User talk:JohnSRoberts99/Archive 1

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This is your Talk page where you can receive messages from other Wikipedians and discuss things with them. At the end of your messages you must put your signature by signing with four ~~~~ or by pressing the button in the editor bar as shown here in the picture. By the way, you don't need to sign edits that you make in the articles themselves as those messages will be deleted. My name is Buster7 and I am a Wiki Guide. If you have any questions or face any initial hurdles, feel free to contact me on my talk page and I will do what I can to assist. Good Luck editing! Buster Seven Talk 14:51, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

THT

To address the question you pose in a recent edit summary: Wikipedia aims preferrentially cite encyclopedias, books, and reviews, not patents and not journal articles. The guideline is WP:SECONDARY. It is impossible to cover primary literature such as patents (which are usually quite useless sources of information except to specialists who can parse the legal jargon. People tend to cite journal articles because they do not have access to or are not aware of secondary sources.--Smokefoot (talk) 12:09, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Dont go

I saw that you blanked your page. Frustrated I suppose, understandably! ChemBoxes turned into some some sort of strange obsessive-compulsive venue that I learned to avoid a long time ago. There is one administrator who periodically monitors that ward, upon request: user:Beetstra.

Just stick to chemistry - you're really good at it. And we hardly have anyone at your skill level with respect to writing, knowledge, and a sense of humor. The nut-cases do not know enough chemistry to bother people like you and me very often. So I hope you reconsider. We have a lot of stuff to do. So have a beer, and reconsider --Smokefoot (talk) 02:28, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I probably will but the nomenclature issue needs to be dealt with sooner or later. I will let someone else deal with it. JSR (talk) 11:25, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Fluoride

Re: [1]. My copy of Greenwood has a section "Fluorides" (Ch. 17, p. 820) that covers both organic and inorganic ones. Materialscientist (talk) 06:31, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Look at page 791 and 821. I've been an organofluorine chemist or an organic fluorine chemist or a fluorocarbon chemist, but I've never been an organic fluoride chemist. (I've been an inorganic fluoride chemist though).JSR (talk) 06:48, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
But that sentence used "organofluorine". Also, how about polyvinylidene fluoride, carbonyl fluoride, polyvinyl fluoride, vinyl fluoride, etc? Materialscientist (talk) 07:15, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
COF2 is inorganic. The fluoride hydrolyzes off readily, whereas with most organofluorine compounds, it takes a lot more work to get that to happen (pyridine and sodium metal work really well to remove fluorides from organofluorine compounds). The others are exceptions. IUPAC does not use fluoride for naming organics.JSR (talk) 07:29, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
JSR: the fluorine business has a lot of history here, and we have never had an expert with much first hand experience, especially in the area of inorganic fluorine compounds. So I encourage you make improvements as you see fit.
We had a zealous nonchemist here at one time (user:Shootbamboo) who pushed all sorts of nomenclature that would be strange to chemists. His cause du jour was the widespread occurrence of perfluorinated surfactants such as PFOS, and he was initially convinced that most chemically fluent editors, me especially, were on the dark side, environmentally. His tracks are still evident here as you can see if you look up any class of fluorocarbon. Those articles (and titles) should probably be reworked now that the heat is off. He loved the noun(!) organofluorine, which I have never heard from a chemist.
One theme to be avoided (or not, depending on your disposition) is the definition game of organic vs inorganic - and many related definitions. Semantic themes attract all sorts of editors who dont know enough chemistry to add real content but love to argue.--Smokefoot (talk) 19:40, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
The organic vs inorganic game is always based on whether the compound acts like it's organic or an inorganic compound. If I can hydrolyze the fluoride with little difficulty, then it's inorganic.JSR (talk) 19:46, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
Well good luck with that one. http://orgsyn.org/orgsyn/default.asp?formgroup=basenpe_form_group&dataaction=db&dbname=orgsyn. --Smokefoot (talk) 20:48, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

The Medicine Article

Putting the words Pharmacia and Pharmakea in the medicine article only serves our cause by pushing more relevant information to the top of the search engine when people do a search for Pharmacia or Pharmakea pushing biblical references lower in rank. 2602:306:C518:62C0:1E75:8FF:FEBB:2125 (talk) 16:17, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

What cause?JSR (talk) 16:24, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

You were concerned as I was of the negative connotations toward medicine on the internet when doing a search for the Greek word for medicine Pharmakea. 2602:306:C518:62C0:1E75:8FF:FEBB:2125 (talk) 16:30, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I am beginning to see that salvation comes through YESHUWA not pharmaceuticals. Sorry I am not going to join this conspiracy of yours. Did you know that pharmaceuticals are derived from petrochemicals? Did you know that crude oil is the ancient poop of ancient animals? Do you have a church you can recommend I attend? Maybe you would know since since you are so antiChristian. Please don't take that wrong. You were against the word because you were afraid people would see the Biblical viewpoint of medicine. I am a Christian but I never knew the Greek word for pharmaceutical was in the Bible. It says in Revelation that those practicing pharmakea will be cast in the lake of fire and tormented forever and that a figure called the Whore of Babylon is deceiving the nations with pharmakea. I appreciate you pointing me in the right direction albeit not intentional. If not for you I would have never knew these things. Also crude oil is what lubricates the planet. Bringing that stuff up is causing big earthquakes. 2602:306:C518:62C0:1E75:8FF:FEBB:2125 (talk) 18:33, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

You are welcome. I guess I have a better understanding of your cause now.JSR (talk) 18:38, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

If you are interested, now is a suitable time to contribute to this Wikipedia:ANI#Chembox_edits_by_User:Plasmic_Physics. --Smokefoot (talk) 22:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I noted that it was being resolved, I threw in my 2 cents about the changes to the odor in ChemBoxes, which I don't think was noted by anyone and decided not to pile on. I think his heart is in the right place, but he doesn't have enough background to be anything but dangerous.JSR (talk) 22:42, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Atomic mass

Hi. I saw that you reverted my edit in mass number. Here is my rationale for making that edit:

  • It is the first time in that article that the mass number is said not to be confused with another concept, therefore the word "also" is redundant.
  • The paragraph explains what relative atomic mass (a.k.a atomic weight) is, and why it shouldn't be confused with mass number. The section heading, however, currently refers to atomic mass which is a different concept, and is also not to be confused with relative atomic mass. It doesn't matter which one of these two concepts are compared to the mass number, but the section heading should be consistent with the section contents.

--Farzaneh (talk) 22:33, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Fishy

Tools exist for replacing one word with another. If the mood strikes, you might consider replacing the ridiculous term "ichthyal" with fishy across many articles. It has also occurred to both of us probably that we need some sort of systematic way of correcting the damage done to many pages by Plasmic person. The obvious problems are the names, but there may be subtler defects that require correction. For example, the "related compounds" lists are often too long or point to barely relevant compounds. Ideally one could setting up a mini database on his edits to monitor the progress on undoing the problems. To his credit, he might have been consistently unwise and fetishist, but he may have done good things as well with regards to other aspects of the ChemBox that I dont check.--Smokefoot (talk) 14:08, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

I can usually find the ones where he made changes by looking at names and not seeing IUPAC names (or any names for that matter) or finding citation needed tags. I've been changing things on a piecemeal basis when I run into them. As far as tools that run across many pages, the only thing that worries me about that is can we control them enough to make sure they don't change "icthyal" to fishy someplace where it might actually be required? (As far as odor goes, he was on a kick for a while to give essential oil odors to the higher alkanes, as they were on the analysis list of one of the essential oil companies. I think I got most of those.)
Also, he changed all of the densities to "mg/mL", which may be OK, or we may want to change. I've never seen any text quoting densities in those units, but at least you get the same numbers as you would in kg/m3. Have you looked at the number of edits he has made? There are 100's of them, where he puts in one compound at a time across 40-50 different compound groups. I'm not sure that databasing it will be that easy. I do think we can start doing some editing on related compound listing when we get a chance. I've just decided to do a couple a day and see what happens. Cheers.JSR (talk) 14:23, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Oops, misspoke. I searched icthyal not ichthyal. There are a bunch of the latter.JSR (talk) 15:35, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Further on spelling

I wondered about Parliment vs Parliament for the man's name but I messed up.

Sorry

EoGuy (talk) 14:59, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Food sources of phosphorus

Hello! You believe that information about phosphorus in chocolate is unnecessary in the article Phosphorus. But other articles about nutrients often contain many, sometimes dozens, examples of food sources (look, for example, at Calcium#Nutrition). It is naturally that one reading an article about a nutrient may want to find out which kinds of food contain it. It seems to me that it would be quite interesting after the information about phosphorus in calcium-rich foods to read about an example (chocolate) of food being not calcium-rich, but phosphorus-rich. Now there are only three certain examples there. Maybe, you would agree that 4 examples is not too many yet? --D.M. from Ukraine (talk) 19:23, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

If you want to add information about phosphorus rich foods that is one thing. If you want to add information about only one phosphorus rich food, that is another. Add a section about phosphorus rich foods and I am sure it will be well received.JSR (talk) 19:26, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
It is unnecessary to add a section because the section "Food sources" should be just a section about phosphorus rich foods (maybe, someone will add there also information about foods with little phosphorus, but the main information of the section should be about foods with much phosphorus). Now this is a stub-section. I cannot expand it essentially because I don't know much information on this topic. But I can add just one food expanding this section only a little. Do you consider it is unnecessary to expand stubs a little bit? As for me, such kind of expansion contributes essentially to the development of Wikipedia. --D.M. from Ukraine (talk) 14:38, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
If you really don't know about the topic, you are perhaps not in a position to assess the value of the information you wish to put in place. Do a little research and share it with us. Cheers.JSR (talk) 14:57, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Probably, in this case it is not difficult to conclude that every additional example of a phosphorus rich food is of sufficient value to be add to the section. One doesn't need any deep knowledge about phosphorus to make this conclusion. Every additional example is useful at least for those who simply look for examples. If you nevertheless consider that the value of the example "chocolate" is insufficient then, please, explain me why. --D.M. from Ukraine (talk) 13:50, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Ethanedithiol prep

I saw your note on the industrial prep of this dithiol from NaSH and ethylenedichloride. I expected that this reaction led to excessive thioether formation but maybe there are tricks that avoid this problem. In fact, I teach students that thiols usually cannot be made well from NaSH for this reason. Comments? --Smokefoot (talk) 13:53, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

It is made that way commercially. In general, you use excess NaSH and H2S. Yields are 90+%. Just takes some tweaking. If you don't use excess NaSH/H2S, you end up with a mess. CPChem is currently producing this material with this route.JSR (talk) 13:56, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I always figured that there was a way to do this with tweaking the stoichiometry, so nice to hear. On a related note, do you know of any commercial applications aside from selling it to researchers? Ditto for the two propanedithiols. You might review the prep section in Thiol, since I wrote that relying on academic perspective leavened by Ullmann's.--Smokefoot (talk) 14:33, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Harvade, a cotton defoliant, is the biggest application for the ethanedithiol. Never could get anyone to bite on the propanedithiols, but not for lack of trying. I have not been told about any other applications in the last 10-15 years, so I assume this is true.JSR (talk) 14:38, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Don't mean to intrude but this is an interesting discussion. John, do you have a ref for the commercial prep? --Rifleman 82 (talk) 14:57, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the easiest one to find is the 1997 Kirk-Othmer article on thiols, but I get into trouble quoting that one. I may need to dig into the patent literature to find that one.JSR (talk) 15:14, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Well I cite my own work occasionally for reviews and a text. --Smokefoot (talk) 19:05, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Vulcanization

Maybe you know something about the vulcanization of rubber using sulfur? It is almost impossible to find a chemical equation for what happens in that process. Our current image ([[File:Vulcanization of POLYIsoprene V.2.png]]) was contributed by an experienced organic chemist, but he admitted that he was unsure. I was going to upgrade (remove C2S4 ring) using this reaction that begins with activation of an allylic CH and then addition of SH across another double bond:

2RCH=CH-CH2- + Sx → RCH=CH-CH-Sx-C(R)H-CH2-CH2-

But maybe you have better sources. I have been itching to get a decent image.--Smokefoot (talk) 19:05, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

The problem with vulcanization is that it is mostly sulfur + double bonds + heat and you end up getting sulfides, disulfides, and polysulfides. I don't think there is a single real reaction going on, which makes drawing structures pretty speculative. It's probably a fairly reasonable representation, but that's all it can really be. Check out http://books.google.com/books?id=J_AkNu-Y1wQC&pg=PA216&lpg=PA216&dq=sulfurized+olefins&source=bl&ots=j0CvbRIZfr&sig=Mvpa5HJRNnkgjz5FNieGeUwtpX0&hl=en#v=onepage&q=sulfurized%20olefins&f=false. That is similar in concept.JSR (talk) 19:23, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Vinyl amine?

You might recheck, vinyl amine is unknown. Would be like vinyl alcohol. Also my guess is that cysteamine has hydrogen-bonds from SH to N but is probably not ionized. Someone must have done the structure, but it is not in Cambridge Database. --Smokefoot (talk) 17:11, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

True enough. I am remembering having made this monstrosity directly, but now I am going to have to chase down the route. I removed it.JSR (talk) 17:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Monty Hall problem RFC

Hi! Over at Talk:Monty Hall problem#Conditional or Simple solutions for the Monty Hall problem? I assigned Abstain to your comments. If this is incorrect, please indicate "Proposal #1", "Proposal #2", or "Neither". Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 20:43, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Concerning the pyrolysis category =

Hi John ! I am for sure against spam in WP, and altought I am not the creator of this company's page, it seems that it has been for a while in WP and has not been challenged so far. I believe they have brought some innovation to the field, if you believe they don't deserve to be in WP go ahead and propose theme for deletion I have no problem for it.--Khalid hassani (talk) 15:49, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Interest in sulfur compounds: Dietary Sulfur

Hi. Do you know of any sources/databases detailing the sulfur content of foods? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.140.19 (talk) 12:31, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The FDA is the most likely place. They have databases on essential elements, but I am not sure if sulfur is included or not.JSR (talk) 12:34, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Sulfasalazine removed content

Sulfasalazine DOES NOT inhibits dihydrofolate reductase, and DOES NOT cause folate deficiency and megaloblastic anemia, this is a common mistake!

Ahmad Al-Tamimi, M.B.B.S. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.236.233.3 (talk) 01:19, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

In general, if you are removing content from an article, it is a good idea to let people know why you are doing it. The edit summary is a good place to do this. Else, people will revert your changes.JSR (talk) 01:29, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

How to Contact

Do I understand rightly? You post on my talk page and I post on your talk page? A rather disconnected conversation...

SODIUM NITRITE The whole paragraph has no references. "uses in photography" (vague), "electrolyte", "diluted", etc. including the last sentence about "closed loop cooling systems." Should all of that be undone?

If I say "as an anti-corrosion additive to industrial greases" then a user would have to search for "industrial grease additive" and may have a difficult time finding info on Sodium Nitrite. If they search the DuPont grease they will have an direct connection to something that I know to be a fact. It is not SPAM and I don't have any connection to DuPont, but I do like examples that allow an encyclopedia to be helpful in my search for knowledge.

Perhaps you can tell me how to reference a source which is a webinar produced by DuPont, not guaranteed to remain posted on the web forever or even more than a few months? Should I post a ref to a DuPont data sheet? Babahu (talk) 02:26, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, if you are set up correctly, I can post here, and you will see a note indicating a change on this page. Or, I can put an announcement, to be polite, that there is a message here, on my talk page. The difficulty with a lot of web content is that it ends up being [WP:SPAM]. Webinars are not the best sources, as almost anyone can say anything. For sources read WP:VERIFY and WP:PRIMARY.
If you want to reference the use of nitrites, find a secondary source that says it. An encyclopedia, such as Ullmans or Kirk-Othmer, a review article, a text book or book will work.JSR (talk) 09:37, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Please address this issue: The whole paragraph in question has no references. "uses in photography" (vague), "electrolyte", "diluted", etc. including the last sentence about "closed loop cooling systems." Should all of that be undone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Babahu (talkcontribs) 22:05, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

You would have to go back to the original and determine where they came from. That sounds like a task for you to undertake. To remove it you are going to have a reason. You can put in the [citation needed] template in to challenge those, if you so choose. Also, you need to use 4 '~'s in a row so that SineBot doesn't have to sign all your posts.JSR (talk) 23:11, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate all your help. Thanks for fixing my refs. The DuPont ref that talked about the sodium nitrate directly was a pdf and I did not know how to ref to that.

The lack of refs I mention has to do with the fact that you removed my addition for lack of a reference and yet I saw no references for the preceding items in that paragraph. I trust the info and I myself don't need refs on those things, but I do want to know when refs are really needed and when not. "Verifiable" can mean you can verify it, but not necessarily that you have to do so in the entry itself or give refs. So I am just learning. Appreciate any opinions on the above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Babahu (talkcontribs) 23:46, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I understood your comments, but the problem is that there may have been a reference and it was lost in the shuffle or the original article was out of Ullman's. Typically, I won't remove something or question it, unless it seems really weird or completely off the wall. You can always put in the [citation needed] template and request a reference. Also, you need to sign your posts. 4~'s is the usual method.JSR (talk) 23:50, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Just a thank you

I wanted to thank you for your assistance the other day over on wikiproject chemicals! Gzuufy (talk) 04:04, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Dolomite "In Popular Culture": "not particularly useful" (to some) = merits removal (for all)?

By that logic, none of the zillions of "In Popular Culture" sections on Wikipedia pages are "particularly useful", so should they all be deleted too? The "In Popular Culture" dimension of Wikipedia must be particularly useful to at least those with an appreciative curiosity (like me) and those specifically researching references to [X] in popular culture, so therefore you believe Wikipedia should explicitly avoid serving such people? I won't start an edit-war over it, I just wish you would reconsider proactive opposition to "In Popular Culture". Acting against any dimension of Wikipedia seems to me is acting against Wikipedia itself. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.224.118 (talk) 16:06, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Your request for rollback

Wikipedia Rollbacker.svg

Hi JohnSRoberts99. After reviewing your request for rollback, I have enabled rollback on your account. Keep in mind these things when going to use rollback:

  • Getting rollback is no more momentous than installing Twinkle.
  • Rollback should be used to revert clear cases of vandalism only, and not good faith edits.
  • Rollback should never be used to edit war.
  • If abused, rollback rights can be revoked.
  • Use common sense.

If you no longer want rollback, contact me and I'll remove it. Also, for some more information on how to use rollback, see Wikipedia:New admin school/Rollback (even though you're not an admin). I'm sure you'll do great with rollback, but feel free to leave me a message on my talk page if you run into troubles or have any questions about appropriate/inappropriate use of rollback. Thank you for helping to reduce vandalism. Happy editing! Yunshui  14:04, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Glycine

Ext Ref is not a spam but refers to the name of tone of the companies in parag thre: "In the USA (by GEO Specialty Chemicals, Inc.) and in Japan (by Shoadenko), glycine is produced via the Strecker amino acid synthesis.[8][9]" Savolya (talk) 15:42, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Naming it in the article and adding an external reference are two different things, but after looking at it, I would say that we definitely have spam. Reference 8 indicates that GEO and Shoadenko manufacture by the Strecker process. The GEO web site does not say that, therefore, it is not a reference. The addition of the web site to the external links is definitely spam. I will put a note on the talk page of glycine and let others put in their two cents.JSR (talk) 15:57, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

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Fuel gas

I've started a discussion at Talk:Fuel gas about changing Fuel gas from a disambiguation page back to an article. As you made the change earlier, your input would be appreciated. Thank you. SchreiberBike (talk) 22:59, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

MgOH

Dear John, About MgOH and CaOH: (I have PhD in Organic Chemistry as well.) I noticed there are many different values for solubility of Mg(OH)2, and if you use the numbers in wikipedia, i.e. Ksp and solubility in g/L, they do not come out right. I disagree with your statement, that Ca(OH)2 and Mg(OH)2 do not differ very much in solubility. Actually, they do. Quite much for all practical purposes. Ca(OH)2 is about 0.1% or so, and will maintain pH of 12.5, while Mg(OH)2 is 3-4 orderes of magnitude less, and will keep pH almost intact. This is very important if you need to conduct a pH sensitive reaction.

Regards,

Nick, 20121025 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.193.173.17 (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Flare (pyrotechnic)

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Please comment on Talk:BP

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Please comment on Talk:Dodge City, Kansas

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Please comment on Talk:Air France Flight 447

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Please comment on Talk:March Against Monsanto

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Please comment on Talk:List of F5 and EF5 tornadoes

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Please comment on Talk:List of Unix daemons

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Please comment on Talk:SkyDrive

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Please comment on Talk:Manned mission to Mars

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Please comment on Talk:Planetary protection

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Please comment on Talk:Grammarly

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Please comment on Talk:Observable universe

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Please comment on Talk:Mazda B-Series

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Please comment on Talk:North American Water and Power Alliance

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Please comment on Talk:Mars sample return mission

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Please comment on Talk:BP

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Please comment on Talk:Final Cut Pro

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Please comment on Talk:March Against Monsanto

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Please comment on Talk:Ashkenazi Jews

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Please comment on User:Brews ohare/ontological pluralism

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Please comment on Talk:Microsoft Minesweeper

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Please comment on Talk:Yuilop

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Please comment on Template talk:Infobox video game

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Please comment on Talk:Roundup (herbicide)

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Please comment on Talk:Conceptualization (information science)

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Please comment on Talk:Séralini affair

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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics

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Please comment on Talk:List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming

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Please comment on Talk:Pathology

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Please comment on Talk:Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula

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Please comment on Talk:List of common coordinate transformations

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Please comment on Talk:Debian

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Please comment on Talk:Water fluoridation controversy

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Please comment on Talk:Mensuration

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