User talk:Jordgette

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2009–2010 archive, in most cases things I did in my first two years on WP that pissed people off because I was trying to do the right thing (and, in a couple of cases, probably wasn't)

Wigner[edit]

Wigner's "consciousness-cause-collapse" was never that popular and not that much has been published on it. -- cheers, Michael C. Price talk 20:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure you're aware that the original Copenhagen interpretation is probably closer to Wigner's view than the present interpretation that many call "Copenhagen," which denies any role of the conscious act of measurement. So it's odd (and perhaps historically confusing) that on two separate articles we would say that (1) Few people accept Wigner's view yet (2) Copenhagen is the most popular interpretation. I thought it was best simply not to make such claims, especially since the sources are 15-20 years old. (Really, opinions in QM haven't changed since the early '90s?) -Jordgette (talk) 20:36, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Opinions in this field do not change that rapidly. Copenhagen is, and always was, very vague about collapse. -- cheers, Michael C. Price talk 21:08, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Hey There[edit]

I am very frustrated with the resistance I am encountering on the 7 World Trade Center page. Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but that paragraph is, actually, full of inacurracies. I am passionate about the subject, but am not doing personal attacks or anything like that and I am promoting things that I believe to be in line with wikipedia's policies - so why is no one even checking what I pointed out?Smitty121981 (talk) 23:12, 31 July 2011 (UTC)smitty121981

I understand. In my experience, the more passionate an editor feels about a topic, the less likely they are to be a patient and sober collaborator on that article. It's all the worse when they show up on a Featured Article that a years-long history of controversy (check the archives) and demand a bunch of changes with a "prove me wrong" approach. Just because you raise some points about the sources, we aren't all going to jump to do an hour's work on your request, particularly at this point with the edit warring -- never a good idea. If I were you, I'd take some time off, and when you come back, tackle one specific detail at a time, starting with the most innocuous ones. -Jordgette (talk) 23:29, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes thank you for understanding. You will find that despite my enthusiasm I am both patient and sober in my actions. I am new to wikipedia and did not know about edit-warring... I was simply reacting to all of you ganging up on me in the only way I knew how (since I am new). Did you even read my revision to the 7 World Trade Center page? I still think it stands as valid and necessary. I feel that as a community you all failed to

greet me in the way that I now know wikipedia recommends [1]. Other users

have threatened to ban me (without proper cause) and three users including yourself have already falsely insinuated that I am only here to inject bias! I have made no personal attacks myself, I'd really like it if I didn't receive them either. Most of all, it's very annoying to be told to gather a consensus on the discussion page before editing, when so far NO ONE has been interested in actually reaching that consensus. I have received no less that 8 replies from 4 users on the discussion, and NOT ONE actually addresses the content, old or new.

Can you tell me, when a sentence is wrong and it needs to be changed, what is the best way to state this to others? Right now I am saying that the articles says "blah blah blah" but blah blah blah is not in the source. That seems to me like a good way to present the problem but this to you is a "prove me wrong" approach. How exactly should I approach this differently? Thanks! Smitty121981 (talk) 02:21, 1 August 2011 (UTC)smitty121981
Well first of all, I avoid working on topics that I feel very strongly about and am emotionally invested in. We all go through that early in our WP editing careers, and it just never works out. I looked at your contribs and it looks like you've worked almost exclusively on this article. Surely there are other topics you're interested in that aren't so controversial and closely guarded.
If you must work on this article, like I've said several times, suggest changes one issue at a time. Quote the sentence, and then show very specifically what the source says or doesn't say. If you want to make two changes to one sentence, handle each change separately. Wait a few days and then proceed to the next one. Don't ask people to prove you wrong; you're the one making the positive assertions, so you need to demonstrate your position to other editors, in a sober and deliberate manner. Even if you're 100% right, the more impatient and demanding you are, the more resistance you'll meet. There's no rush with any of this. The world won't end if there are inaccuracies in this article tomorrow.
Regarding bias, I'm afraid you showed it with that edit that was quoted. To insert "allegedly" and say "It is sometimes asserted...", both in contradiction to reliable sources, reveals that you were coming from a particular angle. Unfortunately that edit will always be there, so in terms of neutrality you dug a hole for yourself right off the bat. When you combine that, the article's history of being a lightning rod for crusading Truthers (who go heavy on the all caps in my experience), and its Featured Article status...I hope you can understand why people are reacting the way they are. -Jordgette (talk) 02:55, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Well honestly I was expecting controversy, but I was not expecting so many personal attacks! It's not my fault that I actually know a lot about this subject and I found errors. Everyone is attacking me for that first stupid edit I made. I am sorry but saying "It is sometimes asserted..." does NOT contradict a reliable source. It is a true statement. This IS sometimes asserted. I had no idea that the wiki community was so resistant to any implication that the 9/11 story was anything but unanimously agreed upon by 100% of the public and 100% of professionals in the area, but the fact is that there are a lot of people who question things. Just because I acknowledged their existence does NOT mean that I agree with anything they say and it does NOT in any way imply that I was editing with bias. I am not arguing to keep this edit either but everyone keeps hounding me about it! And you know what? All caps are simply faster to type than bold or italic. Sorry.Smitty121981 (talk) 03:15, 1 August 2011 (UTC)smitty121981
Calling someone out for possible neutrality issues, based on their edit history, is not a personal attack. And, just because a small percentage of people (or even of reliable sources) take a fringe position does not mean that an article must acknowledge that throughout. -Jordgette (talk) 21:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, but "using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views" IS a personal attack and I feel this is how I am being treated. The funny thing is that I never stated any affiliation, but it is now up to 4 users who have basically said that I am a "Truther" or "conspiracy theorist" and therefore I have nothing valuable to add to the conversation. All because I used the word "allegedly". And like I said, I agreed with the decision to remove my very first rookie wikipedia edit... but for the record, I made the edit because I truly believed it made the article more neutral. Smitty121981 (talk) 03:51, 1 August 2011 (UTC)smitty121981

Double slit experiment[edit]

I have answered [2] --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 06:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Building 7 article[edit]

Another attempt I made at trimming the article was reverted. I am wondering if you supported the change I made since you did not raise any objections after I made the edit.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I have been resisting the urge to comment on everything that is being done to this article, particularly since the discussion is looking increasingly like a pissing contest. I have no objections to the reversions that have been done. Without accusing you of anything, I don't get why you are so intent on shortening this one section of this one article, which is already plenty short and tight. Then, when your edits are reverted and the status quo merely restored, you demand that people explain why each detail needs to remain. I think the burden of explaining oneself is on the person making the changes, but what do I know. I disagree strongly about putting details in the Collapse of the World Trade Center article. This article is on 7WTC, a building best known for its collapse, and so all details about 7WTC's collapse should be in the article specifically about 7WTC. Perhaps there should be an even more detailed article on the collapse of WTC7 alone? Even then, I would not cut from this article but instead would add to the new one. -Jordgette [talk] 23:18, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Are you going to respond to my comments here and here?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:47, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Probably not, I've spent most of the evening dealing with this mess as it is. -Jordgette [talk] 05:56, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Would you like me to make those changes you proposed? Tom Harrison Talk 17:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Sure, that would be helpful. I have updated the draft to reflect changes in the article since it was posted. Please note that the semiprotection header is not on the draft (a bot deleted it), so that will need to be retained from the current version. Also please check that the ABC News photo is included -- a bot had deleted that as well, but I have restored it in my draft. Thank you. -Jordgette [talk] 20:30, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Please respond to my comment here.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:48, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Arbitration Enforcement[edit]

As the filing party I'm letting you know I have concluded your filing on AE [3]. --WGFinley (talk) 05:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Non-free files in your user space[edit]

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Topic ban appeal[edit]

I am appealing the topic ban that WG issued on November 30th and thought you might want to comment.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 02:26, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Portrait of Gus Heinze[edit]

Hi Jordgette, I thought an illustrated portrait of your talented and special uncle would be a good filler for his article until or if a copyright free photo can be procured. I hope you like it but if you have any thoughts or a change you'd like in it, let me know. --MichaelNetzer (talk) 11:22, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, very nice! I'll tell him about it. -Jordgette [talk] 19:10, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions notification[edit]

This may be strictly a formality, but it is always better to have a reminder. If you would like this notification removed feel free to do so.

Keep in mind that editors involved in articles related to the September 11, 2001 attacks are subject to receiving discretionary sanctions if they repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. Such sanctions can include blocks, a revert limitation, or an article ban. Review the relevant decision here. Also please review the appropriate sections of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures. On a specific point I would suggest you look at Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in edit wars and specifically see WP:FIXED and WP:PRIOR. Also see WP:MINOR.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

This coming from someone who has just had an edit-warring block, 9/11 topic ban (which expired two days ago), and a block for violating the topic ban, and who lost all appeals of these sanctions. Why isn't there a WP:KETTLEBLACK? -Jordgette [talk] 18:40, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Actually, there is such an essay at WP:KETTLE.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:53, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Be sure to keep in mind WP:WIN as well. :) The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:33, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Wishing you a happy new year[edit]

Original Barnstar.png The Original Barnstar
For notable patience while working on a difficult topic. Tom Harrison Talk 18:47, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Back atcha. I'll try to stay cool in 2012. -Jordgette [talk] 18:52, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

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Wikidata[edit]

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Biocentrism move proposal[edit]

Seeing your edits there, it seems you might be interested in the biocentrism move proposal. 93.136.16.90 (talk) 11:27, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Your views presented on the Michael Hastings page[edit]

I want to address something you wrote on the Michael Hastings Talk page, in response to another user's proposed page content.

"The content is undue because it assumes the existence of "another side to the story," for which there is presently no reliably sourced evidence."

I ask you: can you prove the reliability of the sources you accept as reliable? No. You blindly take them as such, and give them the benefit of the doubt. You cite the LAPD's report of no foul play, which you do not know is reliable, to discredit all information contradicting it, since it is from an "official" institution. Since you do not know your source is reliable and cannot simply take the LAPD's statement as truth, the need is raised to include multiple sides to things and multiple sources, not just the story given by "officials" in an instance such as Hastings' death. I am not asking for someone's theory to be posted on Hastings' page. There are sources that for no reason should be considered less reliable than yours, facts that support the other side, but that in the Wikipedia page wouldn't have to be presented with bias, since they are only facts, contributing to the whole picture of the story. You ask for "evidence", but can you provide real evidence that there was no foul play? No. Your "evidence" again is the LAPD statement. On the other hand, there IS substantial evidence to warrant suspicion of this event at the very least. Hence, to retain an objective approach, there should be multiple sides accounted.

Now, you may respond saying, "You argue a straw-man's argument that could apply to anything. You could say 'can you prove that there was NOT extra-terrestrial involvement in [any wikipedia-recorded event]? No? Then that should be added to the page'". This is not what I'm doing at all. I am talking about legitimate possibilities that arise from legitimate sources, e.g. news reports and witnesses. When you have the same reports from multiple witnesses saying they heard explosions, that should be accounted (not to be confused with "stated as truth"). If you discredit and leave out a direct eye witness who may raise questions conflicting with the "reliable" source of the LAPD, you are showing bias to the latter. When you discredit and leave out multiple sources that should for no reason be considered unreliable, which say that the automation system of the Mercedes that Hastings crashed in could be hacked, you are again showing bias in favor of the LAPD's story.

I just saw your discussion of neutrality on the World Trade Center 7 topic on this page. The fact is, Wikipedia is not wholly neutral, or the 9/11 page, and many others, would be much different.

Atlos256 (talk) 16:26, 10 July 2013 (UTC)Atlos256

Nobody seems to notice that I began the discussion by saying that I find Hastings' death suspicious myself. This is why I started watching the page. However, I am a skeptic first, and having dealt with many conspiracy theories in the past, I recognize the patterns of those who unduly wish to promote them on Wikipedia, and I tend to resist these efforts. This seems to be the way things work on Wikipedia; it isn't a very friendly place for conspiracy theorists. No, skepticism against the LAPD does not appear to be warranted at this time. I am talking about skepticism against conspiracy theorists who promote their narratives that have been invented out of whole cloth, via cherry-picked information that they unilaterally deem as "evidence" of a nefarious act (witnesses reported hearing an explosion...the fire was burning too hot...the LAPD covered the car with a sheet so they must be hiding something..."simple physics" says an engine could not be thrown so far etc. etc.) -- something that is inappropriate on Wikipedia, and generally, a really bad idea in life. -Jordgette [talk] 19:32, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Your opinion is needed in this discussion on Talk:Zeitgeist: The Movie[edit]

Hi. Two editors are advocating for the exclusion of any mention in the Zeitgeist: The Movie article that Peter Joseph, the creator of that film has stated publicly that words attributed to him in a story cited as a source in the article misquoted him, and that he has not distanced himself from the ideas expressed in that film, as that cited source indicates. I have responded to their arguments, but neither of them has responded directly to my counterarguments, but simply repeat the same statements of theirs over and over. Myself and one other editor disagree with them, so two editors are for the material's inclusion, and two are for its exclusion, with no sign of consensus in sight. Can you please offer your viewpoint in the discussion so that we can achieve consensus? Thanks. Nightscream (talk) 01:17, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Nice job[edit]

I have to say that this is a pretty damn good edit. Too often people in your position will just delete material instead of doing the necessary research and adding other notable POV. Good work. Viriditas (talk) 03:00, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Even though I still don't feel like Clarke's quote is truly significant to the story, it is everywhere. So I thought I'd add rather than subtract. -Jordgette [talk] 04:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Five[edit]

Hi... you might be interested in this - Cheers. - DVdm (talk) 08:59, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Brady Bunch.[edit]

Regarding your edit on the Brady Bunch article, "old style family sitcom" basically means a clean, G-rated, family friendly sitcom. Kind of like Leave it to Beaver or the Andy Griffith Show. Those kind of shows went out of vogue in the 70s with the advent of more mature, adult-oriented sitcoms like All in the Family, M*A*S*H* and the like.

Vjmlhds (talk) 21:00, 3 June 2014 (UTC)