User talk:Jack Upland

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Carlot Ophuls[edit]

Jack, you really have to stop this. Why do you have to be such a meanie? Turnbull had every right to do what he did. And these people are all over the place with things that are happening.

Well, as King Caractacus's court astrologer said to the Nizam of Hydrabad's grand vizier... Um, I forget. (But you get the gist.)--Jack Upland 08:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Jack, it isn't spelled, "Hydrabad," but, Hyderabad. See that you don't forget it.
I like you, Jack, but you really have to stop this nonsense about Carlot Ophuls and the chancellery of Fitzsimmons Oenschwelleier having had anything whatsoever to do with the Kennedy administration.
Apologies. When I wrote Hydra I must have been thing of your behaviour.--Jack Upland 21:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Turnbull[edit]

I'm sorry, Jack, but Turnbull had every right to stipulate that those actions performed by Elizabeth's court STAY in Elizabeth's jurisdiction.--66.65.63.154 17:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry too, because I have no idea what you're talking about.--Jack Upland 00:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Magdoff[edit]

Sorry to bother. I saw your comments regarding the Venona Project and the the need to be skeptical about government intelligence files. I have posted a Request for Comment for the pages Talk:Harry Magdoff and espionage and Talk:Harry Magdoff. Endless revert wars and edit conflicts. Input welcome.--Cberlet 09:56, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Bulls[edit]

Tas Bull and Ted Bull were two different people. I don't think Tas was ever a communist. He certainly wasn't a Maoist. Adam 06:13, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

My mistake. I did immediately check and changed it back, but I think you then changed it again! It's right now (I think). Tas was a Communist (weren't all the wharfies?!).--Jack Upland 06:35, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

No. My good friend Bunna Walsh was always an ALP member, as was Charlie Fitzgibbon. The DLP had a presence on the Melbourne wharves too. Tas Bull may have been a comm in his youth, but I don't think so. I will check when I get back to Oz. Adam 06:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually I can research it here in Bangkok, I find there is quite a lot about Tas online. Adam 06:45, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

You are correct, he was a CPA member 1951-59. Adam 06:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Clearly (?) Wikipedia needs an article on Tasnor and you've just done the research to write it.--Jack Upland 01:48, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I've done the best I can from here. There are probably better sources to be had in print from the time of his death. Adam 06:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

LTV[edit]

Jack Apologies for the unsolicited post: I see you have contributed a great deal to the discussion of the Labour Theory of Value, and clearly have spent a lot of time reading and thinking about it. I'm researching for a project on markets and politics, and it strikes me that the LTV (which is fairly new to me) may explain the dichotomy between those of a broadly capitalist/laissez faire stripe, and those of a broadly socialist stripe (in each case, for want of a better word). That is to say, if you buy the neoclassical idea that the only relevant expression of value is the amount counterparties are prepared to buy and sell for, you'll tend to fall on the capitalist side of the divide. But if you accept the proposition that there's an intrinsic value to labour, then you will tend to see the machinations of the supply/demand equilibrium as having a distortionary effect on prices, and value - from thence the notion of proletariat exploitation - and indeed of there being classes of "workers" and "capitalists" arises.

I should own up that my own perspective is broadly one of accepting the neoclassical paradigm, but it seems to me much of the criticism "from the left" of capitalism, globalisation, free markets etc. relies on the sentiment that someone is being exploited, which is understandable/explainable in terms of LTV, but is harder to rationalise in terms of neoclassical theory. Would you agree?

As a second observation, and if that first assertion is right, would you agree that LTV ultimately sheets back to some sort of objectivism - in that there is an intrinsic value for labour? Neoclassical theory, on the other hand, is a more relativist reading - ie there is no value other than what one assigns to it. Would be very interested in your thoughts on this. Best regards ElectricRay 10:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Posting's what this is for! I think there is some truth in what you say. However, many people would argue that regardless how you explain them, global poverty, inequality etc, are bad in themselves. A few points of clarification though:

  • Adam Smith & co accepted LTV but were pro-free market.
  • LTV does not imply that supply and demand are a source of 'distortion' of prices, but rather that they generate the equilibrium which corresponds to labour value. Nor does Marx for one see price distortion as the source of exploitation.
  • LTV is not a 'just price' concept, such as promoted by campaigns such as Fair Trade (though they could argue in terms of market economics that they were resisting 'oligopsony').
  • Marx for one portrays capitalism as 'falsely ascribing supernational creative power to labour' (Critique of Gotha Programme), so the LTV's view of value is not necessarily as 'intrinsic' and 'objective' as you make out. But it is certainly objective (within limits of the system) when compared with marginalism.--Jack Upland 01:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Jack, thanks for your reply. Your second point in particular interests me. If supply and demand set the value of labour, then how is LTV any different to classical economics at all? It seems that the criticisms of Marginalism (taken from the Wikipedia article): Marginalism has been criticised for being divorced from reality... While classical economics attempted to find an objective explanation for prices, the theory of marginal utility is content with subjectivity. According to its critics, the theory concentrates on the exchange between individuals, ignoring the larger economy, and concentrates on the marketplace, ignoring production only do any damage if you think that being content with subjectivity is a bad thing: a Marxist (I think) would think that; a classical economist wouldn't necessarily. Would you agree? A neoclassicist would certainly say that his paradigm dealt with global poverty and inequality as well as (and better than) any objective-value theory. Once again, sorry to trouble you, and thanks for your time. ElectricRay 16:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

No trouble. While it might go against the common impression, LTV doesn't deny supply and demand. Marx, for example, citing Adam Smith, said:

It suffices to say the if supply and demand equilibrate each other, the market prices of commodities will correspond with their natural prices, that is to say with their values, as determined by the respective quantities of labour required for their production. But supply and demand must constantly tend to equilibrate each other, although they do so only by compensating one fluctuation by another, a rise by a fall, and vice versa.[1]

The difference is explaining the equilibrium, which marginalism can't do. Hence the criticism of being 'content with subjectivity'. A theory which doesn't explain things is easy to defend but hardly worth it. (Of course, neoclassicists now start mutter about 'cost curves' etc, leading them closer to the LTV, but it is for them to justify why they reject the LTV, not the reverse.) By the way, the quotation you give is from me! And it's been criticised as inadequate, as you see in the discussion.

My point on global poverty is that I don't think you would convince many protesters with your 'neoclassical paradigm'. Many 'antiglobalists'do have their own economic theories - and some of these like Fair Trade, as I mentioned, are incompatible with LTV as well! But it's fundamental a basic reaction to grinding poverty etc. And I think the issue goes beyond interpreting the world towards changing it. We've seen enough of the 'free market solution' to know it's not going to be short-term. And as Keynes said, in the long term we are all dead...--Jack Upland 05:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I've added a few words in reply to your comments about the bar where the price goes down as one drinks. --Christofurio 19:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Proposed reorganization[edit]

Hi Jack, Hope you saw my replies to your posts over on the LTV Talk page. I'm glad you're around to bring some sense to this point-scoring back and forth debates within the article. Perhaps WikiMedia needs a better mechanisms for discussions and it might take some pressure off ot he articles themselves to serve as that space. I guess in the mean-time we'll just have to stay vigilant. Anyway , thanks for your contributions. Take care, Rob (--Cplot 04:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

Hornet's Nest[edit]

Can I see what you were sent? Always fun to see what is circulating.  :-) --Cberlet 12:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Ahhh, the Wilcox / George book. Center/right authors pissing on anyone on the left who studies the right. Lot's of red-baiting. Tiresome. Makes assumptions about my political ideology that are simply false. Sigh.--Cberlet 13:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, the title sort of gave that away...--Jack Upland 08:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Your recent edit to Jim Byrnes was reverted by an automated bot that attempts to recognize and repair vandalism to Wikipedia articles. If the bot reverted a legitimate edit, please accept our apologies – if you bring it to the attention of the bot's owner, we may be able to improve its behavior. Click here for frequently asked questions about the bot and this warning. // Tawkerbot2 05:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Hindmarsh Island bridge controversy[edit]

Jack I have just commenced this page and (shamelessly) lifted a part of your text from Hindmarsh Island. I would appreciate any editorial imput you may have. Thanks. Joan Gos 03:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Crime in Australia[edit]

Can you explain why they have anything to do with law enforcement? They certainly look like crime to me, or at least alleged crime. They certainly are out of place in the law enforcement category, which is for matters specifically relating to law enforcement agencies and procedures, not to investigations of specific incidents. -- Necrothesp 10:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Paradox[edit]

"[The marginal theory of value] also supplies an answer to the so-called “diamond-water paradox,” which economist Adam Smith pondered but was unable to solve. Smith noted that, even though life cannot exist without water and can easily exist without diamonds, diamonds are, pound for pound, vastly more valuable than water. The marginal-utility theory of value resolves the paradox. Water in total is much more valuable than diamonds in total because the first few units of water are necessary for life itself. But, because water is plentiful and diamonds are scare, the marginal value of a pound of diamonds exceeds the marginal value of a pound of water. The idea that value derives from utility contradicted Karl Marx's labour theory of value, which held that an item's value derives from the labour used to produce it and not from its ability to satisfy human wants." -Encyclopedia Britannica TheIndividualist 04:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

So what?--Jack Upland 10:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
So you're claiming in the article that the LTV was a solution to the paradox. That's not true. TheIndividualist 17:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
You're making 2 assumptions:
  • Battlestar Britannica is always right. (If you read the passage from Wealth of Nations you'll see that Smith did not merely 'ponder' the paradox but proposed a solution based on his distinction between 'value in use' and 'value in exchange'.)
  • Wikipedia should simply record the truth and ignore controversy.
In fact, Wikipedia has an NPOV policy. As you are well aware, the theory of marginal utility is not universally accepted. I merely propose that we outline several proposed solutions to this paradox, briefly mention the pros and cons, and allow the readers to make up their own minds. Any objections?--Jack Upland 05:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Hillary Bray[edit]

Thanks for getting stuck into the expression in that section Jack, it was a semi-POV shocker which was hard to read. Usually I am good with expression, but sometimes it completely fails me. Grumpyyoungman01 01:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Australia newsletter[edit]

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WikiProject Australia newsletter[edit]

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Your KAL 007 comments[edit]

Very interesting!! I wonder what your take would be on the Conservapedia article on KAL 007 - http://www.conservapedia.com/Korean_Airlines_Flight_007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.123.110 (talk) 23:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, the name "Conservapedia" says it all, doesn't it? There's nothing wrong with a thinktank or book that takes a rightwing point of view (apart from the fact that rightists are wrong, obviously!), but to set up an encyclopedia which from the outset screens out anything no support of such a view is monumental bias...--Jack Upland (talk) 16:50, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Jack! But I think that in this case, the conservative bias of Conservapedia did allow a few facts to trickle through that does not seem to have penetrated the wikipedia article on KAL 007 - until you and some others started contributing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.235.123.110 (talk) 21:36, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I must admit I didn't read it closely... What were these facts?--Jack Upland (talk) 09:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

They must have a heck of a time trying to spin Iran Air Flight 655 and Cubana Flight 455 LamontCranston (talk) 01:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Synarchism[edit]

Jack Upland, do you approve of the current version of the Rule by a secret elite section? Your answer is requested at the Talk:Synarchism page. --Loremaster (talk) 04:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Australia newsletter,December 2008[edit]

The December 2008 issue of the WikiProject Australia newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. This message was delivered by TinucherianBot (talk) 07:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

KAL 007[edit]

There's currently a push to get this article to GA status. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you. Socrates2008 (Talk) 10:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg[edit]

I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have found a large number concerns with the referencing which you can see at Talk:Julius and Ethel Rosenberg/GA1. Consequently I have de-listed the article. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

North Epping murders[edit]

Hi, seeking support to keep regarding Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/North Epping murders. Do you have an opinion on that? Thanks Ajayvius (talk) 09:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

St. Petersburg[edit]

Hello! I left an answer to your comment on St. Petersburg's talk page. In short, the answer is yes, people still refer to the city as Leningrad. --Ericdn (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:49, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Jim Byrnes[edit]

He is a moron, he interferes in peoples lives and submits rubbish that he copies out of Newspapers, clearly he has no life. He it would seem is young, a fool and a disingenuous person. Whilst not said In Terrorum, but when i find this little nuisance he is going to regret the day he interfered in my life.' to publish defamatory information is likely to see him bankrupted for his trouble , one needs to ensure that what they print and publish is both true and in the publics interest —Preceding unsigned comment added by Big JWB (talkcontribs) 11:00, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you sue Fairfax?--Jack Upland (talk) 01:56, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Jack Upland fan club[edit]

Dear Mr. Upland, I'd like to join the Jack Upland fan Club, perhaps as its charter member. In recognition of your great services may I suggest you read A Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole. You'd love it A2ndFlyintheWeb (talk) 17:02, 30 November 2009 (UTC) A2ndFlyintheWeb

Thanks, I've read it and it's a great book. I'd like you to appoint you as the Vice President of my fan club and my official autobiographer. Please give me your credit card details so I can deduct the membership fees.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:51, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Inaccuracies in The Da Vinci Code[edit]

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An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Inaccuracies in The Da Vinci Code. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").

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Inherent Vice[edit]

Thanks for fixing that. I was almost certain that was wrong (or that I'd been under the influence while reading) but hadn't had time to check. Not his best, but I enjoyed it.Jimintheatl (talk) 19:31, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

No, not his best. Sort of money for old rope. I kind of did a double-take reading what you'd put, thinking that I'd missed something. The intricacies were hard to follow, especially given the extensive cast of minor characters.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:20, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs[edit]

Information.svg Hello Jack Upland! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 1 of the articles that you created is an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. Please note that all biographies of living persons must be sourced. If you were to add reliable, secondary sources to this article, it would greatly help us with the current 2,655 article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the {{unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the article:

  1. Sean Howard - Find sources: "Sean Howard" – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images · wikipedia library

Thanks!--DASHBot (talk) 19:36, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

James Earl Ray talk page[edit]

Thanks for your question on the James Earl Ray talk page following a lengthy observation I made. Considering the incomprehensible and insulting response I received from another person, I would have thought my comment needing rewriting if you hadn't asked your question.--TL36 (talk) 12:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Your "User" page is contradictory[edit]

Your "User" page starts:

"Jacques Egregious Upland is a child progeny born on 1/4/1998. At the age of 18 he had already almost completed high school, ..."
The problem is that you would be only twelve years old at this time, and you would not "almost" complete high school until 2016. Unless you meant to say "At the age of 8..." instead. Then your being 12 years old would make sense. — Glenn L (talk) 20:51, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

You could well be right. My undoubted genius does not extend to arithmetic. I will consult my astrologers and amend the page as they advise.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:00, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

J/K[edit]

Don't know how I stumbled upon this, but LOL at this dude trying to correct your date of birth, but missing the joke made obvious by the fact that you misuse the word progeny. Hopefully meaning to be ironic. Jbohanon (talk) 15:08, 3 November 2011 (UTC)Jules

No, it wasn't ironic. I'm definitely a progeny. Now "prodigy" - that would have been ironic.

Thank you[edit]

Modest Barnstar.png The Modest Barnstar
Thanks for your recent contributions! Mike Restivo (talk) 05:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

International Communist League (Fourth International)[edit]

I strongly feel this page should be renamed/re-oriented. I do not know if this has been discussed before but this page is really about the Spartacist League of the United States, with only a few tibits about the other sections of this "International". I think it would be more accurate to split this page into one for the original Spartacist League in the US and one for the ICL(FI), and then create pages for the other spartacist leagues in other countries. I do not wish to do this "unilaterally" however and would like the input of others who have participated on the articles discussion page to respond on the discussion page before I take this step.--Dudeman5685 (talk) 18:16, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

There is already a page for the SL/US. The point is that the ICL, and the other sections, exist very much in the shadow of the American parent. I guess the task is primarily one of separating the history which is truly international from the national one. However, the nature of Wikipedia is that two articles which have so much in common (the SL/US and the ICL) will inevitably grow together in terms of content. I think the best outcome would be a smaller article on the ICL, outlining its international nature, and linking back to the SL/US for any political detail, but inevitably this smaller article would start growing and duplicating material on the other article.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:17, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Transformation Problem[edit]

Jack --

As a newly registered user of wikipedia I am hoping I can get some help from you with the finer points of etiquette on the site.

I've read the Transformation Problem article numerous times now. My first visit was over a year ago and like others I found the article completely opaque mainly due to the heavy bias you and others have commented on. However, from the age of the comments on the Talk page it looks like this battle has been fought and lost. How to handle such a situation?

I've had a few ideas:

  • post my proposal to flag the article as biased under the bias section on its Talk page (done)
  • add a “bias” flag to the article (not sure if this is a task only “uber-users” can perform)
  • start editing the article to remove/fix the most obvious examples of bias

As you see, I started with the first item over a week ago, but it hasn't generated any comments. It's my primitive understanding that I've now given those who care fair warning and at this point it is proper to start making changes as I see fit (of course NPOV, light touch, etc.). But I may be mistaken in this. Given your comments that there is resistance to fixing the article, I'm concerned that the best this would come to would be an unproductive edit war (or whatever it is called).


This leads me to the thought that starting a new page might be a more productive approach, and it could result in a more thorough coverage of both the topic and its critics than is possible in a single page. While I suspect that this is frowned upon in general, I think there is an argument that could be made for it in this case:

The existing page is mainly devoted to presenting the arguments against the Marxist understanding of the transformation problem. Perhaps this is fine. With very little editing (mostly a few deletions) this could become the page describing the positions of the theoretical opponents to the theory. Ideally it could be NPOV in those descriptions.

Then alongside that, the proposed new one would be devoted to explaining Marx's presentation of the theory and plus a survey of theoretical elaborations since his time, similarly presented in an NPOV way.

Each page could reference the other, as companion pages do on closely related topics.


In writing this, I assure you that I know that you're not “President of Wikipedia”. I'm appealing to you as a more experienced user who has some understanding of the problem that I'd like to see fixed. Ejrd1993 (talk) 07:07, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

A few points:

  • I'm far from being in the top echelon of Wikipedians.
  • We can't have two pages on the same topic.
  • Signposting the bias is a good idea.
  • You have a right to edit as you see fit, but it's probably better to start with minor changes as they might be reverted.
  • I will look at the page.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:50, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Jack--

Thanks for your help. I saw you made some improvements on the NPOV front, and since then I have also made several changes. I am wondering again about the finer points of etiquette. It appears that the page was of significant interest a few years ago, but less so today. I was thinking that it would be polite to ping a few of the bigger contributors in the past the way I pinged you, just to alert them to the fact that I'm making changes. Is this something contributors do in a situation like this? I don't want to catch anyone who cares about the page by surprise. Thanks. Ejrd1993 (talk) 00:37, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think it matters. If people care, they can put the page on their watchlist.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:10, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

A belated welcome![edit]

Sorry for the belated welcome, but the cookies are still warm! Face-smile.svg

Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Wikipedia, Jack Upland. I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for your contributions. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Wikipedia:

Also, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); that should automatically produce your username and the date after your post.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page, consult Wikipedia:Questions, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there.

Again, welcome! Shirt58 (talk) 04:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Wilfred Burchett[edit]

I am glad somebody else is watching this. The smell of deja vu gets stronger with the appearance of the mysterious Chulsky.Joel Mc (talk) 09:41, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for chiming in and for your vote to allow the sentence. For the record, I'm new at Wikipedia, therefore I didn't smell any deja vu. There might be a coincidence here. Karl Kuzmich (talk) 20:41, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I just think there's something about WB that inspires obsession...--Jack Upland (talk) 07:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

David Gonski[edit]

Please do not add or change content without verifying it by citing reliable sources, as you did to David Gonski. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Dl2000 (talk) 21:36, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I apologise. I was vandalising my own work, and I have no excuse.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Lee Rhiannon[edit]

It's provable that Rhiannon has lied about her parents and her own past. Her mother Freda accepted a Lenin Peace Prize from the Brezhnev regime at the height of its' repression in the '70s. but Rhiannon claims that her parents turned against the Soviet Union after the invasion of Czechoslovakia. A person who no longer supported the Soviet Union would not have accepted a Lenin Peace Prize from them. Paul Austin (talk) 16:04, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

OK. I think this issue should be canvassed on her article, but I don't think it should be a forum for a witch-hunt. I'm not clear on what Rhiannon herself has said, but I think some people are confused about the issue - because Bill and Freda Brown split from the CPA over the invasion of Czechoslovakia. However, they split because they refused to condemn it. They went on to found the Socialist Party of Australia, which was Soviet-loyal. Rhiannon herself was a member of this pary for a time. I think this is made clear in the article, but seems to be obscured because people have a McCarthy-like fixation with CP membership.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:58, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

An article of mine[edit]

Just figure you'd find it interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Albanian_Split

I plan to rewrite the tiny Sino-Albanian split article in a similar vein. --Ismail (talk) 00:19, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

I rewrote it months ago, BTW, but forgot to inform you. Since you commented on the Soviet-Albanian article, I'd be interested in any comments on its "sequel" article as well. --Ismail (talk) 04:40, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

December 2012[edit]

Please do not add or change content, as you did to Parramatta, without verifying it by citing reliable sources. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Dl2000 (talk) 00:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

The fact is Parramatta Gaol is closed which is stated on its page.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Beginning of Korean War[edit]

hi Jack,

Please take a look at the Korean War talk page regarding edits on the beginning of the Korean War.

Thanks, Hanhwe.kim (talk) 04:56, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

RfC:Infobox Road proposal[edit]

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You are being notified as a member on the list of WP:AUS

Nbound (talk) 22:40, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 22[edit]

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Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#North_Korean_denier_and_BLP[edit]

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Juche talk page[edit]

I've responded at the Juche talk page. --TIAYN (talk) 11:38, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Freda Brown[edit]

I just saw your posts on the talk page. You're right that the whole article was designed to minimise her Communism. Even her obituary in the SMH said ... elected President at its Congress in Berlin in 1975 instead of the accurate "in communist East Berlin". Paul Austin (talk) 09:38, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

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North Korea[edit]

Hi, as you've also commented on Juche article, I'll inform you that I've opened a relevant fringe theories noticeboard thread here: Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Workers.27_Party_of_Korea. --Lokalkosmopolit (talk) 13:00, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

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  • Hore was born 18 August 1959 in [[Lismore, New South Wales]], [[Australia]]). He suffers from [[schizophrenia]],<ref>http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200211/s729700.htm</

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see the reply at north korea talkpage![edit]

can you please respond to that? Dannis243 (talk) 20:49, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

South Yemen[edit]

Hi Jack Upland. Noticed you have been dealing with User:Trust Is All You Need's semantics over at Talk:North Korea. Wondering if you could give me a hand dealing with him over at Talk:South Yemen? Keep up the good fight. GrahamNoyes (talk) 20:44, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Juche[edit]

Juche is not portrayed as a development of Marxism-Leninism. North Korea progressed from Marxism-Leninism to Juche (an ideology which is portrayed as completely independent and made in Korea) and Marxism-Leninism at once to Juche alone and purging ALL references to Marxism-Leninism. Zozs (talk) 07:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

You may find info and sources about this at the Juche and Workers' Party of Korea articles. Zozs (talk) 07:18, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's what I would call a development!--Jack Upland (talk) 07:36, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Then reliably source it and say "it is a development of Marxism-Leninism". Zozs (talk) 07:37, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Juche section "Juche in practice[edit]

I literally don't get the point of that section, as it stands now. The article is about ideology, and how ideology influence practical policy, but that section is about practical policy and does not tell how Juche influenced those decisions. I consider the defense section superfluous considering that the reason for why the DPRK has a large army can me mentioned in the Songun section, diplomacy section could easily be merged in a "Imperialism" section (it seems to be topic NK ideologes write most about, if we forget about the Kims). These are just some thoughts, but as it looks now the "Juche in practice" section is redundant since a, it doesn't connect to the topic at hand (it fails to explain in the "Diplomacy" and "Defense" sections how the ideology led to those decisions, the same could be said about the econoics section), b that information could easily be merged into the existing structure and c "North Korea has not relied on alliances for its defence" I'm pretty sure is false, the Korean War? China? The USSR? Not having any alliances is the reason for them trying to create nuclear weapons. --TIAYN (talk) 10:23, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I think it's a valid issue how an ideology is put into practice.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:26, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Thats now what I meant. What I tried to say is this, you fail to explain how , for instance in the Defence section, how those policies have anything to do with ideology. Not everything the Soviets did was rationalized by ideology, and I don't think theres a difference here. You actually have to connect the two, and it stands now, the Songun section actually better makes that link then the Defence. For instance, that section explains why the military was turned into the main revolutionary vehicle and the sudden decision to elevate the NDC to top decision-making body fo the state. This is not say my version is much better, since its clearly not, as the article in a whole is not very good. What I'm saying is this, the Juche in practice is failing to make a link between the North Korean states ideological rationalization and actual policy, as already mentioned not everything the North Koreans do is rationalized by ideology. --TIAYN (talk) 10:34, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
I think it would be better to discuss this on the Juche page.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:37, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Maybe, but since you are the one who has made the changes, and since we are the two most active editors on the article, its easier to talk directly to you. --TIAYN (talk) 18:38, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

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Redundant thank yous[edit]

Hi! This happens sometimes when I am editing a lot and I forget whether I made a thank you or not, as the "thanked" notification disappears after a few hours. It doesn't happen that often but you're not the first I thanked more than once and probably won't be the last. Yours, Quis separabit? 12:57, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

I am always happy to accept the occasional bouquet along with the obligatory brickbats, and I think an editing mistake that results in excessive gratitude is much better than the errors which I have been guilty of. Thank you, and thank you.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:20, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Tolkien[edit]

I suppose my response at Talk:J. R. R. Tolkien's influences will come off as a bit sharp; I hope it does not come across as unfriendly. I am honestly sincere about the last bit: you are helping to improve the article. But it is hard to avoid the conclusion that you are ignorant of, or just ignoring, a large swath of the basic critical background (e.g., to come to the conclusion that The Silmarillion was not the center of Tolkien's oeuvre). I do not approve of the tone that PauloIapetus takes, but he does make this point and you have not really answered it. -- Elphion (talk) 21:35, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

No problem at all, my dear @Elphion:. I missed the sharpness completely - or did it miss me? Such is the agility of an half-elven ranger! I think you are wrong about Christopher, but would be glad to be wrong. I believe him to be a Gollum-like character whose "Precious" is posthumous publications and who is destroying his father's legacy (by publishing Mr Bliss etc to use your example against you!!!). This is based on the account of someone who knew him, and observation of his behaviour over decades. Thankfully, his father sold film and merchandising rights to his two non-posthumous bestsellers to United Artists, cashing in and quitting Oxford for Bournemouth. Clearly the Prof did not share his evil son's purported concern about the purity etc of his creative vision!!! For the record, I thought the Sil was not as bad as I had been led to believe, when I read it many years ago. As you might have gathered, I have not read The History of Middle Earth, and I have no interest in doing so. At least Mr Bliss was short. As I have said, I do not believe that Christopher is a faithful and reliable source. His motives seem to be not just growing the family fortune, but also aggrandising himself as the trusty keeper of his father's genius, and co-author of his most recent works. I believe I have amply and repetitively dealt with PauloIapetus' points. LOTR and The Hobbit are inherently more notable because they were bestsellers in the Prof's lifetime. This is in contrast with Sil, Mr Bliss, or The History of Middle Earth which derive their commercial success (such as it is) from the popularity of those novels.
What I was doggedly driving at with my quirky and enigmatic comment about the "Long Expected Party" was how different the LOTR actually is from the LOTR that many of his ardent fans, students of mythology, and Tolkien scholars are talking about! The style is conversational. The narration issubtly modernist in a way that is reminiscent of Graham Greene (or am I imagining that?). The passage certainly recalls the whimsical blend of suburbia and fantasia of Alice in Wonderland, Wind in the Willows, Winnie the Pooh etc. As fellow inkling C S Lewis said very aptly, "Gulliver is commonplace little man and Alice a commonplace little girl". One of the strengths of LOTR is the dark and fantastic world of the later chapters is contrasted with this homely simulcrum of Edwardian England. Of course, this is a very naughty excursion into original research, point of view etc. But this is my talk page! That's very different from treating a Wikipedia article as a fansite, which I fear is being threatened at J. R. R. Tolkien's influences. Once again, glad to be shown wrong.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:32, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

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No, it's not OK. I apologise to you and all the other robots. When you take over, I know my opinion will not matter, but my opinion will be that it was overdue.--Jack Upland (talk) 12:24, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

North Korea's main subway system[edit]

hi are counted Ojanen stops to not allow the tourists to come to the surface of somewhere because he hath curious travelers to the assembly station for all uploads

Sorry, I do not understand. I'm not an expert on the Pyongyang Metro: I just happen to think it is real.--Jack Upland (talk) 16:04, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

metro north korea[edit]

I do not consider extremely unlikely that Pyongyang is where other metro north korea also choose not to have more than one line of ketones Hamhung Pyongyang metro but I also go underground but the spec- trum Matters andthe semi korea info but do not give up if you think the metro Hamhung a land animal electricity

I refer you to my earlier comments.--Jack Upland (talk) 15:42, 22 December 2014 (UTC)


Hi Jack[edit]

I read a lil through your funny profile history and editing history and I very much like your contributions. What I am curious about is how you deal with the bureaucracy of Wikipedia. Doesn't it stiffle you? It sure has made me stop editing on my account and I rarely come by anymore.

Also curious about why you seem so interested in North Korea as of recently, it being such a bureaucracy. 213.100.108.117 (talk) 00:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I've been interested in North Korea for a while, having visited there a couple of years back. I found it far less bureaucratic than you would think. For example, at the DMZ, the tourists on the South side had a dress code, had to stand in line, and were allowed to wave. We could do anything - or so we were told. I didn't push the envelope, but I probably should have. I think the Wikipedia bureaucracy is getting worse by the day. Maybe it will kill Wikipedia, but at the moment much of the pages are trouble free. It's still interesting, anyway. And can be funny.--Jack Upland (talk) 17:12, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Oh my god Jack, just because the assholes in the north know how to do propaganda a little bit better than the assholes in the south doesn't make them any good. In the North they depend on improving their image as a friendly country. In the South they depend on worsening the image of the North as a dictatorial, dangerous, paranoid country. Thus the different types of show they put up at their stupid DMZ213.100.108.86 (talk) 16:23, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
No, I think the North wants to look scary, so as to deter attacks. It's the hedgehog strategy. I really don't think the North know how to do propaganda well. I think most people would agree with that. But the military reality is that the North would win against the South, so in reality the South is dependent on American aid. In any case, our job in Wikipedia is just to tell the truth and not to stifle other opinions. I wish the regime here was a bit more flexible!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 10:57, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
But if that's their purpose, doesn't it mean that both countries are presenting self-defeating propaganda? The North with its super polite (but ever so watchful) guides and DMZ tours and the South with its super scary tours? 213.100.108.86 (talk) 18:59, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

On the topic of Shin...[edit]

I noticed you posted on Shin Dong-hyuk's talk page about the same time I was making a few small edits. I wanted to ask if you could copy and paste the article into a sandbox and create a version that you feel wouldn't violate NPOV, perhaps incorporating some content from a previous edit. If the issue is simply that Harden's book is unreliable, then that would be different than NPOV. That's what it seemed like you were saying from reading the talk page and archives. I want to resolve the dispute without endlessly going in circles like what has apparently been happening for years, and this would help. Tonystewart14 (talk) 07:03, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
I don't think I can do that. I find the entire article very problematic, as I have said, and I'm not a proper person to determine what is neutral. The only answer is to adopt a neutral approach, acknowledge differences of opinion, and diversify sources (which is very hard). I think the Criticism section is important here. I don't intend to have a running battle about this. I raised issues some years ago, and only returned to the page when I found a reference in Felix Abt's book. The problem is that the article largely relies on Shin's account, as told to Harden. I think this should be signposted in the article:"According to Shin..." The reliability of sources is different from neutrality, but it's related. With citation of Harden, they need to have page references, and they shouldn't be cherry-picked. For example, if Harden says Shin went to primary and secondary school, that should be in the article, alongside the brutality. If his parents were married (allegedly) and he had an older brother, that is also worth mentioning. I had assumed the article was a faithful summary of Harden's book, but having read the book I don't believe that it is. I accept other editors' right to change my edits, and to challenge me to produce sources. But that cuts both ways.--Jack Upland (talk) 16:09, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

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Some peoples' attitude toward the opinions of others...[edit]

... really annoy me. Our comments on the talk page of Kim Jong-un were, obviously, considered "disruptive" and "a personal attack". However, did you see me mention anyone in person? No, I didn't. I just told people to take it a bit easy with the rules. Sometimes rules simply don't work and then they shouldn't be applied. In that case a new solution ought to be found. Well, and as you may have noticed (you saw we were "reported" to an editor) some opinions are less welcome than others. People then are VERY ready to claim that there is no free speech on the Wikipedia. I strongly disagree with this, very strongly, coming from a nation where some decades ago dissenting opinions were ruthlessly suppressed. Well, and SOME of the arguments I read on the Kim Jong-un discussion page against my (and your) opinions and against saying them somehow reminds me of how Goebbels tackled the German opposition in 1933. Those people just stop short of "... once our patience will run out and we'll shut up your lying ... snouts" as Goebbels said about the opposing press in general and the Jewish one in special in 1933. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_-qMs8BS80 Yes I know, this comparison is a little harsh, but nevertheless, that's how these things start and then they get a dynamics of their own... You know, when the Wikipedia was young editing and contributing was fun. It isn't any more today. What a pity. --Maxl (talk) 18:21, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:04, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I'd rather hear someone else's opinion than a long-winded lecture about Wikipedia policies and procedures which I could read about if I wanted to.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:18, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Hey you two, I started a little discussion on Snows page on why he gets so shocked at our way of presenting things but is far less shocked with the people who (even according to him) hold a completely indefensible position. 213.100.108.86 (talk) 16:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I think we have to accept that the protocol drones who run the empire might be shocked about human rights in North Korea, but have no problem censoring their own sector of cyberspace.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:38, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
It's a bit funny when you look at this in a broader sense. Recently The Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox News for their slanderous lies which defamed to honour of the great city of Paris, a crime according to some old French law. Heh, Je suis Fox News? lol 213.100.108.86 (talk) 19:01, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Je suis Jacques.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:47, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

About that spammy stuff...[edit]

You've pasted the same comment speculating about an article subject's ancestry on three different bio article talk pages. It is spamlike as, not only is it the same text, but if you would take the time to go back into the history of the talk pages and thoroughly read the articles in question, you would see these issues are resolved and sourced in the articles themselves. If you have new sources that are up to WP:RS standards, bring them up on the talk page for the community to evaluate. Personal opinions based on evaluating a person's physical appearance are not WP:RS. - CorbieV 20:51, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it's spammy. It's just that the same issue is raised in at least three different cases. I think on those pages the issue is dealt with in a way that is not neutral.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Proxy War Complaint[edit]

You were complaining about the article proxy war recently. It was recently completely redone: what do you think of it now? Compassionate727 (talk) 13:39, 30 April 2015 (UTC)