User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Homophobia in the Ukrainian Wikipedia!!![edit]

Hello. I'm open gay Wikipedian from Ukraine. I want to report a homophobic activities of some administrators and patrol Ukrainian Wikipedia. Present direct and indirect discrimination. Related articles LGBT renamed, removed or changed beyond recognition and biased their content. LGBT friendly accused of "advocating LGBT"! There is even an article on a similar topic that is unique only in the Russian Wikipedia and is unrelated to common sense and the rules of Wikipedia[1]. Wikipedia Wikipedia, homophobes administrators and patrol called a "collection of information" and promote "non-traditional values." Homosexuality Article in Ukrainian Wikipedia entitled "homosexualist[2]." And Article hey do not have any relation to the topic of the article. There napsyano of MSM and that gays - spread the AIDS disease. User A1 promotes orthodox attitudes to homosexuality and phaye information on how it relates to LGBT church in the paper, which is irrelevant[3]. The new administrator Green Zero[4] has deleted many categories and articles on LGBT issues. particular category of gay writers. Me and other LGBT participants repeatedly verbally humiliated publicly. Addiction is especially thorough and biased. Although we attempt to write quality articles as possible and have contributed enough respect. That our existence they and other homophobes recognized as "LGBT propaganda." I and other LGBT Wikipedian very simple somehow affect this entire situation because this is unacceptable - it bullinh and in direct violation of not only LGBT rights in Ukraine but also the rules of Wikipedia! Thank you! Please help! --Rayan Riener (talk) 21:03, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

@Rayan Riener: Bystander here. I have added a POV template to the first article you linked to. Although I do not speak your language, Google Translate shows that the article is not very neutral. Could someone who speaks Ukrainian read the linked pages and tell us about them? --Tony Tan98 · talk 03:40, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Another bystander here with no opinion about content. The title of the first article is "Homosexual Propaganda" [5] so it's reasonable to expect that there would be non neutral information there. There's a different article called "Homosexuality" [6] that seems a lot more reasonable to me at first glance. If this is a content dispute, has it been addressed on the article talk page? I know the language, but maybe not as well as a native speaker. This example [7] is a proposal to rename the article. The title is not ""homosexualist" like is being claimed. The proposal is to rename the article from "Societal attitudes toward homosexualism" to "Societal attitudes toward homosexuality." The discussion on the proposal talks about how the words related to homosexuality are not native to the Ukrainian language. All versions of the word are adaptations of English. So the discussion is about what's the right word to use "homosexuality" or "homosexualism."
According to the user page, User:Rayan Riener claims to know Ukrainian, so my question is why are they not on the Ukrainian WP addressing this on the talk page there? What is being claimed in this English request is not reflected on the article. "There is even an article on a similar topic that is unique only in the Russian Wikipedia" --- I see the same article in Russian, Ukrainian and Polish, and they're not recent, they've been there for years. I don't know if Rayan Riener is fluent in English, but this request makes no sense to me. USchick (talk) 04:52, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Could it be that User:Rayan Riener does not understand English well and wrote the above post with the help of a machine translation? The user, "Green Zero" (admin), mentioned does seem to have replaced some instances of "homosexual" with "gay:" here, but I cannot make a judgement as I cannot understand the language without the help of Google Translate. However, that action was eventually reverted by another editor. Just out of curiosity, are there any articles named "Homosexual Propaganda" in other wikis besides what you mentioned? I know that on enwiki, it redirects to a more neutral section on Societal attitudes toward homosexuality. --Tony Tan98 · talk 05:09, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Based on their edit history, it's very possible that User:Rayan Riener has a very limited proficiency in English and contributes with assistance, electronic for very simple things, and a secretary for more complicated things like this request. Their user page is written in third person, like a famous person's profile. If they contribute in other languages, their profile is not linked to their English profile, and being from a region not friendly to their needs, there may be a good reason for this, so I'm assuming good faith. As far as I can tell, Rayan Riener is unhappy with the actions of admins on Ukrainian Wikipedia. It's hard to tell what those actions are, because we don't know his identity there, so I can't track the actual edits. Rayan Riener doesn't have a talk page, and even if he did, I'm not sure he would be able to use it, but it's worth a try if someone wants to do that. As far as "Homosexual propaganda" article, it exists in Russian, Ukrainian and Polish. The title reflect the actual term used in other languages and in parliament to write laws for several countries including Latvia. If they're legislating "Homosexual propaganda" people need to know what it means. In the lede it does a good job of explaining what the term means to both sides, those who do and do not support the idea of homosexuality. And it's written in a neutral tone. Both Russian and Ukrainian articles seem fine in the lede. I can't speak for Polish. In the Russian version, it even explains that "propaganda" is not used in the traditional sense, that it's a combined term. Yes, that's correct. It's a combination of two words that means something different than each word individually. In English "Homosexual propaganda" means something totally different, that's why it redirects. An example of a combined term in English would be "pretty cool" where each word separately means something different. It's also possible that Rayan Riener only speaks English, which would explain his outrage. USchick (talk) 07:24, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Rayan Riener I have to edit here as an IP because I am community banned here on English Wikipedia. But let me address some of the issues you have raised here. For the record, I am queer myself. :)

I have discussed the issues you raised above with some editors from Ukrainian Wikipedia, and in no particular order, the following needs to be raised:

  1. A checkuser on Ukrainian Wikipedia found that you have been "abusing" multiple accounts. In addition to your Rayan account, you also were using uk:User:Kvitka Cvit. Whilst this in itself is not a problem if you are creating content, like I have, where you ran into trouble is.....
  2. at this category discussion.
  3. on Wikipedia, we don't tend separate "gay" or "lesbian" from "LGBT" topics. Simply put, human sexuality is a complex subject and LGBT covers-all.
  4. many of the comments in that discussion from uk:Користувач:A1 are, I agree, totally unacceptable. Being a board member of Wikimedia Ukraine, A1 should take stock of what they have said there and think whether some of their comments were appropriate (they are not!), and perhaps Wikimedia Ukraine members should think whether his comments truly are representative of Wikimedia projects.
  5. the articles you mention which were deleted, there are several issues:
    1. This was deleted for being a copyvio of this.
    2. This was deleted for not being notable. It is available here and it simply isn't notable.
    3. Likewise this was deleted for similar reasons. It is apparently a yaoi manga by uk:Камо_Набако, whom himself does not appear to be notable.
    4. There were several other deletions of non-notable garage bands and the like.
    5. There were also several machine translations of articles. Don't use machine translations on articles, do natural translations.
  6. Apparently you sent invites to over 100 editors on Ukrainian Wikipedia inviting them to join an LGBT WikiProject. Whilst a project for LGBT subjects would be an excellent idea, it's apparent that posted invites to random editors, many of whom have not shown an interest in editing those subjects. Targeted invites to editors whom had shown interest in those subjects would have been a better idea.

On the general issue of so-called gay propaganda, I can attest that uk:Пропаганда гомосексуалізму is an absolutely horrific article. We need to remember that Wikipedia is the sum-of-all human knowledge, not just the sum of all Ukrainian knowledge, or Russian knowledge, or American knowledge. It is similar to Gay agenda here on this project, in that it does not present a worldwide view of the subject, and yes, all of these articles could do with a lot of work. Just be sure to aim for neutrality when editing and cover all points of view from a worldwide viewpoint. Good luck. (talk) 10:53, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps I should add that uk:Користувач:A1's views on this matter do not represent WMUA's position in any way. I, also being member of the board of WMUA, was actually opposing him in one of the discussions. Sincerely, Yury Bulka (talk) 15:44, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
@ This is off topic, but I see that you are a sysop on Commons, so out of curiosity, I would like to ask why you were banned here? It seems strange. Thanks, Tony Tan98 · talk 21:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
@Tony Tan 98: Extensive block log here. Looks like harassment, edit warring, various other things. 0x0077BE (talk · contrib) 22:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
  1. Thank you! What is not neutral? What section? --Rayan Riener (talk) 07:56, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
    Hi, @ So, before I had a lot of mistakes. But that was before. I consider myself a beginner and trying to improve my skills, and I think that happens. Ryan Riener account I lost, forgotten password in 2012. Flower Blossom account created in 2013 and used it about a year. But clinging homophobes and removed all the articles on LGBT topics that I translated from English Wikipedia. So I created a new account that I did not touch many months was it. Then, to regain its original account. Of course, I had problems with the creation of articles at the beginning. But now everything is quite different. Everything else, except one - the same homophobia. --Rayan Riener (talk) 08:20, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
  • In 1991, according to WHO recommendations, Ukraine was the first former Soviet republic abolished criminal penalties for voluntary sexual relations between adult men (Article 122, part 1 of the Criminal Code of the USSR).

The word "homosexualizm" is used right-wing nationalists, Svoboda or Right Sector (!) Or other parties that support Russia. But rights or Latvia or Ukraine - It does not enshrined in any law (!) A major Ukrainian parties like the "Popular Front" or "Block Petro Poroshenko" (including all coalition representing the majority of the Ukrainian people) call against homophobia, and also promised to introduce legislation on combating discrimination LGBT in Ukraine. --Rayan Riener (talk) 08:45, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

  • I'll try to add my 5c to help others (as well as Rayan Riener) better understand the situation.
    • First of all, it's true that Ukrainian society is not the most gay-friendly one: sociologically according to the recent poll only 4.6% support same-sex marriages. On the other hand, I have absolutely no idea what Right Sector has to do with it: while this party is widely used by Russian propaganda, it does not have any notable pro- or anti-LGBT-related activity. I haven't seen anything either about pro- or anti-LGBT activities of major nationwide parties, thus I have no idea how this is relevant to the case. At the same time, unfortunately there is a problem of users who make untolerant statements, A1 unfortunately being one of them. However, I hope such statements are not representatives of Ukrainian wiki community.
    • What is true that most mainstream Ukrainian sources currently use the term гомосексуалізм, while LGBT-community prefers гомосексуальність to represent homosexuality. I don't see any bias here as well: the term гомосексуалізм is also used by neutral news or scientific sources. It's not up to Wikipedia to change terminology, it's up to WP:SOURCEs to change first. There is no difference between the word homosexuality or any other term here: Wikipedia uses the term used in sources, whether you like it or not.
    • However, the main issue for Rayan Riener was not that he is an open gay, but his contributions and behaviour. I don't remember any problems with his contributions until he started actively breaching rules, and community largely ignored the fact he was an open gay. However, problems started after creation of 5 sockpuppets (uk:Вікіпедія:Запити на перевірку користувачів#Прохання про перевірку) with some small contributions to articles and active participation in discussions. Raising an LGBT-related issue in a discussion and promoting your point of view from 5 different accounts is definitely not the best way to do it: constructive, neutral and well-grounded arguments are much better way yo do it. On the other hand, vandalising articles by users who made anti-LGBT statements is not a good way to deal with the problem either. Similarly, contributing to the article on same-sax marriages with text that some people in Ukraine want to destroy the LGBT-community is far from NPOV: such texts are definitely non-neutral and in addition irrelevant. At the same time, the previous version of the article (before contributions from one of Rayan's accounts) was much closer to NPOV as it did not contain any comments on the situation, neither pro-LGBT nor anti-LGBT
    • Another point that was very negatively viewed by Ukrainian community was spamming talk pages over 250 invitations to WikiProject LGBT. I used the word spamming because most invitations were sent to people having absolutely no interest in the topic. In particular, most users having template User Against Homophobia received no invitations, while users identifying themselves as deeply religious did receive an invitation. An obvious reaction of many people who were never interested in LGBT was reverting the invitation, sometimes with unfriendly comments.
    • Finally, there was a problem related to use of sources. While LGBT-community finds that the fact that a person is a gay is very important, that is not true of other users and readers. The fact that a person is a gay might be worth mentioning in the article, but definitely not as a main (in the introduction) or the only fact, except if the person is primarily known for LGBT-activities. In addition, such facts must be well-sourced. For example, it is incorrect to write that Walt Whitman or Yukio Mishima were gays given the disagreement among biographers and lack of clear evidence, while discussions on sexuality are worth mentioning in the article. In the same way, Michael Cunningham should not be called a gay writer without mentioning that he refuses this indication. This is extremely important for living people where one should carefully use sources. In the same way, edits with sole contributions being adding the fact that a person is gay without any source, are badly viewed by the community.
    • To sum up, this whole story shows that the problem is not about homophobia — it is mostly due to very poor image most contributors now have of the WikiProject LGBT because of repeated breach of rules, including sockpuppetry, vandalism, spam and POV-pushing. I think that constructive contributions, as well as neutral, well-sourced and non-biased articles about LGBT-topics would be much better received by the community, as well as meaningful (and not emotional) arguments in sensible discussions. Most of these homophobia-related stories could have been avoided if articles were well-written and well-sourced, as neutral articles on what a person dislikes are less chances to receive a bad reaction than non-neutral articles on the same issues. I do hope that Rayan Riener and others will try to keep their contributions as neutral and well-sourced as possible as well as follow rules and guidelines, and this will make the situation much less heated — NickK (talk) 18:27, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
      • Disagree. Until I pchoav working on LGBT and in particular Articles LGBT project, REAL pressynh I experienced. There is discussion of homophobia and not me as a person. As I tsoum in question supports almost all LGBT Wikipedian who are afraid to write about it openly. All project participants complain about homophobia. When they removed the article only Sawm teum or written there that does not apply to articles. Right Sector consists of many organizations, including organizations "Trident". During Euromaidan, and I was in. I had nowhere to stay, because in my city mayor threatened me as "Titushky." But in the same tent, where I stayed, was "trident". They began Torment, was over the fact that I picked up things as they planned physical punishment, I told the other activists. I was forced to go live in the hostel without food or as to the Navier Street. I could not even go to the area because they threatened me. They always smoked prymyaly drugs and had sex with girls in the tent, in the city center (!) And then you ubdete to me that the right sector and all its participants is okay, and the use of terms extrinsic civilized right ?! I am for all the years of Wikipedia is constantly trying to improve their articles, but almost always had to learn all over himself, because the plot Ukrainian Wikipedia is not to rule "delete last resort", and such as A1 users that do not interest the article by rules and "Society and homosexuality, "we are almost sure renamed, despite the many voices and arguments against. Argument user A1, which clearly confirms bias and inadequacy and failure criterion removal of articles: "Category is homophobic and violate the rights homikiv. Take a good look at its contents. There Article 4 - Gay Bar, Gay Games, gay pride LGBT rights in Ukraine. The author of this category might think that all this passed into history? So it is not. And gay bars and gay games and gay pride parades in bloom and smell. This is not a story, it is a reality. How can you write off our rainbow reality in history? It's homophobia!"ЛГБТ The venerable user Brunei commented on this: "Even there is no desire to vote. Gross violation of rules. Plus the constant generation of conflict on level ground. I understand that Mr difficult days, but all of us is not easy. Suggest send it to rest for a week or another." And now the user A1 with his friend Green Zero znvou took up his. Not only is the article Homosexuality, is evident from the discussion, have long had to be renamed to international standards and Ukrainian, because all terms have long been included, they ATK pryynyalysya distribute the radyanskyy dates and other items. Or psyaty danger of MSM in such articles as Gay and others. His invitation I did the first time. And nowhere spelled out, considered spam and what is not in the rules ni. Tsoho wiki. Instead, "spamlyat" invitation anyone wiki. And on user behavior Jphwra, who called me "idiot". Violated writing my articles or improvements when working with template "writing", and at the same time put Nav ydalennya more than 10 articles, some of which are not even informed about the real authors. Matthew Shepard Naprkylad article! He was motivated by the fact that the bar is red link! Although his articles have a lot of those who do not meet the criteria of significance at all. The article he argued removal as "the importance of the project?" The article as Hardkiss, it is not surprising that thought put to delete article Kazaky. All my complaints to administrators simply wiped out, although yatam explain the behavior of all the people who cry out to me althoughbe blocked by something. The same is arbitrariness in the Russian Wikipedia. Curator LGBT blocked by some trifle, like most LGBT contributors. Although they were good Wikipedian. And regarding rights sektour and freedom - these marginalized - in nyhu political agenda spelled "fight antimoral Western propaganda" in one form or another. These parties are the same as the marginal pro and recently the same strength or their followers burned historic Kyiv cinema "October" and then blocked another theater, where he was to appear LGBT film. Do not lie, I'm writing here is not about homophobia, as Western people see everything very clearly. What I chose not to remain silent, others, and say - that's the difference. And so all of a school, and just as Wikipedia. Ukrainian Vikipediyinichym no different from the Ukrainian society, and now - and in general - supports rhetoric rightwing groups and religious organizations. I never their faith no imposed when homophobes active Wikipedian-in cap put articles on LGBT deprived neitralnosti rants about "traditional tsinnnosti."

Homophobia - that's what I wanted to tell. And my mistakes, nothing to do. On my page in Ukrainian by Wikipedia (at the end) is the link to my contribution and everyone can tell whether it is "homophobic propaganda" or so terrible to say that I have really bad Wikipedian what a pity that yevandalom (to quote Mr. Green Zero). The only difference is that I'm the only one who dared to write about it at the risk of their articles. Others wrote to me in private messages and support because they are afraid to say it out loud because of their contribution to do the same as with me, or block. In the words of Mr. A1 - "Wikipedia is censorship." I do not know in English, but in Ukrainian, censorship is a small range of users that are administrators and patrol and abuse their powers for LGBT discrimination. A fault for all comers, the EU's my article on the blog (Ukrainian)[8].

Hikaru cite comment regarding renaming: First or "homosexuality" or "homosexuality" is not a native words in Ukrainian language. The term "homosexuality" moved to the Ukrainian language in English at a time when it is mistakenly considered a disease and then in our totalitarian country punishable by imprisonment. Now the disease is not considered either in the world or in Ukraine, why we have to use outdated erroneous terms of foreign origin that have been imposed by the then government? Second suffixes -ism and -ist in Ukrainian language (as in Russian, Belarusian) denote 1. deliberately chosen ideology (fascism, feminism, communism) 2. artistic directions (romanticism, classicism) 3. The concept of language properties (neologism phraseologism). Scientifically proven that homosexuality - it's not a conscious choice. Third term "homosexuality" is not scientifically justified and violates the uniformity of language - "homo" is a prefix, like "heterogeneous", "bi-", "trans" with all of these words used "sexy" (the difference in these words but their meaning). In addition to the examples of "fascism", "feminism", "communism" we use the adjective "feminist", "communist", "fascist". Did anyone says Ukrainian "homoseksualistychnyy" or "homoseksualistskyy"? And finally the whole world believes the term "homosexuality" is not politically correct, and the LGBT community does not use it for self (while homophobic and homophobic organizations deliberately use the term "homosexuality" for humiliation and contempt for LGBT demonstrations). So what is used in the Ukrainian Wikipedia is a word that violates the Ukrainian language is considered derogatory, not scientifically justified, and has a number of other contradictions? Just because it is not we imposed our elected government 70 years ago? The word "homosexuality" all of the above issues and controversies denied. Definitely against.

That discussion renaming dstatno even a simple translation to understand what is happening:[9] [10]. Numerous voices and arguments ignored. And do the same by users who have power and use it against LGBT people, as it was deleting the category "Writers gay"

Even if all this does not help, English-speaking people need to know that information about LGBT people in Ukraine deliberately distorted, and instead of consensus homophobes use their powers everywhere to LGBT travyly the streets, burning theater, attacked gay clubs, or shot, both the NPT; What Should Wikipedia? Neitralno inform people about all significant phenomena that occur in life, or cause a wide range of readers hated minority? Excuse me, is a kind of hell and nowhere to turn... --Rayan Riener (talk) 00:58, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Google translate is not, of course, the best way to express your point of view. It is not the best way to understand your opponent's either. You wrote in the beginning: "Absolutely agree." But according to what you wrote next, you didn't quite understand what Nickk meant. IMHO, even if he wrote it in Ukrainian - you wouldn't either. Because you don't want to.
As for me, I am not homophobic. I didn't take part in any of those discussions that all of you mention above. But I am against ANY propaganda, especially in Wikipedia articles. So, @Rayan Riener: Learn what is neutrality in Wikipedia and start to make contributions according to it. Stop being so emotional and biased about the topics you work upon - and in a while you'll see that there's no real homophobia addressed against you or your contributions (of course it will exist among users as any other POVs do, but it'll simply become irrelevant). You do this - the problem vanishes. Why do I think so? Because if I suddenly started working upon articles like those you do - no one would be able to reasonably accuse me in being prejudiced.-- Piramid ion  21:33, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Woe translation... But I repeat. I speak for all LGBT wikipedians who are intimidated and overwhelmed. They agree with everything I say. Regarding quality I've written - something that is critical of me for some reason does not apply to all others. Fault-finding, provocation, violation neitralnosti to promote hatred towards LGBT people. Subsequently, the appeal will be submitted in relation to this, writing that would not be me, but which I will sign and including all. --Rayan Riener (talk) 23:49, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Note: Someone mentioned an article called "homosexual propaganda" on the Russian WP. Russia has a law about "homosexual propaganda" which has sparked much controversy and outrage, to say the least. it is not surprising that there be an article about it. All the best: Rich Farmbrough14:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC).

I know little about Ukraine or Russia, but I would ask whether a broader focus on documenting human rights could be useful. Though perhaps in ignorance, I feel like the West failed in Russia because they never truly legalized freedom of religion: both Catholicism in Russia and Protestantism in Russia speak of severe legal obstructions that have kept such faiths almost unknown, while a servile Russian Orthodox Church finds a politically safe common ground in stirring up anti-gay prejudice rather than exploring deeper principle and genuine social awareness. A Christian moved by genuine faith, working independently of government and social approval - even if misled by anti-gay doctrine - should eventually do better than this out of the desire to do good. I would like to see work done on our English articles on human rights in Ukraine, such as Baptists in Ukraine, with a statement that despite the 1996 constitutional guarantee of religious freedom, "However, as a minority and non-traditional religion the Baptists have been subject to persecution and discrimination, including being arrested." -- with a citation needed annotation placed in 2010! If people who speak Ukrainian can document contemporary religious freedom issues and the range of religious organizations available in Ukraine from local sources, and if we can get some translators lined up to keep the lines of communication open, we could improve both Wikipedias, and show why Ukraine is a nation worthy of respect in the world, and plot the path that Russia needs to take so that religious doctrine can become something other than a convenience for politically expedient bullying. Wnt (talk) 15:31, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Let me begin by saying that I feel for the plight of Russian and Ukrainian people the same way that I feel for the plight of women in the Arab world. Yes, it's bad and inhumane. On the other hand, does a country not have the right to govern itself? The idea that "the West failed in Russia because they never truly legalized freedom of religion" is not the West's business if that's how a country wants to establish itself. To use an example from the West, the US failed to establish a national language, and as a result, Spanish is used in a lot of places to the point where an English speaker can't function in those places. So what? Is this a failure of the East? Did the East fail in its commitment to the West? The Russian empire managed their own affairs for many years before the Internet and before the West got involved. Why is the West getting involved now? People in Russia and everywhere else are capable of making their own decisions about where they want to live and how they want to be governed. Let's respect that. USchick (talk) 18:39, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
(e-c)No, a nation-state does not have the right to govern itself in a manner that denigrates its own people. This has been established in international law. There seems to be a school of thought out there (some times classified as "liberal" when it is not even close) that says everyone has a right to their own opinion, all thoughts are equal, every one gets to play. Bullshit. No, we don't have to "respect" their differences, its not like "oh, how cute, they drive on the left side of the road", they are wrong and doing wrong things to their people. I'm not saying the USA is perfect, always right, or in any such manner a special experiment that is a "light unto the nations" or "city upon a hill", and I certainly don't subscribe to the conservative belief of American exceptionalism, codified in many text books (especially in the South). But when it comes to fundamental human rights there is a right, there is a wrong; for the most part we now have it right though Ferguson MO events and the states and groups fighting against LGBT civil rights shows we still have things to work on, while Russia and Middle Eastern and many African nations have a long way to go to get out of the "wrong" category and even close to "right". As James Carville would say "We're right. They're wrong".Camelbinky (talk) 20:36, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, the Cold War was largely a culture war, and the West made no pretense of disinterest in fighting it. In some aspects, such as capitalism, the West was indeed too arrogant in lauding itself the victor, especially considering how the Chinese continue to write new chapters at the end of that story. But there should have been no Western ideal more central, more essential than the fundamental and universal human right of free expression, the source from which all other rights emanate. To me, a moral relativist argument like yours seems like it would be better if it were entirely amoral -- if it is not wrong for the Russian government to deny freedom of religion to its people, then how can it be wrong to interfere with that government's internal affairs? Either do not trouble me with morality and let me follow my whims however I wish, or allow me to encourage freedom wherever I find it. Despite that, any suggestion I can make here, or the West as a whole can make, has very little chance of having any impact - what matters practically is what the Ukrainians decide to do about their Wikipedia and their culture. Wnt (talk) 20:28, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes of course, by all means, on Wikipedia you can follow your whims AND encourage freedom. And the Russian government did not deny freedom of religion to its people. People are free to be as religious as they want to be and to attend church. This is something that was not allowed before. The accepted religion is Eastern Orthodox. I agree completely that Ukrainians need to decide their own future. In Ukraine and on Ukrainian Wikipedia.

Some time ago, I conducted an experiment. He wrote articles intentionally poorer quality than my on various topics. This article gave some Wikipedian and they published them. Never, no claims to these articles. The fact that the homophobes in Wikipedia identified me "chief propagandist" and want to block althoughbe for something. Therefore, meticulously searching mistakes provoke and so on. That is true. Many articles in the Ukrainian Wikipedia "hang" in the form unacceptable, with no reference at all, and I do translations from the English Wikipedia where neutrality is checked. But that homophobes in Ukrainian Vikipedeyi not want to accept reality, they do not want to see any articles about LGBT Wikipedia that they distorted their original homophobic "research." --Rayan Riener (talk) 13:54, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

You wrote poor articles on poorly known movies, on hardly known topics. Who cares about them? The community cares only about particularly popular, controversial topics, among which is LGBT one. It's no big deal that in this case people began to react on what you write. Do not make doubtful conclusions and try to realize, that nearly all edit wars and other things like that start around either very popular or very controversial topics. And nearly all of those wars are based on the absence of neutrality in someone's POV. Sometimes it's both opponents that lack neutrality. Here and now I affirm that it is you who lacks neutrality. Of course there are also others who do. But exactly you are the most concerned about it.
Oh, and I need to mention that you don't do translations from English Wikipedia, you do machine translations from En-wiki. And exactly the low-quality texts you create cause a lot of complaint chatter throughout our wiki. And I'm glad that you've stopped creating those poor-quality pages and started to work on those you'd written already. That's a good decision. -- Piramid ion  21:29, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
It's your personal opinion. Injustice and I have proved by experiment. Also, homophobia, and agree with all LGBT Wikipedian, most of which you do not even know, because they know what will happen if bullinh Coming out. Latest your article (which you've done a bunch) contain only a cap (a few paragraphs) and a bunch of red links. So can hardly your advice and comments can be taken seriously. Since you are talking about individual cases in my articles as all my articles. And tsoum chapter, I raised the general problem of homophobia in the Ukrainian Wikipedia. --Rayan Riener (talk) 16:51, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
A "well done article" is not about how many red links it contains. Shame on you, that you don't understand this, given that you are the author of nearly 800 articles. It's about how it is written - is it neutral? is it correct? is it credible? is it readable at all? What's wrong with one of my latest articles (uk:Argyre Planitia)? and what's wrong with yours (uk:Захопи центральний район за допомогою любові та миру), nearly 90% of which people had to delete after the discussion, cause it was unreadable? It was a machine translation. And you don't wanna understand what people tell you. That's all. -- Piramid ion  15:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
It looks like uk.wikipedia does not have a WP:Draft namespace.[11] Do you think it would help to set this up, so that editors would have an obvious place to dump a simple machine translation of an article until they do more work on it to make it understandable and reliable? Wnt (talk) 17:30, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
But we have! It is called Інкубатор, but is rarely used by newcomers. Instead, our users encourage inexperienced ones to create new articles in their own user namespace, and only after such an article is finished, to move it to the main namespace by renaming. Nevertheless it is not prohibited in uk-wiki to create low-quality articles in the main namespace, provided that the author keeps improving his article. If the author doesn't, the article should be either moved to his namespace for revision and completion or deleted straightaway. If an author has already created a few hundreds of articles - he should already know the rules. And if he doesn't comply with them, his contributions become a kind of a problem for the whole community. And this is the case, I guess.-- Piramid ion  18:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I checked it once again, and seems that we don't have such a namespace. We have only this "incubator" thing, but no one really uses it. And I think that a real "draft" namespace wouldn't be used either. Though I might be mistaken. It's just that people often don't want to create nice, readable articles, they prefer machine translation instead. And moving a page to one's private user namespace rarely ends in a creation of a fine, qualitative article.-- Piramid ion  19:37, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Here is a category, created by one of your sockpuppets: uk:Категорія:Манґа жанру яой. It belongs to only one parent category, which is itself (!). Every article in this category has been created by you, doesn't have interwiki links, is about hardly significant (as for an encyclopedia) erotic gay adult manga and nearly every one of them contains a description, which is a metaphrase of the appropriate description which can be found in one of the links you give as references to this article. Which demonstrates that you don't understand the rules of Ukrainian Wikipedia AT ALL. And this also shows how much predetermined you are in this case as well.-- Piramid ion  15:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I checked this topic (I mean Yaoi manga) in en-wiki and I think that you should take a look at the articles in the appropriate category:Yaoi. And see how these articles should be written. Oh, I've forgotten, my advices cannot be taken seriously as I've been creating too short and too "red-linked" articles lately, right?-- Piramid ion  16:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Everyone please cite links to the articles you mention here, and preferably diffs (this is an example) for particular edits or comments. This is especially important when we don't understand what you are saying. Wnt (talk) 18:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Request for Jimmy[edit]

Jimmy, without passing judgement on any people involved in the issue as it related to Ukrainian Wikipedia above, can you please make a statement condemning any sort of homophobia on Wikimedia projects. I am aware of numerous instances in the past where people can asked you to speak up against homophobia and you have not done so. So that LGBT editors on our projects know that you stand with LGBT editors, such a statement would go a long way to ensuring that homophobia will not be tolerated on Wikimedia projects. Thank you for your time. (talk) 10:48, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia as a part of the controversy[edit]

I'm not even going to try to hide what I'm talking about. There has recently been talk that, the longer the GamerGate page stays on Wikipedia, the more close Wikipedia gets to becoming a part of/source for the controversy. Has such a thing happened in the past, where Wikipedia gets dragged into a major controversy/heated issue/shitstorm? If not, do you have any idea on what might be done in future things with a heavily on-internet nature? --DSA510 Pls No H8 03:49, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

This is not a "major controversy". Most people haven't even heard of it. All I see is a lot of WP:SOAP. RGloucester 03:56, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Something about images of Muhammad, perhaps. Or the FBI-seal. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:18, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes. See List of Wikipedia controversies for a partial list. However, I don't see the existance of a GamerGate article as being a major controversy. Certainly it has only had limited coverage so far. - Bilby (talk) 06:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Isn't our GamerGate article longer than our WaterGate article (I believe I read that in the news)? The problem isn't covering the controversy, it's that WP has taken a side and editors have taken sides while still trying to claim their side is NPOV. The opening sentence is the first clue as it's never written that way by mainstream outlets that are covering the controversy and not a part of it. --DHeyward (talk) 20:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
I'd personally be interested to hear how you'd rewrite that first sentence, along with a full explanation of how mainstream outlets do write it and how your proposed version is a better fit to reliable sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:11, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Here's an ABC news Opinion piece: For some, GamerGate is about the "ethics of gaming journalism," about the alleged collusion between video game developers and video game journalists, and about the response of gaming journalists and websites to such accusations. For others, GamerGate is about the misogynistic culture of video games, a culture that exists both in the sexist portrayal of women in video games and in the violent threats that have been made against women who have criticized this culture.[12]. I think that is fair opening sentence that doesn't diminish or relegate any particular view (I don't have a preference for which is listed first as long as it doesn't marginalize anyone) - and I would put it as past tense (not that my view means much). Game journalism sources are more difficult to find as they are reluctant to critically cover themselves (that's not unique, mainstream media does the same thing when they are part of the story). GamerGate is not one single thing and there are plenty of "outside of gaming" sources that place it as left vs. right, male vs. female, libertarian vs. social progressives, millenial vs. genx. Our first sentence (the last time I read it) was a definitive "GamerGate is" statement which if it were so clear cut it would have ended in about a week - gamers haven't been known to really care about portrayals of women in games and it's not like "Depression Quest" was about to put "Grand Theft Auto" out of business. Here's the "Reason" piece that mentions Wikipedia.[13]. Here's a Vox piece by Ezra Klein on the real reason I think it exploded and continues [14]. I think it stays alive because it provides a platform for various elements to keep talking about their own agendas which isn't even related much to games anymore but #GamerGate is a much more hip way to attract attention. Whether it's a feminist platform or whether it's a "journalists are leftists" platform, both are keeping the hashtag alive so they aren't drowned into irrelevancy. Gamers, historically, could care less about either and are caught in the middle. That case is made in mainstream media but is drowned in the voices that are platforming. Two other interesting pieces by Cathy Young [15][16] --DHeyward (talk) 22:01, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
P.S. The pinnacle interpretation of the Blizzard CEO condemning harassment as coming down hard on GamerGate was followed by Then, at that same convention, Blizzard also announced a new game called Overwatch. One of the main characters in the team shooter game is named Widowmaker. She's a well-endowed assassin in a revealing, cleavage-emphasizing catsuit with a sexy French accent (and, of course, heels). Is this a problem? Only if you accept the false consumer choice that the entire industry can appeal to either the id of a male gamer audience or the progressive demands of feminists, but somehow not both.[17] --DHeyward (talk) 22:26, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
That opinion article you cite above is a beautiful example of cherry-picking sentences while ignoring the context, because that opinion article goes on to completely reject GamerGate's claims to be about "ethics in journalism" and, in fact, argues that Thus, if the "ethics in gaming journalism" side of GamerGate wants objectivity in game reporting, then it is only through the efforts of the feminist side of debate that we have seen any real strides taken in that direction. In other words, Anita Sarkeesian and those who are similarly "printing what someone else does not want printed" about games, are not the enemy of "ethics in gaming journalism" - they are the best representatives of it. That is not an argument in support of the idea that GamerGate supporters care about ethics in journalism — rather, it is a direct repudiation of that idea.
Citing three pieces from the same libertarian house organ does not help demonstrate how "mainstream sources" view the issue. Rather, it's instructive to examine the front-page article in The New York Times on GamerGate, headlined thusly: Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign. This is not an outlier, rather a prime example of the mainstream coverage of the movement. Others: GamerGate: facing misogyny in the video game world from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, #GamerGate: the misogynist movement blighting the video games industry from The Telegraph, #Gamergate leads to death threats against women in the gaming industry from PBS NewsHour, etc. etc. etc.
The vast, vast majority of reliable sources covering the issue focus largely, if not exclusively, on the issues of harassment and misogyny that were brought to the fore and give the "but ethics" claims only the most dismissive of mentions — usually discussing them as "purported," "ostensible" and otherwise pointing out that the movement never actually raised real ethics issues. Reliable sources, in general, adhere to the POV that "ethics" was a smokescreen for misogynistic harassment. Our article must reflect that that POV is predominant. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 09:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
The day Gawker Media becomes a widely used RS is the day I know Wikipedia is dead. And, the narrative is failing. The media witch hunts are being questioned. Even now, the chairman of the IGDA Puerto Rico is being thrown under the bus for calling out anti-gg. So let me ask you, how's the smokescreen going for the cronyism in journalism and the gaming industry? I'm not pro-gg, I just didn't drink the Kool-aid™. --DSA510 Pls No H8 09:20, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Literally none of those links are to Gawker, so I have no idea what you're even talking about here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:12, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
20k diverse set of people harassing women for 3+ months for no benefits, or journalism becoming more and more corrupt? I've been doxxed, my life potentially in danger for trying to question the narrative, by anti-gg. I find it harder and harder to stay neutral. And, in what magical way can Gawker Media, a network of awful blog sites/e-tabloids, be defended? --DSA510 Pls No H8 09:25, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
And as usual, the sources provided do not do any research, because it might break the narrative. --DSA510 Pls No H8 09:29, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Being doxxed is bad, and it seems it happened to Fine Young Capitalists, along with death threats and DDOS. I'm not sure of the exact timeline, but it does somewhat give the lie to unambiguous readings of the situation as GG bad, anti-GG good. There are also facts which are widely known and not in dispute, but (possibly) not attributable to RS, that urge us to tread carefully. I would urge people to consider that the journalists who are reporting on this are basing their stories, by and large, on the type of sources we do not generally use (and with good reason), and drawing conclusions that we would not permit ourselves to draw.
I am even more concerned at the damage that this dispute is causing to the fabric of the community. Numerous instances of bitey behaviour have occurred, ramparts are thrown up and wording which would be summarily made neutral in any other circumstance is defended to the death.
The concept that "#GamerGate is not something Wikpedia covers at present" is not totally abhorrent to me, given the relatively minor nature of the dispute IRL (in real life), and the difficulty of covering an issue bearing where one side claims journalists are unethical, and for which the only RS are journalists.
All the best: Rich Farmbrough16:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC).
I think there is much reason to be skeptical about this controversy. It all began at a one-day filming session for "GAME JAM", a TV reality show in which people reportedly tried to deliberately stoke controversy, such as asking Zoe Quinn 'sexist' questions.[18] I have seen no core philosophical innovation here by any party on any side, rather what smells like PR and social media maneuvering with obvious careerist motivations, whether to tear others down or build oneself up. Whether this is all some new sort of reality show filmed "in the wild" of the internet, or one that has escaped and gone feral, in no case is it worth Wikipedia getting polarized by these ever-shifting and ill-defined disputes. What we are challenged to do is to see that our own policies fairly and effectively. Wnt (talk) 17:47, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
There are many stories where Wikipedia is front and center - however the gamergate controversy is not one of them. Wikipedia has only been mentioned tangentially in any coverage of gamergate - and its likely to stay that way unless the gamergaters turn their harassment campaigns against Wikipedians and wikipedians report them. the view of Wikipedia's involvement/importance in the issue is probably coming from the perspective of someone too deeply personally ensconced in the bubble in both aspects. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
@NBSB I was asked for an opening sentence. "GamerGate is X" is simply wrong. Take the PBS case by NBSB: opening sentenct is Members of the gaming community launched a campaign in August called Gamergate as a response to allegations of unethical journalism. But it has grown to include outright threats against women who work in or critique the industry. That's not much different than the ABC opinion piece. It is not defined by only one side which is why it lives. Certainly all aspects should be covered including misogyny and harassment. It should cover journalism. It should cover consumerism, etc, etc. It should cover comparisons to other issues involving games such as mass shootings (and why that angle to gaming culture died down relatively quickly after real people died vs. hanging on despite in GamerGate). I think it's also clear that it is now a platform from which to speak as opposed to simply a dispute that even involves gamers. Also, I cited three different sources; Reason, ABC and Vox. It was my opinion so I am not sure what you are arguing against. Are you claiming it's not my opinion or trying to marginalize it? Non-gaming pieces normally present both aspects either as a statement or a chronology. If you read the opinion piece through an objective lens, it refutes nothing about GamerGate and provides different aspects of it. Article titles are notoriously bad to use or cite as they are generally written by someone other than the author if the piece. It's the reason an AP story can have the same article but multiple headlines depending on what the local editors want to say. Headlines should never be used. The fact my statement has brought the dispute here is exactly why it's a problem at the article. I've not added any content to the article precisely because it's too toxic and too engulfed in the politics of the editors and players. --DHeyward (talk) 18:18, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Also, take a look at the NYT piece you cite which is an article about threats. Read the article until you get past just the threats to where they describe GamerGate The instigators of the (harassment) campaign are allied with a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage. The more extreme threats, though, seem to be the work of a much smaller faction and aimed at women. And that's from the NYT. They never make the claim that Gamergate is defined by the harassment. We SYNTH that they do, just as you did. Just review the NYT piece for where they mention GG and what they say. --DHeyward (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Full protection of GamerGate[edit]

If you didn't notice it Jimbo, the Gamergate controversy has been fully protected for 7 days by User:Gamaliel (which I actually don't disagree much but is kind of iffy) and then User:Nyttend then extended this for 5 months. Literally, 5 months of full protection. Because of edit warring. This is unprecedented and is in bad form and should be reverted back to the 7 days or unprotected all together. Nyttend's response to this is located here, basically saying that every time the page is protected, there's problem editing. Yeah, that justifies it. Tutelary (talk) 18:10, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Unprecedented? Please look at the protection log; I only restored what was already there. It could also be protected for rampant misuse of primary sources — secondary sources can't yet exist, since the controversy is ongoing, so sources produced after the event won't be able to exist until months or years in the future from now. Nyttend (talk) 18:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, this is unprecedented. I have never seen a page fully protected for this long just because it has 'editing problems'. Guess what. Editing problems are supposed to be dealt with on the talk page and via editing to hopefully have a compromise for certain things. That works. Looking at the logs, there is not a single entry there that details full protection of April 2015 of editing (there was a few for moving), but not for editing. That's simply too long of a time and the reasoning for it is just weak. Pages are supposed to be improved, not stagnated because of obvious problems. Sorry for any editing conflicts relating to this addendum, but even if there was another administrator that protected for that long, I think that they would've made a big mistake too and still be in bad form. Just because another administrator does it doesn't suddenly make it alright. Each situation has its own special circumstances> Tutelary (talk) 18:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I partly agree and partly disagree that editing problems should be dealt with on the talk page. In the case of this article, editing problems should be dealt with by using the community general sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:58, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
The only time the article was full-protected for longer than a few weeks was an instance when Cuchullain protected the page until September 2015, but then immediately shortened it to a week. Semi-protection has been imposed a few times with an expiration date in April 2015, but never full-protection.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 03:23, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
I have a question. What are those who are complaining about the very long full protection of the article asking User:Jimbo Wales or the WMF to do? Are they just using this talk page to vent, or are they asking Jimbo or the WMF to do something? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:56, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

What Can Be Done?[edit]

I have a suggestion for what Jimbo Wales can do. He can state that, without having studied the details of the page, extended full page protection for a period of months is undesirable, and is in general contrary to the policy that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and, in particular, that when community general sanctions or ArbCom discretionary sanctions have already been authorized, the use of sanctions is normally a less drastic and more appropriate response to disruptive editing than page protection for months. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)


Congratulations with the bestowal of a honorary title "doctor honoris causa" at the university of Maastricht, the Netherlands. JoJan (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! I look forward to the visit!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:25, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
Congrats! Save the Norway ones for spring commencements ;). --DHeyward (talk) 03:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Facts not Opinions[edit]

Facts not Opinions cropped.jpg

I ran into this on Flickr, edited it and thought you might like to see it. It goes pretty well with WP:V, so it might find some general use on Wikipedia, but I could also see it being over-used.

It's located in your general neck of the woods at 99 Southwark, south and a bit east of Blackfriars Bridge, at the Kirkaldy Testing Museum. Just in case you want to get a better photo - make sure to snap the photo from the other side of the street to improve the angle. Enjoy. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

This is how independent editors will prevail about partial wikipedia administrators[edit] — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:22, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Christina Hoff Sommers' Wikipedia Page[edit]

She doesn't seem to be too happy about it. per this. --DSA510 Pls No H8 00:50, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

There's been a report made at WP:BLPN, the article was locked after a sentence or two were removed. It's not my area, but after a quick reading, nothing jumps out at me. Perhaps there are some subtlties that I don't understand, but I don't see a crisis now. Smallbones(smalltalk) 01:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
  • She's a prominent MRA author, I'm fairly familiar with her work. Looking at her article I don't really see anything that sticks out as unfair, majorly misrepresented, or a major omission. Kevin Gorman (talk) 01:49, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
I'll dig it up later if need be. It's on my bookshelf of MR related books, and I don't particularly remember who the author of it was, but distinctly remember someone writing in an academic press describing her as a men's rights authow, and arguing that that's different than an MRA would be silly semantics. She self identifies as a pro-equity feminist. More sources will qualify her as an antifeminist than an MRA. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:45, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
  • That one source likens her arguments to those made by men's rights theorists, which is far from enough. Labeling her an MRA is potentially a BLP offense given that some view MRAs as ebil women-hating sociopaths (I presume Sommers would thus have what those people call internalized misogyny).--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 21:22, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
The only page describing her as an MRA is that page on ED which mentions her. Now I don't know about you, but sourcing ED isn't the best way to uphold WP:BLP. --DSA510 Pls No H8 21:15, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
If you only use freely available online sources to write an encyclopedia, you're doing it wrong. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:45, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
I removed one further sentence (which actually appeared twice!) that appeared to be poorly sourced for a claim that she'd probably take issue with, and given that a couple of people before me on the talk page had apparently thought the sentence should go. I'm not willing to do anything more in the absence of consensus on the talk page - unless, perhaps, Dr. Sommers lets us know exactly what issues she has. At the moment, the article seems reasonably balanced and objective. She's a prominent and very controversial figure, so it's a potentially sensitive article. Metamagician3000 (talk) 02:14, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for removing that sentence. I do think that the article has other problems; there is more material that is sourced in a questionable way (there has been talk page discussion of this) or is simply confusing. ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:48, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
The overall negative "anti-feminist" tone is a problem for one. She coined the term "equity feminist" which is associated with "libertarian feminists." After GG, editors have made her biography largely negative. That editors would actually argue she is not a feminist or even "feminist scholar" is simply ludicrous. Her next video will be interesting. --DHeyward (talk) 03:52, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
There is nothing necessarily "negative" about not identifying someone as a feminist. I thought the article was if not perfect then at least reasonably balanced before you started editing it. As for Sommers's next video, it remains to be seen will even mention her Wikipedia article. ImprovingWiki (talk) 03:55, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Characterizing her as "anti-feminist" in that same line is though. It's not neutral. It's negative in tone. I doubt anyone that identifies as a defender of women's rights and democrat would appreciate the tone and style of the current article, nor agree with it's characterizations. Everything positive is rebutted and a lot of the negative is opinion. --DHeyward (talk) 04:11, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
Please reread NPOV. If someone has been widely described as anti-feminist (and Sommers certainly has been,) then it is not non-neutral to describe her as such. We use NPOV, not SPOV. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:53, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
It's irrelevant whether or not any individual "appreciates" a WP article about them; this isn't People magazine. WP articles are not intended to be promo puff pieces. If the CSH article is well-sourced and not violating BLP policy, it's fine. It's also irrelevant which political party she claims membership in; anyone in the U.S. is free to join any political party they wish regardless of how many, or which, of that party's standard platform planks they agree with. ReynTime (talk) 00:57, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
But she is not "anti-feminist" or an "MRA". Both are slurs that don't represent the majority opinion of her work. She's definitely a feminist scholar and her work has been cited by quite a few (> 700) other scholarly works. That people disagree with her is not a reason to label her as the opposite of what she is. --DHeyward (talk) 01:21, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
There's nothing currently on her page calling her an MRA and the anti-feminist charge is properly sourced, so I don't see the issue. Again, this isn't People magazine -- WP doesn't allow public figures to define themselves here which is why there's a constant battle to keep politicians from having their PR folks edit their WP articles. While CSH's views on her body of work and her personal definitions are entitled to due representation, she is not entitled to have those views be her sole representation here. You need better arguments than "She doesn't call herself that!" and "A Democrat can't be antifeminist!" if you're going to make your case that she is being misrepresented.ReynTime (talk) 04:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Nice straw argument but it's not about anything you just created. She is certainly critical of certain avenues of feminism that exist predominantly in academia, but doesn't rise to "anti-feminism." It's certainly not a mainstream view and most likely a fringe view. In any case, it's not even close to her identity with equity feminism, which is a term and concept she coined and has been joined by a number of feminists. The opening paragraph is pathetic in its attempt to portray "anti-feminism" yet not even acknowledge she is a feminist scholar. Her work that defined equity feminist for others to follow and expand is cited over 700 times according to google scholar. Our article on equity feminist is more balanced than the bio of its creator. The recent attack is straight from gamergate which is why it's personal rather than intellectual. --DHeyward (talk) 05:51, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
The anti-feminist label is sourced. If CHS objects to the label she should write to the sources and see if she can get them to retract it. If an RS says a certain author is anti-feminist, then WP can report that. It's not the job of WP editors to decide which criticisms from reliable sources are justified and which aren't, as WP editors don't have the background to make that determination. This is why WP relies on reliable sources and not on the opinions of editors. Wp doesn't "correct" reliable sources just because an editor -- or a subject -- doesn't like what that source said. ReynTime (talk) 06:05, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
You should probably not edit biographies if you believe a source is all that is needed to make an opening sentence, negative claim about someone. Yes it is our job to separate the wheat from the chaff and not pretend it's someone else's problem. There are plenty of sources that claim President Obama was born in Kenya but we don't list them in his opening sentence. Please read the policies that say why we don't do this. --DHeyward (talk) 06:41, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
There is a reason WP has a policy on what does and does not constitute a reliable source, which is why isn't sourceable. Reliable sources make an effort to back up their claims, do not knowingly print falsehoods, and publish retractions when they are caught in an error. No reliable sources claim, nor have ever claimed, that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. Please review the definition of reliable source so that you can differentiate between a reliable source and one that is not reliable. I think it will relieve your concerns that WP might accidentally state that Obama was born in Kenya. If you wish to contend that the sources that say CHS are anti-feminist are in error or not reliable, that argument should be made on the talk page of that article. I'm not sure why you are pursuing it here. ReynTime (talk) 06:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
The reliable sources are 2 book authors that disagree with her. 700+ scholarly articles cite her. Our article list a number of prominent (i.e. have their own wiki bio like Wendy McNichols). There are many reliable sources that say many things that don't necessarily warrant having that viewpoint in the lead. There is no doubt that she is a feminist scholar and there is no doubt that calling her "anti-feminist" is polemic and self-serving. It's not a mainstream view. This is how biographies become hit pieces. There are plenty of polemic rants about Gloria Steinem that don't belong in her bio and certainly not in the lead. The same understanding is applied to CHS. You don't seem to understand WP:UNDUE. It's fundamental to BLPs. --DHeyward (talk) 16:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Meh. It takes about 3 seconds to find reliable sources describing Hoff Sommers as "anti-feminist". Here is a news piece from the Washington Post which describes her as an "anti-feminist provocateur", for instance. So it's not "two book authors that disagree with her", right? I think the discussion would probably benefit from less chest-beating and more attention to sources. MastCell Talk 17:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Curiously enough, "opinion blogs" ("Alyssa Rosenberg blogs about pop culture for The Washington Post's Opinions section.")are generally about "opinions" and are not sources for statements of fact. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:49, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
There does seem to have been some attempt to make the page more negative in recent times, but I could be wrong about that. If it's the case, it's probably not easy to fix. I gather from a tweet I saw that Dr. Sommers objects (at least in part) to earlier removal of material that she considered positive and accurate. I don't want to get closely involved in the debate over this particular page, but I hope she'll somehow offer more information about exactly what changes she sees as problematic. Metamagician3000 (talk) 07:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Need to improve the article of Macedonia naming dispute[edit]

We Need to improve the article of Macedonia naming dispute: The inherent right of a state to have a name can be derived from the necessity that a juridical personality must have a legal identity. In absence of such an identity, the juridical person, such as a state, could to a large extent (or even completely) loose its capacity to interact with other such juridical persons (e.g. conclude agreements, etc.) and independently enter into and conduct its external relations. The name of a state is, thus, an essential element of its juridical personality and, consequently, of its statehood. The principles of sovereign equality of states and the inviolability of their juridical personality , lead to the conclusion that the choice by a state of its own name is a basic, inherent right of the state. This right is not alienable, divisible or transferable, and is a part of the right to 'self-determination' (determination of one's own legal identity), i.e. it belongs to the domain of jus cogens norms. External interference with this basic right is inadmissible. It is also obvious that if such an external interference with the choice of the name of a state would be allowed, even through a negotiation process, it might easily become a legally endorsed mechanism for interference in the internal and external affairs of that state, i.e. a mechanism for degradation of its political independence. From these reasons, the choice by the state of its own name must be considered as an inherent right of the state that belongs stricto sensu to the domain of its domestic jurisdiction. In exercising this right, the states have, therefore, a complete legal freedom. This freedom may in practice be constrained only by considerations of avoidance the overlap of legal identities of two (or more) international juridical persons. (The province 'Macedonia' in Greece, however, is not an international juridical person.) Based on the principle of separability of domestic and international jurisdiction, the name of a state, which is subject of that state's domestic jurisdiction, does not create international legal rights for that state, nor does it impose legal obligations on other states. Clearly, the name per se does not have a direct impact on the territorial rights of states. Therefore, the earlier mentioned Greek allegation that the name of the applicant implies "territorial claims" has no legal significance. The Arbitration Commission of European Communities on former Yugoslavia also took this position and did not link the name of the country (Republic of Macedonia) to the Greek territorial rights. The same view is shared by prominent scholars of international law. Interference with matters that are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of a state, such as the choice of state's name, is also incompatible with the UN Charter. Article 2 (7) of the Charter explicitly extends the validity of this legal norm to the United Nations themselves. It appears, therefore, that neither the Greek opposition to the admission of Macedonia to UN membership under its constitutional name, nor the intervention of the UN Security Council in the matters related to the name of the country, are consistent with the Charter. According to the interpretation of Article 4(1) of the Charter given in 1948 and accepted by the General Assembly, the conditions laid down in that article are exhaustive (and "not merely stated by way of guidance or example" ), they must be fulfilled before admission is effected, and, once they are recognized as having been fulfilled by the Security Council, the applicant state acquires an unconditional right to UN membership. This right is enshrined in Article 4 itself and comports with the universal character of the UN Organization. At the same time, and for the same reasons, the Organization has a duty to unconditionally admit such a state to UN membership. The Security Council in the preamble of its resolution recognizes that the applicant state fulfils the required criteria for admission and yet, contrary to the accepted interpretation of Article 4(1) of the Charter, recommends that the applicant be admitted to membership with a temporary reference label (to be used for all purposes within the UN), and imposes an obligation on the future UN member to negotiate with a neighboring state about its own name. The fact that Security Council has ignored the strong objection of Macedonian Government to such formulation of its resolution indicates that it considered the added conditions as necessary for giving the recommendation. A specific feature of the additional conditions imposed on Macedonia for its admission to UN membership is that their effect begins with the act of admission. Their nature is quite different than that of the conditions laid down in Article 4(1) of the Charter: they need to be fulfilled not before the admission, but after it. These additional conditions transcend their cause; their nature is obviously not legal, but rather political. According to the ICJ advisory opinion of 1948, no "political considerations" can be superimposed on, or added to, the conditions set forth in Article 4(1) that could prevent admission to membership. The broad nature of the prescribed admission criteria already provides space for appreciation of all political factors relevant for the judgement on the fulfillment of these criteria. With its imposed provisional name (for use within the UN), i. e. with its derogated legal personality, and its obligation to negotiate with a neighboring country over its name, Macedonia has a legal status within UN which is obviously different from that of other member-states. Membership to the UN Organization, as a legal status, contains a standard set of rights and duties that are equal for all members of the Organization ("sovereign equality of the Members" ). The admission of Macedonia to UN membership with additional, non-standard conditions (that impose on the member certain membership obligations) may be interpreted as "conditional admission", and, consequently, the resulting membership status as 'conditional'. The Charter, however, does not provide for conditional membership in the Organization. Suppose that Macedonia decides at one point in time not to comply anymore with its membership obligation to negotiate with Greece over its name. What could be the possible UN sanctions for such non-compliance? Expulsion from UN membership would only prove that its present membership status is conditional. Other forms of sanctions would also indicate, in less evident way, the conditional character of the membership status. Obstruction of the "settlement of the difference" over the name during the negotiating process may be another form of non-compliance with the membership obligation. Such obstruction in the negotiating process may be, however, introduced also by the other negotiating party (from political, economic or other reasons). The fulfillment of the imposed admission obligation may, therefore, depend not only on the good will of the party carrying the obligation, but also on a factor outside of its control. In fulfilling its membership obligations, Macedonia is, thus, not independent, which is another difference of its membership status with respect to the other UN member-states. There is still another important feature of the legal status of Macedonia as a UN member. By imposing the additional condition for admission of using a provisional name for the state within the UN, the legal personality of the future member-state has been heavily derogated by the very act of admission. The derogated legal personality of Macedonia in the United Nations system is most clearly manifested in the area of representation. In all acts of representation within the UN system, and in the field of UN relations with other international subjects, the provisional, and not the constitutional, name of Macedonia is to be used. (talk) 13:15, 24 November 2014 (UTC) Too long, difficult to read - Can this be summarized? Can this be discussed on the article talk page, or is this a request for Jimbo or the WMF? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I Can try to summarize. The presented detailed analysis of the legal aspects of SC Res. 817 (1993) and GA Res. 47/225 (1993), related to the admission of Macedonia to UN membership, and the legal effects of these resolutions on the membership status of Macedonia in the UN lead to the conclusion that these resolutions are in clear violation of the UN Charter. The imposed additional conditions for Macedonia’s admission to the UN directly violate Article 4(1) and are contradictory to the accepted interpretation of this article as a legal norm. The denial of a sovereign state’s right to free choice of its own legal identity (name) by these resolutions, and imposing an admission and membership condition on that state to negotiate over its own name with another state, violates Articles 2(1) and 2(7) of the Charter. The imposed admission and membership conditions on Macedonia define a discriminatory legal status of this state as a UN member, again in violation of Article 2(1). The legal responsibility of the United Nations for violation of the Charter’s provisions derives from the UN’s duty to respect the basic rights of states (either as applicants or UN members), which are protected by the principles of international law enshrined in the mentioned articles of the Charter. The character of these violations is of ultra vires type with respect to the legal norms of the Charter as a multilateral treaty. The violations of Articles 4(1), 2(1) and 2(7) involve the legal personalities of both the UN and Macedonia. This provides a basis for instituting judicial redress, based on the use of the advisory jurisdiction of ICJ, of the legal consequences resulting from the breach of constitutional provisions. The violation of Article 4(1) (imposition of additional admission conditions) has an obvious character in view of the explicit and extremely clear Court’s interpretation of Article 4(1) in 1948, and its acceptance and legal implementation by the General Assembly the same year. (In fact, from a legal point of view, the case of irregular admission of Macedonia to the UN is only a particular case of the most general and already resolved ICJ Admission case, and resolution by legal means should be regarded as the most logical and straightforward option. The exit strategy should be a Resolution, passed by the UN General Assembly, to replace the reference "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" with the constitutional name - the Republic of Macedonia. An alternative would be to request an Advisory opinion from the International Court of Justice for the imposition of additional conditions on Macedonia before its UN membership. Once this is done, the General Assembly should replace the illegal reference "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" used now with the constitutional name - the Republic of Macedonia.) (talk) 16:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)


HI! A random (or coincidental, or not at all) hello from t 1234567890Number c

You got a barnstar![edit]

Commons-barnstarW.png Wikimedia Commons Barnstar
Founder Award! t 1234567890Number c 16:44, 24 November 2014 (UTC)