User talk:Jane023

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Contributions to wiki[edit]

Thanks, Jane023

I also much appreciate the contributions you have made/are making to the artist pages on wiki. Hope to see more of those.

Doewiets (talk) 05:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! Jane (talk) 11:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

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You may be interested[edit]

In this discussion about a category you've created: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Poland#Category:Zabytki_probably_should_be_renamed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:31, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

See also Talk:National_heritage_site#Requested_move. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
It's not merging, but expanding that is needed - some context is here: Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Monuments 2011/Infrastructure Jane (talk) 08:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

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Thanks for your comments on meta regarding health[edit]

Hello! You commented at

On one of those you commented about United States doctors overprescribing drugs. It is true - I am actually employed by Consumer Reports, the American equivalent of your Test-Achats or Consumentenbond, and my job is to add information to Wikipedia suggesting that in the United States medicines are far overused. Of course this is a American perspective also, and Wikipedia has to address a lot of problems about how to present health issues for various countries and cultures.

It is very difficult to learn what health information exists on Wikipedia or who is adding it. Many health articles are made by people who only develop a few articles and who do not talk with the larger Wikipedia community. Of the people who do participate in community conversations, I would say that the United States is not proportionately influential to its size, but then that does not explain why articles have the American bias you have noticed.

I am not sure what ought to be done but I favor more Wikipedia community conversations about it. Some reports are saying that Wikipedia is the most popular source of health information, and if it is popular, then it ought to be good for everyone also. This can only happen with diverse participation by people of many countries and cultures, but I am not sure how to make this happen. Thanks for commenting. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:25, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Well the Dutch tend to undersubscribe drugs, which can also be damaging - lot's of people go way too long without proper treatment, so there is no ideal health program in any country. My point is that you need buy in for 1 on 1 translations to work, but I have looked at the problem and I think the project is highly useful and buy in is possible (for the EU languages at least). I don't see a problem with drive-by editors or anonymous edits, only problems with unsourced ones. If this project can help track down reliable sources on a global level it would be great. I am also not sure how to make it happen, but one thing I am missing is at least one example of a non-English article being translated to English. It would help reduce American bias if there was more cross-pollination in the articles (merging back and forth, rather than just translation).Jane (talk) 11:58, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
So far as I know, there is not a single example in the history of Wikipedia of any health article in another language being of high quality, then cross-checked with English by any group of people. As you say, many European languages have their own communities and do not need English-language oversight. While we have tried to partner with people interested in health in other language Wikipedias, I think that the English health community has no regular collaboration with any Wikipedian who participates in an equivalent of WikiProject Medicine for their language. Indeed, I think there are no active WikiProjects for medicine outside of English, and that is a shame. We have contacted the Medicine WikiProjects which exist but were not able to establish regular communication. In our record at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine/Translation_task_force/RTT you can see the languages which accept translations and which do not.
I completely agree that a multi-cultural perspective is highly desirable, and we have sought that, but it seems not available for merely requesting it, and also we do not have power to actually establish or start WikiProject Medicine groups in other languages. The presumption is that these things have to come from the community itself, and are difficult to start externally. Thoughts? Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:51, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Well of course part of the problem may be your qualifier "high quality" as many projects have no quality system to speak of, so it's a tall order to ask for medical collaboration and also collaboration on the quality project. Also, in a project like the Dutch Wikipedia, wikiprojects are not that popular in general, and though there is a sort-of a village-pump "teahouse" for medical subjects, I have posted there before and received no comments at all. I think the best way forward is to work with chapters at getting names of potential Wikipedians who could sign up for a global mailing list. I think many people are otherwise not that involved and would not respond to user page queries. It would be also worth contacting any Wikipedians who made x (2? 3?) medical pages on whatever Wikipedia. Jane (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
I have doubts about this strategy because even in English Wikipedia there is not a solid community of editors developing health content. In any given month perhaps 30 people participate in community discussions and the count of active editors last year in medicine for English was about 120. To get high quality and diverse perspectives I think that we will have to go outside the Wikipedia community to get content from people who do not currently wish to learn Wikipedia, but who may be willing to write or review things for Wikipedia if someone helps facilitate what they do. I am not sure what is best. If you know anyone in medicine in Dutch, could you show them the Dutch translations we posted and ask them for comment? This is in the link I gave you. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:20, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

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User:Jane023/WGA Creators[edit]

Sorry I was traveling last week, but here is the list I promised. --Jarekt (talk) 18:09, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Sweet! Thx Jane (talk) 22:10, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Abel Grimmer[edit]

You're welcome. Abel Grimmer seems to be more than just an epigone of Pieter Brueghel. Like his cityscapes a lot.Caravaggista (talk) 14:34, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Me too, and he deserved more Wikilove, so thanks for that. Jane (talk) 15:06, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

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Vincent Malo[edit]

Hi Jane,

Have noticed that the Vincent Malo article now seems to contain some contradictions after the merger with Vincenzo Armmano. For instance he now dies in Rome and Venice and at the age of 45 and 50 and first lives in Genua for many years and arrives in Rome as an adult. In one story he is a landscape painter in the other a genre painter. See other biographies here: http://books.google.it/books?id=oFcGAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=soprani-ratti&source=bl&ots=VE7Pu4lp9u&sig=ByVTjcGO328eUIDhqt981QJjZno&hl=it&ei=TG1RTeyXGoa0lQfPmvSTCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=malò&f=false and here:http://www2.academieroyale.be/academie/documents/FichierPDFBiographieNationaleTome2055.pdf#page=133.

So it is not clear whether these two persons are actually the same. Caravaggista (talk) 17:37, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the headsup - I tend to go in and fix things in a hurry. A few years ago I thought these two were the same and merged them in my own list, but forgot to do it onwiki. The leading authority for artists born in the Netherlands is the RKD, and if they say these are the same person, then that's enough for me. The other inconsistencies are just inconsistencies. Most Dutch painters first trained as genre painters because that was a good market, then switched to landscapes when that market picked up. I will look at the links you have provided, and then send a mail to the RKD if it looks like they are indeed different people. Jane (talk) 18:29, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. It would be great if you could cite in the article why you believe the two are the same person. RKD mentions Armanno, Vicenzo (not Armann) as an alternative name, but it is not clear where they base this on. Passeri actually does not talk about Vicenzo Armanno but about Vincenzo Armanno or Monsieur Armanno. The biography of the two persons seems to differ in that the one dies in Rome according to Raffaello Soprani and the other in Venice according to Passeri. Also the differences in subject matter of the paintings is striking. So it would be good for readers to understand why there is this confusion and why you believe it has been sufficiently resolved to justify the merging of the 2 articles.Caravaggista (talk) 15:39, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Well I think I have had enough experience looking at the garbled biographies of Flemish/Dutch painters that lived out their lives in Italy to make that judgement call on Vicenzo vs Vincenzo and Armann vs Armanno. Passeri called some others some weird names too. Armanno could even be confused with Herman Swanevelt, who was called Armanno Fiammingo in Rome. This Malo (I) is probably also the husband of Gertruida van Veen (daughter of Otto who died in 1656) and thus the father of Vincent Malo II (born 1629), whose works have been misattributed over the centuries. Who knows for sure? I do believe that a fairly close match in birth/death dates and Cambrai/Italy is enough to link these two biographies up. There is some evidence to make articles for his wife and kid though I suppose. Jane (talk) 18:13, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate your experience working on wiki. My favourite scientist Lawrence Krauss always repeats that in science one should not look at authority but at the facts. As far as I can tell you decide to convict Vincent Malo to prison based on one fact: that RKD mentions Vicenzo Armanno as an alternative name of Vincent Malo. But RKD does not state anywhere that it is identifying this Vicenzo Armanno with the Vincenzo Armanno of Passeri. In fact, most facts mentioned by Passeri do not seem to have any relationship at all with the facts of the life of Vincent Malo described by Malo's earliest biographer Raffaello Soprani.
If you read Passeri you will have noticed that Passeri nowhere mentions that Armanno was born in Cambray. He solely states that he was a Fleming. He further writes that Armanno was not called by any other name but Monsieur Arrmanno. This completely ties in with the alternative names mentioned in RKD for Herman Swanevelt such as 'Monsieur Armand' and 'Monsu Armanno'. Armanno would be the Italian form of Swanevelt's first name Herman. The art historian Didier Bodart has compared the biography of Vincenzo Armanno by Passeri with that of Vincent Malo by Soprani in Les peintres des Pays-Bas méridionaux et de la principauté de Liège à Rome au XVIIeme siècle, Volume 1, Institut historique belge de Rome, 1970. Bodart came to the conclusion that there is absolutely no identity between the lives of the two persons described in these biographies. He argues that Malo is a history and genre painter while Armanno (like Swanevelt) is known for his landscapes. Bodart also shows on the basis of records in Rome that it was Swanevelt who was convicted by the Holy Chair in Rome. Also the character of Swanevelt as described by Passeri as being of a distrusting nature fully complies with that suggested by Swanevelt's bent name 'eremiet'. Bodart therefore makes a strong case for the identification of Passeri's Armanno with Swanevelt. Bodart states that in only one fact does Swanevelt's biography differ from that of Armanno: Armanno died in Venice while Swanevelt died in Paris. But in any event, neither died in Rome where the Vincent Malo of Soprani died.
Based on the foregoing facts, it seems that there are enough facts for doubting the identification of Vincent Malo with Vincenzo Armanno. In fact, there are strong arguments for the identification of Armanno with Swanevelt. For this reason, I suggest that the info about Armanno not be merged with that of Malo. The article on Vincenz Armann should be restored and the discussion about who he should be identified with (Malo, Swanevelt or someone else) carried on on that page. Until the scholars come to a unanimous view on this it is premature for wiki to make judgement calls either way (including on issues such as where or from what Malo died) Caravaggista (talk) 10:24, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Well there is only one Armanno in the ULAN, and that's Malo (I). Believe me when I say I don't take all that the RKD says on face value, and since I started work on Dutch & Flemish painters onwiki I am proud to say that I have successfully mailed them and gotten them to change some inaccuracies. Others claim they are full of mistakes, but I just take what they say with a grain of salt (like anything I read onwiki). Just as you doubt that Malo (I) and Armanno are the same person, I doubt they are two distinct Flemish painters. I just found another Vincenzo Armanni (1608-1684)here listed as an Italian writer. Going back to Passeri, I would be very reluctant to say he was overflowing with "facts", and I don't think he should be the only source for an article, unless you explain the situation with Swanevelt, making it a disambig anyway, not a bio. I would be against restoring a bio for Vincent Armann, but I guess "Monsieur Armanno" could be a worthwhile disambig page. I am somewhat surprised you are so into this, BTW! Thanks for the time you are taking with this - I never knew anyone cared about these stubs except me. Jane (talk) 14:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems you have not read what I wrote: in essence, the identification of Armanno with Malo is not secure and should not be presented as fact in wiki. An identification of Armanno is equally and even more likely. I repeat: Passeri never says that Armanno was born in Cambrai. I am also not sure how you made the judgement call that Malo died in Rome rather than in Venice (as Passeri) writes if you believe that Armanno and Malo are the same person. In wiki we should present the state of scholarship not our own judgements. If there are two conflicting views they should both be presented and certainly if they offer good arguments and are by respectable sources.Caravaggista (talk) 19:21, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Wait, I agree we should present the state of scholarship not our own judgements. I guess I don't understand what you want. Do you want to change the Vincent Malo stub or do you want the old situation with two stubs? I quite agree that the identification of this artist with his alias is not secure. All I am saying is that modern art history resources trump Passeri, by virtue of the scholarship that has taken place between then and now. If a triple of authorities (RKD, VIAF, Getty) point to Malo (I) when you search for Armanno, then we should too. Keeping the stub as we had it is just misleading for our readers. That said, there is nothing wrong with creating a paragraph in the Malo article about the Passeri bio mentioning that it has remained unrecognized by modern biographers. I have handled cases like this in the past (see Pieter Mulier II and Hans Jordaens). Jane (talk) 20:17, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

As indicated above, my view is that the article on Vincenz Armann should be restored and the discussion about who he should be identified with (Malo, Swanevelt or someone else) carried on on that page. I don't agree with the view that RKD etc. are authorities since science deals with evidence not authority (see wiki on Argument from authority). RKD is at best a data aggregator and seems to use as its primary sources reference works from the 19th and early 20th century. They hardly ever seem to be up to speed with the latest scholarship particularly if it concerns relatively obscure southern artists like Malo who spent a lot of time in Italy. Since RKD rarely provides inline sources, we can only guess why they state that Vincent Malo's alternative name is Vicenzo Malo. I see RKD as the beginning of research as it may give you a ball-park idea about an artist and some reference articles. But then the real research starts as one needs to read the original scholarly texts or consult the primary resources (if they are available). Caravaggista (talk) 10:01, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

But Passeri doesn't call him Vincenz Armann either. He calls him Vincenzo Armanno. Jane (talk) 10:21, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Well then the article should be renamed VIncenzo Armanno and an explanation provided why some people believe his real/alternative name was Vincenz Armann. In the end we know nothing for certain about this person since Passeri is our only, and not so good, source. Caravaggista (talk) 14:51, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

For a separate article about Vincenzo Armanno we should have at least one more source than Passeri. Do you know who called him Vincenz Armann? Because I can't find that one. Lots of Flemish painters died of fevers in Venice, but the note about his run-in with the inquisition is a distinguishing piece of info. I think it could be useful to discuss the trouble that Flemish painters got into with the inquisition in general. Apparently the Flemish were notorious for getting in trouble - something like that is even mentioned in Don Quixote (but that was earlier, around 1600), and much later, Houbraken mentions it again in his biography of Jacob Ferdinand Voet. Jane (talk) 21:14, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Have made an initial draft in the Vincenzo Armanno article for your review. Caravaggista (talk) 15:47, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Looks much better than what was there! It's good that it points to all three others, but it should include the others' nicknames, so Vincenzo Fiammingo for Adriaenssens is missing. It's not certain that Passeri was the first. There might be something else out there - did you check Baldinucci? Now the other three need to be brought in line and should all link back to this one too. Jane (talk) 21:58, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

If Jacob Hess writes he is the only source, I will just rely on his Gründlichkeit for that to be correct. In the end, I don't think Armanno may deserve that much attention as we don't know for sure who is and we don't have any paintings by him. His true identity is something that art historians may have arguments over. I only got involved because common sense seems to indicate that Armanno and Malo are unlikely to be the same person because their bios and specialisations are so completely different. And some of the scholarship seems to confirm that view. Caravaggista (talk) 09:29, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is all about discoverability. If we can help point someone in some Italian archive somewhere at the material you just found and gathered together, then they may be able in future to add to these articles (any one of them). As far as the Gründlichkeit goes, we are missing a short article stub for Jacob Hess. If you are interested, the Dictionary of art historians has a bio on him. Jane (talk) 11:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

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New article redirected[edit]

Hi Jane: I have redirected your recently created article Painting (object) to Painting, which explicitly covers the object as well as the action. In my judgement this is an unneeded fork. I see you were the only one to have edited it or the talk page, but I've opened up a section at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts#Fork of painting for discussion; if the project disagrees with my action, it can be easily reverted. Yngvadottir (talk) 12:23, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Flemish painters[edit]

Got you. But he lived and died in Antwerp sounds so sad. FRAYK (talk) 14:18, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh yes, I totally agree - notice I am not reverting you, I am just saying that the convention seems to have changed the past few years. I also noticed that when creating items on Wikidata, Wikidata can read (1650-1700) and convert it into birth and death dates, but not when it's like (Amsterdam, 1650-Antwerp,1700) or something like that. Theoretically you only need to create an item once though, so this is a very minor feature. Otherwise, I really have no idea why people prefer it one way or another. Jane (talk) 14:52, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

July 2014[edit]

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Pieter Jacobsz Schout may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "[]"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

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  • *[http://explore.rkd.nl/nl/explore/images/11187 Notes on Verspronk portrait]] in the [[RKD]]

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The Signpost: 09 July 2014[edit]

Disambiguation link notification for July 13[edit]

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This Month in Education: July 2014[edit]

14:07, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

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Flemish and Dutch painters[edit]

Thanks. Am trying to give these articles more meat, otherwise you get the impression that they are just another Dutch or Flemish painter. Viamor (talk) 09:22, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Well I just wanted to let you know that I noticed and I really appreciate it! Jane (talk) 10:01, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

militia group portrait or schutterstuk[edit]

Hi Jane, I have set up this redirect with the usual English term; please use this (by all means with the Dutch afterwards as above). We don't want to confuse Wikidata after all! Thanks, Johnbod (talk) 14:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, but I feel bad for all of the "schutterij" clubs in the Southern Netherlands and Belgium - we have sort-of usurped their article for these group portraits. Eventually this meaning should be split out from that article, because we definitely don't mean all of the large group photo's of schutterij clubs (or the Olympic team shots). I will try to untangle that one of these days I suppose. Jane (talk) 15:12, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 July 2014[edit]

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Wikimania 2014[edit]

Hi!

My name is Victor and I'm a storyteller and video producer for the Wikimedia Foundation. I'll be looking to capture stories about Wikimedians at Wikimania in London in a week. Here is an example of the kind of thing that I'm aiming to do. I saw that you're attending Wikimania and I was wondering if you might have some time to talk about the work you do about Haarlem and female painters on Wikimedia projects. Anyway let me know if you are interested, I'll be at Wikimania from the 6th-10th of August and would need maybe 30 minutes of your time. I can answer any questions you may have. I’m best reached at vgrigas(at)wikimedia.org

Thanks!

Vgrigas (talk) 16:16, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Victor, yes of course. I am always trying to get people interested in my data, so I would be very happy to talk to you! Jane (talk) 07:52, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

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This Month in Education: August 2014[edit]

Disambiguation link notification for August 22[edit]

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Wikipedia appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited List of painters in the Web Gallery of Art, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page The Hermitage. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

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The Signpost: 20 August 2014[edit]

Web Gallery[edit]

Thank You! More to come... WQUlrich (talk) 18:06, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

I really appreciate your work on this. Jane (talk) 20:11, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The Signpost: 27 August 2014[edit]

Thank you![edit]

Trophy.png Thank you!
Thank you Jane for appreciating my work; it made me feel invited to make love to all the men -and only one woman- mentioned on your userpage. E.Doornbusch (talk) 18:09, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

That's great E! I hope you enjoy it here, but I still think the place for all these external links should eventually be Wikidata. We are nowhere near being able to use those in Wikipedia though, unless we add the Rijksmuseum identifiers to the Authority control template, and as far as I know, we haven't done that for any other museum yet. I didn't realize there were so few comments by women on my user talk page until you mentioned it, and that is interesting. I think there are more women than men active in museums, so it's a bit odd. Thanks for the wiki love, Jane (talk) 11:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

The Signpost: 03 September 2014[edit]

An invitation to join WikiProject Women writers[edit]

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Hello Jane023! We are looking for editors to join WikiProject Women writers, an outreach effort which aims at improving articles about women writers on Wikipedia. We thought you might be interested, and hope that you will join us. Thank you!

--Rosiestep (talk) 15:41, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

The Signpost: 10 September 2014[edit]