifically, Montengrins were largely dormant. Serbification and Croatisation of the region thus stretches back some 150 years, and I'm sure that presenting any current Croatian or Serbian history book to a 15th century South Slav would result in a farce (it is already a farce to western scholars). At the end of the day, ethnicities are predominantly politic constructs (rather than "God-given" or "blood-based"), so the distinction they offer is mostly self-conceived, as with culture at large. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 20:36, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Culture is not a political construct. It is something that can be measured, touched, visualized, felt. It's a concrete, physical manifestation of human interaction created as the byproduct of their creativity. Languages as well are concrete products, comprised of lexicons and grammatical structures. Ethnicities, on the other hand, are largely imaginary concepts, particularly in the Balkans regions where most countries sprung to life only recently, and all of them as a result of genocide, ethnic cleansing, forced population exchanges and large-scale brainwashing/assimilation of the population. Ethnic history of Serbs and Croats was not constructed in the 19 the century - it's by and large a result of 20th century propaganda. In the 19th century there was still feudalism going on, and 99% of the population was doing agriculture and was illiterate, and couldn't care less about "Serbs" and "Croats". --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:22, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
I didn't say culture was politics but they are equally much a construct of man's mind (or creativity if you like). I wasn't speaking about the general population in the 1800s but Serb and Croat scholars which were apparently enough literate to spread propaganda. The famous "Srbi svi i svuda" is a glorious 19th century punch line! Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 21:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Ivan Štambuk,I must say that i agree with Praxis Icosahedron on this one.Croats article,or Serbs article or Bonsiaks article are not your property so that you can do whatever you want.You are obsessed with the SerboCroatian thing and all you are saying is "It needs to be mentioned" You can see what i wrote under this topic so i don't repeat myself over and over again.See the logic. Scrosby85 22:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

It is beyond question redundant and even slightly paranoid to explicate their classification wherever the standards may appear. The lead of an ethnic article should optimally focus on aspects of immediate specificity to that ethnic group. Ivan accuses me of "hiding the truth" while in fact I have never obstructed the standards' classification as Serbo-Croatian where due, such as in the individual articles or appropriate sections inciting excursions of the kind.Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 00:20, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

SC problem edit[edit]

Hi,I want to ask you what to do now about this SerboCroatian thing?Serbs and Bosniaks just revert and remove that Serbian and Bosnian language are part of standardized variety of SC but page about Croats mentions it.I think it is a bit unfair.Either they all don't have that sentence or they have.I also think it doesn't need to be mentioned two times.People who want to know better about that languages can go to wikipedia and write croatian,bosnian and serbian language and they will see that info about language articles in the first sentence.Also it is mentioned in languages section on "Serbs","Croats" and "Bosniaks" articles.Bye--Scrosby85 23:17, 26 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scrosby85 (talkcontribs)

Already being discussed in the section directly above. "Unfair"?..what is this, an ethnic penis measuring contest between the Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats? The articles do not need to look identical, so WP:OTHERSTUFF is irrelevant. But as far as I can tell, we seem to agree. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 20:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Praxis Icosahedron,Of course they need to look identical.If all three articles looked identical 2 months ago and nobody complained.If all three languages are part as same subgroup which is called SerboCroatian then all three articles need to mention it.If u ask me that doesn't need to be mentioned in "Serbs" article or "Croats" or "Bosniaks"...There is a language section in each of that three articles and if someone is interested in that they can look.Also they can go to Serbian,Bosnian and Croatian language articles and they will read that sentence in the first row.So if it is not unfair it is pretty stupid looking sentence and it doesn't need to be mentioned on Serbs,Croats and Bosniaks articles.Just in the language sections.Scrosby85 22:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)Scrosby85

Well, yes, that is my opinion too evidently. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 00:02, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't matter whether anyone complained or not. It's an important fact that needs to be mentioned because it downplays the significance and/or existence of these ethnic groups. It should be mentioned in the proper context, or not mentioned at all. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:14, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

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Notification[edit]

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 19:18, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh and yeah, be ready to bring your sources. I'm going to enjoy this. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 19:22, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

..for recognizing my edits on Croatian. Maybe we can reach some middle ground after all. I am not against explicitly presenting Bosancica and all that as the opinion of Bosniak linguists. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 22:27, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Notification[edit]

I've opened up a case the dispute resolution noticeboard which might interest you Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 22:57, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

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Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.[edit]

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This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help find a resolution. The thread is "Bosnian Language". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you. -- KeithbobTalk 19:09, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikilinking[edit]

Hi, and thanks for your work on the English Wikipedia.

I noticed an article you worked on. Just a short note to point out that we don’t normally link:

  • dates
  • years
  • commonly known geographical terms (including well-known country-names), and
  • common terms you’d look up in a dictionary (unless significantly technical).

This even applies for infoboxes.

Thanks and my best wishes.

Tony (talk) 06:01, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm already familiar with that guideline. You haven't unlinked any of the article's linked terms in your edit.. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 06:07, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

edit summaries[edit]

You omitted the edit summary field on this edit. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:32, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

See talk page. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 07:33, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikilinking[edit]

Hi, and thanks for your work on the English Wikipedia.

I noticed an article you worked on. Just a short note to point out that we don’t normally link:

  • dates
  • years
  • commonly known geographical terms (including well-known country-names), and
  • common terms you’d look up in a dictionary (unless significantly technical).

This even applies for infoboxes.

Thanks and my best wishes.

Tony (talk) 08:48, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

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Ways to improve Ante Kuzmanić[edit]

Hi, I'm ColonelHenry. Ivan Štambuk, thanks for creating Ante Kuzmanić!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. Encyclopaedia's are tertiary sources and are not considered reliable WP:PSTS...as you develop the article, consider using more secondary sources.

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Proposed deletion of Mato Pižurica[edit]

Hello, Ivan Štambuk. I wanted to let you know that I’m proposing an article that you started, Mato Pižurica, for deletion because it's a biography of a living person that lacks references. If you don't want Mato Pižurica to be deleted, please add a reference to the article.

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The clear mistake in http://hjp.novi-liber.hr/index.php?show=search_by_id&id=fF9vXRI%3D[edit]

The pronunciation given on the link you shared is wrong, regardless of the fact it purports to give a language standard of Croatia. Moreover it is impossible to pronounce a word like that in Serbo-Croat (including Croatian literary language as one of its standards), because two lengthened vowels require an open syllable in that linguistic sustem (and this occurs only in Genitive Plural).

Maybe you should write to them and let them know. Also you could talk to people who are real experts in prosody and applied phonetics, if there are some where you live, and not just rely on typists entering words they do not know how to pronounce for online perusal.

Finally you might Google Search for "Dùbrōvnik" and "Dùbrōvnīk" and see that the first renders 18,500 entries, while the second has merely 255 finds, all related to that wrong novi-liber.hr page. So, you are showing shoddy research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.41.252.227 (talk) 17:56, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

There is no such thing as wrong on Wikipedia. There are either referenced facts, or unreferenced facts. If you don't like the referenced accentuation of Dubrovnik, find an alternative source without the posttonic length on /i/. (Actually I do have such source but won't help you now since you're being so obnoxious). All of the nouns on -nīk have the length and it's irrelevant whether it's due to leveling or it's the original accent.
Re: Actually I do have such source but won't help you now since you're being so obnoxious -- So you are admitting you are carrying out POV editing, instead of genuine good intent contribution to Wikipedia? Ah well... We thought as much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.41.252.227 (talk) 12:07, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
It's not POV pushing, both pronunciations are equally proper. I just stated that it won't be me who will source alternative accentuation. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 12:52, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
And why exactly is that? Here is why: because you are pushing a single POV in this specific case, even though in 75-80% od the cases you try to be objective. Why you are doing that, only you know.
Mind you, it is not at all just about Dubrovnik -- or rather and properly: Dùbrōvnik -- it is about hypocrisy and bigotism. In most cases you behave professionally only to be one-sided and petty on minor issues where you feel vulnerable or vain. Admittedly, you are probably not as bad as the guys on hr.wikipedia whom you criticised extensively when the scandal with their fascism arose, but you obviously have a tendency to being authoritarian and abusive.
Not that we have anything to lose from such actions by you or to get from your possible behavioural betterment in the future. But you do.
Accentuation is not a matter of POV. It's a fact of reality. POV = point of view of a human. I wouldn't really call it hypocrisy, more like fun. If you weren't behaving like a jerk maybe I would source Dùbrōvnik as well. Or perhaps give you a long list of words with a similar CV:C.CV:C pattern. BTW, I'm a NPOV fundamentalist in all matters. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 22:27, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

59.41.252.227 (talk) 22:20, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

BTW, I'm a native speaker of the Ijekavian Neoštokavian from the region and it's indeed pronounced like that (also by Dubrovnikan themselves). And your Google search results are useless because you didn't enclose them in quotes - Serbo-Croatian accent marks are not written normally. --Ivan Štambuk (talk)
As one can see, both "Dùbrōvnik" and "Dùbrōvnīk" are clearly enclosed in quotes in the example above, so you are wrong. They were searched as such. Moreover, once again, it is not possible to pronounce two lengthened unaccented syllables in Serbo-Croat if the latter of the two is a closed syllable (has a consonant in the end).
So you most certainly do NOT hear the lengthening of [i], what you might hear is the lengthened [o] carrying on to the [i] (i.e. it's an issue of prosody and not of phonetics, as are unaccented lengths). If that [i] was indeed long, then in the Genitive case it should be "Dubrōvníka", i.e. with a prepositional, instead of a postpositional vowel length and a long rising on the "i", and that does not exist in the modern West Southern Slavonic language at all (only a few dozen Čakavian and a mere handful of Kosovo-Resava dialect words gave such anomalous remnants from the past). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.41.252.227 (talk) 12:04, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
You enclosed them in quotes here but not on Google searches. The real results for both are order of magnitude less than you claim. You don't even know how to google - how do you expect anyone to treat you seriously?
Oh I know very well what I hear and pronounce. Posttonic lengths are distinctive ("phonemic") in Serbo-Croatian so it's indeed a matter of phonetics/phonology. Both Dùbrōvnik and Dùbrōvnīk have columnar accent paradigm. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:06, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
"Shoddy research"?! If you only took a glance at the supposed 18500 hits (I got 1740, showing how reliable that number is), you would find a lot of "reliable" sources like the following:

9570665. 2 bed vila dùbrōvnik, hrvatska. € POA · 8948056. 2 bed stan dùbrōvnik, hrvatska. € 83,000 · 9005143. 3 bed apartman dùbrōvnik, hrvatska. € 180,000.

I actually do have an idea how this wrong pronunciation spilled on the Internet so much: it was taken over by web bots from our own Wikipedia article and then mindlessly multiplied to ad generators and SEO code, and such. It can still be visible e.g. in Statemaster WP fork (blacklisted).
For an amusement: https://xkcd.com/978/ No such user (talk) 08:14, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
LOL. It's not necessary wrong BTW - Anić's dictionary is largely based on actual usage, and not some abstract norm. It has been criticized for containing too many "Serbianisms" because of that. I've also found Dùbrōvnīk in the prescriptive grammar by Barić et al. (pages 87, 314, 365) as well as the Рјечник дубровачког говора ("The Dictionary of Dubrovnikan speech"; Српски дијалектолошки зборник XLIX, SANU, 2002) - page 102. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 08:37, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

And BTW, since you did the Pižurica article...[edit]

... why don't you do one on Vanja Stanišić, the sole living Serbian linguist who deals with Serbian/Albanian linguistic co-influences? BTW, he is the son of Ivan Studen, the author of the play "Karađorđe", and currently teaches in Seoul, South Korea.

59.41.252.227 (talk) 18:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I've never heard of him to tell you the truth. Pižurica seems rather notable - holds a number of positions and has authored important works. I'm not sure that Stanišić would pass the notability criteria for academics. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 01:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

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House of Gundulic/Gondola[edit]

Ivan, if after analysis of secondary sources the correct name in Gundulic is fine. I do not want things my way, but at least we should follow the right methodology (is a wholesale google research a good method??). And please can you contribute to put some water on the fire? User DIREKTOR is starting an edit war on the Talk page... never seen anything like that. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi[edit]

Zdravo Ivane. Thanks for your question. Yes, I cannot edit Balkan articles for now, (blocked because of, well,.. ), and I do not know the figure in question too well. However, I agree with you about the lack of nationalism in 16-17th century. Fines book is one amongst many about the topic, Eg Anthony Smiths various works, and Patrick Geary Myths of Nations.. To make an article for all Europe or evbery European nation would be an immense task that noone has time for, and I am sure articles here exist which talk about nationalism, and its rise fom the late 18th century. And anyhow, in other European countries, it wouldnt be needed, because, unliek the Balkans, editors there seem to work very well with each other, are civilized and up-to-date with modern scholarship (just see here [1]). I hope after my downtime to return, and eventually do an article about identity/ ethncity in Balkans during the Middle Ages. Of course, I dont think this will prevent future conflicts. Because a lot of editors are simply blinded by religious-level beliefs on what they were taught in primary school, and are simply blind to any higher -level intellectual discussion which goes beyond nationalist mythology/ Even if they had the IQ to learn it, they often simply dont want to accept it becuase they'd rather push a certain POV. Its syumptomatic of most people from our region of origin,unfortunately. IT all calls for patience, concensus, and if need be, taking to Arbcom as you have done. :( Slovenski Volk (talk) 15:26, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I better keep out of it even the discussions, apparently. Hope you all can come to some consensus Slovenski Volk (talk) 13:27, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Greetings Ivan Štambuk![edit]

The statement that Chakavian has low mutual intelligibility with Kajkavian is as untrue as the assertion that Chakavian has the same intelligibility with Shtokavian(which is very low), and with Kajkavian(which is actually very good). It is also incorrect that Kajakvian subdialects are not mutually comprehensible between themselves, in fact it is just the opposite. Although every area within which the Kajkavian dialect is spoken has its own specifities, all Kajkavian subdialects are very similar regerdless in which area they are spoken. Furthermore, Chakavian shares many similarities with Kajkavian regarding vocabulary, declension, conjugation, accentuation, and sound system; manny vowels are common in booth, and they also share the same diphtongs. Almost none of the latter features which are present in booth Chakavian and Kajkavian are present in Shtokavian. Briefly: Chakavian and Kajkavian overlap in manny ways, and judging by the experience of speakers of booth dialects, their mutual intellegibility is at a very high degree, while mutual intelligibility between speakers of the Shtokavian dialect and between speakers of booth of the other dialects is very low. These are also facts that follow from the linguistic analysis of both dialects, Chakavian and Kajkavian.

With kind regards --Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 21:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

There are immense internal differences among Chakavian and Kajkavian speeches. Northern Chakavian and Southern Chakvian border on complete unintelligibility. No one argues that there are some ancient (centuries-old) isoglosses that Ča-Kaj share (and there are just as many that Što-Kaj and Što-Ča share as well), but overall degree of mutual intelligibility is very low, apart from some transitional areas in the north. I'll look to find some sources to back up the disputed statements. Personal opinions and experience don't matter on Wikipedia unless they are written in reliable sources. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:38, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Greetings[edit]

I am not disputing the fact that there are differeneces between Chakavian and Kajkavian, because there are. After all we are talking about two dialects, and therefore there must be differences. The northern areas; Istria, Kvarner and some northern islands of Dalmatia(Pag for example) are those in which the Chakavian dialect is preserved in its most authentic forms. When we talk about the Chakavian dialect on the southern islands or even on the Dalmatian coast which goes further to the south, we can actually see that this Chakavian is transitional to Shtokavian, and it has taken over many of its features, while Chakavian which is spoken in the norhtern parts has not, therefore they vary. Also if we look at old Chakavian texts (from the time of at least 500 years ago) we can conclude that they are all very similar regardless in which area they have been written, since they had not been affected by Shtokavian at that time, while those which have been affected by it, today significantly differ from original Chakavian. The same applies to Kajkavian.

Kind regards --Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 21:56, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

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Kajkavian[edit]

"You can't just remove statements backed up by multiple reliable sources. Overall the transitional Ča-Kaj speeches constitute a minority of Kajkavian, and Kajkavian as a whole is much more related to Slovene than to Čakavian. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 16:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)"

When talking about the similarity and congruence between Chakavian and Kajkavian it is superficial to consider only the transitional speeches, but it is indeed necessary to fully consider the characteristics of booth dialects. Chakavian spoken in central Istria or an island of northern Dalmatia, which can definitely not be considered a transitional area, overlaps with Kajkavian spoken in any area, except the border zone with Slovenia, to a degree which is significantly higher than the degree in which Kajkavian overlaps with Slovenian. Kajkavian does not share as much similarities with Slovenian as some claim only because it has the same interrogative pronoun for "what"(which actually varies and exists in many more forms which do not exist in Slovenian) or a similar formation of the future tense. The only area (except the border zone with Slovenia) in which Kajkavian shares more similarities with the Slovenian language is part of Gorski Kotar (which is moreover quite small) in which the native population (which was initially chakavian) centuries ago fled to Carantania because of the Turkish conquest, and hence has taken over language features inherent in the Slovenian language. Kajkavian is closer to Slovenian than to Shtokavian, but it is not closer to Slovenian than to Chakavian.

But since you are saying that "reliable sources" claim the opposite, I would appreciate it if you could send me a link for them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Čitateljwikipedije (talkcontribs) 17:51, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

--Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 11:45, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Kajkavian[edit]

There are two sources in the diff above. Kajkavian has been classified as a Slovene dialect in the history due to extensive similarities of the two. On general relationship among Ča-Kaj-Slo, from Lončarić's book on Kajkavian (p. 18): S obzirom na kajkavštinu utvrđena su poklapanja, koja su se mogla i unaprijed očekivati, između jugozapadnih kajkavskih, sjeverozapadnih čakavskih i jugoistočnih slovenskih govora, ali bez izra­zitijih izoglosa, razlika koje bi ukazivale na veću srodnost između nekih od njih (NewekIowsky 1987). Međutim, utvrđeno je također ranije (R. Kolarič 1958) da se s obzirom na te tri jedinice mogu povući i izoglose, tj. slovenski susjedi na čakavskoj strani imaju više zajedničkog sa slovenskim jezikom nego slovenski susjedi kajkavci In other words, there is really no special kinship among Kajkavian and Čakavian. --Ivan Štambuk (talk)"

The source does not deal with the whole area of the Kajkavian dialect nor the entire area of Chakavian dialect and the Slovenian language, but only refers to Kajkavian southwest(jugozapadnih kajkavskih), northwest Chakavian (sjeverozapadnih čakavskih) and southeast Slovene((jugoistočnih slovenskih govora) speeches , therefore, of those speeches Ča-Kaj-Slo that are geographically close.

Also, Kajkavian has never been considered to be part of the Slovene language. This idea dates back to the 19th century when it was launched by some Slovenian linguists. However, Croatian linguists have clearly refuted this assumption. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Čitateljwikipedije (talkcontribs) 18:27, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

--Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 11:45, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Chakavian and Kajkavian[edit]

Here is a list of sources which you can look at in order to see the kinship between Chakavian and Kajkavian: Vinodolski zbornik, Petrisov zbornik, Kolunićev zbornik, Kvarezimal Šimuna Grebla, Korizmenjak IIIa 19 , Homilijar na Matejevo evanđelje, Antoninov konfesional , Kvadriga duhovnim zakonom, Tkonski zbornik, Žgombićev zbornik, Grškovićev zbornik, Judita, Šibenska molitva, Istarski razvod, Povaljska listina, Poljički statut, Pismo kneza Nikole Modruškog, zapis popa martinca, Misal kneza Novaka, Misal Hrvoja Vukčića Hrvatinića, Misal po zakonu rimskog dvora, Prvi vrbnički brevijar, Drugi brevijar, Prvi novljanksi brevijar, Drugi novljanski brevijar, Korčulanski lekcionar, Lekcionar Bernardina Splićanina, Aleksandrida, Narodil se Kralj Nebeski, Bok se rodi v Vitliomi, Va se vrime godišća, Pervi oca našega Adama greh, Zercalo Marijansko, Matijaš grabancijaš dijak,

There were also many linguists who claimed Kajkavian was the only croatian language. I do not agree with this, but it shows the relativity of their interpretations. Also, The term "Slovene"(Slovenski, Sloven-) was not always used in the same way it is used today, it was used to denote all Slavic nations, and it was also used to denote the whole croatian language, for example in the book "Razgovor ugodni naroda slovinskoga".

--Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 19:14, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Editing[edit]

Since it has been shown to what the sources you cited actually relate, would we then be able to agree on that to remove the contentious claim? Of course after you take a look at the sources I cited.

--Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 19:30, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Slovene and Kajkavian[edit]

"Greenberg explicitly says Slovene and the Croatian Kajkavian dialect stand in a close genetic relationship and goes on to elaborate it." And he is right, Slovene dialects and croatian Kajkavian dialects are in a close genetic relationship. Kajkavian is without a doubt closer to Slovene than to Shtokavian. I have never claimed the opposite. The article also says: "the Štokavian dialect began to innovate first, leaving archaisms in the periphery represented today by Slovene, Čakavian and Kajkavian." and "the Kajkavian and Čakavian dialects form a bridge to Slovene". Chakavian is as close to Slovene as Kajkavian, and as far from Shtokavian as Kajkavian.

"Another source that I quoted above says that in the transitional areas Čakavian is more closer to Slovene than to Kajkavian." You have confirmed my assumption that subdialects spoken in the border zone with Slovenia share more similarities with Slovenian dialects than other dialects which are spoken on the Croatian side, and this applies booth to Chakavian and to Kajkavian. I do not see how these two combined can mean that Kajkavian is closer to Slovenian than to Chakavian, it simply means that speeches which are geographicaly close are similar. It is not a strange phenomenon that speeches near borders are close to each other.

"The diasystem as applied to Croatian (or Serbo-Croatian) seems to be a way of artificially asserting linguistic unity in the face of underlying structural heterogeneity." This claim builds on this: "precisely in these last fifty years there have been several important realizations about the development of the Croatian language: that the Croatian and Serbian language is genetically one definite diasystem, at the rank of a language among the Slavic languages, and that in the framework of this diasystem there arose several literary languages, that their basis is Neo-Štokavian (except for the Gradišće Croatian literary language), and that these literary languages, except those based strictly on dialect bases, grew out of a particular centuries-long social and cultural development of individual nations (Barić et al. 1995: 38). " It refers to the similarity of Neo-Štokavian dialects.

"It captures the fact that heterogeneous, though similar, systems can be perceived by speakers as belonging to the same language. This is a linguists’ reflection of what Kajkavian speakers believe about their language: that they are speaking a variety of Croatian."

It suggests that they believe that they are speaking a dialect that belongs to the same language as the Neo-Štokavian dialect does, although they differ significantly.

--Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 11:43, 1 March 2014 (UTC)


  • 1. Kajkavian is genetically related to Slovene.
  • 2. Chakavian is not genetically related to Slovene.
  • 3. Shtokavian is not genetically related to Slovene.
  • 4. In the borderline area Chakavian is more closer to Slovene than to Kajkavian.
  • 5. Ergo, in non-borderline area (where there are less shared isoglosses) Chakavian is at least as distinct from Kajkavian as it is from Slovene.

How did you get the idea that Chakavian is genetically not related to Slovene?


  • "the notion of "Central South Slavic Diasystem" refer to Ča+Kaj+Što dialects together. That there is some kind of "special" connection holding them together since ancient times. It's a political construct with little real-world justification." It is true regarding Štokavian as opposed to Kajkavian and Čakavian. The article says:" There does not exist a close fit between these dialects and the modern ethnic groups and nations: Serbs are speakers of Štokavian Ekavian and Ijekavian; Montenegrins of Štokavian Ijekavian; Croats of Kajkavian, Čakavian, and Štokavian Ikavaian and Ijekavian; Muslims speak Štokavian Ijekavian. In turn, the Kajkavian and Čakavian dialects form a bridge to Slovene"

--Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 12:57, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Well, according to the map Kajkavian, Čakavian and Slovene share quite many isoglosses, all of which end about the line which seperates Štokavian from booth Čakavian and Kajkavian. Do you not agree, regardless which is more similar to which of those three (Ča-Kaj-Slo), that Čakavian and Kajkavian in general share more isoglosses than Štokavian shares with booth of them? Add the fact that the map selected only a few Isoglosses. Based on these maps we can anticipate that behind the line which seperates the two dialects from Štokavian there are plenty of other Isoglosses common in booth Ča-Kaj dialects, which eventually indicates that there is greater similarity between Kajkavian and Chakavian, than between Chakavian and Štokavian, or between Kajkavian and Štokavian. The Wikipedia article about Štokavian also says that Kajkavian and Čakavian have retained many features that are not present in Štokavian. This is what I am targeting at. What I am trying to say all the time is that Kajkavian and Čakavian do not differ in the extent to which both differ from Štokavian. Now we even have a reference- Greenbergs map. I do not want the claim that Kajkavian is closer to Slovene than to Štokavian to be removed, because it is true. I am only saying that it should not say that mutual intelligibility between Kajkavian and booth of the other dialects is the same. Even the reference you cited confirms this assumption. Therefore, it should only say that mutual intelligibility between Kajkavian and Štokavian is low. Can we at least agree on that? --Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 14:59, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
  • "it's absurd to claim that Southern Čakavian is more closer to Kajkavian in the north than neighboring Štokavian" The majority of the Chakavian speaking area is situated on the north, and further to the south there only are Štokavianized varieties of Chakavian, which can only be considered transitional Ča-Što subdialects. Southern Chakavian is closer to Štokavian than to Kajkavian but it accounts for only a small area on the islands.
  • "especially in the light of Č and K each being closer to S than to each other (why shouldn't they as well each be closer to Š than to each other? Both are heavily Štokavianized now.)" The source you cited, Greenbergs map, shows that the majority of the Chakavian speaking area (Istria, Kvarner, and some norhtern islands of Dalmatia) shares more isoglosses with Kajkavian than with Štokavian. It is also the only area where you can find Chakavian subdialects which are neither transitional to Kajkavian nor to Štokavian, while the southern Chakavian dialects can only be considered transitional because they cover a very narrow coastal zone according to this map https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datoteka:Croatian_dialects.PNG

--Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 15:22, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

  • "There is also Middle Chakavian, Southern Chakavian, and Southeastern Chakavian. None of these are closer to Kajkavian than to Štokavian." The croatian Wikipedija says: "Na srednječakavskom dijalektu temelji se standardizirani jezik gradišćanskih Hrvata." Also, László Hadrovics, a researcher of language and culture of the Burgenland Croats says: "[...] cijeli fonetski razvoj gradišćanskohrvatskog književnog jezika, tvorbu riječi i morfologiju. Podaci nam dokazuju opet da je ovaj književni jezik jednoznačno čakavski. Znanstvena gramatika potvrñuje Hadrovicsev opis. Razlika je u tome što u književnom jeziku

18. i 19. stoljeća nema utjecaja hrvatskog standardnog jezika, što je slučaj danas. Morfologija imenica odgovara stanju u čakavskim i kajkavskim govorima. It also says: "imaju vrlo mnogo zajedničkog, naročito u leksiku, gdje nalazimo mnogo podudaranja s kajkavskim narječjem" The language of the Burgenland Croats, which is based on the Middle Chakavian dialect, shares many similarities with Kajkavian, therefore also with North Chakavian.

As regards the South Chakavian subdialect, the croatian Wikipedija says: "U mnogim govorima se miješaju čakavske i štokavske osobine. Pretpostavka je da se u prošlosti ovaj dijalekt prostirao dublje u unutrašnjost, a prostor mu se smanjio seobama stanovništva." Hence, most of the other Chakavian subdialects that stretch along a narrow coastal zone are actually transition speeches between Chakavian and Štokavian.

As regards the Southeastern Chakavian, Wikipedija also says: "jugoistočni čakavski (odgovara južnočakavskom, jugozapadnom istarskom i lastovskom) Neki znanstvenici smatraju da je jugozapadni istarski miješani čakavsko-štokavski dijalekt ili da pripada štokavskom."

Therefore, South Chakavian and Southeastern Chakavian are transitional Ča-Što subdialects.

One more thing. "that map is wrong. It was created by a Croatian user out of his head to artificially inflate the number of speakers and the geographical distribution of those two extincting dialects. There is no alternative map so it's being kept in the article" Why are you saying this? Who is this user? Does it mean that there is no other map which shows the distribution of croatian dialects? And most important of all, why should someone have the desire to artificially inflate the number of speakers of the those two dialects? --Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 16:30, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

  • "That's your imaginative conclusion. Sources classify them as legitimate Č subgroups." What I said relies on what the croatian Wikipedija says, and this is furthermore based on what reliable sources say. You can look at the articles.
  • The speech of Buzet is also classified as a legitimate Č subgroup, and yet Wikipedija says(which is also based on reliable sources): "Buzetski, buzetsko-gornjomiranski ili gornjomiranski dijalekt se prostire u sjevernom dijelu Istre, oko Buzeta[1].Dijalekt predstavlja prijelaz čakavskoga narječja prema slovenskim dijalektima". This is pretty much the same situation as with South Chakavian speeches. I have justified my assertions by things which are written in Wikipedija, which are based on reliable sources.

Also, Filip Galović says(regarding the South Chakavian dialects): "teren koji je, navlastito u kopnenome dijelu južnočakavskoga ikavskoga dijalekta, u neku ruku ruševan. Ponajprije, “kopneni su govori južnočakavskoga dijalekta u dugu izravnu dodiru s ikavskoštokavskima te se posljedice toga dodira uvelike iščitavaju iz fonološkoga sustava", also:"Osim blizine dvaju dijalekata i njihova miješanja tijekom prošlosti, kopneni govori južnočakavskoga dijalekta i u današnjem vremenu trpe različite promjene. Mnoga i raznolika doseljavanja (ponajviše iz Dalmatinske zagore i drugih okolnih kopnenih područja, iz zapadne Hercegovine, pa i s otoka)".

  • "Personally I can't even fathom the cognitive dissonance in the mids of those who simultaneously believe that standard Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian(/Montenegrin) are three (four) legitimately "different" languages" Neither do I.

--Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 17:59, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

  • I see no point to this. It seems that you have the authority for deciding what is true and what is not. Whatever I say, whatever the sources say, you are going to twist them in the way you prefer. And no, I did not say that only the Northern Čakavian was proper, but that it occupies the space where there were no Neo-Štokavian innovations, and where non-transitional Chakavian dialects are spoken, but this is no longer important. You claim that Wikipedia articles from Balkanian countries provide misleading interpretations. You declared invalid all the logical conclusions that I have made also from your sources. On one hand it is not a good map that is used in the "(non-Balkan) article which provides valid information", on the other hand you do not let newer sources show the real situation on the field.

I have neither the time nor the will to continue this discussion.

With kind regards --Čitateljwikipedije (talk) 18:31, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

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Discretionary sanctions 2013 review: Draft v3[edit]

Hi. You have commented on Draft v1 or v2 in the Arbitration Committee's 2013 review of the discretionary sanctions system. I thought you'd like to know Draft v3 has now been posted to the main review page. You are very welcome to comment on it on the review talk page. Regards, AGK [•] 00:16, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

White Croats[edit]

Hi. Is this a reliable source? Please verify this edit. Odd claim and I don't think that's an expert source. Thanks. --Zyma (talk) 16:58, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Karatay's theory is not generally accepted. However it is notable due to the fact that Croatian media provided moderately comprehensive coverage thereof. It's fringe, but notable. On the other hand all of the "Croatian origin" theories of ethnogenesis are unsubstantiated speculations without a shred of evidence, so I'm unsure how it features as regards the relationship with competing theories. "Nationalist see nationalist imagine." --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:09, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

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Reverting a massive improvement on Help:IPA for Serbo-Croatian[edit]

Hello. How can you remove six hours of my hard work and just call that butchering? All that I've done is massively improved (I mean: added another language) the guide, without really removing any information! Five hours later... you still didn't write to me about that, nor tried to remove things you didn't like (maybe those flags are an overkill, but they explicitly tell users if the word is Serbo-Croatian, Slovene, or both. And, of course, by things I mean details of what I added, not just throwing away all of my work). Besides, take a look at these pages:

IPA for Serbo-Croatian and Slovene looks more or less the same as IPA for Portuguese and Galician in terms of differences between Serbo-Croatian and Slovene vs. Portuguese and Galician.

Go ahead and take part in this discussion if you want: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics#Help:IPA for Serbo-Croatian and Slovene --Peter238 (talk) 20:02, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

If yo want to improve them separately you are free to do so. There is no reason to combine different languages like that. Those IPA guidelines that you list above should be split. Whether there is redundancy or not is irrelevant - we are not short on space and the confusion introduced is quite heavy. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
You're probably the first person to say that those pages should be split. What's the confusion? On each of these three pages there's a clear distinction between languages - and if there isn't, you can always work on it or ask someone else to improve it. --Peter238 (talk) 20:33, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Various other language combos have common IPA pages. See Dutch and Afrikaans IPA page, Norwegian and Swedish IPA page, Czech and Slovak IPA page, and so on and so on. 78.0.239.200 (talk) 22:13, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
It's a stupid idea to combine them like that and they should be split. The distinction is far from clear - you need to repeatedly look which column is valid for which language. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 04:33, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

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Copying within Wikipdia[edit]

Hello, User:Ivan Štambuk. :)

While investigating the copyright concerns flagged in Igman Initiative, I see that you had copied the content to that page from Igman. It's perfectly okay to copy content from one article to another on Wikipedia, of course, but when you do so you must at least put a link in the edit summary to the source article to provide the legally required attribution. Content on Wikipedia is not public domain, and our contributors agree that this link is sufficient acknowledgement. Without at least that level of attribution, I'm afraid that such copying violates their copyright. Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia explains more the how and why.

I'll make sure that the necessary attribution is provided in this instance, but I wanted to let you know for future use and in case you have copied content previously without the required attribution so that you can fix it. Thanks. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:34, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

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NPOV[edit]

Na šta ciljaš? Koji dio nije uredu? Kategorija? --Munja (talk) 16:37, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Piše ti na strnici za razgovor sve. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 18:14, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Human Rights Film Festival[edit]

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A tag has been placed on Human Rights Film Festival requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organized event (tour, function, meeting, party, etc.), but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

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Proposed deletion of Rijeka Philological School[edit]

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Proposed deletion of Zagreb Philological School[edit]

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Proposed deletion of Zadar Philological School[edit]

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Problemi[edit]

Pozdrav. Prvo se ispricavam sto pisem na hrvatskome, ali puno ce mi biti lakse objasniti situaciju u kojoj sam se snasao. Pa da objasnim. Postoje dvojica korisnika koji pokušavaju napraviti promjene na članku o europskim izborima, točnije žele promijeniti tko su bili vođe na europskim izborima. Ignoriraju činjenicu da su postojali kandidati za predsjednika europske komisije, pa žele staviti vođe grupacija ueuropskom parlamentu kao vođe na izborima, što je po meni ludost. Ne vidim razloga zašto bi to itko činio jer je jasno kao dan da su vođe na zadnjim izborima bili kandidati za predsjednika komisije. Jedino mogu doci do zakljucka da im se ne svida to sto neke grupacije nisu predstavile kandidate, tocnije konzervativne stranke, koje vjerojatno oni podrzavaju, a mozda su i njihovi članovi. Pa zato žele to promijeniti, što bi po meni bila ludost jer ti kandidati koji su sada, Junker, Schultz, Verhofstadt,... su bili cijelo vrijeme u članku predstavljeni kao vođe i onda odjednom mjesec dana nakon izbora dolaze ova dvojica i to žele promijeniti. Stavit ću ti linkove na članke i od njih isto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014

Korisnici su Jaakko_Sivonenv i Gabrielthursday.

Problem je sto sam ja dosta nov u svemu ovome i nemam iskustva su uredivanjem, a ni svim pravilima, pa su me oni izgleda prijavili, sto sam ja isto uzvratio, evo ti linkovi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tuvixer#Edit_warring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jaakko_Sivonen#Stop_vandalizing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gabrielthursday#Stop_vandalizing

Oni ocigledno znaju da nisu u pravu pa su počeli menenapadati i terorizirati kao što možeš vidjeti na mojoj talk stranici, a i ovdje: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User:Tuvixer_is_continuously_posting_personal_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Tuvixer_reported_by_User:Jaakko_Sivonen_.28Result:_.29

Tebe sve ovo pitam jer pretpostavvljam da immas vise iskustva nego ja na ovoj stranici i da bis mi mogao pomoci. Ao treba prevesti cu sve ovo na engleski. Ako ti nesto nije jasno radu cu objasniti.


Puno hvala unaprijed, LP Tuvixer

Tuvixer (talk) 12:55, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Taj Gabrielthursday je brijem neki kršćanski desničar svađao sam se s njim na nekom članku o pederskim pravima (ne pitaj...). Meni se osobno lagano bljuje od političke travestije Eurosovjeta i tih izbora za koje nikog nije briga iako sve odlučuju. 98% Europljana nema pojma ni kako se zove EU predsjednik. Budem pogledao diskusiju kasnije večeras pa komentiram sad samo odgovaram da sam zaprimio obavijest :) --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:47, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Evo me natrag, nisam mogao biti ovdje u zadnje vrijeme jer sam imao obveze. Sada sam napisao na talku od europskih izbora 2014 što se stvarno tamo događa, ali ti ljudi su stvarno fanatisti i spremni su na sve. Čim ih prokužiš odmah zovu svoje admine i onda zabrane promjene na članku, mene su čak bili i blokirali. Užas, stvarno ne razumijem koji je smisao da šire laži, stvarno bez veze. Najvjerojatnije ću sada napraviti bolji članak o europskim izobrima na hrvatskome jeziku, pa cu tamo staviti tu tablicu, ali kako bi stvarno trebala. Ja sam na wikipediji jer mi je zanimljivo biti dio svega ovoga, a i bez ljudi wikipedija ne bi mogla funkcionirati, pa valjda ima i tu nečega. :) Ali onda doći u susret sa ovakvim ljudima koji su spremni na sve samo kako bi promovirali neku svoju agendu je stvarno deprimirajuće. Inače sam iz Rijeke, pa nisam baš naviknut na ta desničarska sranja, i stvarno se loše osjećam kada to vidim. To je uvijek problem jer su ti fanatični desničari u ogromnoj manjini, ali su glasni, a normalni, većina, uvijek šute i trpe. Njih dvojica zajedno surađuju, tko zna možda je iza ta dva profila jedna osoba, i stalno su aktivni, tako da nema šanse da nešto promijeniš, a čim ih prokužiš odmah te napadnu i onda je kraj. Promijene članak i onda im ja undo tu promjenu i kažem da rasprave o tome na talku prije nego što naprave promjenu. Ništa im to ne znači, opet vrate i kažu da bih ja trebao staviti na talk, mislim užas, i tako bi oni trebali biti u pravu. Ali barem i oni znaju da nisu u pravu i da to što rade nije u redu, jer da je drugačije otvoreno bi govorili zašto to rade. Hvala ti na pomoći. :)

Tuvixer (talk) 11:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)