User talk:John of Reading/Archive 12

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Archive 11 Archive 12 Archive 13

Thanks much

Thanks for your vandalism patrol help at Portal talk:Society. Much appreciated, — Cirt (talk) 03:38, 11 April 2013 (UTC)


Hi John, thanks and congratulations on doing those "a to an" typos when the following word is a wikilink, is that part of AWB now or somehow you did a custom for the wikilink following? I'm somewhat proud that the rule was used to fix many thousands of typos. Hope there was no false positives, or at least the false positive where due to an existing problem. Best Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 19:01, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

No, this isn't part of AWB; I found them with a database scan and used a small set of find and replace rules. But, major confession time: I didn't think to use your regex until after I'd done the scan! Here's what I ended up with:


  • Match even if there are various kinds of apostrophes or quotes in between the "a" and the wikilink
  • Skip when the A is part of "class A engine" or similar
  • Skip when the A is glued on to the end of a wikilink such as "Messerschmitt Bf 109a engine"
  • Skip when the A is part of a word such as "Shia'a"
  • Skip when the A is part of "a/k/a" or "U.S.A"
  • Skip when the wikilink begins with A$, AAA, EU*, EWE*, II, III, IV, IX, ONCE, ONES?, ONENESS, ONEWORLD or OUIJA
The other main rule was very similar, but dealing with piped links. I also had two rules for the easier case "A A Foo" where the correct fix is to drop an A rather than turn it into AN.
The false positive rate was very low, enough for me to consistently make four or five good edits a minute. Perhaps the more unusual words caught by your regex are too unusual to turn up in wikilinks often?
But so far I've spent three weeks making 6,700 edits clearing the backlog of easy cases. Your regex is on my "to do" list for when I next download a database dump. Next time there will be another three months of errors to fix, plus all those where the wikilink text starts with a "U", which I didn't attempt, plus the unusual cases you've identified where the wikilink begins with a consonant but sounds like a vowel, plus anything that I skipped manually which isn't skipped by your regex. We'll see. Your work will definitely not be wasted, and when I'm using your regex I will make a note of the remaining false positives. -- John of Reading (talk) 22:44, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
(Update) I have a new database dump and have begun a new list based on your regex. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:34, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Typo Team Barnstar

Barnstar Typo Team.png The Typo Team Barnstar
The shear number of John of Reading's edits speaks volumes. He tackles projects that require thousands of fixes. Few editors are capable of that and it shows you are a Typo Team member willing to go the extra mile to make sure that Wikipedia delivers high-quality content. For that, you've earned the Typo Team barnstar. Congratulations. Jason Quinn (talk) 15:54, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you! -- John of Reading (talk) 15:58, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

University of Banja Luka

I was all set to send you a big tut, tut but it turned out someone had edited one of the internal templates with references carry-out. John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Sun 15:51, wikitime= 07:51, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Why does a navigation box need references? -- John of Reading (talk) 10:53, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
Rhetorical question I assume. I dunno, but I see 2 or 3 a day, so I'm a bit wise to what goes on. BTW some editors don't check their results, but I didn't really think you were one. John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Sun 19:18, wikitime= 11:18, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Talkback: Template talk:ITN talk

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Hello, John of Reading. You have new messages at Template talk:ITN talk.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

-- tariqabjotu 17:02, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

another small query

I was under the very VERY strong impression that endash shouldn't occur in section names, and by extension, in page titles either. Yet today I see one editor who has had a bot change just about every hyphen to an endash. (As an aside, what we need is a non-breaking endash - like {{nbhyph}} but I don't think there is one.)

As far as I can see, there are two types of editors - those who mend things which are broken, which is what I do, occasionally stopping for extended fixing if it catches my fancy; and there are those who break things which are working. And in between there are people who are wasting their time, such as yesterday someone went through changing all multiple spaces to single space, which doesn't actually make a ha'porth of difference. Not until wiki decides to implement two spaces after a full stop!

John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Mon 19:16, wikitime= 11:16, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

MOS:DASH explains when ndashes should be used; that applies to article titles as well. Did the bot also create redirects from the title-with-hyphen to the title-with-ndash? That's the recommendation at MOS:DASH and at WP:TITLESPECIALCHARACTERS. MOS:HEAD says that the rules for naming articles apply also to headings, so there's no blanket restriction on ndashes in headings either. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:46, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

is it just me or ...?

Something strange is happening. If I bring up Bantayan Island it is fine. But when I click on edit the whole page fills with red error messages abut reflist and notelist. Is it the same for you? Fill= everything before and after the actual page content. I've been editing all day, no prob, but not this page.

It might be me, or maybe a new implementation of something lua-ish. For instance the client part of the window goes black between transitions. Very disconcerting.

John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Tue 20:09, wikitime= 12:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

No, I'm not seeing anything strange there. One for WP:VPT, perhaps. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:18, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
OK thanks for checking. I guess it's me, and a reboot is called for. I thought all changes were recorded in history, but I went to my sandbox earlier, first time this year, and it was nothing like how I left it, but nothing in history. Conspiracy theorists, queue up behind me! John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Tue 21:07, wikitime= 13:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
I tried reboot but it didn't help. I put it on WP:VPT but not much joy so far. Howver one reply was that it happened when he pressed 'show preview', which reminded me I have my preferences set to show preview on first edit. So could you possibly try it again, but press show preview after pressing edit (the one at the top).
John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Wed 00:21, wikitime= 16:21, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Nope, a few red links but no red error messages. At VPT you mentioned "Show preview on first edit", so I tried that as well, and saw nothing unusual. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:33, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
Still no resolution, and all I've seen so far is a lot of bodgers crashing around without any real idea of what they're doing. Seems like they've not even read all the notes I've written, because they conflict with the idea they already have – "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts".
A propos (slightly), I'd like to get some sort of {{cite oclc}} going, more or less identical with {{cite isbn}}, particularly aimed at books which are too old to have an isbn, but notable enough to make it into the world cat. Where would I start that particular ball rolling? John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Wed 19:57, wikitime= 11:57, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I suggest Help talk:Citation Style 1. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:05, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Bill Cosby in advertising

Thank you for your cleanup edits to this article, very much appreciated! -- Zanimum (talk) 14:30, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Just the one edit from me, I think, but your thanks are welcome just the same. -- John of Reading (talk) 14:32, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Waldemar Olszewski

The principle (or only) contributor to this has asked me for help regarding several recent hacks. Asked me, because I have been offering advice and help since the page first popped up on the error list.

I notice you were the last one there, and I do feel you could give better advice than me. My advice would be to bulk out the body more, and form more/better links between the body and all those citations. Could you send her some thoughts?

John of Cromer in Philippines (talk) mytime= Thu 17:42, wikitime= 09:42, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I saw the post on your talk page. I've left an opinion at Talk:Waldemar Olszewski; I don't want my edit to be taken as an endorsement of the long version. The author should be discussing this with Yobol (talk · contribs) or Dominus Vobisdu (talk · contribs), preferably on the article talk page. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for helping me to categorizing my article!!

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
message Anna Karolina Heinrich (talk) 09:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Anna Karolina Heinrich (talk) 09:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, but you should really be thanking Rklear (talk · contribs) who did the real work (diff) - I just put them back after they went missing. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:54, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Reflectivism article

Hi John -- thanks for your copy-editing on my fairly substantial revisions to the article on Reflectivism. Since January, I've added a number of references to the article. I was wondering if it mightn't be possible to remove the "needs additional citations" header. Thanks! --Ksamjg (talk) 15:11, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you've obviously put some effort into this. I'll remove the tag. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:33, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

shared IP

I am last 2 years on mobile Internet and my IP isn't only mine. Also IP is somewhere out my country. I have account created from my physical IP (my PC). But I not use my account on mobile Internet. Have a nice day. Zoran P.S. In biology I can add not remove content I am retired forest ranger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 09:36, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Understood! This often happens. If you are not the person my message was intended for, please ignore it. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:43, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Eyes wanted at Help:Searching

Hi, John,

You seem to be an active watcher of the Help:Searching page. I'm trying to improve the article Intro. and organization (WP search and Google search info. was all jumbled together), and have run into what appears to be ownership issues. The "owner" has even proposed forking or moving the page, apparently so that he can retain total ownership. I have listed it at WP:3O, but would appreciate other eyes. LittleBen (talk) 06:37, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I would need some kind of personality transplant before commenting on a disagreement like this one. -- John of Reading (talk) 08:02, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Rajiv Jain

Rajiv Jain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)


I am a frequent user of Wikipedia since 1st December 2009 when I need to research on people, practices, places and things. I would like to start by sharing my deep appreciation for the great work that others like you and yourself are doing to maintain the quality and accuracy of articles on Wikipedia.

While I appreciate the continuous necessity to review the contents on your pages, I was unpleasantly surprised to see Mr. Rajiv Jain (cinematographer) nominated for deletion from your esteemed pages.

I request you to kindly peruse through what I have enumerated below and then make an informed decision on the way forward on this page and his presence there.

Towards this attempt, I would like to share with you a few reasons why I believe that Mr. Rajiv Jain’s candidature befits his presence on Wikipedia.

1. Below mentioned are a few sources that will point out his contributions to Indian cinema

a. http ://


c. http://



2. I have edited this page and have removed links to his website, interviews, articles or blog (which some have commented to have been created personally by himself)

3. IMDB (internet Movie Database) is a credible site which enumerates the work of notable contributors and related cinema releases. I request you to kindly credit them with the professional respect and consideration that one would give to honourable peers. While IMDB may not equate to notability or nomination to a celebrity club, it can undoubtedly be considered as the most reliable data base on films and key contributors to the industry

4. As a regular user of Wikipedia, I can assure you of the presence of many other names that would earn lower eligibility to be on the coveted Wikipedia pages. These less than worthy nominations are present from all industries viz; politics, international relations, the corporate world, Bollywood and more importantly, Indian cinematographers. I would of course refrain from being rude enough to mention their names or nominate them for deletion. In the event you do proceed with your decision to do away with Mr. Jain’s presence on your pages, I would certainly ask you to peruse through the following link and proceed with appropriate due diligence:

5. I request you to kindly Google about him using ‘RAJEEV JAIN CINEMATOGRAPHER’ as keywords for your search. I assure you that you will be able to read a lot of information about him in the form of write ups, interviews, videos on You tube, his working stills etcetera

6. Mr. Jain has worked with notablable film Producers / Directors like like Aziz Mirza, Chandrakant Kulkarni, Ketan Mehta, Makrand Deshpande, Late Mukul S. Anand, Nitin Chandrakant Desai, Rajiv Rai, Satish Kaushik, Shyam Benegal, Subhash Ghai and Wanuri Kahiu, who are themselves present on Wikipedia.

7. While I have edited his page to only include professional essentials, I would like to point out that the contents on his page were not very different from the content on the Wikipedia pages of other cinematographers

a. I do not think it will be criminal to mention his wife and daughters’ names on his page as a person’s success at work is fuelled by the support, faith and love of his family. Besides, many other cinematographers have their spousal and children’s details mentioned on their pages.

i. His daughter Abigail Jain is a popular Indian television actor who has a Wikipedia page to herself.

ii. His daughter Kimberly also had a Wikipedia page, which has now been discontinued as she has taken a brief brake to complete her high school education

8. While I appreciate the spirit behind the freedom available to anyone to nominate personalities / articles for deletion from Wikipedia, I would like to share a recommendation that you also put in place a method to control nominations that are made with mala fide intent (of which I am certain is this case) I realise that my notes and comments are lengthy and therefore appreciate your time and patience to read through it. I look forward to an informed decision on the matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maniksh (talkcontribs) 19:18, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for tidying the article, and thank you for making these comments here (I've moved them to a separate section at the bottom of the page, to avoid breaking up the earlier series of comments and answers). I think the best thing for me to do is to copy them to the deletion discussion, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rajiv Jain, so that the editors most experienced in assessing deletion can see them. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:35, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
(More) I see that you've posted the comment there already. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:39, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
(More) I haven't looked this morning to see what replies you've received elsewhere, but I'll have a go:
  1. To satisfy the Wikipedia inclusion guideline, the article needs to show that he has received substantial coverage in at least two reliable sources - there's a handy summary of this at WP:42. I would expect to see coverage in mainstream news media - not any site that aims to have a page on everyone in the industry, and not a site that accepts user-submitted content.
  2. Thank you. If the page does survive the deletion discussion, it will look more like an encyclopedia article thanks to your efforts.
  3. An IMDb link is helpful, but not enough to satisfy the Wikipedia inclusion guideline. See WP:IMDb.
  4. With over four million articles, and many people in the world who would like a "coveted Wikipedia page", there are bound to be many articles created that don't satisfy the inclusion guidelines. I won't go looking for them; I spend most of my time at Wikipedia fixing spelling and grammar errors.
  5. If you can pick out any coverage that passes as a reliable source, then please post it in the article, its talk page, or in the deletion discussion.
  6. Working with a "notable" person is not enough; see WP:NOTINHERITED.
  7. See my answer "4". I notice that the article Abigail Jain has itself been nominated for deletion.
  8. The control against "nominations that are made with mala fide intent" is the "Articles for deletion" process. Deletion nominations are listed for at least seven days and are seen and checked by many experienced editors. Many discussions end with the article being kept; many end when additional press coverage is found so that the article ends up in better shape than before. As a general rule, it is better to Comment on the content, not the contributor. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:49, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

Tireless Contributor Barnstar.gif The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
John, I award you the Tireless Contributor Barnstar for all the hard work you do on Wikipedia.

In my opinion your many contributions and your great attitude have vastly improved the project. :-)

Marek.69 talk 18:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

That's a very kind thought - thank you! -- John of Reading (talk) 20:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Template:DNAU for RfC

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Hello, John of Reading. You have new messages at Misza13's talk page.
Message added -- Trevj (talk) 11:51, 1 May 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.


thanks for your effort of deleting that Mashachapada Road page and helping wikipedia to maintain it s standard.
i will again request you to delete Agarwal Green Village ‎ page. it just a small area of Mira Road town and do not deserve to be wikipedia article.
i will not say anything about your deletion of Rajiv Jain page, i do not know about him. But i am sure about her daughter Abigail Jain works and her popularity. there can exist wikipedia page on her. the article may not be well written but it does not mean that it should be deleted. as resident of india, i know she is quite poplular and acting in a few daily soaps. it is not worth to delete her article. so i would simply ask u not to support its deletion as started by user 'Fiddle Faddle'.
this is just my suggestion as i will be better knowing about persons related to india.Arja36 (talk) 23:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I am not an admin and cannot delete anything myself. Instead, I can only nominate something for deletion according to the Wikipedia:Deletion policy - and so can you. The deletion policy isn't about whether someone is "popular" or what the person does, but about whether the person is "notable" in a special Wikipedia sense that you can read about at Wikipedia:Notability. If you'd like the Abigail Jain article to be kept, the way to do it is to dig out some press coverage and add it to the article, to demonstrate that other people have found it worthwhile to write about her. There's a handy summary of this at WP:42. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:16, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I KNOW U CAN'T delete ur self. i was thanking u for nominating article for deletion.

thanks for info. i know that that to prevent article Abigail Jain from deletion,i have to add info to article, but i should get time for that as i am a working person,till then the article may deleted.Arja36 (talk) 03:48, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi I got your message on my Talk Page.

I posted requesting you to block anonymous user IP address but you said you could not block that IP that user spammed my user page and I had to deleted it. As I did not know I could not lock my page or I would have locked it to prevent abuse such as this. I am sorry you could not do anything about this as I was hoping you would block or ban that user IP address. Still thank you for responding to my email anyway. Andrea Borman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andreaborman (talkcontribs) 08:08, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I am not an administrator here, so I don't have the ability to block users or lock pages myself. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:29, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

AWB request


Can you scan through the article in my sandbox with your AWB? Thanks Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:28, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done -- John of Reading (talk) 20:43, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

ALT Text

Hi, John. I was browsing around the site when I landed on your user page. I noticed that you mentioned ALT Text on your page. I just saw this feature for the first time yesterday when I landed on this guideline page. I had never heard of it. While I am fairly new here, only 6 months, I have spent a lot of time over the past two years learning about WP and the community by browsing the site. I have read many types of pages, like: policy, article, help, user, many types of talk, discussion (AFD, RfC, RfA, dispute resolution, etc.) and more. I have not seen ALT Text used in any articles yet. Is it just me or is it not used very much? I noticed the page said it should always be used. I don't think this is a true guideline though the accessibility menu on the right of the page list it under the heading "guidelines". Just since yesterday, I have especially been looking for it as I go about the site. I know you must think me unusual to read so much before starting to edit. Even now that I have started editing, I often get distracted by something new to read even if it is just another article. I guess I have a large curiosity. Anyway, I am interested to find out why so many images do not conform to this guideline. Maybe it should be a true guideline or part of MoS. I would very much appreciate your insight. Probing Mind (talk) 05:00, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not used much. You'll find it used properly in Featured articles such as today's George Harrison, but that may be about it. It's mentioned in the MOS at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Accessibility and, briefly, in a couple of other places. I don't know how large a problem this is. You could try turning off images in your browser to see how much the lack of alt text hinders your understanding of the articles. You might like to ask Graham87 (talk · contribs) for his opinion, too, since he uses a screen reader.
I have no problem with your reading the guidelines before editing. I began here by fixing typos, and read an awful lot of behind-the-scenes pages before daring to do anything more substantial. -- John of Reading (talk) 05:33, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Hi John and Probing Mind, I just found this discussion through the nifty new Notifications feature (while I do have reservations about it from an accessibility perspective, it does provide some neat functionality). From my perspective as a screen reader user, the value of alt text ranges from "nice to have" to "essential" depending on how important a particular image is to the article and how easily describable it is to a blind person, but as someone who has always been blind, it's hard to know what I'm missing without a proper description of the image. For me, anyway, it's not that common for images to scream out at me as *needing* alt text, but it does happen from time to time; I'm generally more interested in the text of the articles. Also without alt text, the screen reader reads the filename of the image when I focus on the link to its description page. Screen reader users like myself just learn to filter those things out (we've had to filter out much worse before), so it's not that big of a deal. John's suggestion of reading articles without images is a good one.
I also commend your predilection to read lots of articles and other pages about Wikipedia. I was like that when I was new, and still am when I find something that I haven't read before (which still happens every so often). You might find Wikipedia's list of unusual articles to be very interesting and addictive reading, in case you haven't already encountered it. Graham87 12:33, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
@Graham87: Thank you for your comments - and, yes, I had the notifications feature in mind when I linked your user name. So it's working! -- John of Reading (talk) 13:17, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Oxford Meetup 5

Face-smile.svg Thank you for attending the fourth Oxford Meetup, and it was a pleasure meeting you. We have decided to hold the next Oxford meetup in one month's time, rather than two, so that it falls within Oxford term-time. A page has been created about the fifth Oxford Meetup; please sign up if you think that you are able to attend - if the date or venue are unsuitable, please comment at its discussion page.

Please spread the word to anybody else who you think might be interested. The next UK meetups are at: Glasgow; London; and Nottingham, all on 12 May 2013. --Redrose64 (talk) 08:50, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I enjoyed the meetup yesterday. But I'll have to give June 2nd a miss, since we have some relations coming for Sunday lunch. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Bring them along, there is no requirement to be a registered user. They can have dinner in the pub, Sunday Roast Meal Deal or whatever it's called. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:56, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Elevator filter

I have requested an edit filter for the elevator vandal, as you can see at Wikipedia:Edit_filter/Requested#The_elevator_vandal. I don't know why I didn't think of that before. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:51, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't think he edits frequently enough for a filter to be worthwhile. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:54, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Maybe you are right. It has been going on for about nine months, in which time there have been 41 edits (assuming there are no others that I don't know about), an average of just over one per week. JamesBWatson (talk) 14:10, 11 May 2013 (UTC)


Christmas Cookies Plateful.JPG Here's a plate full of cookies to share!
Hi John of Reading/Archive 12, here are some delicious cookies to help brighten your day! However, there are too many cookies here for one person to eat all at once, so please share these cookies with at least two other editors by copying {{subst:Sharethecookies}} to their talk pages. Enjoy! WhiteWriterspeaks 14:20, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Mmm, thanks! -- John of Reading (talk) 19:12, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Bill Jones (sportscaster)

Thanks for correcting my spelling error. I wasn't aware that I mispelled instructor. Ashbeckjonathan 15:55, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

MATT HICKS and not Bill Jones

I'm sorry the mistake, I thought it was Bill Jones, then I realized it was Matt Hicks. My fault. Ashbeckjonathan 15:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

All part of the service! Thanks for getting back to me. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:21, 13 May 2013 (UTC)


Thanks, I was going to bring it up somewhere but I wasn't sure what the problem was. ResMar 20:01, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I saw your edit in "recent changes" and poked around a bit. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:04, 15 May 2013 (UTC)


I did not immediately notice that you had fixed the glitches that BracketBot had flagged.

My typing and eyesight are not as good as they once were, and "{ [" and "n m" are easy to mix up. Maybe wiki could optionally colour them different!!??

"rn" also looks like "m", etc., particuarly in the search or find "boxes".

Such colouration would also help with File:...... and File:....... constructs, and help avoid make spelling-error-corrections in file names, where the "File:" and "Image:" are not visible during a search for a misspelled word such as "succcess".

The colouration should be able to be turned off/o with a function key. Tabletop (talk) 12:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

@Tabletop:There's a tickbox in the preferences that does some of that: "Gadgets" tab, "Editing" section, "Dot's syntax highlighter". -- John of Reading (talk) 15:40, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Looking forward to your assessment

I've made a couple of AWB feature requests at Wikipedia_talk:AutoWikiBrowser/Feature_requests.

I'm eager to learn your expert opinion of how feasible they are to implement. The Transhumanist 01:19, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

For that you need Rjwilmsi (talk · contribs) or Magioladitis (talk · contribs), who know the code inside-out. They frequently comment at the "feature requests" page. My comment at VPT is based on older threads about red links such as this one and this one. -- John of Reading (talk) 05:56, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

There's a reply/question waiting for you at...

Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 123#Current method I'm using to remove redlink entries in a set of lists - need faster method     The Transhumanist 03:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

@The Transhumanist: I picked Outline of Paraguay at random. I can't think of a neat way to remove all the redlinks from it. If I had to do it, it would be by manual editing a section at a time. I then looked at its talk page and found your note concerning redlinks from 2009 - but four years is a long time!
I've looked through your recent edits at the various noticeboards and have made a comment or two where I can, plus an edit at {{Outline City+}}. For that template you'll need to arrange the #ifexist's so that entire bulletpoints are omitted, not just the link - the asterisk and the newline will have to go too, otherwise the reader will see empty bullet points or blank lines.
Sorry not to be more help. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Every little bit helps. The Transhumanist 08:31, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
For Help me. Thanks a lot! Frze (talk) 11:37, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Pages in category "Pages with incorrect ref formatting" Julius von Verdy du Vernois & Josias von Heeringen: What's wrong? --Frze (talk) 12:35, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) This is what happened. You could WP:NULLEDIT all affected pages, or wait for the Job queue to reach them. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:49, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I've hit these two articles with a null edit. CAT:REF is down to just three entries, which is excellent. And thank you for the barnstar! -- John of Reading (talk) 14:16, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for help. have a nice weekend. --Frze (talk) 09:27, 1 June 2013 (UTC)


Not sure how you are still using SVN 9049, because I thought it should have been turned off. The latest version is (SVN 9117). I'm currently running SVN 9227. I compile AWB myself. The latest removed the edit summary tab. Instead the edit summary is above the edit box. It is much larger and shows all of the summary. This is an improvement, but takes space from the edit box. Bgwhite (talk) 07:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for this, I've downloaded -- John of Reading (talk) 08:26, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

cleaning my sandbox

I got your user page from some other 'talk' page in Wiki referring to you for cleaning up sandbox. Please can you help me clean my sandbox? Thanks, Veredai (talk) 12:00, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

User:Veredai/sandbox (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)
Yes check.svg Done -- John of Reading (talk) 12:07, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

How do I archive my talk page?

It has grown rather long. I'd just like to do it manually rather than automatically. John of Cromer in transit (talk) mytime= Wed 09:58, wikitime= 08:58, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

@Johnmperry: The instructions for that are at Help:Archiving a talk page#Cut and paste procedure. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:25, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Rajiv Jain (Cinematographer)

I've added a G5 to your G4 speedy: please see WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Wanurikahiu. Thanks, Captain Conundrum (talk) 12:30, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

He/she/they do keep on trying! -- John of Reading (talk) 12:33, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Hidden text search in local copy

Following from Help talk:Hidden text#Searching for hidden text?, it'd be good to find all instances of the phrases "please do not add an" and "please review the discussion at", if those are contained within the database dumps. Much thanks, and no great rush. –Quiddity (talk) 09:02, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll do these once I have the early June database dump. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:04, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
@Quiddity: I've created User:Quiddity/please do not add an with 530 articles. The second search only found Ludwig van Beethoven. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:21, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

by who?

Where is that [by who?] template used as i.e. {{citation needed}} ? (talk) 10:27, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you're looking for {{by whom}}. At the bottom of Template:Citation needed there's a box showing all these inline tags. -- John of Reading (talk) 10:33, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Exactly! Facebook like thumb.png (talk) 10:43, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

This one has me beat

Warsaw dialect is currently showing on the reference error list. But it hasn't been changed, so my thinking is that a template has changed. If I add {{reflist}} to the very bottom, then a reference appears, but its backlink doesn't go anywhere. I looked at several templates: none seems to have changed. What do you make of it? I'd be interested to know John of Cromer in transit (talk) mytime= Fri 12:06, wikitime= 11:06, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

A similar thing is happening at Yavapai language, and when I add {{reflist}} it gives the same reference as the other, with no operable backlink. Hmmm. John of Cromer in transit (talk) mytime= Fri 12:12, wikitime= 11:12, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Ugh. I think I fixed it with this edit. If you see the same error at other articles using {{Infobox language}}, give them a null edit and see if it goes away. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:46, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

All those curly brackets make my eyes go funny! There were four or more other languages in the error list and now there aren't. John of Cromer in transit (talk) mytime= Fri 12:53, wikitime= 11:53, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Robert Plot

Something wrong with a template? It appaers in Pages in category "Pages with incorrect ref formatting". Thanks. --Frze (talk) 12:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Fixed - I loaded it into AWB and it showed me where a "ref" tag was missing. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:52, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. New problems on the list: List of Degrassi: The Next Generation episodes, List of cities in Canada, List of communities in Saskatchewan. Best wishes --Frze (talk) 18:34, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
For all three of those, the "View templates on this page" link showed that a transcluded page has been damaged and then fixed today, so I hit each page with a null edit and then purged the category. That cleared them from the list. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:55, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

User page Editing

Hi there, just wanted to say thanks for editing my page, it looks great!

Dantheman4297 (talk) 20:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Glad to have helped! -- John of Reading (talk) 20:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Migdia Chinea

Migdia Chinea Varela (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

My page is being vandalized big time -- I request a lock placed on that page. Please let me know and thanx so much as always! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Migdiachinea (talkcontribs) 15:26, 11 June 2013‎

I don't think it is vandalism, but I did leave a message at User talk:Timmy43 when I saw that he had put the date back in. As I understand the rules here, if your birth date has been published in a "reliable source", then it probably belongs in the article; but not otherwise.
As Orangemike (talk · contribs) and others have advised you before, please don't edit the article yourself except to remove obvious vandalism - swear words and such like. Instead please post at Talk:Migdia Chinea Varela. -- John of Reading (talk) 15:42, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Email notice

Hi John of Reading! Just thought I would let you know that I have been linking to your talk page from my email notice for the past 4 months! See my recent change here. Sorry if you have received any messages that have not made sense :). ·addshore· talk to me! 21:21, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

The wonders of copy-and-paste! No, I don't think it caused any problem. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:35, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, the joy of copy and paste! I don't believe I left it like that for so long! :) ·addshore· talk to me! 22:01, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Page name in italics

Why has Spencer Breslin got it? How to change it? John of Cromer in transit (talk) mytime= Fri 17:44, wikitime= 16:44, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Fixed with this edit. By default, any article using {{Infobox album}} gets its page name set in italics. That's usually correct, but not in this case. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:49, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Editors Barnstar Hires.png The Editor's Barnstar
Thank you for letting me know, about the links. Faizanhb2 (talk) 21:03, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the barnstar - glad to have helped! -- John of Reading (talk) 06:23, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

2012 New Zealand primetime television schedule

I removed your prod because articles on historic television schedules are common on Wikipedia, and it would be appropriate to have a discussion about whether we should have such articles rather than to delete individual articles one at a time. See Category:Television schedules and its subcats for the other such articles.

I started such a discussion in 2007, following my nomination of several templates for deletion in 2006. Relevant links are at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Archive 3#TV program schedules and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Archive 5#Current primetime television schedules. I did not see consensus for deletion, so I stopped removing such content. Consensus can change, but I think it probably has not done so towards deletion of these articles.-gadfium 23:12, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'll leave it to the Wikiproject to decide on these articles. I stumble across all sorts of things when scanning for typos. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:26, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


Please delete page. This Orange Mike delights in railroading me for his own reasons and I've been bullied by him before -- he's obviously got an ax to grind with me and I don't know why. Please, let's put a stop to it by deleting the page. Thank you. Mig (talk) 15:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I think this article does belong in the encyclopedia, since some respected newspapers have written about you. But I've made a comment at the Biographies noticeboard; lots of experienced editors will be looking at those comments and at the article over the next 24 hours. -- John of Reading (talk) 15:35, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

...Baby One More Time (album)

Something wrong with a template? It appaers in category "Pages with incorrect ref formatting". Thanks. --Frze (talk) 12:30, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I made a nulledit, now it seems to be o.k. --Frze (talk) 12:33, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it looks good - and CAT:REF is completely clear! -- John of Reading (talk) 14:14, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi John

I saw you reverted my edit on Syed Noor Zaman Naqshbandi Shazli. This user Wasif have posted all those tags on my article without any reason given, and without any discuss on tha talk page. Therefore, I removed those tags. This article is going through Major Edits. I am in the process of gathering more book refrences to make it even beter. So, Please I request you not to revert my edits on this article. This user Wasif is vandalising all my edits and reverting them without any given reason.

I suggest you post at User talk:Wasifwasif and ask him to post explanations at Talk:Syed Noor Zaman Naqshbandi Shazli. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:18, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

AWB questions

I could not understand the explanation for template substitution in the manual.

What does template substitution do?

(What does it substitute the template with?)

How does it work? The Transhumanist 08:35, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Most of this is covered at WP:SUBST. It might be best illustrated with a simple example. Consider wikicode like this:
The area of the city is 25 km{{sup|2}}
This produces the following:
The area of the city is 25 km2
Here, the {{sup}} template is transcluded, so it's always shown in the wiki markup as a template. If it were to be substituted, i.e.
The area of the city is 25 km{{subst:sup|2}}
this produces the following:
The area of the city is 25 km2
which looks exactly the same. However, if you now edit the page again, you'll see that the template has disappeared:
The area of the city is 25 km<sup>2</sup>
it's been replaced by the markup that it represents. Some templates are designed to always be substituted; some should never be substituted; a few are happy either way. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Redrose, I think that covers it. @The Transhumanist: I've never used that part of the AWB setup, but if there's anything still unclear then I will try it out in a sandbox. -- John of Reading (talk) 10:22, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Oh, page substitution. I've applied substitutions a lot using AWB's append feature to post spam, I mean newsletters and announcements.   :)   It didn't occur to me that "template substitution" in the AWB manual was referring to the same thing (it was out of the usual situational context and I didn't recognize it). So, instances of templates that are inappropriately transcluded can be converted to substituted using AWB without specifying a search/replace string. Makes sense. Thank you. The Transhumanist 04:17, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Some baklava for you!

Baklava - Turkish special, 80-ply.JPEG ­ Fan of Food Roleplay (talk) 14:11, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Delicious, thank you! -- John of Reading (talk) 15:12, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Something's badly wrong

I don't know where to report this, although I have put it on WP:VPT. Currently there are more than 11,200 entries on Category:Pages with missing references list, up from about a dozen last night. Clearly there is a fault ina major template, but which one? John of Cromer (talk) mytime= Fri 09:31, wikitime= 08:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't see what the problem is this time. -- John of Reading (talk) 08:55, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
There are no recent template or module changes which might have done this. I suspect something at MediaWiki level, possibly connected with the 45-minute outage earlier today as reported at WP:VPT#Fatal exception of type MWException and subsequent. --Redrose64 (talk) 08:59, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I found the purge instructions. Hope that will clear it. John of Cromer (talk) mytime= Fri 10:04, wikitime= 09:04, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

That seems to work, but limited to 500 in one go. So it's taking most of the morning. Must be some really flakey code in wp. John of Cromer (talk) mytime= Fri 12:01, wikitime= 11:01, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
I suggest you explain what you are doing at WP:VPT#Something's badly wrong in case anyone has any better ideas. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:04, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
The only active poster there seems to have been me! :-) I just finished, about 3pm. Ready for tomorrow! John of Cromer (talk) mytime= Fri 15:22, wikitime= 14:22, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


Tell me what you think. I think part of this is soapbox-tosh and unencyclopaedic. I have removed it twice and the editor has replaced it. Or rather, rolled back to the illiterate first attempt. Let it go or escalate? John of Cromer (talk) mytime= Fri 15:28, wikitime= 14:28, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Quite a lot of the long version was sourced, though written badly; the short version is missing some of the news coverage that shows the term might be notable. Don't know! Meanwhile, I see that this new user's talk page is still a red link, so the author will have no idea what is happening. -- John of Reading (talk) 14:41, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
At least two editors thought the same as me, and rolled back to my reversion. I relented slightly, and let one ref back in John of Cromer (talk) mytime= Sat 13:15, wikitime= 12:15, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

CANNES MARKET DAILIES Mig (talk) 04:39, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

@Migdiachinea: This blog post is dated just a few days ago, so are you entered for this year's festival? Good luck if so! If you receive any mainstream media coverage please post it at Talk:Migdia Chinea Varela. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:36, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi John. I don't expect any mainstream coverage because its been a while. Would it be possible for you to edit out the soapbox comments in my talk page from the orange guy! They're unnecessary and intended to humiliate. Thank you and kindness Mig (talk) 20:51, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

The guideline here allows you to delete any or all of the sections from your user talk page, User talk:Migdiachinea; or I could set up automatic archiving for you so that anything over 30 days old gets moved to a different page. The discussions at the article talk page, Talk:Migdia Chinea Varela, need to stay visible. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:01, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Filresh Veetable

Quacks like a USER:Technoquat WP:DUCK Robert McClenon (talk) 23:11, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeed! I started to edit the SPI page yesterday, but decided it was time for me to go to bed. -- John of Reading (talk) 05:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Barnstar of Reversion Hires.png The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
For deleting quacking. Not really against vandalism, but against trolling. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)


Please look for sightseeing/sight seeing/sight-seeing; also site seeing and site-seeing when you reach the letter "s". Thank you. Respectfully, Tiyang (talk) 15:49, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Interesting suggestion! The letter "S" is about a year away, I think, so instead I've put this on my "miscellaneous to do" list. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:01, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
No big rush on this as I'll only be 74 then so I can wait. Your response amused me and I believe my request amused you. Thank you. Respectfully, Tiyang (talk) 00:29, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
@Tiyang: I'm tackling this now. My current list includes all articles matching "site<optional spaces, hyphens, dashes etc>see<optional extra letters>". With about a third of the list done I've made only nine of these fixes (Examples 1, 2, 3). That's surprisingly few - perhaps another of the project's typo fixers has tackled this one recently.
I didn't search for "sightseeing" because that is the standard spelling ( link), nor "sight-seeing" because some dictionaries allow it (OneLook). And I didn't scan for "sight seeing" because "sight seeing > sightseeing" seems too trivial a change. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:15, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
I did not know you would be tackling this so soon and your timing is perfect because my 73d birthday was yesterday. I thought I would like a WikiCake but this is so much nicer because it is a huge contribution to Wikipedia. Perhaps a friendly talk page stalker made some of the changes? Thank you so very much. Respectfully, Tiyang (talk) 08:23, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Fixing reference errors

Hello John! There is a new feature in en.wikipedia, showing Cite error: A list-defined reference is not used in the content (see the help page). Now it is impossible to find out which list defined reference is not used. What can we do to let us show the old version, when the names were given? Thanks a lot. --Frze (talk) 08:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC) examples: Psilocybin mushroom, Here's to Never Growing Up

That sounds like MediaWiki:Cite error references missing key, which is not new, although its text was altered a few weeks ago from this. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:11, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
I can't see any easy way to find which reference is not used. Let's ping Gadget850 (talk · contribs) to ask why the message has been simplified. -- John of Reading (talk) 10:52, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
EDIT CONFLICT: MediaWiki:Cite error references missing key seems not the right solution. The old text was (until at least 2013-06-25) Cite error: <ref> tag with name "abc" defined in <references> is not used in prior text (see the help page). So you could find easy the unused references. Take a look now at Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting --Frze (talk) 10:54, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
You are right - this is the answer. --Frze (talk) 11:05, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Gadget850 has fixed the message. I have purged the two articles you mentioned here, seen the reference names, and fixed the errors. I confess I can't face the backlog this afternoon! -- John of Reading (talk) 13:51, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for help. I fixed as much I could do. Best wishes --Frze (talk) 16:08, 7 July 2013 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, John of Reading. You have new messages at Dewritech's talk page.
Message added 13:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Dewritech (talk) 13:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, John of Reading. You have new messages at Wikipedia_talk:Twinkle#Watch_Page_Preference.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

New kind of error

I'm seeing a lot of a new kind of error recently, which I don't really think is vandalism although it looks like it. Basically enormous chunks (10,000 bytes or more) of html are added to the page, in a variety of languages. I think it's a fault arising from the visual editor. have you seen it, do you have any views? John of Cromer (talk) mytime= Mon 18:26, wikitime= 17:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you mean this edit and this one? I haven't seen edits like those before; they look like a misbehaving browser extension. It's not the visual editor, as IP editors haven't been given it yet. I'll post at VPT. -- John of Reading (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay. Yes, it was that kind of thing. Often with Russian or Turkish or Portuguese text. I also am seeing a lot of occurrences of <nowiki></nowiki> - can't be from the editors' knowledge bank I'm sure. John of Cromer (talk) mytime= Thu 10:26, wikitime= 09:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
The reply at VPT was that those tags mean the text was copy+pasted out of Google Translate. The <nowiki> tags are a side-effect of the Visual Editor; that's discussed at VPT here. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:37, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


Thankyou so much for all your help, it's great to know there are people out there who can answer questions so quickly. I'm getting onto those incorrect references now! Flying Buttress (talk) 09:50, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

user status

Is there a quick way, or any way at all, of viewing user status such as how long a wikipedian and how many edits? Or does it depend on whether that info is given on their homepage? I know there is a link at the bottom of the contributions page, but that doesn't work for me because it whinges about certificate errors. John of Cromer (talk) mytime= Sat 21:47, wikitime= 20:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Paste this into your Special:MyPage/vector.js
// Add info on userpages listing their flags, account-age, contributions-count, and last-edit-time
and rejoice. :) –Quiddity (talk) 20:55, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
And/or turn on Navigation popups in your preferences. Whenever I hover my mouse over a link to a user page or user talk page, I get a popup showing, among other things, the account's age, permissions and edit count - "7104 edits since: 2007-08-20" in your case. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:15, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Editor of the Week

Editor of the week barnstar.svg Editor of the Week
Your ongoing efforts to improve the encyclopedia have not gone unnoticed: You have been selected as Editor of the Week, for tireless contributions to tedious tasks. Thank you for the great contributions! (courtesy of the Wikipedia Editor Retention Project)

User Sophus Bie (talk) submitted the following nomination to Editor of the Week:

  • "Though Editor John of Reading has been around for less than four years, they have already made nearly 200,000 contributions to the English Wikipedia. Many of these edits are due to their dedication to keeping Wikipedia free of typos, which they correct on a truly monuments scale. Furthermore, they are dedicated to improving the Portal namespace, having created or improved over half a dozen portals single-handedly. Finally, they are frequently seen helping other editors at the Help Desk. So, I hereby nominate them as Editor of the Week!"

You can copy the following text to your user page to display a user box proclaiming your selection as Editor of the Week:

{{subst:Wikipedia:WikiProject Editor Retention/Editor of the Week/Recipient user box}}

Thanks again for your work! The Interior (Talk) 23:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Project editor retention.svg
Editor of the week.svg
Magdalen College (Oxford) Crest.svg
John of Reading
Proud Alumnus
Editor of the Week
for the week beginning July 14, 2013
Editor is defined as "a person who prepares material for publication". Editor John of Reading refines the Encyclopedia. A Latin speaker with a background in mathematics, John is one of the English Wikipedia's most prolific contributors. Providing help to new users and efficiently correcting the many spelling errors in the encyclopedia are two of John's specialties.
Recognized for
Focusing on and fixing tiny imperfections on a monumental scale.
Notable work(s)
Active participant at Typo Team, Help Desk and WP:Portal
Nomination page
Well well! Thank you, Sophus Bie, for your nomination, and thank you, The Interior, for presenting this award. Thank you for noticing! -- John of Reading (talk) 07:02, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I too am a "typo-holic". Hard to resist those little devils. Thanks for all you do. ```Buster Seven Talk 23:30, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks, John, for all your work! It's hugely appreciated. -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:02, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
  • John, I forgot to give you this humongous infobox dedicated to yourself. The Interior (Talk) 05:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Thanks - "humongous" is the word! "Latin speaker" is stretching the truth, I have to say. It's more "can decode Latin with an effort". -- John of Reading (talk) 06:05, 18 July 2013 (UTC)