User talk:JorisvS

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Contents

Saturated model[edit]

I put a note at WT:WPM asking if anyone knows anything about the concept of saturated models that you were looking for, and would be interested in writing it up. --Trovatore (talk) 00:04, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Restructuring of phonological charts[edit]

Greetings once again, JorisvS! I have noticed that you have been restructuring some of the phonological charts I have been creating. I was just wondering why you are restructuring them in that way, why that order in the manner of articulation? Personally, I followed the layout put forth in the International Phonetic Alphabet (2005) as published by the International Phonetic Association, with slight changes, but if your order is based on something else, I would love to see it. Pure interest. -- Llonydd (talk) 18:16, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

First, I'd like to mention that when the restructuring is complete, it will nearly have the layout given in that chart, much more than it has now or than it had. The reason I put the nasals above the plosives is that the plosives-affricates-fricatives make such a fitting order and the nasals are, like plosives, stops (also, it's good to notice that the affricates don't appear in the IPA chart at all). The tables on the Archi language and Avar language pages give examples of the endresult. --JorisvS (talk) 18:28, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Well, not really. It seems both the old and to-be versions of the table follow the IPA chart just as much (or just as little, as the chart is very basic). The endresult will, however, be more in line with the typical consonant table I've come across here at Wikipedia, thus making it a little easier to interpret for people used to reading those tables. --JorisvS (talk) 23:04, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your answer. But well, I really think there should be agreed upon one single standard here on Wikipedia. There are so many different orders, and some of the phonological charts also use very old terminology. -- Llonydd (talk) 05:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, quite a number of chart layouts can be found here. And that's why, at least every here and there, I've been bringing them in line with this 'typical' outline I showed you. And certainly, those old terminologies should go, they're rather bothersome/confusing. You're welcome to help! --JorisvS (talk) 09:53, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
In the past, I've also gone through Wikipedia articles to bring them in line with some standard or other. In the process, I've met with occasional resistance in such a way that I don't believe we can have one rigidly imposed standard. For example, I typically prefer nasals to be above plosives, though it may be more important to indicate their patterning with other sonorants. At Swedish phonology, the chart has approximants between plosives and fricatives presumably because it then allows a quick visual representation of voiced plosive lenition. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 06:54, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, in such cases this indeed seems better, as then such phenomena can then be indicated easily. We can't be rigid when pragmatics point to a somewhat different ordering. --JorisvS (talk) 12:29, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Administrative evil[edit]

If it's a term that's basically been coined and defined by a single book, then it's likely a neologism, which isn't an appropriate subject for a Wikipedia article. You would really need to provide sources showing that this term is in wider use beyond just the one book. NawlinWiki (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

See WP:RS and WP:N. NawlinWiki (talk) 19:12, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Mhm, well, it sounds like "However, audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable third-party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable source" [italics mine] is the case: both Harvard and Zimbardo are quite reputable, I'd say [1] (that's actually the way I got learned of the concept).

Though, admittedly, maybe I didn't do my homework quite at the right time, but a little googling turned up 21.500 hits, including the following (though I don't have time for a more thorough search right now), including a number by the same authors, but published in various locations that should be reputable.

So, a quick and scanty search points to an already much broader use of the term. So it might be best to give it at least the benefit of the doubt. I'll look more closely at it later.--JorisvS (talk) 19:51, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm jumping in the middle here, but I saw the discussion and thought I'd add my 2¢ worth. A quick review of the links provided shows that the term "administrative evil" has been coined and promulgated by Adams and Balfour, the authors of the book cited in the article. Four of the six articles above relate directly to Adams in various publications and seminars. The other two links refer to reviews (and dismissals) of Adams' and Balfour's thesis. I'm not sure this qualifies as giving the neologism "widespread use". WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Well, as I said, there's also more to look at on Google (which I still have to do). But it is an interesting question what "widespread use" exactly means, when exactly is it that sufficient people have caught up the term? (Because in this case other authors have caught up the term, but (probably) still in reaction to the original authors.)
Also, I found the {{notability}} tag. Couldn't this be a better tag, at least for the time being, per the text on WP:N? --JorisvS (talk) 11:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

(In general) It would have been nice if we could've had a decent discussion about eachother's arguments to at least come to an understanding thereof. Now it was simply "look here, then it's self-evident", even though it doesn't make it self-evident. Also, to bluntly ignore requests for a more proper explanation of one's arguments is simply rude, no matter one's edit count. I hope next time there can be decent discussion. --JorisvS (talk) 14:06, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Laki language[edit]

Thank you for cleaning this article, but Laki is not a language. According to Ethnologue and Britannica it is a subdialect of Kurdish language. --Calak1988 (talk) 18:56, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the situation is a little more complex than that. First of all, yes, Britannica indeed states it to be a subdialect of Kurdish, however, without it telling about the Kurdish dialect it is supposed to be a subdialect of; without, in fact, telling much about Kurdish at all, so we can't learn much more than that it does say that.
When we look at Ethnologue we can learn a bit more, though. It does not classify Laki as a dialect (let alone a subdialect) of Kurdish, merely as Kurdish. The difference is at first subtle: as Ethnologue does not explicitly state it to be a language or a dialect within Kurdish it could be either, but when we look at the other members of Kurdish that Ethnologue gives, we see those (Northern, Central, and Southern) classified as members of the macrolanguage Kurdish. Ethnologue only classifies languages as members of a macrolanguage when its members are typically considered (e.g. politically or socially) dialects of a unified language that, in fact, lack sufficient mutual intelligibility, and thus, scientifically, should be considered separate languages. --JorisvS (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
On the Kurdish language page the following can be read:
"Since 1932 most Kurds have used the Roman script to write Kurmanji.... Sorani is normally written in an adapted form of the Arabic script.... Reasons for describing Kurmanji and Sorani as 'dialects' of one language are their common origin and the fact that this usage reflects the sense of ethnic identity and unity among the Kurds. From a linguistic or at least a grammatical point of view, however, Kurmanji and Sorani differ as much from each other as English and German, and it would seem appropriate to refer to them as languages. For example, Sorani has neither gender nor case-endings, whereas Kurmanji has both.... Differences in vocabulary and pronunciation are not as great as between German and English, but they are still considerable." (italics, wikilinks, and bold type mine).
I must make one comment, though: Using a common origin as a reason for considering varieties dialects is bullshit, for then English, Russian, Greek, Persian, Hindi, and of course Kurdish itself should all be considered dialects of the same Indo-European language, which is, of course, nonsense. --JorisvS (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your comment, dear. Good luck! --Calak1988 (talk) 13:58, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Not a problem, happy to help clarify things. --JorisvS (talk) 11:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Changing redirects[edit]

Hello JorisvS, thanks for your contributions. By the way, regarding edits like this, I should point out that there is usually no need to change links from redirects to direct links. Thanks, rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Swadesh list of Tsezic languages[edit]

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An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Swadesh list of Tsezic languages. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Wikipedia:Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion(s) by adding your comments to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Swadesh list of Tsezic languages. Please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

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Tibetan language[edit]

You reverted my deletion of insignificant link from Tibetan language article with an unfriendly comment. Please don't behave like that. It's not an issue of liking or not at all. If we add a link to every country where Tibetan is spoken, then we'll have to add India too. Gantuya eng (talk) 08:41, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Please don't take such offense, that wasn't intended. Your first edit summary was rather opaque, and could've meant any number of things; for quite a number of people it may well be an issue of liking. If you have good reasons for removing it, no problem. But that is the question: is it really insignificant? Okay, it stands out, doesn't necessarily have to be bad; it wouldn't really stand out in the current version, though. I don't think clear inclusion criteria were used; adding also languages of Nepal and India could be argued. Do you want to discuss it? --JorisvS (talk) 09:17, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian[edit]

Hi Joris,

You might be interested to keep an eye on South Slavic languages as well. Same issue with deleting SC going on there. — kwami (talk) 17:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for pointing out. --JorisvS (talk) 19:02, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Substing Welcome Templates[edit]

Just a quick note, can you make sure you subst welcome templates when you add them to a users talk page? Thanks =] ·Add§hore· Talk To Me! 18:58, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of its "special way". No problem next time. --JorisvS (talk) 19:49, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi, would you be so kind as to give us support![edit]



Hello, I hope you are doing fine and I sincerely apologize for this intrusion. I have just read your profile and you seem a very learned person and interested in (small) languages and cultures so maybe I am not bothering you and you will help us... I'm a member of an association "Amical de la Viquipèdia" which is trying to get some recognition as a Catalan Chapter but this has not been approved up to this moment because it does not belong to one state. We would appreciate your support, visible if you stick this on your first page: Wikimedia CAT. Thanks again, wishing you a great summer, take care! Capsot (talk) 10:17, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't quite get the (non-)existence of some chapters, but especially don't get this "because it does not belong to one state" thing, so:
--JorisvS (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


Well, thanks a lot, if you ever need something from me about Occitan, Catalan or else, just let me know I'll be glad to help the best I can, best regards! Claudi Balaguer/Capsot (talk) 07:20, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer[edit]

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Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

For the guideline on reviewing, see Wikipedia:Reviewing. Being granted reviewer rights doesn't change how you can edit articles even with pending changes. The general help page on pending changes can be found here, and the general policy for the trial can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. —DoRD (talk) 14:11, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Croatian grammar[edit]

Hi,

Just a heads-up for Croatian grammar. Several-month-long discussion on merging this with Serbian grammar and Serbian and Croatian grammar/Serbo-Croatian grammar (the latter probably best because Bosnian and Montenegrin redirect there too), with notices given at the languages wikiproject. However, Croatian grammar keeps getting reverted into a content fork, with the argument that it isn't a fork if you give it a different name. I made a stub of what I thought it would be that wouldn't be a fork, but that gets reverted too. I don't really care, though, if it's s.t. along those lines (itself really just a sop and probably mergeable into Croatian language) or a rd. as people had originally agreed. — kwami (talk) 20:19, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

All right, but, ehm, what do you like me to do? --JorisvS (talk) 15:07, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Whatever you think is appropriate. IMO, the more reasonable voices the better. I've gone back to making it a redirect, as my attempts at creating a non-forked article have been rejected, but there may be other decent approaches. — kwami (talk) 20:55, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Breton language[edit]

Hi Joris,

Can you translate a short phrase into English for me, please? It says 'Breiz da Virviken Bretagne'. I am going to use it in an article about Breton philately. Thank you, --Michael Romanov (talk) 00:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

How come you ask me? I don't speak Breton, nor have I implied such anywhere. --JorisvS (talk) 09:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I believe Breiz da Virviken is "Brittany for Ever". The root is birviken (or just biken); the bv after da "to". Bretagne is just French. — kwami (talk) 23:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I couldn't find birviken at Wiktionary; I'm wondering though, Wiktionary says that biken means "never". --JorisvS (talk) 11:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, literally "until never" = forever, like French à jamais. — kwami (talk) 11:23, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Right...--JorisvS (talk) 11:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
(I think that's just due to English having contracted ne (not) ever into never, whereas that hasn't happened in French, and I suspect in Breton, so that biken / jamais "ever" is colloquially used without the "not" to mean "never", and dictionaries commonly translate it that way. Doesn't correspond to English too well either way.) — kwami (talk) 02:14, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Ventureño article[edit]

Thanks very much for helping clean up the Ventureño language article. May I ask that you please remake separate columns for palatal and post-alveolar places of articulation? Every Chumashist (including myself) treats the places of articulation as non-interchangeable. I've been studying the language over 5 years now at a major research university, and I agree with the other Chumashists: different columns.

I'll apologize in advance if this seems overly-detailed, but it is important to accurately represent the language. And I do appreciate all the help in cleaning things up and making the article look just spectacular. I would like to include orthographic symbols next to the IPA characters, and would very much welcome help with that if you would like to assist further on the article. Alaquwel (talk) 07:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Question: why are they so distinct when there is no contrast between sounds of these two different articulatory places? --JorisvS (talk) 10:04, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
First, because the difference between a palatal fricative and a post-alveolar one is audibly different. Take for example English: while we have no phonemic palatal fricative no linguist (or very few) will argue that a palatal fricative and the post-alveolar are interchangeable in the language. Second, because the velar fricative can have realizations that range from the palatal to the uvular in Ventureño. If there were a palatal realization of a fricative in Ventureño, it would be an allophone of the velar fricative, not the post-alveolar. Along those lines, if the reasoning between combining post-alveolar and palatal places or articulation is one of economy, then I'm not sure how one could tell whether to combine those two places or articulation, or the palatal and velar places of articulation. There are other reasons to separate the two places of articulation, such as considering the interplay between alveolar and post-alveolar positions of articulation in sibilant harmony, but these reasons are more complex. Finally, I think it's also worth considering that Drs. Kathryn Klar, Suzanne Wash, Tsuyoshi Ono, Richard Applegate, Kenneth Whistler, and Marianne Mithun all treat the post-alveolar and palatal places of articulation as non-interchangable. I hope you can see that much thought from multiple, very qualified linguists has gone into why the palatal position should stand on its own. Alaquwel (talk) 02:55, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
That there is a palatal allophone of the velar fricative is a good point, and should be properly noted in the article; as for invoking authority: that is not an argument, not even a weak one, and merely detracts from the good points. I believe a phonetic postalveolar approximant [ʒ˕] will often (in many languages) be interpreted as phonemic /j/, something that definitely cannot be said for the fricatives. I don't know about this in the Ventureño case, though.
Please, tell me more about these more complex reasons. --JorisvS (talk) 11:00, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Hi JorisvS,
I think you're confusing a specific view of language, one that views parsimony as an end in itself, with language documentation. These places of articulation are distinct in the world's languages; there is no disputing this. Whether or not SOME linguistic frameworks choose to ignore typology and focus on the most elegant reduction of a given language's sounds to the fewest number of phonemic contrasts, it is still true that this language has a palatal approximant that is (was) produced at the palatal place of articulation. The postalveolar sounds, on the other hand, were not so produced. If you collapse them, you are injecting original research (in this case erroneous research) into an article that is otherwise based on the accepted work of real field linguists. Deseretian (talk) 18:09, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm not confusing anything. Parsimony, Occam's razor, is central to science. That is not equal to saying typological concerns are irrelevant, quite on the contrary. I've seen Alaquwel give good arguments for a split of the two columns. What I don't understand is why you (both) don't add this information to the article itself instead of complaining (I expect that you have sources for these).
Yes, within the languages of the world these two articulations are distinct. English itself makes a distinction for some, with [ç] for /hj/. That the distinction is relevant for some languages doesn't mean, however, that we must make this distinction for all. Also, I have nowhere denied the existence of a palatal approximant /j/, merely changed the presentation.
Furthermore, concise presentation is not, in and by itself, OR. If some author very lengthily explains something there is no need for us to do the same here, we merely shouldn't draw conclusions or make inferences the author(s) do(es)n't (which I haven't). --JorisvS (talk) 12:16, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry JorisvS, but I (or the expert contributor) need not defend what is known: Language X (in this case Ventureno) has consonants at Y places of articulation. For you to go beyond that simple fact without expert reference does constitute OR. And a concise presentation is not the same as confusing (or collapsing, merging, etc.) distinct things, in this case places of articulation, in an effort to further a view of language which you hold. Your statement that 'parsimony is central to science' is largely meaningless, but it reveals that you are injecting your interpretation of linguistics into an article written by an actual expert in the language. There is no consensus among linguists regarding the role of reductionism in the representation of language. And, it should be noted, the current work on Ventureno takes a specific methodological stand regarding the most appropriate representation of the language, one that includes overt marking of the voiceless lateral despite there being reasons to collapse it, as a phoneme, with the voiced lateral. Also, what has the user (of Wikipedia) gained through your confusion of different places of articulation? The table takes up the same space, and the reader must view the same number of symbols in either case. The only difference that I can see between your incorrectly merged table and that of the Ventureno expert is that yours incorrectly teaches a Wikipedia user that the voiceless postalveolar sibilant fricative of Ventureno is palatal, which is not true phonetically or phonologically. Please stop injecting your biases into language articles for which you are not prepared (by education or otherwise) to add anything meaningful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deseretian (talkcontribs) 22:17, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

"Please stop injecting"? Seriously? As if I have even made more than this one edit like the one you dispute. And apparently you know something about my motives that I don't...that I was (am?) trying to further my own views on language.
You keep telling me that I am disputing that Ventureño's /ʃ/ is post-alveolar and that its /j/ is palatal, again something I am quite unaware of. Whether you find the presentation confusing (yes, among other things) is a whole other matter.
"'Parsimony is central to science' is largely meaningless". Would you care to elaborate on your thoughts behind this? --JorisvS (talk) 23:11, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Admiralty Islands languages[edit]

A request for move has been initiated at Admiralty Island languages. --Taivo (talk) 13:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Notice of Arbitration Decision[edit]

Nuvola apps important.svg The Arbitration Committee has permitted administrators to impose, at their own discretion, sanctions on any editor working on pages broadly related to the Balkans if the editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. If you engage in further inappropriate behavior in this area, you may be placed under sanctions including blocks, a revert limitation or an article ban. The committee's full decision can be read at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Final decision. Courcelles 23:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

That may be a formality (it's an automated text), as I don't recall anything inappropriate.
Just my two bits for anyone reading, Jorisv has been a breath of sanity in some rather contentious debates. — kwami (talk) 01:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
I hate that the template says "Further inappropriate behaviour", as sometimes these notices are left without actually accusing anyone of wrongdoing. Courcelles 01:30, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Chamalal people[edit]

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A tag has been placed on Chamalal people requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a very short article providing little or no context to the reader. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content. You may wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag - if no such tag exists then the page is no longer a speedy delete candidate and adding a hangon tag is unnecessary), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. Inka 888 22:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

The article now has more context, so no longer qualifies under WP:CSD#A1. --JorisvS (talk) 22:42, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Nederlands-Limburg[edit]

Joris,
Please learn the rules before incorrectly marking something as 'incorrect'... - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 16:49, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

It seems I misread it back then. Anyway, a little friendlier notice would be much appreciated (or, well, something that cannot be (mis)construed as offhand); remember we're only human... As a sidenote, notice the space that shouldn't have been there (which, when I think about it, may well have been the reason I misread it)? --JorisvS (talk) 19:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Change in English[edit]

I noticed in this edit on Slavic languages [2] that you changed the word "neighbouring" to "neighboring". Was this done for a specific reason? As far as I know, this stuff shouldn't be changed from what was already there, but please educate me on the style guide if I am wrong! Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:28, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, mere consistency: the rest (of the section at least) already used "neighboring". --JorisvS (talk) 13:40, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Okay, got it! I wonder how they ended up different. The original usage should be the one currently used right? Anyway, on another note, could you quickly elucidate on how Serbian/Croatian are considered one language, but Macedonian/Bulgarian are not? I always thought they had the same similarities. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:08, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, as far as I know, the differences between standard Macedonian and Bulgarian are considerably larger than those between the various standards of Serbo-Croatian; all SC standards being based on the same (sub)dialect, while Macedonian and Bulgarian are based on different dialects. This would make the differences between Macedonian and Bulgarian more comparable to those between Štokavian and e.g. Čakavian. Were standard Croatian based not on Štokavian but on Čakavian, I think most people would accept Croatian and Serbian as being different languages. I know that Macedonian and Bulgarian are often claimed to be mutually intelligible, but I have yet to see anything more substantial about this than the mere claim. In general, claims of mutual intelligibility often vary, sometimes even being based on rough recognizability or something, making me quite skeptical of such mere, unsubstantiated claims. --JorisvS (talk) 16:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Translation[edit]

Please, translate this text: Զյիշատակ Ազիզ տիկնոջդաւ Թիլուսիկ կոյլաւեան ծնունդ մհի պաղտասարի ամուսնացեալ'ի Պօթշան ընկա՛լո՛վ տէր եկեղեցի քո հոմորի նորափայլ. Cezarika1 (talk) 05:46, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Why do you ask me? The best I can do is see that it's Armenian. Nowhere I have implied I speak Armenian. --JorisvS (talk) 16:59, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Croatian II[edit]

I'd be a bit careful of 3RR at Croatian, given the history of some of the editors. Esp. if no-one's accepted the edit. There are a couple others of us who can take up the slack, and if it keeps up for long we can notify ARBMAC. — kwami (talk) 10:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I kept 3RR in mind, though yes, it could indeed be a good idea to wait as long as it's not yet accepted by someone. Let's see where it goes this time. --JorisvS (talk) 10:30, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
PS. Love the translation requests. I have some Kalaallisut maybe you could take care of for me? — kwami (talk) 10:34, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

October 2010[edit]

Nuvola apps important.svg You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users who edit disruptively or refuse to collaborate with others may be blocked if they continue. In particular the three-revert rule states that making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period is almost always grounds for an immediate block. If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the talk page to discuss controversial changes. Work towards wording and content that gains consensus among editors. If unsuccessful then do not edit war even if you believe you are right. Post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If edit warring continues, you may be blocked from editing without further notice.
3RR in less than 24h on the article Croatian language. 14:40 3 Oct [3], 16:44 3 Oct [4], 12:15 4 Oct [5]. Kubura (talk) 04:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I got one of these, too. It's hilarious. --Taivo (talk) 16:21, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I know. I've been laughing too.;) --JorisvS (talk) 16:47, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Please, take the message seriously. Wikipedia is supposed to be serious project, not a mocking ground. Kubura (talk) 00:30, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I would if you would have. Your motivation for putting this here is all too clear and the one you put on Taivo's page really made me L-O-oh-so-L. 3RR in 27h? Right. --JorisvS (talk) 14:27, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
You probably didn't see this howler, JorisvS. 2 reverts in 28 minutes.
Have you stopped laughing yet? --Taivo (talk) 14:35, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure. In any case, while I did stop (though it took some time), I now started really -O-L again...these are really too funny. --JorisvS (talk) 14:42, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


I'd take out your response in the RfC. It was closed and shouldn't really be modified. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

And Mir Harven's... Problem is we were still discussing there while someone just closed that, and I can't just not respond because someone decided to put a box around it. If you know how to take it out without disrupting understanding of the string of posts, then I'd appreciate it. --JorisvS (talk) 14:30, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
I've seen them moved to the bottom out of the box, but within the same heading, although I'm not sure that's standard practise. I alerted the closer to Mir Haven's insertion at User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise#Croatian RfC note, so you may want to ask them. Sorry can't help more. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Notice of WP:ARBMAC[edit]

Please note that the article Croatian language and other articles relating to the Balkans fall under the ruling of WP:ARBMAC. Note in particular Wikipedia:ARBMAC#Discretionary sanctions, which states

"Any uninvolved administrator may, on their own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if that editor fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, the expected standards of behavior, or the normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; restrictions on reverts; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to this decision."

Repeated blanket reversions, repeatedly and knowingly restoring material with large amounts of poor English and grammatical errors, and repeated introduction of material rejected by consensus all fall below the expected standards of behaviour at this project. Kubura (talk) 23:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Science and Croatian[edit]

Your recent post at Talk:Croatian language has me wondering about how hard we can be with social sciences like linguistics, particularly in the language-dialect divide. Kwami has called Croatian a "language in the sociolinguistic sense" but this is only to point out that there are multiple perspectives on this issue. Greenburg provides 5 perspectives:

  1. political
  2. functional/cultural
  3. historical
  4. structural
  5. beliefs

Although from your structural (4) perspective, Croatian is just part of a larger language that many call Serbo-Croatian, how is using this perspective to answer the language-dialect question objective? Not only is the mutual intelligibility issue problematic in itself (What percentage of unintelligibility is too unintelligible? Does grammar determine intelligibility or does lexicon/phonology? What discourse situations are relevant to the question of intelligibility? What about differences that don't factor into intelligibility?), but the structural perspective seems reminiscent of the scientistic typological definition of race that attempted to use science to reinforce what we now see as a cultural construct. In other words, how are the other perspectives irrelevant? — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 04:13, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit pressed for time in RL right now. I'll get back to you later. --JorisvS (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
Quite on the contrary, it is very much the opposite of trying to use science to reinforce cultural constructs. While people often try to purport their cultural notions as "scientific", these typically break down when they are investigated truly scientifically. Phrenology, racism, creation 'science', or Croatian as a language separate from e.g. Serbian, to name a few.
All these perspectives you've mentioned are valid subjects for research, but mixing them up only confuses things. How about mixing in some political or historical views into personality traits, group dynamics, or General Relativity? These issues surrounding mutual intelligibility are good points, but the only way out is through scientific scrutiny of these problems (including a descent amount of experimentation), not mixing in some politics.
I'm happy to elaborate further on this if you wish. --JorisvS (talk) 22:41, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, please do. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 04:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Croatian is not a separate dialect from Serbian. It isn't even a separate accent. What we have here are separate registers and standards. These are, of course, legitimate differences, they just aren't dialectologically based. The structural differences come from (1) language planning, (2) ethnically based education, and (3) religiously and culturally (historically) based vocabulary. (At least that I'm aware of.) — kwami (talk) 06:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Croatian as a sociolinguistic language[edit]

With all this edit warring on the lead, I thought it'd be useful to have a section in the article on the social language vs the linguistic language. Please take a look at User:Chipmunkdavis/Sandbox, and feel free to edit it if you can, it's quite bad now. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 00:39, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Certainly useful, it wouldn't be complete without one. The sentence "However, purely linguistic considerations can be 'outranked' by sociopolitical criteria, so that speech systems which are mutually intelligible have been designated as separate languages" is false. The only useful (I can't say 'valid') use of sociopolitical criteria for this is when purely linguistic evidence is (presently) ambiguous. Linguistic considerations are extremely unequivocal in the case of Croatian. While from a sociological perspective (sociolinguistics) Croatian can definitely be considered a language, structurally there is no ambiguity over its membership of the linguistic unity called Serbo-Croatian. I am at present not certain as how to rephrase it, though. I'll put this on the associated talk page too. --JorisvS (talk) 11:53, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Might you be interesting in helping here?[edit]

I have a list for the whole Nakh-Dagestanian family, with Hurrian and Urartian included (as Starostin and others suggested) in my user pages... here User:Yalens/Swadesh_List_of_Nakho-Dagestani_languages. Since you made the Lezgic and Avar-Andic lists, might you be interested in helping? --Yalens (talk) 02:52, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

In principle I would, but I don't know how much time I will have to invest in it (way too many things to do in RL). We'll see how it goes. --JorisvS (talk) 09:13, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Austronesian Basic Vocabulary Database[edit]

Hi JorisvS, thanks for your question. The ABVD analysis has serious flaws, and is highly controversial among comparative linguists. For one thing, it is exclusively based on the lexicon (flaw #1), and even more narrowly, on 200 lexical items (flaw #2), paying no attention to sound change or to morphosyntax. Secondly, and that's a serious problem, it does not distinguish between shared retention and shared innovations (flaw #3), which is a pillar of the comparative method. I could go on and on, but others have done so in publications. Such studies are done by people (whom I know and respect) who have great mathematical knowledge, but little experience in studying the languages themselves, or on processes of language change. I think it's perfectly OK that such studies exist and are cited, as a valuable contribution to the field. However, it is not OK to erase a century of careful subgrouping studies and scholarship (synthesised in Lynch, Ross & Crowley 2002), and invent some so-called "subgroups" (like "Vanuatu" or "Tonga-Samoa", etc.). which have never been supported by more careful methods. The problem is that all Wikipedia entries for Oceanic languages have been entirely rewritten based on this single study, with no room left for the more widely accepted subgroups; that is scary, and unacademic. The risk is to let oneself easily impressed by the nice graphics, or the figures (like the magic "100% support") and rewrite entire language family trees, while forgetting the flawed assumptions that underlie these computational models in the first place. A bit more caution should be exercised here, otherwise we are feeding the (sometimes legitimate) criticism about Wikipedia itself, and its unreliability. Best, Womtelo (talk) 23:46, 25 November 2010 (UTC).

Croatian language article[edit]

I saw your participation in the Croatian language article and thought that you would be interested in this: [6] -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 12:01, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. --JorisvS (talk) 14:59, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

You may read this to get what is a sub-sub-subdialect[edit]

http://books.google.com.hk/books?id=u7MLAQAAMAAJ&q=isbn:3895862118&dq=isbn:3895862118&hl=zh-CN&ei=mD4sTYmwJIuSuwP5neHBCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA

Grts. ––虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 11:28, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

That's not the point, I understand full well what such is, by its definition. The talk of "sub-sub-(sub)"dialects makes it really hard to keep track of what is said/written.
Further points:
  1. talk of a "first (sub)dialect" is nonsensical: dialects have no order.
  2. By the definition of the words 'language' and 'dialect' considering varieties that are not fully mutually intelligible not just dialects, but sub-sub-subdialects cannot be but politically motivated.
  3. "a Chuanqiandian subsubdialect of a Chuanqiandian subdialect of a Chuanqiandian dialect" is totally nonsensical language.
For these (and more) reasons I changed or tagged some of it, in the hopes of getting more explanation and less language gymnastics, hoping to get a grip of what was meant to be said. --JorisvS (talk) 11:45, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
In Chinese, it's called tuyu and ci-tuyu (sub-tuyu). The using of "sub-sub" is origined from the book ISBN3895862118. ––虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 11:56, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
By its definition, a tuyu is - a patois/lect. ––虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 11:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Read it and you'll know why. Even though it's written in French, the list in the book can be easily understood. ––虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 11:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

For example, say:
  • Miao yu
    1. Chuanqiandian fangyan
      1. Chuanqiandian cifangyan (Hmong)
        1. First tuyu
          1. Hmong Daw cituyu
          2. Hmong Njua cituyu
          3. Hmong Len cituyu
          4. etc.
        2. Second tuyu
      2. Diandongbei cifangyan (ab Hmaob)
      3. etc.
    2. Qiandong fangyan
      1. etc.
    3. Xiangxi fangyan
        1. Western tuyu
          1. First cituyu
          2. 2nd cituyu
          3. 3rd cituyu
        2. Eastern tuyu
          1. etc.

––虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 12:04, 11 January 2011 (UTC)



Instead of addressing my objections, you state what these are called in XX language. Please address the objections, instead of playing a what-are-they-called-in-XX game. (Also, the book won't open for me, please try to provide direct links, and preferably ones I can open) --JorisvS (talk) 12:14, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the issue here is that Chuanqiandian subdialect is a proper subset of Chuanqiandian dialect, which in turn is a proper subset of Miao language. When you changed Chuanqiandian subdialect to Chuanqiandian dialect, you mischanged the size of the category. ––虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 15:13, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
The concept of Hmong language outside China is the first tuyu of Chuanqiandian subdialect. If you changed it to first tuyu of Chuanqiandian dialect, the issue is: there're several subdialect of Chuanqiandian dialect, and each of them have one or more tuyu (a.k.a. sub-subdialect), so it won't be clear which tuyu is the exact tuyu you want to mention by saying “first tuyu”. ––虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 15:20, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

On the origin of the word Gheg[edit]

I believe that the hypothesis of the Albanian erudite Pashko Vasa is based on a written source and per this reason let to the author of the section the time and the right to find it. I looked on the web for a short time myself but couldn't find a proper citation of it, except for some vague material. Anyway maybe somebody has a written book or some proper source for it. Therefore I hope you comprehend my removal. With all due respect, Empathictrust (talk) 17:08, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I do, I hadn't seen that these tags were added so recently. There are other concerns, though: Whether some 19th-century guy believed this vs. whether this can reasonably be assumed to be correct (or rather: are there important dissenting viewz etc.?). Doubting the latter is easy, making presenting only this hypothesis POV. But I only thought of this just now. --JorisvS (talk) 18:55, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

South Caucasian languages[edit]

Copied from User talk:ComtesseDeMingrelie#South Caucasian languages

You don't get it, do you?

  • a) You don't copy-paste articles when moving them. This way it messes up the article history and the associated talk page's location.
  • b) The "discussion" there isn't even a discussion and is super-old.
  • c) The first move could be considered to fall under WP:BOLD, but now it is contested you don't just redo it, but discuss it!

Does this make it clear? --JorisvS (talk) 18:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

If my move was done badly, you do it correctly. Blank-reverting every single change I made is an easy way out and I do not agree with it. I tried to move the page as I usually do but it did not let me, this is why I had to do it manually. I did not start playing with wikipedia a couple of days ago.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 18:12, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
So you copy-paste it?? No, you engage in a move discussion, and if then there forms a consensus to move it an administrator will execute the move. And I'm contesting the move, so I restore the stable version, not "do it correctly". You don't just redo a move away from a stable version twice when contested, so cut the crap and DISCUSS! By moving the page this way, and a full three times, you sure make it look like you've "just started playing with Wikipedia". --JorisvS (talk) 18:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Being unhappy with the move DOES NOT WARRANT the removal of legitimate edits. Do not just CLICK THE BUTTON to revert. I demand that you restore all other changes that did not involve the move/renaming.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 18:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Demand?? I'm clicking the undo button because I'm restoring (reverting to!) the stable version, that's what the button is for. And if you request a move, you don't re-copy-paste-move it, you wait. --JorisvS (talk) 18:50, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Let me repeat it again. Whatever you think I did wrong by moving the page, removal of legitimate edits was unwarranted. End of the story.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 18:55, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Not true, they may have been good-faith, but good-faith edits may still be reverted when they're contested. And just answer here instead of my talk page. --JorisvS (talk) 19:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Of course, then your talk page will be clean while mine will be full of this filth, demonizing me while portraying yourself like an angel. When you reverted the changes, you mentioned that only the move/the method of moving was contested. If you contested the good-faith edits, you should have said that but you did not. You invented this now after realizing that doing the revert manually would represent an undue hardship for you.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 19:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
It should be crytal-clear from what I've said and one that it's contested, gee. And.. I'll copy it to my talk page if you'd like, but I do like to have the discussion in its entirety in one place. --JorisvS (talk) 19:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Please see my comments at Talk:South Caucasian languages#Requested move. Dpmuk (talk) 23:40, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Also please by aware of the 3RR rule - doing more than 3 reverts in 24 hours can get you blocked. Dpmuk (talk) 23:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I do not need to be reminded of that, thank you.--ComtesseDeMingrélie 08:27, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Greek gk[edit]

I was under the impression from WP:GREEK that an initial γκ should be transcribed as g. Per this edit. am I missing something? — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 21:25, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, there are several ways of transliterating Greek, see Romanization of Greek. And as I sort of explained in my edit summary transliterating it as <g> has [at least the potential] to create confusion, because the difference between [g] and [ɣ] is lost that way. It isn't really wrong either way, though. --JorisvS (talk) 21:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
Hmmm, we might want to do something about this at WP:GREEK, then. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 23:14, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
It's also good to keep in mind the difference between Ancient and Modern Greek. I've never seen e.g. Modern Greek ω transliterated as ō (but I don't dare to claim I've seen all). Also, WP:GREEK gives <y> as a possible transliteration of both <γ> and <υ>, which are quite distinct. And where did the remark about the diacritics come from? AFAIK one does not want to compromise precision when transliterating especially when completely unnecessary, which is precisely what happens when they are omitted. --JorisvS (talk) 23:24, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Autopatrolled[edit]

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If you have any questions about the permission, don't hesitate to ask. Otherwise, happy editing! Acalamari 15:11, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Luzon[edit]

The figure you removed was the total number of islands in the Philippines, so good removal, but when one discuses Luzon it could mean not only the island but also the political unit. I don't know how many islands there are in the unit, but it's definitely more than one. Hope that's useful, Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:35, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know. It would be better if these were covered at separate articles, less ambiguous at the very least. --JorisvS (talk) 15:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
I used to think like that, once thought of making a separate Hokkaido article, but in the end I couldn't justify the duplication of content to myself. In the end I figure if it covers a huge island then having small islands also included in the article wouldn't be very detrimental. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:07, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Well, if the geographical info in the article on the political unit is carefully kept to what's absolutely necessary (maybe a paragraph or two) and vice versa, it should be possible to have minimal content forking. I do concur, however, that having an article on the huge island cover also the small nearby islands wouldn't necessarily have to be very detrimental. In the case of Luzon, though, I'd say it would be best to have two articles, one on the island and one on the archipelago, and note that the latter is dominated by the former, keeping the info on the separate subjects as restricted to their respective articles as much as the situation allows. A lot of care would be needed to decide what info goes where, but it should be possible. --JorisvS (talk) 16:23, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Well, quite frankly Luzon (and for that matter most Philippine articles) doesn't really have enough information to make the split anyway. I think there's a case to be made though, for the idea in general. I think if it was done you'd have summary information in the political article, and have no main articles derived from it. Say you have Luzon (political unit), in the Geography section instead of {{Main|Geography of Luzon (political unit)}} you have {{Main|Geography of Luzon|Geography of Mindoro|etc.}} with Geography of Luzon focusing only on the island. On the other hand I think Politics of Luzon would have to be about the political unit, there being nothing special about the island. What would you say if someone proposed something similar to say Tasmania?

Interesting[edit]

It will be interesting to see your proof that van Reeland referred to the alleged Austronesian group. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 11:31, 4 April 2011 (UTC) See the Talk page of the article on Malagasy and give your quotation from van Reeland there before producing anachronisms. No one mentioned the alleged Austronesian before 1920. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.194.200 (talk) 11:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The source supports the wording I restored, not yours. Plus, Malagasy is not part of the Malayan languages. --JorisvS (talk) 12:37, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Request for comment[edit]

This message is being sent to you because you have previously edited the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) page. There is currently a discussion that may result in a significant change to Wikipedia policy. Specifically, a consensus is being sought on if the policies of WP:UCN and WP:EN continues to be working policies for naming biographical articles, or if such policies have been replaced by a new status quo. This discussion is on-going at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English), and your comments would be appreciated. Dolovis (talk) 17:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Shona Language[edit]

I am not a linguistic researcher, but I definitely know my language, my culture and my people much better than you do. Your claim that Manyika and Ndau are not part of Shona contradicts every text-book, that I have studied all the way tpsecondary school. Besides being a native Shona speaker I have studied Shona up to GCE Ordinary Level, and you know what, there is only one Shona examination right across the country . Besides that I am an ethnic Manyika and I am surprised that you are insisting that I am not a Shona speaker. Since you claim to the expert, can you tell me who is Shona. Do you even know where the word Shona comes from. Mind you all of us people now called Shona today did not call ourselves Shona just three generations back. Do you even know what the difference between say Zezuru and Manyika is amounts to. I can tell a Zezuru speaker apart from a Manyika speaker the moment they speak their first word even if they are speaking exactly the same word.

In academic terms I am to you what is called a raw source. Instead of trying to educate me on a system and language that I was born into, raised in you should be seeking to learn the intricacies from me. Manyika and Ndau are two of the five dialects of Shona the other three being Zezuru, Korekore and Karanga. Please don't tell me the authors of all Shona textbooks are wrong.

Mind you some of the names listed on Ethnologue are mere European mispronunciations of Shona names or Shona words spelt using Nguni syllables (Zulu, Xhosa, Swati, Ndebele). For examble Bazezuru should be vaZezuru. No such word as Bazezuru exists in any of the Shona dialects including Zezuru itself. I can easily pick up such inconsistencies. You can't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Punungwe (talkcontribs) 21:20, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

TNOs[edit]

FYI, I've tweaked your edit to standardize on British English ("colour") instead of the US "color". Thanks for catching the inconsistency; however, looking back through the article history, it appears to use British English from at least five years ago. Cheers. --Ckatzchatspy 19:46, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Please try to take care not to also revert some unrelated changes in the process. --JorisvS (talk) 23:03, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

East Franconian[edit]

Hi, in your latest edit of "East Franconian" You use an incorrect map. (Oberdeutsch 1945). German Wikipedia "Oberdeutsch" has a correct one: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Verbreitungsgebiet_der_oberdeutschen_Mundarten.PNG Nuremberg and it´s surroundings speak East Franconian, but Eisenach and surroundings don´t. For more information see also http://www.ostfraenkisches-woerterbuch.de/, a project of Bavarian Academy of Science, Mundartforschungsstelle. I´m not a linguist but east franconian "native speaker". Greetings Kleeblatt (talk) 12:48, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I merely found it and put it in because it's much more legible than the map that was already there. I suspect it's pretty easy to change the map I've put in the article to combine it with the one you've linked to. I could look at it this weekend. --JorisvS (talk) 12:54, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Alveolar trill in German[edit]

Hi, I added added two examples for the rolled r in Germany. The first word "Schmarrn" is a Bavarian dialect word, the second is normal German. I used both examples to show that even in High German in the final sound the rolled "r" is used e.g. in Swiss, parts of Austria, parts of Germany and South Tyrol. So I would suggest to have both examples. One for dialect and one for High German. --Buachamer (talk) 22:03, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that's possible, because, if I understand it correctly, Schmarrn would need to move to its own entry under (Austro-)Bavarian anyway. --JorisvS (talk) 22:11, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Votes and Votyaks[edit]

Do you think that all readers of Wikipedia fully understand the difference between Votes and Votyaks? Or between the Votic language (водь, водский язык, т.ж. Водская, но и Вотская пятина!) and the Votyak language (воть, вотяки, отяки; вотский или вотяцкий язык). As far as I know, they are very often mixed up in consonance outside Russia. --Злобин П.С. (talk) 17:28, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

No. But when such a "not to be confused with ..." is necessary it should be a) at the top of the page (cf. the format at Kele language (New Guinea), and b) it should be clear why it is necessary. And Votyak as an alt name for Udmurt was (is) not mentioned in the article about it, making the comment come out of the blue. But I guess I may have been a bit lazy for not looking into it and trying to address these things myself. --JorisvS (talk) 17:45, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Béarnese dialect and Alexis Peyret[edit]

Hello, I saw your tag on this page and I tried to add Peyret's Cundes Biarnes edited in Argentina on French National library but it is rejected as a link. Do you know if any thing can be done about that. The link is http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k54303959.r=alexis+peyret.langFR. Best, --Lembeye (talk) 14:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Hello again, never mind, I don't know why, but now it the link is accepted. I took the ref request for Peyret because know it is linked to its argentine edition at the BNF. about Despourrins folk song I added two other sources. Could you please check and tell me you think about it? Many thanks, --Lembeye (talk) 16:19, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Poetry and literature are not really fields of interest of mine. I just came by, saw big claims, claims that need sourcing badly, and tagged them. I haven't looked at the references in much detail, but I seriously doubt that the Ligam-DiGam site could be a source for the claim "The main proponent of this view is Jean Lafitte, who publishes Ligam-DiGam.", because it would basically amount to someone self-proclaiming to be the 'main proponent' for something. As for the other sources, you could take a critical look at them and see whether they precisely claim what the sentence they're supposed to reference claims (only worded differently). --JorisvS (talk) 21:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Hello, I was only talking about Despourrins and Peyret, about literature and strong facts that happen more than a 100 years ago.
LigamDigam/Lafitte, from my point of view is clearly self advertizing. It is not easy for me to remove it (it is clearly what I would prefer and what I would recommend en eventually what I will do) since I am not on their side and they are part of a very polemical attitude againt anything including the word "occitan" and trying to demonstrate that Bearnese is part of gascon, both being completly separated from occitan. The paradox is that they gather with other groups of Langue d'oc (technically a synonym of Occitan)- especially in Provence -) in order to claim local norms of orthography. Best, --Lembeye (talk) 06:40, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
I've reworded the sentence about Lafitte to be more neutral, though it may still give him undue weight. I doubt that a link to a page with folksongs can reference "his poems are still Béarn's most emblemetic folk songs" (do they really claim there what we claim here?). Note also the part I have underscored here: "most emblemetic" is an extraordinary claim and very easily non-neutral, so would need very good referencing (though it is probably better to simply reword it). As my French is far from fluent, I can't really say much about the link to Peyret's poetry (currently ref number 5). I have done some more copy-editing and placed a few tags where I think the page could be expanded or improved. I couldn't find the sociolinguistic study myself, but maybe it's easier for you. --JorisvS (talk) 09:51, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Velar nasal in Portuguese[edit]

The velar nasal, as I wrote, exists in Portuguese loanwords. For example, merchanding. It changes most of the phonemes, but preserves the "-ng". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.32.149.191 (talk) 18:20, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

What's your source? If it's "personal experience", then that is original research and shouldn't be in Wikipedia. If not, please cite the source. Note that there is no mention whatsoever of such a phenomenon at Portuguese phonology, nor at Portuguese language. --JorisvS (talk) 21:23, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

New Page Patrol survey[edit]

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Thanks . . .[edit]

. . . for the Wikt link fix ("Vasconists"). I had done that before elsewhere, but for some reason I kept getting a "you can look this up in" box. Cheers -- Jo3sampl (talk) 19:10, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

ET life[edit]

Hi JorisvS, I almost made a mistake reverting your apparent correct edit in "ET life", luckily this didn’t happen. Even so, by some reason, I feel I should apologize to you. By the way, please let me explain other thing: As you obviously know, according to WP:ALSO: "See also can have links that may be useful for readers seeking to read as much about a topic as possible, including subjects only peripherally related to the one in question". In spite of all that, unfortunately there was an hidden and opposite opinion (completely biased and rude) to this policy in that section demanding what an editor could place there; and said again, unfortunately violating this WP:ALSO and NPOV. I removed that biased opinion and temporary replaced by an informative (and polite) alert (not really an opinion) that clarified these violations of wiki-policy. I myself intended erase it after a while; probably you did it too soon, but no problem. Academictask (talk) 22:33, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Apology accepted. Because the article covers ET life in popular culture, I couldn't disagree with (the spirit) of your edit. This also made any hidden comment obsolete (as it was rather lenghthy, I felt I had to characterize it somehow, though it wasn't simply some unfounded opinion piece; apologies on my part for that). Then I noticed that the See also section contained rather many links. So I decided to remove the links that were already present in the article (per the MoS). This just happened to include all those of the popular-culture part (after adding a few appropriate links to the article body). I understand how at first sight this must have appeared to you. --JorisvS (talk) 23:07, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:€2 Italy Torino Winter Olympics.jpg[edit]

⚠

Thanks for uploading File:€2 Italy Torino Winter Olympics.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 04:28, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

NASA are liars[edit]

It will be interesting to see you prove that NASA are lying and that Kepler never wrote in 1596 about the space between Mars and Jupiter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.109.117 (talk) 16:19, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

What are you talking about? --JorisvS (talk) 13:41, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian[edit]

Please, explain your self. --WhiteWriter speaks 17:11, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

That page has been regularly vandalized by POV editors trying to push their separate-languages POV, which is contrary to the scientific consensus: The various standards are all easily mutually intelligible and hence part of the same language, no matter what its speakers might want to believe. Was I mistaken in identifying you as one of those, despite your edit? --JorisvS (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Scientific consensus cannot stop the fact that language is not official today. That is the reason i edited the article. Do you have some objection with the fact that language is not official anymore? And it would be vise to be careful with calling other user a POV vandal, without even slightest remembrance of good faith. Thanks for your understanding. --WhiteWriter speaks 17:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
You removed the phrase saying where it was spoken (while moving the the part about when it was official up). That triggered me. I'll give you some good advice too: Next time, try being more careful when deleting good information. --JorisvS (talk) 17:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

DPs[edit]

I sympathize that it's a bit difficult to follow Ortiz's English with any great certainty, but I wonder here how "Orcus qualifies to become a dwarf planet" wouldn't mean that it meets the criteria of being a dwarf planet. Not that we need all three sources, but given all the drama, it might be a good idea.

Also, could you review these,[7][8] as both Sheppard and the IAU note that they may turn out to not be DPs (as unlikely as tat eventuality may be), and I think that wording reflects the sources, though it can probably be improved.

(Oh, and now Sedna as well, despite Kheider accepting the changes.) — kwami (talk) 14:22, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Ortiz does, but his wording doesn't unambiguously say so (and hence technically makes it OR). Given all the drama I think it is a good idea to only include those sources that unambiguously say so (but, yes, as many as possible).
As for Haumea and Makemake, maybe it is better to just call them DPs, note that they were (originally) included because of their abs. mag. (incl. ref!) and then say that not all astronomers consider these to be certainly DPs (again with ref)? This would change as little as possible and hence create less fuss, which creates a bigger likelihood that such properly sourced pieces of information can make their way into a article.
And I see Ruslik is now inserting his own POV weasel wording not at all supported by the references: "It is thought to be a likely ..."[9]. --JorisvS (talk) 15:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Some POV inserted here, if you wouldn't mind.
To reduce drama, could you change the wording for Haumea & Makemake? Though if we follow Sheppard, they are "likely", as Sedna and Orcus are. More widely accepted, of course, but Sheppard is a RS we shouldn't dismiss, IMO.
BTW, a slightly more recent Tancredi ref. Can't link directly from WP, but you can enter it into the address window manually:
first: http://www.google.com/
then: url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=0CCwQFjACOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjournals.cambridge.org%2Farticle_S1743921310001717&ei=P7wFT5btC4n9sQLkpMmQCg&usg=AFQjCNEPgt0xnS-QeNJJ2PG7_lAu3xuBqw
kwami (talk) 15:16, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
I can't find that link. I'll take a crack at Haumea and Makemake in a minute. --JorisvS (talk) 15:25, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
It works. Make sure you keep the slash between the two parts of the address. The paper is Physical and dynamical characteristics of icy “dwarf planets” (plutoids). — kwami (talk) 15:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, it took some more trial and error to get it to work, but I have it now. Really weird that simple direct linking[10] doesn't work. And why is the way you linked it on WP's blacklist?? Anyway, I'll take a look at it now. --JorisvS (talk) 15:49, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Maybe we can link it this way: [11]. --JorisvS (talk) 15:54, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Ruslik0 is back to censoring the article, because the IAU ref on DP naming is evidently not adequate. I don't think that trying to placate someone that biased will help any. IMO we should just report what the refs say up front. — kwami (talk) 09:03, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, could you take a look at Template:Moons of dwarf planets? The whole point of that is navigation. I don't see why we can't allow Orcus and Quaoar, though maybe a change in wording is in order. — kwami (talk) 09:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

That's complicated. Anything that suggests more universally accepted DPs than the IAU five will get reverted. Try adding a row with 'DPs accepted by some' or something.
Also, could you point me to the IAU ref about the absolute magnitude thing of Makemake and Haumea? I can't seem to find it now. --JorisvS (talk) 09:58, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
I've been looking too. I remember it from earlier discussions, but all I can find off-hand in the IAU rule for H > 1 getting named by the planetary naming committee as DPs, then the press releases that the planetary naming committee named those objects and announced they were DPs. I've written the IAU and asked where the reason for acceptance has been published. — kwami (talk) 10:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Heh, I just read one of Ruslik's comments reverting the addition of Quaoar and Orcus to the template: "These two are not dwarf planets"[12]. It illustrates how people feel about this. Yet I can't imagine how these could possibly turn out not to be DPs.
As a bit of constructive criticism, I must also point out to you that adding dubious tags to Makemake and Haumea being DPs only serves to make the other contributors less open towards your other contributions and hence makes them more likely to get reverted. And who wants that? --JorisvS (talk) 10:20, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
How's that?
The 'dubious' tags are not there because I doubt they're DPs—I don't, but because the wording is inconsistent and reflects bias for some sources over other, perfectly good ones. I'd be happy at using "is" only for the 3 known DPs or the 9 "must be" DPs, but not for a definition based on H when H is not part of the definition of a DP. Do you know a tag that might be less contentious? It's really biased, not dubious, but the bias tags I know of are all section tags, not inline.
I still find it difficult to believe that in a scientific topic the majority of editors would base factual claims on their emotions rather than the best sources. I keep thinking that if we get more editors who know what they're talking about they will outweigh the nuts, but maybe that isn't going to happen. But if so, it just gets worse: at that point we need to think about revoking FA status. Not being able to follow sources is an embarrassment. — kwami (talk) 10:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
No, I understand that, and I don't doubt your motives. I'm just trying to help. It is that tagging that that way sends the wrong message. I agree with you about the emotions part. I don't understand that either. But since they do, it would be best for us to keep that in mind while editing, because then we can accomplish most. For example by making smaller, well sourced changes. As for the tag, maybe {{POV-statement}}, or better yet, gradually make small sourced changes to improve it. Discussion about it is also possible, but is only constructive if we carefully take others' emotions into account. --JorisvS (talk) 12:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

He's back.[13]kwami (talk) 14:44, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

your comment on my article[edit]

Hi, you placed a clean up tag on my new page, Defensive attribution hypothesis. I've reviewed the page and made changes. Should I remove the tag? Thanks for the help. Dr Ashton (talk) 16:55, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

With the current layout both tags are very much still valid, and thus shouldn't be removed. If you want to improve the article, it will be helpful not to treat it as another psychological literature review or something similar. It could also be helpful to look through the Manual of Style and related pages, e.g. WP:MOS/layout. If you have any more questions, I'm happy to help. --JorisvS (talk) 17:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

79360 Sila-Nunam[edit]

Hi,

The double name for a double object implies it's the name of the system and not the primary. Would affect the wording of the 'satellite' section. Trying to confirm. — kwami (talk) 03:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Comments if you set up your email. — kwami (talk) 06:41, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
I have thought of that, too. Yet JPL calls it 79360 Sila-Nunam, but the Patroclus–Menoetius system 617 Patroclus. So we'd need confirmation before we act on the hunch. --JorisvS (talk) 12:35, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
It is confirmed. To be published shortly. — kwami (talk) 12:49, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Hyphen[edit]

Hey JorisvS with respect to this edit [14] there is a specific consensus against adding many of these hyphens. With the consensus being that we will follow the medical literature. Cheers Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:21, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification[edit]

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Fixed. --JorisvS (talk) 13:29, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

email[edit]

Could you activate your email? I have some comments to send you. — kwami (talk) 21:23, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Activated. --JorisvS (talk) 10:39, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification[edit]

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I've tagged it as a link to a dab page because I'm uncertain myself. --JorisvS (talk) 11:17, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 4[edit]

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Fixed. --JorisvS (talk) 20:55, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Neptune trojan[edit]

Hi Joris - nice job on the expansion of Neptune trojan. Just a note I wanted to mention: please be very careful to paraphrase the sources? "may as well be a long-term resident that happens not to be perfectly dynamically stable" is super-similar phrasing to the original text. I'm COI'd out of working on the article now, but I can do an expert review once you're done with expansion if you plan to put it through GA etc. Iridia (talk) 04:28, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I guess I'm a bit afraid of accidentally saying something the source didn't mean. At any rate, I expect to rephrase and -word everything once I have incorporated more sources. But maybe it couldn't hurt to try to rephrase the few things I already know I'm not happy about. And thanks for the offer of expert review, I will take it when the time comes. --JorisvS (talk) 11:11, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Satellite-planemo candidates[edit]

1How so nowhere near big enough? You didn't look at their size estimates did you? --JorisvS (talk) 11:20, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean when you say 'these are not confirmed'? Obviously, satellite planemos are not dwarf-planet candidates plainly because they're satellites. --JorisvS (talk) 10:37, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
There is always the possibility that satellites could be classified as dwarf planets in the future. The original IAU proposal called for Charon to be included among the dwarf planets. Serendipodous 13:41, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
That's speculation about whether the definition of the term "dwarf planet" will change, thus crystal ball. Satellites currently aren't, even Charon isn't.
I'll repeat the question part because I would like a (plain) answer to it: "What do you mean when you say 'these are not confirmed'?" --JorisvS (talk) 17:23, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Their radii estimates are too uncertain. The error bars are too high, so there won't be a consensus on their size for some time. Serendipodous 17:25, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I understand that. What makes them candidates is that their best estimates place them within or above the size range in which icy bodies will become round. They may turn out to be smaller and not be round, but that is taken into account by calling them candidates. --JorisvS (talk) 17:51, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Do you have anything to say in response to what I have said? --JorisvS (talk) 12:16, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
My gut reaction to this is simply that we have a whole list of objects whose shapes have been determined to a fair degree of accuracy, and a group of objects that have not, and I would rather keep the page focused on those objects with determined shapes, while limiting those that have not. Serendipodous 12:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Well, I can understand why you would. There is currently, however, one problem with that: The same applies to the DP candidates section. These objects' shapes are not known (some do have known light-curve amplitudes, though others have not), otherwise these would be considered DPs, not candidates. --JorisvS (talk) 21:28, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
Which is why I said "limiting" and not "excluding". This list was made years ago, when it was pretty much assumed that the IAU would make Sedna, Orcus, Quaoar and OR10 dwarf planets any day now. Because in the literature, those objects are often referred to as dwarf planets anyway, it seemed best to have a place for them to avoid confusing readers who thought they were. Serendipodous 07:11, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
This rationale still makes the DP candidates section rather problematic, IMHO. Why some are included while others get excluded eludes me. 2005 QU182 may be bright, but it is also very poorly known (I haven't been able to dig up much more about it than info on its orbit and a tentative spectrum). On the other hand, Ixion and Varuna are (probably) relatively small, but better studied. (Of course the inclusion of Sedna, 2007 OR10, Quaoar, and Orcus is obvious). --JorisvS (talk) 10:31, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps we could come up with a better criterion for inclusion, such as brightness or "strong acceptence" as DPs based on the lists in List of dwarf planet candidates. Serendipodous 10:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

I then think it would be best to have this based on actual measurements that suggest that the object is a DP, like in this study (if you can access it) (a similar table is also included in this paper (in which Eris's listed size is worse but Sedna's and Makemake's are better than in the former)). --JorisvS (talk) 11:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
I'd rather base the criterion on something concrete and uncontroversial, rather than one astronomer's conclusions. Especially after the hell we've been through over the whole "Sedna's a dwarf planet/no it's not" debate. Serendipodous 13:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
If you know of something more appropriate than measurements, then please, be my guest... And of course we would use as many sources as we could find (not just Tancredi) and include only those objects they agree on. --JorisvS (talk) 19:49, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
The original criterion for the DPC page was brightness. But yes I'd be OK if there was a plurality of sources. Serendipodous 20:22, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Immunology[edit]

I see you have edited some of the pages within the scope of immunology. Please have a look at the proposal for a WikiProject Immunology WP:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Immunology and give your opinion (support or oppose). Thank you for your attention. Kinkreet~♥moshi moshi♥~ 09:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Solar System[edit]

Thanks for the cleanup; I added that reflist for preview purposes then forgot to delete before submitting! —Alex (ASHill | talk | contribs) 11:44, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thought so. You're welcome. --JorisvS (talk) 11:56, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Homogenous surface?[edit]

Have you inspected the image on high resolution? It has nowhere near a homogeneous surface, I won't revert it anymore, it is on Wikimedia released as free image, if it is used or not, I won't bother about it. Eduemoni↑talk↓ 16:13, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I have. I had to really look for surface features. Ehm, are those dark areas supposed to be albedo features, not an effect of lighting (as it suggested to me)? --JorisvS (talk) 17:04, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
It was based on both HST image and in the actual text for its appearance which describe Pluto as "one of the most contrastive bodies in the Solar System", and its colors varying from "between charcoal black, dark orange and white" and [Buie et al.] "significantly less red than Mars and much more similar to the hues seen on Io with a slightly more orange cast". Eduemoni↑talk↓ 18:48, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Invitation for comment[edit]

As you are an experienced editor and in particular has been very constructively helping damaged articles, your opinion would be very appreciated in this, as yet, non-consensual and critical talk. Thanks, Excalibursword (talk) 17:11, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Terraforming[edit]

Hi JorisvS, would you be able to change the 1 column of bullets in the "See also" section into 2 columns? I think this would increase readability and compress the section a bit (which is needed as it's huge). And there's also the fact that i don't know how to change it to 2 columns. Thanks for reverting my edit with the moon by the way, i was unsure about that and it didn't appear to offer any real benefit. Thanks again Jenova20 15:30, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Three columns now. --JorisvS (talk) 15:46, 3 July 2012 (UTC)
Much better! Thanks Jenova20 15:59, 3 July 2012 (UTC)


Edit[edit]

On Cham Albanian dialect I reverted (eventually) the source misrepresentation of Euzen, but unfortunately I didn't notice that I reverted your edit at first. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:55, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

It's no problem to revert a misrepresentation that I did not notice. I would appreciate it, however, if you would redo my copyediting that you inadvertently reverted, instead of leaving that to me. --JorisvS (talk) 13:37, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Ceres[edit]

The point of the awkward wording here[15] was to avoid the question of whether KBOs are 'asteroids'. Maybe it's not an issue. — kwami (talk) 04:08, 16 July 2012 (UTC)


Ural Altaic fantasy[edit]

Ural-altaic languages are not supported by Scientific Societies/Academies of the World and Hungarian Scientific academy doesn't support it. All great national encyclopedias (English Britannica, American E. Americana, German Brockhaus E.,French LaRousse, Encarta encyclopedia deny the Ural-Altaic fantasy.

See: Hungarian turnism article. Hungarian turanism is strongly related to Hungarian fascism and Ferenc Szálasi too. Hungarian turanists hated the idea of Finno-Ugric language family, but they lost the scientific language debate locally (in Hungary) and internationally (Europe Americas). After that they started to propage the Ural-Altaic fantasy theory. It wasn't successful too. Please don't support Turanism (including Ural-Altaic family) fascism and Jobbik party.--188.36.107.161 (talk) 19:55, 18 July 2012 (UTC)


Read books about it: https://www.google.hu/search?complete/search?client=serp&hl=hu&gs_nf=1&ds=bo&pq=%22ural%20altaic%22%20%22ferenc%20sz%C3%A1lasi%22&cp=101&gs_id=14&xhr=t&q=On%20doctrines%20of%20Hungarian%20racism%2C%20see%20J.%20A.%20Kessler%2C%20%22Turanism%20and%20Pan-Turanism%20in%20Hungary%2C%201890-1945&ech=2&psi=EhUHUMG5G6Kj4gSz672UCQ.1342641432015.5&emsg=NCSR&noj=1&ei=IxUHUI_WJ-r64QTYl5yqCQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.36.107.161 (talk) 19:59, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I know of the very limited support for Ural–Altaic. I am not supporting it by undoing your edit: What the other proposed branches of Eurasiatic are is just not relevant (and the way you added it breaks the sentence), and primitive political ideologies like Turanism (or any other, for that matter) are irrelevant to the lede of an article on a proposed language family, which is, in principle, scientific, not political. --JorisvS (talk) 09:03, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

DPs[edit]

Since people appear to have accepted your wording on the moon template, maybe we've found a solution. Perhaps you could try the main article again? If I did, I'd probly be opposed on principle. — kwami (talk) 09:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll take a crack at it piecemeal, so it may take some time for me to get through it. --JorisvS (talk) 20:17, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Uralic langs[edit]

Requested semi-protection for all Uralic language articles. (Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Current_requests_for_protection) — kwami (talk) 19:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

There are a few articles the anon edited and you missed in your round of reverts. I've reverted those. --JorisvS (talk) 09:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Kurdish language[edit]

I've reworded this, attributing the two positions. I can't see why you left in a source that didn't back the statement, and in any case those two sources don't back the claim " Systematic comparison of Kurdish with other Iranian languages shows that Kurdish is a northwestern Iranian language" - indeed the article makes it clear that Kurdish is not a unified standard language and that not all Kurdish speakers can understand each other. I'm sure it can use improvement, but reverting to the old version was not the way to go about this. As for the Infobox, Infoboxes are often misleading in that they present only a black and white view of what is often too complex to be represented that way. Dougweller (talk) 13:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Apparently I didn't look at the sentence as a whole! Sorry about that. Anyway, it seems OK now. --JorisvS (talk) 13:51, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. There is a lot of edit-warring going on around this, partially in an attempt to prove that the Kurds are the Medeans by saying that they both spoke northwestern Iranian languages. Sock puppets, you name it, and it drives my head in. Dougweller (talk) 14:19, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Permic languages[edit]

Thanks for correcting my addition of Finno-Ugric and Finno-Permic to the tree at Permic languages. I was also coming to the conclusion that they would be better left out. I have added some text regarding the traditional taxonomy. Also, the articles on Komi language and the three varieties need to be harmonized. I may take a shot at this, and would certainly welcome any corrections. --Amble (talk) 22:13, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Sure, I'll keep an eye out for anything I can correct. --JorisvS (talk) 22:22, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Calcium–aluminium-rich inclusion[edit]

Hi, I dont care which version of dash is used in the article name that you just moved, but I'd at least like it to be consistent since there are two dashes in the name and now they aren't the same. dm (talk) 22:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

There is only one dash: between calcium and aluminium. The one of "-rich" is a hyphen. --JorisvS (talk) 07:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I just saw this now. I'm sure I'm missing something extremely obvious, but why is one a dash and one a hyphen? dm (talk) 02:30, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
The relationship between 'calcium' and 'aluminium' is symmetrical (WP:NDASH, 2), one is not subordinate to the other, whereas 'rich' is subordinate to 'calcium–aluminium' (Hyphen#Compound modifiers/MOS:HYPHEN). The inclusion is rich in calcium and aluminium. --JorisvS (talk) 09:11, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation, MOS:Hyphen is a fascinating read dm (talk) 03:19, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

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Lowland Semang language[edit]

Linked to Spurious languages, per Ethnologue. However, we mention a(nother?) lang by this name at Aslian languages#Endangerment and extinction. Don't know if that means we should redirect or create a stub? — kwami (talk) 19:30, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't know (yet). What language family would the spurious "Lowland Semang [orb]" have belonged to? Can we tell anything meaningful about (Aslian) Wila'? And is it certain that that isn't a spurious language? These things we should know first. --JorisvS (talk) 19:44, 20 September 2012 (UTC)


Dongxiang language in Arabic script?[edit]

Hi! On Dongxiang people two images have been labeled as Dongxiang language in Arabic script:

   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Flickr_-_Omar_A._-_Linxia.jpg
   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Flickr_-_Omar_A._-_IMG_2200.jpg

While I have some understanding about Dongxiang language, I cannot read the Arabic script. But we would know much more if you could tell whether these images are actually in Arabic or rather in some other language? Thanks for your help! G Purevdorj (talk) 12:18, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

The best I can do is say that to me it looks like something in the Arabic script. I cannot read the Arabic script either, I cannot say in which language it is written. --JorisvS (talk) 10:09, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Trojan[edit]

JorvisJorisvS, we can play edit tag for all eternity or we can actually talk about this. "Trojan" is a proper noun. It is ALWAYS a proper noun, regardless of the sense in which it is being used. "Trojan" is capitalised because it refers to the city of Troy, just as "Londoner" and "New Yorker" are also always capitalised. Serendipodous 11:29, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

It refers to a class of objects, which makes it a common noun with respect to its meaning. "Trojan" as meaning an inhabitant of the city Troy is semantically a derivation of a proper noun that, like "Londoner" and the like, should be capitalized. However, "trojan" referring to the objects has no semantic relation to the city Troy, and the term merely originates from that city's name through a chance association. The word is more akin to "moon" (natural satellite), which is itself also derived from a proper noun: "the Moon". And in any case, it is also often written in lowercase. --JorisvS (talk) 15:41, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
When you actually look at the list of things named for residents of places, such as frankfurters, hamburgers, or Berliner sausages, whether one chooses to capitalise the letter is largely down to convention, and in this case, nearly every scholarly article that mentions the Neptune Trojans capitalises "Trojan", as does every article on "Mars Trojans", so I think we can conclude that "Trojan" is always capitalised. Serendipodous 15:55, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Actually, Serendipodous, Trojan/trojan is a common noun. We capitalize it because it's derived from a proper noun. Same as American, which is also a capitalized common noun. — kwami (talk) 18:51, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree with JorisvS - The term "trojan moon" is not capitalized because it refers to to a class of objects, not a unique group that has achieved proper noun status. You would capitalize the word in "Trojan moons" if you were (somehow) referring to moons of the city of Troy. Embram (talk) 15:51, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
For hyphens. Rothorpe (talk) 16:39, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! --JorisvS (talk) 16:41, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Typos[edit]

Thanks for catching that typo in Solar System - it was appreciated. --Ckatzchatspy 20:13, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

No problem, that's what it's Wikipedia for;). --JorisvS (talk) 21:44, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Natural satellite[edit]

As I said in response to your comment in my talk, I have no problem with changing "most every", but I disagree with the way you edited the passage, because you have made it less precise. The way you have written it, the language literally reads that a plural number of natural satellites follow a single (i.e., the same) orbit, and that regular moons are tidally locked to respective primaries (plural), which leaves it ambiguous as to whether each regular moon might have more than one primary. What is wrong with leaving at the way I wrote it, except changing "most every" to the more formal "almost every"? Embram (talk) 16:15, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I overlooked one element to pluralize. Now it should be unambiguous about it. As I said, "most every" is ungrammatical English, so "almost every" is not just 'more formal'. --JorisvS (talk) 16:21, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I must disagree. Changes to grammar like this (involving phrases) become acceptable and even grammatical with use, as long as they do not cause confusion or violate some basic rule of grammar. "Most every" is grammatical, though informal, in American English. See link, for example: http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/most_1
But I do not object to your removal of "most every." However, you have not answered my question: with the exception of "most every", what was wrong with the alternative version of the passage, which was more precise before you changed it? "Almost every regular moon (a natural satellite of a planet following a relatively close and prograde orbit with little orbital inclination or eccentricity) in the Solar System is tidally locked to its respective primary…." Your changing it added a grammatical ambiguity as to number (how many respective primaries each regular moon has), as well as leaving no clear antecedent basis for the natural satellite in the final clause of the sentence. I cannot win arguing with you about it, since you have reviewer status, but I urge you to consider the question fairly and change it back (or allow me to change it back) to the more precise version (except using "Almost every"), and remove the antecedent problem (perhaps change it to each natural satellite). Embram (talk) 16:57, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Check my edits, specifically the one that says 'missed this'. Unless I'm missing something else, it should be good now. What exactly is your proposal with the 'each'? --JorisvS (talk) 17:05, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
The phrase their respective primaries still has the same number ambiguity, but while I think the singular version of the passage superior, I would not press the matter or even bother changing it (or the antecedent problem) now that I think about it, because I think most people would understand what is meant the way it now reads.
Incidentally, not that I never make mistakes (I do sometimes make them), but just as background, I have been a patent attorney for nearly twenty years, so it is my business to be critically precise with language where necessary, particularly with regard to matters of number and words like "respectively," which is why I changed that passage while editing. Embram (talk) 17:33, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
It's good to be critically precise about language when writing an encyclopedia, so no problem there! Could you spell the ambiguity in "their respective primaries" out for me? --JorisvS (talk) 17:38, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Well, it's a small matter and as I said, I think people will normally understand that you mean each natural satellite is tidally locked to its respective primary, but (for example) if I were a patent litigator trying to defend against a charge of patent infringement by my client's widget, which comprised a number of knobs each of which was connected to a single (respective) shaft, and the plaintiff's patent recited "a plurality of knobs connected to their respective shafts", I might take advantage of the fact that the word "shafts" is plural by arguing that "a plurality of knobs connected to their respective shafts" requires more than one knob each of which is connected to more than one shaft. To avoid that problem, the drafter of the claim should have written "a plurality of knobs each of which is connected to a shaft" (or "to a respective shaft" or "to its corresponding shaft" or something similar, depending on the situation). But as I said, that level of specificity may be necessary in patents, but (I'm guessing) not in an encyclopedia entry where readers would normally assume (unless told otherwise) that each satellite has only one primary, and the phrase "satellites locked to respective primaries" could literally mean one primary to a satellite, as well as more than one, so it's not wrong per se. I only changed the passage when I came across it (while editing for another reason) because I'm used to correcting to that level of specificity. I expect you're more expert than I when it comes to the standards of clarity needed for encyclopedias. And by the way, thanks for catching "most every" - I hadn't realized it was an Americanism. Embram (talk) 18:36, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation. As you said, readers will normally not misunderstand it. In this case especially so, because a moon can only have one primary (whereas your knobs could potentially have more than one shaft). Therefore, while legally it is subject to multiple interpretations, there is only one that also makes sense. --JorisvS (talk) 18:59, 21 November 2012 (UTC)
Quite so! Context is king. Embram (talk) 19:01, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Glasgow effect[edit]

I appreciate your edit, though it seems the article's main contributor is having trouble accepting what seems obvious to you and me. You may want to contribute to the talk page discussion on the matter. — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 18:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

I will try, though for me your explanation on the talk page is very clear, and hence I don't know what is needed to make him understand it. --JorisvS (talk) 18:25, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Moksha language[edit]

Hi, JorisvS. Pls kindly comment what exactly seems dubious to your opinion? Prosecutor's Office information? Or the fact that the source information is in Russian (not in English) and not clear what exactly was said? --Numulunj pilgae 16:56, 7 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Numulunj pilgae (talkcontribs)

I've explained it on the associated talk page. --JorisvS (talk) 17:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Dwarf Planet Pre-2006[edit]

Noting your edits on Eris (dwarf planet) and Makemake (dwarf planet), you state that "they have been DPs all along (or would not have been that at all)".

I was simply trying to be true to the fact that the words "Dwarf Planet" did NOT fully exist prior to the International Astronomical Union reached their final decisions on August 24, 2006. As such, was trying to say that they were announced in 2005 as new TNOs, and were later designated DPs (once DPs were finally defined in 2006). This might be important to the articles - but then again it might be too technically correct to make a difference. Your thoughts? Jmg38 (talk) 11:14, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Before 2006 the categorizations (including the associated labels) were rather limited. Eris did not become a 'dwarf planet' because we suddenly came up with the category and the word. Prior to 2006, we did not label it as such, because our understanding and vocabulary was more limited than it is today. It is a dwarf planet because it is round (and has been for billions of years) and has never cleared its neighborhood, which are things independent of our knowledge or understanding. The dwarf planets have been dwarf planets for billions of years. Note also that this means that the bodies that are currently dwarf-planet candidates are only candidates to us because of our limited knowledge about them; they are in fact either dwarf planets or not (we just don't know). --JorisvS (talk) 17:25, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Hand-coding[edit]

Hey all :).

I'm dropping you a note because you've been involved in dealing with feedback from the Article Feedback Tool. To get a better handle on the overall quality of comments now that the tool has become a more established part of the reader experience, we're undertaking a round of hand coding - basically, taking a sample of feedback and marking each piece as inappropriate, helpful, so on - and would like anyone interested in improving the tool to participate :).

You can code as many or as few pieces of feedback as you want: this page should explain how to use the system, and there is a demo here. Once you're comfortable with the task, just drop me an email at okeyes@wikimedia.org and I'll set you up with an account :).

If you'd like to chat with us about the research, or want live tutoring on the software, there will be an office hours session on Monday 17 December at 23:00 UTC in #wikimedia-officeconnect. Hope to see some of you there! Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 22:57, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

move request for 79360 Sila–Nunam[edit]

I opened a move request in Talk:79360_Sila–Nunam#Requested_move. You are receiving this notice beause you have made substantial changes to the article. --Enric Naval (talk) 15:31, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Nomination of Swadesh list of Lezgic languages for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Swadesh list of Lezgic languages is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Swadesh list of Lezgic languages until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 15:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

The Space Barnstar[edit]

Space-Barnstar-1j.png The Space Barnstar
The Space Barnstar, for excellence in contributions to articles about outer space. Thank you for updating, expanding, and improving articles about space. Fotaun (talk) 01:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! --JorisvS (talk) 11:24, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Likely and probably[edit]

Yes, 'it's very likely a...', as with '...most likely...', sounds okay to me. British speakers usually use 'likely' on its own as an adjective, preferring 'probably' for the one-word adverb. I've tried to stop altering it but sometimes I can't resist! You say Brown makes a distinction between them? Rothorpe (talk) 15:26, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, take a look at the source: [16]. --JorisvS (talk) 10:01, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
So 'likely' is more probable than 'probably'. I didn't know that. Thanks! Rothorpe (talk) 16:44, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Belgian Limburgish[edit]

Yeah, the term might not really be best. It's a synonym for Central Limburgish, as most Central Limburgish dialects are spoken in Belgian Limburg. --OosWesThoesBes (talk) 11:58, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Venetian language[edit]

I think your edits about Venetian are sensible, nevertheless someone reverted my edits to Romance languages template. Any idea how to fix it? Cheers--Carnby (talk) 20:04, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't know. I think linguist haven't completely figured out its exact classification. According to Italo-Dalmatian languages Venetian is part of that group. Maybe a solution could be to add languages that have such an uncertain classification to both groups and add a sign that says so. --JorisvS (talk) 10:46, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Question[edit]

Hi JorisvS, could you please explain me this? Thanks in advance, Jón + 16:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

If a wikilink intentionally links to a disambiguation (dab) page, it should always point to "XXX (disambiguation)", even if the page itself is located at "XXX". This is for maintenance reasons: Most links to dab pages are unintentional and should be corrected. To easily identify which links are correct, intentional links to dab pages should be handled as I have described. See WP:DABNAME. --JorisvS (talk) 16:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Ok, could you please delete Merkel (disambiguation) and move Merkel there? My intention was that "Merkel" becomes a redirect to Angela Merkel (see Goethe --> Johann Wolfgang Goethe) as she is the one that you first think of hearing "Merkel". Thx, Jón + 16:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
No, I can't delete it, just like you. You'd have to ask an admin. --JorisvS (talk) 16:42, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Article Feedback deployment[edit]

Hey JorisvS; I'm dropping you this note because you've used the article feedback tool in the last month or so. On Thursday and Friday the tool will be down for a major deployment; it should be up by Saturday, failing anything going wrong, and by Monday if something does :). Thanks, Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 21:23, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Dravidian languages[edit]

I am not sure why you have a problem with the perfectly reasonable use of dialect and tongue or linguistic family as synonyms to avoid the rather unprofessional reuse of the word language repeatedly in the same sentence. You haven't explained yourself. I will report your next reversion as edit warring. Please explain why these perfectly applicable words are such a problem for you, and offer an alternative instead of just reverting. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 21:27, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

"Dialect" is wrong: dialects are mutually intelligible. Languages are not. "Tongue" means the organ and is occasioanlly misused to mean language. I don't know what's "linguistic" about a language family; using this is imprecise. Reusing the word "language" is, in fact, professional, because it is precise. --JorisvS (talk) 21:45, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Would you be interested in helping?[edit]

Talk:Sibilant#Brazilian_postalveolar_fricative

It seems people often think palatalized palato-alveolar ≠ alveolo-palatal. So Catalan and Brazilian Portuguese are grouped in a group that is not the same of Japanese and Mandarin. Though I think it is still notable that some may regard it as alveolo-palatal. One of them making the reasoning that the Brazilian palatalization differs from the Italian palato-alveolars, and theorizing a Tupi influence on the Portuguese of the early cabocla São Paulo that expanded it by migration. The other, clearly using different symbols for Brazilian and European Portuguese, and saying that the coda postalveolar /S/ of Brazil may either be palatalized lamino-alveolar and palatalized lamino-palatoalveolar. But Luizdl disagrees with describing it alveolo-palatal for the sake of simplicity (or doesn't believe at all that it is palatalized, in spite of two sources saying so). I already explained that, as I then already imagined, the East Asian and Iberian alveolopalatals were different on his talkpage on Portuguese Wikipedia, but discussion there wasn't productive and further inflamated the feel, with him saying in a not very subtle way I don't understand bollocks and that he doesn't really care what anglos agree with but I just won't put my bullshit in "his" wiki-pt... and he made it clear that he meant so. Editing the sibilant article myself encompassing all views would be undue (or rather not...), and simply reverting him would perhaps make a [bigger] problem for me in the future. Thanks. Lguipontes (talk) 01:59, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

What would you like me to do? What do you think should happen and what does this Luizdl want? --JorisvS (talk) 14:55, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
For you to give your opinion. I believe it should be mentioned that some languages have it as alveolo-palatals (Japanese and Mandarin) and other kinds of palatalized palato-alveolars (BP and Catalan), though I don't know if other Wikipedians would agree with such usage. I think he is skeptic and wanting to deny that those sounds in BP are "unusual" in any way (though the source he provided says that they don't mean that BP sC/zC/-s/-z, ti, di, x, j is your average European palato-alveolar, that it isn't even uniform across languages, just that those are closer to such sound than the Japanese – Canepari said that the East Asian alveolo-palatal has rounding and is articulated in a point very different to that of BP, so it isn't news in any way). Lguipontes (talk) 17:23, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Well, I don't really have an opinion about something unless/until I am at least somewhat informed about it. AFAIK neither palato-alveolars (palatalized palato-alveolars are actually a tautology, AFAICT) nor alveolo-palatals are uncommon/unusual. And neither is rounding, really, English palato-alveolars are typically somewhat rounded. There exists a whole continuum from alveolar through postalveolar to palatal (and on to velar etc.) and from subapical through apical and laminal to dorsal. A language's "(post)alveolar(s)" will be somewhere on this continuum, and to a certain extent this will be unique to the language (and then, of course, there is variability in it). For Wikipedia, it all comes down to what the sources say and, obviously, which sources appear to be the more reliable ones (and if there is a tie, we should report them both). Does this help you?--JorisvS (talk) 22:02, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I know it, I was late for my check with a new doctor and I messed up postalveolar with palato-alveolar. Sometimes it is used in free variation, after all, and I believe that the source Luiz presented seems to treat them that way.
You can check the links on Aeusoes1' user page, the 3rd last section.
It seems people associate "true" alveolo-palatal only with a dorsal point of articulation. The symbols here in Wikipedia associated with alveolo-palatal articulations in general are used to Canepari to transcript Japanese and Mandarin, and he describes it as "bilabialized prepalatal". The Brazilian Portuguese, as the Catalan, postalveolar is the non-labialized palatalized lamino-postalveolar, what is pretty different, and it is perfectly reasonable for people to group it rather with European sh (though I believe the sound of Japanese better approximates our pronunciation than that of English or European Portuguese...).
Are you sure? I don't want to be reverted back again, and again, and again, anymore. I try to use Canepari here since, idk, September, and it never works. When the fellow editor Aeusoes1 agrees with me that it is reliable, Luiz appears and contradicts me. :/ Lguipontes (talk) 01:21, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Which source would I have to check? Although there seems to be some disagreement, the description of alveolo-palatals from the article seems to indicate that it is typically something like a prepalatal and between dorsal and laminal. Of course, truly dorsal postalveolars and laminal (pre)palatals are also possible (even apical velars are!). Before I make a judgment, I'd like to know what sources do we (you and Luizdl) have, what do they specifically say, and how they support their statements. What is the source Aeusoes has mentioned, the one that contradicts Canepari with formant data? --JorisvS (talk) 10:06, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
I slowed the rate of the debate as it is a bit intellectually expensive for me, and at day 28 I got a strong headache. xD
The sources are the 5 or 6 links in the relatively recent section I created in Aeusoes1's userpage and the section Luizdl created on the article talkpage. Irrespectively of language used, together the 3 authors lead us to the conclusion that Brazilian Portuguese got a sibilant position different from both the European and East Asian ones; that Portuguese in general got a laminal postalveolar; that the difference of Brazilian Portuguese from European is that BP has it palatalized and non-labialized, while Euro has it non-palatalized and compressed. Luizdl's failed claim is based on the fact that the only source that uses formant data (of a single Brazilian speaker, from an area with an insular and conservative dialect, also fluent in English) uses the language laminal palato-alveolar for BP making it distinct from dorsal alveolo-palatal for Japanese (neither me nor Canepari never claimed it was the same of Japanese). Aeusoes1 agree on using Canepari. I endorse almost every bit of Canepari, it leads to the conclusions I defended for years here in Wikipedia but lead to the disbelief on my edits due to instances of OR. I don't know the opinion of you guys (Wikipedians other than Luizdl) if the source using formant data rules out the other two (Canepari and the other Brazilian) even if its language does not proposes the comparison we want, namely the disclaimer "we aren't saying European [ʃ] are all the same" after saying "Brazilian [ʃ] is mispronounced by the Japanese as [ɕ]". Lguipontes (talk) 09:00, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Bhojpuri edits[edit]

Hi, I raised an issue about user Mywikieditbh (aka 192.151.243.xxx) at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents# User:Mywikieditbh that initially concerned North India but I also added mention of the Bhojpuri language article and made a claim that you may wish to review for accuracy (since I wasn't personally involved in this article's editing). Also, have you had any luck communicating with this editor? Thank you. --Hunnjazal (talk) 15:11, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

in magnitude[edit]

Hello JorisvS,

I reverted one of your changes to the 55 Pandora article because I find it common in the referenced academic papers for authors to write of a 'variation of X in magnitude'. I think the use of 'in' does a better job of indicating a range rather than a specific value. There was no offense intended. Praemonitus (talk) 18:48, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

That way it doesn't have a proper unit. Variations in, for example, temperature are not indicated by "... in K". I've now changed it to be more clear and indicate a proper unit: "a brightness variation of Δm=0.22 mag", which is the typical way other variations in physical quantities are indicated. --JorisvS (talk) 20:18, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Moving KOI-172.02 to Kepler-69c[edit]

Thanks for your help with moving KOI-172.02 to Kepler-69c - *entirely* ok with me if you would like to complete the process ASAP - as well as with the related Talk:KOI-172.02 to Talk:Kepler-69c - Thanks again for your help - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 21:19, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Maybe you could look around for an admin and ask him/her to delete the pages that are in the way to move the three relevant articles. If I were an admin I would simply have done it myself. --JorisvS (talk) 22:53, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your comment - yes, may try {{help}} on Talk:Kepler-69c page & see - thanks again - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 23:08, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done - all now seems to be ok - thanks again for your help with this - it's *greatly* appreciated - enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 00:23, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
X mark.svg Not done You don't know how to move an article, do you? You simply recreated the article, making the delete USELESS. What you should do is use the 'move' button at KOI-172.02 to rename it to Kepler-69c. You should not copy-paste the contents under the new title. --JorisvS (talk) 08:13, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your correction - yes, procedure is new to me (my 1st time w/ this) - lesson learned - thanks again - enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 11:38, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Try again  Ronhjones  (Talk) 22:51, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for informing me. The page has been moved. Yes check.svg Done --JorisvS (talk) 23:10, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Excellent! - Thank you *very, very much* for *all* the help - it's *very much* appreciated - Thanks again - and - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 23:27, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Not a problem. ;) --JorisvS (talk) 23:29, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Terminology[edit]

Please bear in mind the different nuances of 'Serbo-Croatian'; on one hand as a valid linguistic term pertaining to the fact that Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks share one and the same language, and on the other as a defunct official name of that language. In relation to the latter, Serbo-Croatian currently goes under three different official names or languages which are, once more, linguistically registers of that same language unitarily referred to as Serbo-Croatian, or BCS. The first-mentioned nuance certainly trumps the second in a purely scientific linguistic setting (which is the reason we have organized the different language articles the way we have), whereas the opposite is true in terms of politically correct naming as in article leads which are to conform with official statuses and not linguistic terms. The linguistic qualities of Bosnian, Serbian and Croatian should be, and are, hashed out in their respective articles which have all been made to converge at Serbo-Croatian. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 00:49, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not in the business of 'politically correct naming' sensitive issues. If it were, we wouldn't be having our article entitlted Serbo-Croatian, but instead having it entitled using one of the bulky, cumbersome 'political correct' terms. So, instead of cluttering the lead with something like "Croatian: D, Bosnian: D, Serbian: Д" it is straightforward and much less cluttering (and not to mention far less misleading!) to simply put in "Serbo-Croatian: D/Д". Yes, some people from the Balkans take offense to seeing the term "Serbo-Croatian", just like some people will take offense to seeing depictions of Allah. These are not statements of political endorsement (as these people would think), but simply simple neutral descriptors/illustrations. --JorisvS (talk) 08:36, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
We are using the title Serbo-Croatian because it is the more common (still), and that title is in my opinion nowhere controversial as long as it is limited to being a linguistic term (and thus used in the proper context) and not the official language/label it misleadingly becomes if used to introduce articles on nations, states etc. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not an outlet to express dismay over the absurdities in the ethnic politics of the former Yugoslavia. Omitting the official standards/names from the lead is neither politically correct nor politically accurate, as it would not reflect the circumstances that do indeed exist (think of them what you will, fact remains it is not in our jurisdiction to introduce controversies where it is undue). As part of this, you are approaching the issue solely from a linguistic viewpoint, which is what I attempted to highlight above - in vain. You're not technically wrong, but you are failing to observe the two levels of authority I underline. Namely, that introducing an article without making any mention of potential official languages and/or names is absurd and misleading, and in the context of Serbo-Croatian that would basically equal writing that the official language of Serbia, Croatia or Bosnia is Serbo-Croatian (although not misleading or inaccurate in a linguistic sense, it is in every other). As I previously wrote you in an edit summary, this is not purely a linguistic issue, as three official languages indeed exist. Any linguistic treatise on these three ill-conceived creatures sprung out of man's malice is appropriately confined to the relevant language articles where no one can mistake them for separate languages. I really can't find anything more to say. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 10:00, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Do also note that Serbo-Croatian is appropriately used in articles whose primary topic is tied to the former Yugoslavia, such as the article on Josip Broz Tito, because here such a terminology does not run the risk of becoming anachronistic. Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 10:13, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
"these three ill-conceived creatures sprung out of man's malice is appropriately confined to the relevant language articles where no one can mistake them for separate languages"–pretty much always can one mistake them for separate languages, and especially so if along each other in the way I illustrated above. Such a comment in the first sentence of an article is to inform readers about the term for the subject in the relevant language, in this case that is Serbo-Croatian, the native language of most of Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, and Montenegro. Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian are not languages, but standardized lects. Unless the terms used in these lects are different, it is quite appropriate to simply use the term for the entire language, i.e. Serbo-Croatian. We are not the ones 'introducing controversies' by doing this. Wikipedia does not exist to serve the whimps of politics and emotion. --JorisvS (talk) 10:32, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
"is to inform readers about the term for the subject in the relevant language" - dead on, and we're back on square one. Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are inarguably admitted [official] languages, with for instance different ISO-codes, but at the same time one and the same language. Hence, lo and behold, the two levels of meaning I've been stressing all along. There is informational value in both levels, and both are equally indispensable for understanding various aspects of the subject matter, whether political, ethnic, linguistic and so forth. There is a dual relevance, a dual significance, and a dual meaning, and none can be suppressed, that is, until a better term than "Serbo-Croatian" is presented or the three separate official "languages" cease to exist (we are almost looking at a form of synergy, one wouldn't exit without the other, really). The lead serves to establish the subject, set the tone and guide the reader into the article, needless to say the terminology used cannot be out of context. An option to resolving this dilemma could, occasionally, be to employ Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian which takes into account official distinctions while still underlining their common ground. It's been fun talking to you but I suspect we could go on like this forever, it's probably for the better to put an end to it here (for my part).Praxis Icosahedron (talk) 13:01, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
They can't be both different languages and the same language. Language=group of mutually intelligible lects. Because BCS are all mutually intelligible, they are the same language. Specifically, they are all standardized lects of the same language. The language called Serbo-Croatian exists no matter what we call it (and even if we wouldn't give it any name). --JorisvS (talk) 16:17, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Serbo-Croatian is nowadays a linguistic term applied to the language of the Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks. That language is officially known/sanctioned as Serbian, Croatian or Bosnian. Serbo-Croatian is deprecated as an official descriptor and consequently limited to linguistic utilization or the proper time period. From a politic view, the decision by Croat and Serb linguists to renounce "Serbo-Croatian" is certainly harder to grasp than that of the Bosniaks, who were not represented by such a designation. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ - Talk 12:44, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, in official blabla. But Wikipedia is not in the business of simply following such official blabla. It is simply the term used to indicate the West South Slavic language that is spoken in most of Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro, regardless of the official blabla. Consider the hypothetical situation where some government decides to officially to refer to special and general relativity by different names and to consider them unrelated (instead of special relativity an approximation of general relativity for weak gravitational fields). We wouldn't follow them just because they have decided that, also not on topics related to that government's country. --JorisvS (talk) 16:08, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'm afraid your metaphor is basically fallacious because it assumes that the names "Bosnian", "Serbian" or "Croatian" are factually inaccurate (or even artificial or "made up") when in fact each of them predate "Serbo-Croatian" which was coined in the mid-19th century. Serbo-Croatian is a language with four names: S-C, C, B and S - Bosnian, Croatian are Serbian are the official and common names used as of today (with each of their articles having more monthly views than the one for S-C, and not to mention together) while Serbo-Croatian is limited to being a linguistic term. Criticizing the bulkiness of these three original and separate names would in its extremest sense involve criticizing Bosnia, Serbia and Croatia for being three separate states over the past 1000 years, and some outsiders might instinctively (and uncomprehendingly) feel it ought to be one state and one ethnic group gathered under one banner and name. The other faulty assumption is that the Serbs, Bosniaks and Croats would truly think of their languages as separate. Now "Balkanians" might be daft, but they surely do realize that they are speaking one and the same language only separated by longstanding ethnic distinctions. For that reason, the language is today (and indeed historically) known by three names with 'Serbo-Croatian' being a unitary linguistic term which previously and relatively briefly had enjoyed the status of also being an official and widely used name. An accurate metaphor would thus be the following: three old and separate universities exist ("A", "B" and "C") which at some point early in their history simultaneously (but still separately) make a scientific discovery which they name after themselves (A, B and C, respectively). Centuries pass when suddenly a unitary name for the discovery is suggested: "A-B" (with C left out for various reasons we need not to go into the detail of). The new term "A-B" is tentatively used for a couple of decades until the universities are merged into a unified institution ("Yugoslavia") where "A-B" soon becomes an official and widely used name of the discovery. However, due to unbridgeable differences between the ancient universities the unified institution quickly dissolves with the universities returning to being separate. Wanting to emphasize and underline their distinct heritages as separate universities (as opposed to any alleged fundamental difference in the discovery) they declare "A", "B" and "C" as names of the discovery, respectively. The revived names "A", "B" and "C" are thereafter proclaimed official names of the discovery and recognized by accredited institutions ("ISO-codes"). The language is therefore today called either Bosnian (C), Serbian (A) or Croatian (B) and not Serbo-Croatian (A-B), anything else is blatant disinformation. Serbo-Croatian consequently postulates usage in the proper context as to not overshadow the hard facts laid out above. I've said it a number of times now, but I'm currently too preoccupied to engage in polemy of this magnitude. Thank you. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ - Talk 20:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

It finally also struck me that you wrote "We wouldn't follow them just because they have decided that", which is wrong because the supreme "We" in this regard (the International Organization for Standardization) does comply with the naming desired by the peoples in question. "We" is not ment to be original research carried out by wikipedians, not to mention that it is plain arrogant to write about the language of a people or state but refuse to refer to it by their collective agreement which is based on historically valid terminology in all three cases. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ - Talk 21:25, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

You've missed the point of my comparison. It's not about the names (that's why I didn't include any). Sure, Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian history and the terms go back far further than the term Serbo-Croatian, but that does not matter. These peoples, with their sizeable history and distinct cultures, somehow do have a common language. This is most commonly termed "Serbo-Croatian", but, in principle, it does not matter which term is used. For all I care we'd use "Croatian", "Serbian", "Bosnian" or something like, say, "Sercrobos" for it, BUT we should be consistent: if we'd use "Croatian" for it, we should do so everywhere, which means the main language of Serbia would be "Croatian". I like your university comparison. There is still one difference with Serbo-Croatian: Serbian and especially Croatian are regularly declared separate languages (cf. universities A and B declaring their discoveries about distinct phenomena). Consider, then, the outside scientific world: They would look down upon the petty politics of these institutions. They would, of course, still deal with this subject and would mostly use some common name. This could well be "A–B" instead of technically proper "A–B–C" (this actually regularly happens in practice). However, even though somewhat different names may be used, never will these be considered distinct phenomena. Regarding Serbo-Croatian, this does happen, so we should be careful not to mislead people into believing that these are different languages, which they are not (all the history, official blabla, and misplaced emotions notwithstanding). --JorisvS (talk) 22:41, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree, all that should be done, however without compromising the relevant understanding that Serbo-Croatian is registered under its ethnic names given the numerous implications. Now we certainly want people to understand that Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian comprise one language, but while also avoiding giving the impression that "Serbo-Croatian" is an active name (it would for instance be awkward having people think Bosniaks call their language "S-C", now wouldn't it?). As for consistency, the approach is pretty clear-cut in topics relating to only one of the groups (such as ethnic articles) where using the ethnic language name is the only sensible measure. In articles concerning two or more of the groups I would choose "B/S/C" or, alternatively, expository notes underlining the virtual equality of the language"s". Historiographic articles are way trickier however, since history topics in the former Yugoslavia (and especially Bosnia) frequently involve three separate and not seldom conflicting historiographies (Bosniak, Serb and Croat) which often use different names or spellings with far-reaching implications on the interpretation of local history. Indicating the three languages is of necessity here due to different scholarships (in this sense, Yugoslavia had, as with everything else, one unified scholarship). Whatever the case, there can never remain any doubt as to by which names the language is called on the ground. Imagine introducing the article on Bosnia and Herzegovina with the name Serbo-Croatian, I would have to read through 7 sections of text before finding out that the language is officially known as Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian. Most people do not reach that far. Using B/S/C, or a directly attached expository note stating "Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are standardized registers of one single language commonly termed Serbo-Croatian" is an uncompromising solution. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 23:56, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Why would using "Serbo-Croatian" have to be awkward for Bosniaks? Compare the Flemish, who speak Dutch, which is called Nederlands in Dutch, also in their own lects, even though they live in Belgium, not the Netherlands. Anyway, such an expository note looks quite appropriate, and better than writing B/C/S. I'm not sure what you mean by the three separate, conflicting historiographies, could you explain this to me? --JorisvS (talk) 08:13, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
What I simply ment is that Bosniaks neither officially nor unofficially refer to their language as S-C, the same goes for most Serbs and Croats. Giving the impression they do is wrong, as it would be to suggest the Dutch to use the name Holland for the entire Netherlands. As for historiography, indicating different languages is more than just a linguistic issue, since it also informs which states/nations/peoples have part or claims in the given subject. Sometimes even purely different languages may for example use the same toponym for a common history-related topic but one wouldn't omit either. In this sense "Bosnian", "Serbian" and "Croatian" relates to the different statehoods (contemporary and historical alike) and ultimately the scholarships associated therewith, which are in addition often conflicting. Take for example the title Stephanos (meaning the crowned) which is translated as Stjepan in Bosnian and Croatian historiography, and as Stefan in the Serbian one. Stefan in this regard is used by the Serbian scholarship to claim affiliation to the Serbian Nemanjic dynasty, something which the Bosnian and Croatian scholarship rejects and instead uses the rendering Stjepan. Hence, simply writing Serbo-Croatian: Stefan/Stjepan would do little to facilitate the understanding. Since Yugoslavia was centralized in every possible sense, history was studied rather as a Yugoslav than Bosnian, Croatian or Serbian subject, and "Serbo-Croatian" symbolized that governmental unity and scholastic consensus, which would be anachronistic today. Anyways, these thoughts were just on a side note. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 14:48, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Definition of "Null"[edit]

Of possible interest re Kepler-69 =>
< ref name="Exo-20130422">"An entry of null means that no information was available for that parameter. In the example of KOI 172, some of the planetary and orbital parameters were calculated in the given reference (Barclay et al) but for the others, we enter a value of null." Exoplanet Archive team (April 22, 2013). "Exoplanet Help Desk". CalTech EMail to Drbogdan. Retrieved April 22, 2013. </ref>
hope this helps - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 19:20, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

For me, yes. But I'd prefer something ref'able so we can put this in the article for all readers who see it and wonder what it is supposed to mean. --JorisvS (talk) 19:23, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Your "?" edit for the Kepler-69 table seems like a *very* good solution to me at the moment - yes, a WP:RS might be helpful as well - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 21:06, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

AFT5 re-enabled[edit]

Hey JorisvS :). Just a note that the Article Feedback Tool, Version 5 has now been re-enabled. Let us know on the talkpage if you spot any bugs. Thanks! Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 00:53, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Saraiki language[edit]

Dear, Saraiki is a language, it is not a dialect. Riasti dialect, Shah puri dialect, Multani dialect, Multani language, Thalochi dialect, Thalochi ,Derawali dialect articles. I suggest merging these articles , as the all these are same. And also be Redirected to Saraiki language. Also Jhangvi dialect is dialect of Saraiki. Kindly See these External Links #1 and #2.

  • Department of Saraiki, Islamia University, Bahawalpur was established in 1989[1] and Department of Saraiki, Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan[2] was established in 2006. Saraiki is taught as subject in schools and colleges at higher secondary, intermediate and degree level. Allama Iqbal open university Islamabad,[3] and Al-Khair university Bhimbir have their Pakistani Linguistics Departments. They are offering M.Phil. and Ph.D in Saraiki. Five TV channels and Ten Radio Stations are Serving Saraiki language. 182.186.116.104 (talk) 12:51, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Your point? How does that prove anything either way? The same things are true of Serbian, yet Serbian is not a language, but a standardized register of the language that is called Serbo-Croatian. I don't know enough about it to know either way, but POINTy edits like this are unconstructive. --JorisvS (talk) 13:03, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Tidal locking[edit]

Hello!

I notice that you are very interested in matters of language. So I was puzzled by a recent change of yours:

You changed

"If the Moon didn't spin at all, then it would alternately show its near and far sides to the Earth while moving around our planet in orbit, as shown in the figure on the right."

to

"If the Moon would not spin at all, it would alternately show its near and far sides to the Earth while moving around our planet in orbit, as shown in the figure on the right."

If your intent were to convert the sentence to use past subjunctive mood to express the counterfactual nature of the set condition, your rewording was not the proper way of doing it. Modern colloquial English appears mostly to have lost the subjunctive, which apparently has, to young ears, a somewhat stilted or archaic sound. I had made a deliberate choice to use indicative form (which to my old ears, sounds somewhat sloppy and imprecise) in deference to what I perceive to be modern usage.

Proper rewordings would include past subjunctive

"If the Moon were not to spin at all, [then] it would alternately show its near and far sides to the Earth while moving around our planet in orbit, as shown in the figure on the right."

or the past continuous

"If the Moon were not spinning at all, [then] it would alternately show its near and far sides to the Earth while moving around our planet in orbit, as shown in the figure on the right."

I have revised the sentence to use the past continuous form of the subjunctive, so perhaps we can both be happy. Stigmatella aurantiaca (talk) 10:17, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Languages of the Balkans[edit]

Arbëresh language is not only spoken by Albanian communities in Italy, it is also spoken in Croatia, by the Arbanasi community in Zadar. ATivaritalk 13:47, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Says who? There is no mention of such a community on Arbëresh language. --JorisvS (talk) 19:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

A kitten for you![edit]

Iris cat.jpg

yo

Fatum81 (talk) 02:24, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. --JorisvS (talk) 08:10, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Cookies[edit]

Christmas Cookies Plateful.JPG Here's a plate full of cookies to share!
Hi JorisvS, here are some delicious cookies to help brighten your day! However, there are too many cookies here for one person to eat all at once, so please share these cookies with at least two other editors by copying {{subst:Sharethecookies}} to their talk pages. Enjoy! Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 18:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Please do not delete my edits[edit]

Please do not delete edits from other editors without a reasonable explanation. "ridiculous" is not a reasonable explanation. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Booklaunch (talkcontribs) 21:19, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

They're unconstructive edits with ridiculous edit summaries for every sane person to see, so I and other constructive editors will revert them. --JorisvS (talk) 21:32, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Documentation: This refers to [17], [18], and [19]. --JorisvS (talk) 10:22, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Brackets at Bulgarian language[edit]

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Bulgarian language may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "()"s. If you have, don't worry, just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 17:06, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes check.svg All valid instances fixed. --JorisvS (talk) 19:16, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

"Khuzestani Arabic"[edit]

Please present some linguistic literature which describes the Arabic spoken in Khuzestan as a subvariety in its own right. It is treated as Mesopotamian Arabic and is indistinguishable from the Arabic spoken in southern Iraq. [20]

Simply because somebody created a stub named "Khuzestani Arabic" doesn't make it a recognized subvariety. I could create an unreferenced stub named "Najafi Arabic" but it wouldn't make the Arabic spoken in Najaf a subvariety. "Khuzestani Arabic" is only ever spoken of in an Iranian context when discussing Persian in relation to the Arabic of Khuzestan.

I'm not even sure that somebody from Ahvaz presents with any accent to somebody from Basrah, much less a unique dialect. Moreover, the Arabic spoken in Khuzestan Province isn't a homogenous entity to speak of; you have cities like Khorramshahr and Abadan on the opposite side of border with Iraq, and you have cities like Ahvaz and Dezful in the center and north of the province.

If you have literature which says otherwise then please present it as it will be of interest to me. Irānshahr (talk) 12:52, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I suggest that you take it to the Khuzestani Arabic talk page and possibly mention the issue at, say, Talk:Varieties of Arabic to get more input. Your points may be valid (I wouldn't know) and should be sorted out there. However, as long as there's an article on it, it should remain in the template. --JorisvS (talk) 17:15, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Bhojpuri language[edit]

Bhojpuri language is more similar to Awadhi, Braj and Hindi than Magahi or Maithili. And actually i'm unable to provide any citation due to lack of proper categorisation and consideration by authorities and so there's no published record. But if you want, i can prove my point.. Better let me do. For example, if i've to say, "What is you name?" in bhojpuri, it'd be, "tahaar naam kaa ha?" in awadhi, it is, "tahaar naam kaa hai?" in hindi, it is, "tumhara naam kya hai?" in braj, it is, "tahaar naam kaa hai", and in magadhi, it is "tor naam ki helthi?" in maithili, it'd be, "aahank naam ki chhe?". Now decision is all upon you. And one thing, if there's no evidence on a particular point on net then the view of native speaker can be, should be and must be accepted. Thanks. Mywikieditbh (talk) 14:45, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

If it is true, then why is it so hard for you people to find a reliable source to support your claim, as required by Wikipedia's policy? Wikipedians are not reliable sources, so neither are you. And don't refer to the authorities, because a) they are not a reliable source for classification issues anyway, b) scientific sources (i.e. the only ones that are reliable with respect to classification) do not conform to authorities, and c) they group it under Hindi in the censes. --JorisvS (talk) 13:00, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Croatian[edit]

You've already been informed of WP:ARBMAC, so you should know that this is unacceptable - the first part of the diff may be fine, but the scare quotes are plain old tendentious in that context. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 21:59, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

They were already used for the first mention of "Croatian". The ones I added were for the same purpose. --JorisvS (talk) 22:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
First instance is the translation of the word, so it's not the same. But maybe Joy needs to AGF. — Lfdder (talk) 23:11, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, well, maybe not quite the same, but still similar. There are a bunch of ways people could use "Croatian language", none of which are akin to how people could use, say, "Slovene language" or "Spanish language" (well, many Croatians would like that it could, but reality is at odds with this wish). I added them to indicate this kind of usage, which mirrors hrvatski. If you know a better way to signal this, then please. --JorisvS (talk) 09:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
I've added the description we use in the lede in Croatian language in parentheses. — Lfdder (talk) 10:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. --JorisvS (talk) 10:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
This is hardly the first time I've seen JorisvS use Serbo-Croatian as opposed to Croatian/Bosnian/Serbian, and I have indeed assumed good faith, both then and now. Yet, the later comment is indicative that my assessment of inappropriate negative bias in the scare quores is correct. The article used the term "Croatian language" in a way that was perfectly legitimate and completely orthogonal to whatever one may think about its elevation beyond the notion of a standard language. Using scare quotes in that context was an entirely unnecessary digression that amounted to a trivial piece of flamebait in the context of the unending drama surrounding this topic. The standard of behavior in this topic area is supposed to be higher than that. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
As I've said above, legitimate uses not withstanding, there is a distinction in meaning. We should not withhold that from our readers. Lfdder's edit makes this clearer and so is better. Nevertheless, it could be improved further, because an ethnicity-based paraphyletic grouping of Serbo-Croatian dialects is also called "Croatian". Also note that using "Serbo-Croatian" instead of the euphemistic "Croatian/Bosnian/Serbian" to refer to the language is perfectly good, precise English usage. --JorisvS (talk) 11:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
I think they meant only one of Bosnian / Croatian / Serbian, not they 'euphemistic' BCS for Serbo-Croatian. — Lfdder (talk) 11:15, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
Well, then I'd like to add that it is misleading to use only one of them in a sentence where it remains as true when using 'Serbo-Croatian' instead (like the one the page in question had before my first edit). It singles out one part of a language (standard language or paraphyletic grouping) where such singling out is not warranted. --JorisvS (talk) 11:29, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Do you speak Arabic?[edit]

Hello,

I frequently get people who are requesting help, but have sources in various languages, and so I have to direct them to native speakers of the language when the Machine Translations are not good enough. So do you speak arabic? If so, can I bring some Arabic sources to you ever now and then for help with translation?

Thanks, TheOriginalSoni (talk) 08:42, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

p.s. I suggested the user below to contact you. I hope you don't mind. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 08:53, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't speak Arabic. What makes you think I would? --JorisvS (talk) 13:02, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Your name showed up in the Users who have the Ar-4 userboxes under their subpages. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 13:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
You should check the page before rushing to the talk page. --JorisvS (talk) 13:59, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
And you should not have all the babel userboxes on your sub-page. Editors frequently use those categories to find other editors who speak the language under question. I request you remove those unnecessary userboxes, or subst them. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 14:03, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Why do you rush to someone's talk page before even looking at the page?? --JorisvS (talk) 14:08, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
It was an honest enough assumption/mistake that any editor who has that userbox on a sub-page named userboxes (or boxes) would be speaking the language. Thats the standard all Wikipedia editors I've encountered use (Either the User page or a subpage named userbox). I request you remove the entire list or subst them to not cause any further confusion. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 14:14, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Well, I don't need that page in those categories (and prefer it not to be), but if I subst the templates, then the page won't be updated when a template is. Is there another way to not have these categorize my page? I tried this, but that doesn't seem to work. --JorisvS (talk) 14:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
I've asked another user who might know. Also, many of the templates I see are broken anyways. Substing might be a way to make sure more of them dont get broken. I'm still exploring the no-category option though.. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 14:35, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Try nocat=true than nocat=1 TheOriginalSoni (talk) 14:37, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Okay, so I went through and applied it for you and "most" of the categories have gone away... The rest of them will need the templates checked to make sure there is a line that reads:
|nocat = {{{nocat|<noinclude>true</noinclude>}}}
Let me know if you need help with that and I'll see what I can do. Technical 13 (talk) 14:52, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! --JorisvS (talk) 10:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Request for help on an article[edit]

Hi, i wrote an article with 2 references in arabic that was thought to be an advert. Want you to check it and see if you can approve it coz this is an informative article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Rashwe.com I understood from wikipedia help that issue is that this refernce is thought to be an advert. reference 3 and 6 is in question thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rabsfeir (talkcontribs) 08:47, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

a) I don't speak Arabic. b) Doesn't really seem to be my area of interest here on WP. --JorisvS (talk) 13:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Serbian/Croatian[edit]

On this Wikipedia hard to offend some people and their national languages​​, ignoring the facts and international documents. The fact that the Serbian and Croatian two different standard languages, here it does not matter how big the difference is, it deals with linguistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.227.18.219 (talk) 17:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure (Standard) Serbian and and (Standard) Croatian and two different/distinct standard languages. They are, however, not different enough from each other to make them part of distinct languages altogether. --JorisvS (talk) 10:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

You're wrong[edit]

My name is Mark Mreza, I'm a linguist, I'll explain why you're wrong:

  1. Serbo-Croatian is not language, it's dialect system. It dialect system consisting of four languages: Serbian language, Croatian language, Bosnian language and Montenegrin language. Dialectal system and language are not the same concepts. These are the different languages ​​that were closer together politically, after disintegration of Yugoslavia they are again politically distancing.

The younger generation have significant communication problems, these languages ​​are as different as the Scandinavian languages​​, Czech and Slovak, Bulgarian and Macedonian.

  1. English language has spread from the UK to the U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and there has developed in different variants.

Contact: Institute of Language and Linguistics http://ihjj.hr/kontakt/ --95.168.98.98 (talk) 17:07, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

If you're a linguist, you should know the following: Most, if not all, languages are collections mutually intelligible dialects or "dialect systems". The four 'languages' you give are all based on subdialect of a collection of speech varieties or "dialect" that is called Shtokavian. Collections of speech varieties (dialects) that are less closely related to those are called Chakavian, Kajkavian, and Torlakian. Together these four dialects are called "Serbo-Croatian". You should also be familiar with the typical rate languages change and how quickly they could change: two decades is not enough to create separate languages. You should also understand that languages are not political things and hence politics are irrelevant.
Moreover, you should be familiar with the bunch of words that are different in (some of) these standardized speeches called "Serbian", "Croatian", "Bosnian", and "Montenegrin", the myriad of words that are identical in all of them. You should also be familiar with their near-identical grammars and that the differences that do exist are marginal. --JorisvS (talk) 19:23, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Crosswind kite power[edit]

Thank you for the edit in the article Crosswind kite power. Many editors are building the young article. Any help is good. Thanks. On the matter of "fly crosswind" versus "fly in crosswind" ... please consider. The systems do not fly "in" crosswind, but rather "fly crosswind". Expanding, the systems have wings that are either passively or actively controlled to fly wings not in the ambient downwind direction, but rather controlled actively or passively to fly in a manner that ends up that the motion of the wing tracks across the ambient wind line to form a new "apparent wind" experience just at the wing itself; the new apparent wind is greater than the ambient wind. So, would you mind please reverting your edit and leave "fly crosswind" ... thanks. I will be noticing your change or not in the history. Thanks. 68.123.233.218 (talk) 21:21, 28 June 2013 (UTC) I was in the text and changed it without the "in" already, but aim still to be polite with you. What say you? Thanks. 68.123.233.218 (talk) 21:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, "fly" is an intransitive verb and the only transitive-like use I can find is in something like 'fly an airplane'. The intended difference in meaning is interesting, but is not clear from saying 'fly crosswind' instead of 'fly in crosswind'. I'm wondering about the physical mechanism behind the difference you describe, which would be an important addition to the article. --JorisvS (talk) 21:42, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. Something to think about in your grammar offering here, Joris. "How do we fly; do we "fly wings crosswindingly" or do we "fly crosswind" ... "fly crosswindingly" ? We do fly wings so the result is that the apparent wind experienced at the wing is cross to the ambient wind. Joris, would it then be more correct: "fly crosswindingly" which adverb seems rare? Thanks for your moment. 68.123.233.218 (talk) 22:05, 28 June 2013 (UTC) Or maybe: "fly the wing to achieve crosswind advantages"  ? 68.123.233.218 (talk) 22:07, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
The only adverbial form of "crosswind" I can think of is "in crosswind". "Crosswindingly" is not correct English. When there is a wing in crosswind in steady-state, then the wing must experience an effective force perpendicular to the crosswind, otherwise it would not be steady-state, but change its flight direction. So, why would "fly in crosswind" be less accurate (it does not say "experience crosswind", after all)? --JorisvS (talk) 22:18, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
So, Joris, does a comma come after "i.e." or not? My reference for having the comma is http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_there_a_comma_after_ie_in_a_sentence If I noticed your edit, you wanted the comma off. Is that a Wikipedia style preference? Thanks. 68.123.233.218 (talk) 22:36, 28 June 2013 (UTC) And more strongly: http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/ie-eg-oh-my.aspx where she finds "five of six" style guides requiring the comma after the "i.e." use. She directs not to italicize, as the Latin abbreviation has come to be common English. The WP:MOS ... I could not find the comma in question yet. 68.123.233.218 (talk) 22:50, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Martian Gullies [edit]

Information.svg An article that you have been involved in editing, Martian Gullies , has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. BatteryIncluded (talk) 17:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

August 2013[edit]

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  • an [[Apollo asteroid]] (with the designation ''4015 Wilson–Harrington'') and a periodic [[comet]] (then known as ''Comet Wilson–Harrington'' or ''107P/Wilson–Harrington''. It was initially

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Yes check.svg Fixed. --JorisvS (talk) 16:10, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Mother ship[edit]

'SpaceShipOne connected to its mother ship White Knight' <-That is not ok. The edit that I made to the page was the following: 'SpaceShipOne connected to its companion ship White Knight.' User JorisvS reverted that to the bad original, and yeah that's about all to say. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SpecialPiggy (talkcontribs) 16:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Mother ship is a perfectly normal term for that. --JorisvS (talk) 16:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 11[edit]

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X mark.svg Not fixed yet. That was, unfortunately, intentional. If anyone can disambiguate it, that would be great. I have already tagged it for that purpose. --JorisvS (talk) 13:00, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Fixed. Someone has fixed it. --JorisvS (talk) 08:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Hyphens[edit]

Please stop moving pages and rendering them with improper hyphenation. Information technology consulting, for instance, is not hyphenated "information-technology consulting" because it refers to a branch of consulting having to do with the field of information technology. —Eustress talk 02:49, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Your description is accurate: It is (information technology) consulting, not information (technology consulting). Technically, terms that should be parsed in the former way should be hyphenated to indicate that it should not be parsed in the latter way. --JorisvS (talk) 10:56, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Macedonian dialects[edit]

Part of them are spoken on Bulgarian territory, i.e. they are also recognized by neutral linguists as Bulgarian dialects. Regards.Jingiby (talk) 13:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

The article is about dialects of Macedonian, not about dialects of Bulgarian. If they are Bulgarian dialects, they should not be covered by that article, if they are not (but instead Macedonian, given the isoglosses, not the political borders), then the article should cover them. In both cases, the category Category:Dialects of the Bulgarian language is inappropriate, because the article is simply not about dialects of Bulgarian. --JorisvS (talk) 13:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
Part of them are both: Bulgarian and Macedonian dialects. There is no linguistic border between the eastern Macedonian dialects and southwestern Bulgarian-including those in Greece, i.e. part of them are transitional and the eastern most simply Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 14:00, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
Still, the article title constrains the topic so as to exclude that category. They are also covered at Bulgarian dialects, where that category is appropriate and Category:Dialects of the Macedonian language is inappropriate, given the article titles. --JorisvS (talk) 14:48, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
OK! Jingiby (talk) 17:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Cyrillic script[edit]

I will be returning to look at your revisions in the morning as it is late in the evening here in Australia and I simply don't have the time or the energy to dispute the issues at the moment. Nor do I wish to provoke an edit war which appears to be what you are pushing for. At a glance, your attempts to 'improve' the language are as illiterate as that which you are improving on (although 'type' was correct: I didn't look at the full context immediately). You need to be aware of punctuation as you keep omitting comas. Further to that, don't change 'since' to 'because' as the first word of a new paragraph. Sentences should not be started with a conjunction, etc. If you need to retain the form of the sentence, use 'as'. It is far less obtrusive. More in the morning.

Is English your native language? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:49, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not looking for an edit war (I never am), but when my edits are reverted for the wrong reasons, I tend to revert the revert. "Since" at the start of a sentence is just as much a conjunction as "because". Because with this meaning "because" and "since" are equivalent and "since" has other meanings (so does "as"), whereas "because" does not, "because" is preferable. The story of "while" vs. "whereas" or "although" is similar. I haven't omitted any commas: I haven't removed nor added any. As for "which" vs. "that", "which" is correct in those instances, but so is "that". Because "that" makes it easier to notice that these are restrictive clauses, "that" is preferable. To sum up: None are wrong, but there are better alternatives available. --JorisvS (talk) 11:29, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm not interested in edit wars, either. Neither do I see that it is an issue to be relegated to our personal pages. My main concern is less for the grammar than the integrity of the article itself. Please go to the Cyrillic script talk page to continue discussing the issues that ARE relevant. Thanks. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Books and Bytes: The Wikipedia Library Newsletter[edit]

Books and Bytes

Volume 1, Issue 1, October 2013

Eurasian Eagle-Owl Maurice van Bruggen.JPG

by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs)

Greetings Wikipedia Library members! Welcome to the inaugural edition of Books and Bytes, TWL’s monthly newsletter. We're sending you the first edition of this opt-in newsletter, because you signed up, or applied for a free research account: HighBeam, Credo, Questia, JSTOR, or Cochrane. To receive future updates of Books and Bytes, please add your name to the subscriber's list. There's lots of news this month for the Wikipedia Library, including new accounts, upcoming events, and new ways to get involved...

New positions: Sign up to be a Wikipedia Visiting Scholar, or a Volunteer Wikipedia Librarian

Wikipedia Loves Libraries: Off to a roaring start this fall in the United States: 29 events are planned or have been hosted.

New subscription donations: Cochrane round 2; HighBeam round 8; Questia round 4... Can we partner with NY Times and Lexis-Nexis??

New ideas: OCLC innovations in the works; VisualEditor Reference Dialog Workshop; a photo contest idea emerges

News from the library world: Wikipedian joins the National Archives full time; the Getty Museum releases 4,500 images; CERN goes CC-BY

Announcing WikiProject Open: WikiProject Open kicked off in October, with several brainstorming and co-working sessions

New ways to get involved: Visiting scholar requirements; subject guides; room for library expansion and exploration

Read the full newsletter

Thanks for reading! All future newsletters will be opt-in only. Have an item for the next issue? Leave a note for the editor on the Suggestions page. --The Interior 20:45, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

November 2013[edit]

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Kepler-37 may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "[]"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

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  • 494..452B }}</ref> It has a temperature similar to that of the Sun, but a bit cooler at 5,417 [[Kelvin|K]. It has about half the [[metallicity]] of our Sun. With an age of roughly 6 billion
  • to rule out other astronomical phenomenon mimicking planetary transit with probabilities of error <0.05% (3σ) for each potential planet. Additionally, simulation demonstrated that the proposed

Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 09:55, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Fixed. --JorisvS (talk) 12:04, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Laminal consonant may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "()"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

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  • called "[[retroflex]]" but are properly [[alveolar consonant|alveolar]] or [[postalveolar]]). [[Malayalam language|Malayalam]] has a three-way distinction between laminal dental, apical

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Yes check.svg Fixed. --JorisvS (talk) 13:39, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Epstein-Barr virus pages[edit]

Hello there. Can you please help me fix the nomenclature in the Epstein-Barr virus pages that you edited? For Epstein-Barr virus the accepted nomenclature is to use a hyphen not a dash between Epstein and Barr."Epstein-Barr Virus". Retrieved 12 November 2013.  Likewise, the titles for the EBV non-coding RNA pages you changed were originally taken from the nomenclature in published literature and the only dashes should be in "Epstein-Barr" and nowhere else: For example, Epstein-Barr virus stable intronic sequence RNAs is taken from Ref. 4 in that page (I'm the co-discoverer, along with Joan Steitz, of these RNAs). Even if there should be dashes in the RNA's name (grammatically speaking) I think it's best to leave them out to remain in line with the published scientific literature. I've been trying to change the titles back by moving the pages, but I think I ended up duplicating the ebv-sisRNA page. I'd appreciate your help fixing this. Thank you! Walternmoss (talk) 16:03, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

This is not a matter of COMMONNAME, but of proper punctuation (which need not follow the publications, because they are regularly sloppy in this regard). The Epstein–Barr virus is named after two different people, and should therefore be dashes, not hyphenated. A distinction between an endash and a hyphen is not always made in publications. The hyphens I added are for proper parsing of the meaning: e.g. a large-cell carcinoma is a carcinoma consisting of large cells (because the hyphen indicates that "large" refers to "cell"), whereas "large cell carcinoma" would be a cell carcinoma (whatever that would be) that is large. In specialist literature hyphens in such specialist terms are regularly omitted because specialists are expected to be familiar with them, and hence expected to be able to easily recognize them regardless of a hyphen. However, Wikipedia is a general-audience encyclopedia, where readers cannot be expected to be familiar with the terms, nor be expected to simply parse the terms correctly (for all they know a cell carcinoma could be something that exists). Therefore, to aid our readers in understanding, we should add hyphens wherever they are appropriate. --JorisvS (talk) 09:26, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the detailed explanation. However, I respectfully disagree with using the dash in EBV. Rather than aiding readers it can only cause confusion. It's not just a few sloppy publications: it is every published work on Epstein-Barr virus that I've ever seen or been able to find, including the definitive source on virus nomenclature: The International Committee on the Taxonomy of Viruses (ICTV) – "ICTV Taxonomy History for Human herpesvirus 4". Retrieved 13 November 2013.  The only place I've ever found a dash is in the main wikipedia entry for Epstein-Barr virus. Even if the grammatical rules say it's wrong, the hyphen is in-line with the accepted nomenclature and found in (so far as I know) every scientific publication. Don't you think it might be confusing to have the wikipedia page for Epstein-Barr using nomenclature that contradicts the scientific literature? Imagine some poor undergraduate handing in a report about "Epstein—Barr virus", immediately their professor will be annoyed and will have the red pen out to change this. In my understanding, encyclopedias should report information on a subject, not attempt to "repair" or introduce new scholarship. The dash/hyphen battle might be an interesting subject at one of the ICTV meetings, but is not really appropriate on wikipedia. Walternmoss (talk) 12:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm not saying the publications are sloppy, only their punctuation in this respect. I'll refer you to Wikipedia policy: WP:ENDASH, point 2, specificially the second part. This is not a matter of following the scientific nomenclature, only of punctuation: The name is the same, but the punctuation differs. Note also that it must be an endash (–, as in Epstein–Barr), not an emdash (—, Epstein—Barr). --JorisvS (talk) 10:36, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
I still think that adding the dash is confusing. Don't you think it will be strange/confusing to have almost every scientific paper, text book, etc. using a hyphen and only wikipedia using the endash? It's not even uniformly used in wikipedia: other grammarians have added endashes randomly into EBV-related wikipages...it's a mess (not only for punctuation). I've put in a "requested move" for name changes to the pages on Category:Epstein–Barr virus: to make the punctuation uniform and to name the proteins uniformly. Let's see what "they" say. Another idea would be to query the experts involved in the Wikipedia:WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology and have them weigh in on this. Would this be helpful? Thank you. Walternmoss (talk) 13:51, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
What would be confusing? If elsewhere improper punctuation is used, that should be simply fixed, obviously. --JorisvS (talk) 13:55, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
This is not merely an "academic" dispute. Practically speaking hyphens, endashes, and emdashes might cause problems for search algorithms or for citation/indexing purposes...this seems an important consideration. It is best to have a uniform nomenclature/punctuation for EBV wikipedia articles and one that adheres to that used in the scientific community. Walternmoss (talk) 14:32, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
I agree it is best to have a uniform nomenclature and punctuation. I think it is even better if it is as uniform as possible Wikipedia-wide, though. Therefore, the best thing to do is to have these follow the MoS, and therefore use the endash. As for the searching stuff. This is handled on Wikipedia, as long as there are redirects from the titles with a hyphen to the title with the endash. Google Scholar reads them as equivalent (in fact, as equivalent to a space), so also no problems there if people decide to copy the article title and input it in Google Scholar. I don't of other search engines or indexes, but I have a hard time imagining how using an endash on Wikipedia could seriously hamper those. --JorisvS (talk) 15:51, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure how they'd be handled either, hopefully it would not cause a problem. I did some sleuthing the earliest published instance of "EBV" which (to the best of my knowledge) occurred in 1968 (Henle, et. al, 1968). I was hoping for some hint on this punctuation controversy. They call it "EB virus (EBV)" without a hyphen, or even spelling out the names...so no help here! I thought this was sort of funny.

I don't know if you're following the Requested Move discussion on the EBV main page, but there's been a bit of a breakthrough: in the Wikipedia Manual of Style (WP:ENDASH) it states, "A hyphen is used by default in compounded proper names of single entities." They give several examples of single entities named after two people being joined with a hyphen. As Epstein-Barr virus is the name of this entity, I think the style guide suggests that the hyphen be used, rather than a dash.Walternmoss (talk) 03:01, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

That's really just unclear formulation in our MoS, I'm afraid (otherwise it contradicts itself). As has already been said on Talk:Epstein–Barr virus, it only refers to instances where the entity is no longer seen as specifically named after the two components it was originally named after. --JorisvS (talk) 10:26, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
After a lot of ranting I've altered my position on the en dash in EBV. I apologize if I was abrasive and for taking up such a huge space on your Talk page. Thanks. This has been really informative to me: I've learned a lot about grammar/punctuation, Wikipedia editing, and the history of EBV! I agree with you on using en dashes uniformly to be consistent with Wikipedia style. I've proposed altering the name changes. Some revised names now use hyphenation (not in the EBV part), but I've done my best to take names from publications with usage that correspond to the official gene names (abbreviations/acronyms indexed in the NCBI). I'm also proposing to add redirects from the acronyms (used in the official gene names) to the main articles (with the names spelled out). I hope these revisions can make everyone happy. Sorry again. Walternmoss (talk) 03:18, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
No problem, really, because you were willing to listen to counterarguments and Wikipedia will be better off. --JorisvS (talk) 10:06, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Useful study[edit]

Hi JorisvS, I posted the following at Ivan Štambuk's page, but I think that you, Taivo and kwami could find this useful too when countering Balkan nationalists defecating on the talk pages and articles involving BCS.

--- "Hi Ivan, I was directed to a paper describing an experiment done a few years ago by an American linguist, John Bailyn, concerning Croatian and Serbian. He basically had Croats translate several Serbian texts and found that the results support the single-language hypothesis on analysis of grammar alone because of the lack of modification done to the texts. No doubt this is another blow to the nationalist braintrust on Croatian Wikipedia that continually resorts to ad hominems and non-linguistic argumentation to preserve the image of Croatian and Serbian being different languages like Dutch and German or Danish and Swedish. The study is at https://linguistics.stonybrook.edu/sites/default/files/uploads/u5/publications/JSLBCS2.pdf" ---

LAuburger (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:28, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Great! Very useful. --JorisvS (talk) 10:41, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Northern Basque Country[edit]

Hi JorisvS, Northern Basque Country is not a usual term for Iparralde. There is a Basque country in Spain (Hegoalde). Northern Basque Country does not appear in Wikipedia either, it is French Basque Country. Calling the 3 provinces Northern Basque Country is confusing to the vast majority of non-basque people, therefore I suggest it be replaced by basque provinces in france (4 words) rather than Northern Basque Country (3 words). Exurbis67 (talk) 20:02, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The article French Basque Country says "The French Basque Country or Northern Basque Country ...", so, no, it is not confusing. In fact, the Basque article itself is located at "Ipar Euskal Herria", which is "Northern Basque Country" when translated. I do not object to rewording it to say "French Basque Country", though. --JorisvS (talk) 21:31, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
I think French Basque Country is clearer for the vast majority of the planet, so I would go with that.

Exurbis67 (talk) 16:42, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

2000 Herschel[edit]

Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to 2000 Herschel, without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear constructive and has been reverted. Please make use of the sandbox if you'd like to experiment with test edits. Thank you. Carbon6 talk 02:18, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

It was without a source and I could not verify it, and it looked really weird (the significant figures were way off). I could have said that in the edit summary, but it was a quick shot for the reasons I've mentioned. Note that your readdition with the 'source' for your own calculation has been reverted for being OR and for being way off. -JorisvS (talk) 10:27, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Officially banal language question[edit]

Hi! Is it really perceived non-Anglophone writing "the officially first"? Silly question, but I gotta know. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 18:54, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, no. It would be "officially the first". But that does not matter here; I reverted it because it is a matter of logic anyway: It is irrelevant if according to some official source one dictionary would be the first (it can then be simply the first or not the first; then "official" can be left out entirely). It can be the first dictionary that has been officially published (an "official dictionary"). In the latter situation, it is best to simply say "the first official dictionary". --JorisvS (talk) 19:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Great, thanks, I'm liking your fine-tuned taste for details! Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 19:15, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration request[edit]

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Serbo-Croatian infobox dispute and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

Thanks,--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Library Survey[edit]

As a subscriber to one of The Wikipedia Library's programs, we'd like to hear your thoughts about future donations and project activities in this brief survey. Thanks and cheers, Ocaasi t | c 15:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Tsakonian *r[edit]

Noticed your edit to Tsakonian. I always wondered about the r–z correspondence in Latin. You think it might have been s.t. like this? — kwami (talk) 19:52, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Could be, it sounds plausible, but I wouldn't really know. --JorisvS (talk) 19:54, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration request[edit]

The arbitration request naming you as a party has been [21] declined by the Committee. The comments at the request may be useful in moving forward. For the Arbitration Committee, Rschen7754 22:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Upsilon Andromedae[edit]

You might want to check your last edit to Upsilon Andromedae; it looks like you removed more than you might have intended. A lot of categories which look like they were still applicable, and no comment indicating they were obsolete. Regards, Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 22:01, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I simply moved them to its category page. --JorisvS (talk) 08:39, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
That doesn't seem to be the pattern used in other stars - categories like Bayer objects, Flamsteed Objects, ... are present in the star article itself. The change doesn't seem obvious to me - Is there a new policy to move these categories? Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 16:39, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
It just seemed to make sense to me to have them at the system's category, because these numbers were assigned to the stars long ago and would apply as much to the entire system as to just the star. Do you think it makes more sense to have them at the star's article? --JorisvS (talk) 18:14, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
Pretty much, yes. The category is likely only to be found by someone looking for pointers to the components, the star article itself is where I'd expect any references to catalogues to appear. It would avoid the disconnect in the draper/flamsteed/etc references where categories and articles appear in different lists. Indeed, I'm not sure a category of upsilon andromedae makes much sense, it seems more likely that an subsection "Upsilon Andromedae components" would make more sense for that particular collection of references. Regards, Tarl.Neustaedter (talk) 18:54, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
You could just move them back. I don't particularly care where they are. I don't understand what you mean about the category itself. To me it makes as much sense as the category Solar System. --JorisvS (talk) 19:13, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Kabardian language[edit]

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. Estlandia (woof!) 10:13, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Don't be an idiot. You're replacing a referenced figure with an unreferenced one, and now you're "warning" me for reverting you? --JorisvS (talk) 10:20, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Mmm, let's compare notes...[edit]

Hello,

I am kinda new to making edit in wikipedia. I am interesting Astronomy... But, I trying to cleanup the section about asteroids in the main, Category:Main Belt asteroid stubs. 17,502 articles/stubs. They need to be put somewhere else??

Sincerely, Pliming..

P.S. Trying to be helpful.... Pliming (talk) 09:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

No problem being new. Stubs are very short articles. This article is longer than a stub. If those articles are indeed very short (i.e. stubs), then they should be tagged as such. I doubt that we can or should be more specific than a general stub category of articles about asteroids in the asteroid belt. However, any stub should preferably be expanded. If you want to clean up articles about Solar System objects, you may want to look at this clean-up edit of mine. Although it is really short now, it is still better than it was. For example, it is an asteroid, no matter whether it would be officially catalogued as such; moreover, all asteroids are minor planets, but not all minor planets are asteroid (e.g. Pluto is a minor planet (and dwarf planet), but not an asteroid). Also, it is best to refer to the asteroid belt as such, and not "main belt" (and certainly not with caps like "Main Belt" or so), because it is the only belt of asteroids in the Solar System. If you have any other questions, I'm happy to answer them. --JorisvS (talk) 10:43, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Mmmm, Ok…. You, are right. We currently have only one asteroid belt. But we also have the Kuiper belt. Has for an asteroid being classified also a minor planet. That does not make sense. It should be one or the other. Not both. I think the, International Astronomical Union, messed us up, when they reclassified Pluto as a dwarf planet. And, they have not got around to dealing with the asteroids. That is not your fault. Pliming (talk) 16:30, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
I like the article, List of minor planets. Because it does a good job of listing the minor planets/asteroids. Pliming (talk) 17:10, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Not all minor planets being asteroids makes perfect sense: just like that all chihuahuas are dogs, but not all dogs are chihuahuas. As for Pluto being a dwarf planet: Check out the table here, and note the enormous gap between the planets and the dwarf planets, as expressed in two distinct, but related parameters: a body's orbital cleanliness μ and a body's scattering ability Λ. Nature has provided a very clear distinction between these two populations. --JorisvS (talk) 19:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I see your point. But what about a dwarf planet, also being classified as a minor planet. People can and do get confused by these terms. I am no expert by any means. I am just interested in the subject. What do you think about it.Pliming (talk) 05:21, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
All dwarf planets are also minor planets (note that all have minor-planet numbers). A minor planet is everything that is not a star, planet, satellite, or comet (check out to which populations minor planets can belong at that page; the second sentence). In turn, all minor planets and comets are small Solar System objects. --JorisvS (talk) 08:48, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Mmm, ah. How long or short of a article would you, consider a stub?? Why are some articles stubs, and not others. What's its purpose?
As for what is or not a minor planet. I will go by the articles, you mentioned, When, when I catalogue these objects. Thank you. Pliming (talk) 17:42, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
A paragraph with at most a few references. See also WP:Stub and User:Grutness/Croughton-London rule of stubs--JorisvS (talk) 18:34, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Hey, To let you know, I messed up the article on, 22_Kalliope, badly. Sorry. I tried to delete a dead link. I am trying to help, but not doing a good job, yet??Pliming (talk) 21:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I restored the infobox. I'll have a look at the dead link later. --JorisvS (talk) 22:16, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok, Thank you Pliming (talk) 07:17, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Note on models for Fomalhaut b[edit]

I don't understand what you think is unclear about the models that Galicher et al. in the "Recovery/independent confirmation with Hubble and further controversy" section. The text is almost verbatim from the paper abstract and seems perfectly clear to me. They consider two models for Fomalhaut b's emission, both involving dust, not thermal emission from a planet atmosphere. In one case, the dust is 'circumplanetary', gravitationally bound to an unseen, lower-mass planet in a disk-like geometry. In the second case, they try to explain "Fomalhaut b" as a collision between two 50km-sized Kuiper belt objects (in other words Fomalhaut b is 'just a dust cloud'). They compute the collision frequency of two 50 km exo-KBOs given the optical depth of Fomalhaut's debris ring and the orbital timescale, arguing that such collisions happen within the belt every few centuries. 2632cgn (talk) 19:54, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, I seem to have misplaced the tag when I restored it after you replaced with a reference. It was meant for the "not, strictly speaking, a directly imaged planet" part. Sorry. --JorisvS (talk) 21:37, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Got it. But I guess I don't understand the clarification needed there either. By "not, strictly speaking, a directly imaged planet" the paper means that we are not seeing thermal emission from a planet (i.e. we are not seeing photons from the atmosphere of a planet). This is unlike the case for HR 8799 bcde, beta Pictoris b, ROXs 42Bb and the like. Rather, we are seeing dust surrounding an unseen planet. Does that make sense to you? 2632cgn (talk) 21:45, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
That makes sense, but what about the images under the gallery? They show a brighter, moving spot that would be b. --JorisvS (talk) 21:05, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

2013[edit]

Space Barnstar 1e.png The Space Barnstar
For outstanding contributions and editing on articles about space. Fotaun (talk) 02:15, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
WikiProject Barnstar Hires.png The WikiProject Barnstar
For contributions to various projects and related articles. Fotaun (talk) 02:15, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
Tireless Contributor Barnstar.gif The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
For your large contributions to knowledge and editing. Fotaun (talk) 02:15, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! --JorisvS (talk) 20:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Category:NN Serpentis[edit]

Category:NN Serpentis, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. StringTheory11 (t • c) 19:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thank you for your useful edits to the Italian Wikiproject pages. Speling12345 (talk) 5:00, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Voiceless palatal fricative[edit]

Hi! I am the person behind the audio (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:13-12-22_voiceless_palatal_fricative.ogg) that you have recently deleted from the voiceless palatal fricative page. I've been trying to get to the right sound of this particular phoneme for quite some time, and I tried pronouncing it approximating down from the voiceless palatal stop, which - unlike the fricative - does occur in my first language (that is, Slovak). Could you please help me identify the sound that I actually made while going for the palatal fricative? It would be greatly appreciated, as I am currently trying to - so to speak - get my IPA sounds right. Thank you and have a nice day! :)) Edralis 10:03, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

A palatalized laminal voiceless alveolar fricative. According to voiceless palatal stop, the voiceless palatal plosive of Slovak is actually alveolar, which likely means that it would be precisely a palatalized laminal voiceless alveolar plosive, and that you kept the place of articulation exactly the same. The voiceless palatal fricative is basically a fronted voiceless velar fricative and sounds most like it, but a bit mixed with that of the voiceless postalveolar fricative. It exists in some English pronunciations of "hue", as in the sound file at wikt:hue. --JorisvS (talk) 15:07, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, that is indeed a very helpful explanation. Thank you for your time and patience! :) Edralis 15:04, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
You're welcome. --JorisvS (talk) 11:51, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 7[edit]

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Yes check.svg Fixed. --JorisvS (talk) 09:58, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

January 2014[edit]

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  • dialects|High German dialects]]''' ({{lang-de|Hochdeutsche Dialekte}}) comprise the [[variety (linguistics|varieties]] of [[German language|German]] spoken south of the [[Benrath line|Benrath]]

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Yes check.svg Fixed. --JorisvS (talk) 10:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

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  • from Turkic (like "kuzga", "shish"), belonging to the universal Caucasian stratum of borrowings) and most recently Russian (modern terms, like computer – "kamputar", television – "telvideni",
  • prefers the use of Cyrillic, whereas the [[Chechen Republic of Ichkeria|separatists']] prefer Latin).

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Yes check.svg Fixed, and more. --JorisvS (talk) 10:52, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

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  • language|Montenegrin]]. All other [[Serbo-Croatian dialects]] are also spoken by ethnic Croats ([[Chakavian dialect|Chakavian]], [[Kajkavian dialect|Kajkavian]], and [[Torlakian dialect|Torlakian]

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Yes check.svg Fixed. --JorisvS (talk) 13:16, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Kabardian language[edit]

Please tell me, what is wrong now? I didn't use any colors - all I did was make the table look more neet. What do you have against me!? יהודה שמחה ולדמן (talk) 23:07, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I do not have anything against you. It simply does not improve the table. The table at that article has been in the standard layout used all over phonology sections in Wikipedia. Using colors or not is not the problem, though. The problem is arbitrarily changing the layout of a standardized table. We were discussing any possible improvements at Talk:Adyghe language, and then you decided to change the table at another article instead of discussing. You should be discussing it. --JorisvS (talk) 09:05, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Changes to the Manual of Style[edit]

Hello there! Regarding your edit on the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, could you please point me into the place on MOS' talk page where you've discussed those changes, and reached a required consensus? As we know, all non-trivial changes to the MOS are required to be discussed first. Also, the language you've used could be improved; for example, numbers were used instead of spelling them out. Please advise. — Dsimic (talk) 12:51, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Great, a piece of constructive criticism! The place is Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Hyphens instead of endashes. It clearly states the problem to be fixed in the beginning of the discussion. --JorisvS (talk) 15:10, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for providing a link to the thread on MOS' talk page, and please let me spend some time digesting this quite lengthy discussion. — Dsimic (talk) 22:38, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Ok, got through it. :) Well, you did it all right, by writing a new wording proposal and putting it up for voting; though, the issue is there was no clear consensus about that proposal. I'd suggest you split the new wording proposal into another (sub)section on the MOS talk page, in order to attract more comments through voting. I know it's a painful process, but changing the MOS is like changing the constitution of a state. :) Hope you agree. — Dsimic (talk) 05:41, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Okay, thanks for the advice. Will do. :) --JorisvS (talk) 11:41, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Mutual intelligibility[edit]

Hi JorisvS! One quick point. When we say mutual intelligibility between two languages (suppose A and B), we essentially mean that both the languages (A and B) are understood by speakers of both the languages. If speaker of language A does not understand language B, it is referred to as asymmetric intelligibility and NOT mutual intelligibility. And since the table says about mutual intelligibility, hence it should be mentioning the languages relation only once. Shouldn't it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 7Sidz (talkcontribs) 19:56, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Okay, you've got a point there. There is a problem with cleaning up the list, though: There are combinations such as Danish–Swedish–Norwegian, where there are varying degrees of intelligibility. How could we remove the duplicates from the list and at the same time still clearly indicate these? --JorisvS (talk) 22:28, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Contractions[edit]

I see you often edit contractions out of articles, as if it's an end in itself, but that often leaves the article sounding stilted and artificial. An example is your latest edit at 1 Ceres. I don't think anyone would ever say it that way, so when I read it, the two words "did not" sound like the point of the sentence rather than just the grammar for the point. — kwami (talk) 22:21, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

WP:CONTRACTIONS says about contractions that they should almost all of the time be avoided, because they are too informal for an encyclopedia. That's how I assessed that part. It also suggests rephrasing the whole sentence as a possible solution. --JorisvS (talk) 07:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for advice on spotlight effect[edit]

I have been working with my history of psychology classes to improve Wikipedia psychology content. Back in May you gave some good advice on this article. I missed it until recently, because I had not checked back on my talk page. (I didn't realize how important this is until recently.) I will be sure to pass it along to my present class. I hope to find some students who will fix the article so it meets Wikipedia standards. James Council (talk) 20:56, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

That would be great! --JorisvS (talk) 07:17, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

re edit to Botlikh language[edit]

When I last looked at the Botlikh language page, the info box was full of nonsense and the references section had an error. The previous version of the page was working so I undid your edit. Perhaps the some template was temporarily broken. —Coroboy (talk) 11:06, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

The only thing your edit did was change the stub tag back to a more generic one[22], so it didn't affect the infobox, nor any references. Nor was it my edit that you undid. The template template:NEC-lang-stub hasn't been edited since its creation almost a month ago. --JorisvS (talk) 11:11, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
After your comment I checked the history of that template too. I saw that it hadn't changed. That's why I said "some template was temporarily broken" - I'm not going to try chasing down all the templates, sub-templates, etc. that might have been called from Botlikh page to see if something was being changed somewhere at that time. I just saw a badly messed up page, tried the previous version which was ok and did an undo. What else do you suggest I could have done? —Coroboy (talk) 11:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Well, what I would do is check if I can fix the problem by looking at the template used in the article, instead of hiding the problem. I think you would have found that the problem was unrelated to that template in this case. --JorisvS (talk) 11:39, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
And then what? I don't have the expertise to go mucking around inside of templates. I can fix an obvious mess by reverting to a version which works. Next time I see a mess, I'll leave it for you experts to fix. Nuff. —Coroboy (talk) 11:47, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
No, of course. You might have seen that the problem had gone away, you might still have undone that edit with a better-informed edit summary. I don't know, it would have depended on what you would have seen. I am no template expert either, I just try to do what I can, just like you. I only take a slightly different approach to it. --JorisvS (talk) 12:17, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

astro boxes[edit]

Since you've been cleaning up the formatting in the planet/asteroid info boxes, I've noticed that quite a few have " rather than a proper under the param 'Angular diameter'. I've fixed the ones I've noticed, but haven't gone looking for them. Just in case you're looking for things to do :) — kwami (talk) 18:41, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Heh. I'll keep an eye out for those, although I do ave more than enough things to do. --JorisvS (talk) 21:07, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Croatian language[edit]

I've left a message on the Talk:Croatian language. I would appreciate if you could elaborate on your recent edit. Shokatz (talk) 13:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Spectral type[edit]

Hi, I see you've changed B-dash-V to B-minus-V. Do we have an article on what these mean? Should probably link to it from the box. — kwami (talk) 18:02, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

These are used indicated an object's color. If I have understood them correctly, they mean something like blue band minus green (visual) band. Although, I don't quite understand why then red Sedna has a positive V−R=0.78 (maybe the absolute value?), but I haven't been able to make sense of these in any other way. --JorisvS (talk) 19:12, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Singer-Brewster[edit]

I think it's kind of weird what you did with 105P/Singer-Brewster, and asking for trouble. It seems to me that we need in situations like this to more clearly distinguish IAU-formatted names, like "105P/Singer Brewster" from more normal names as styled for WP audience, as "Comet Singer-Brewster". And the discussion of en dash versus hyphen in the article is probably not sourceable to a reliable source, so should be left out. Dicklyon (talk) 08:50, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, I do see quite a few books with "105P/Singer-Brewster". Not sure how to interpret the intent there. Dicklyon (talk) 08:52, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Maybe they don't blindly follow the weird IAU interpunction? That said, it seems like a sensible idea to move the article to Comet Singer-Brewster; after all, what is the point in having the weird (for the layman) "105P/" in the name if it's so easy to avoid? The IAU hyphen vs. endash stuff is something people will likely wonder about when they notice it the difference. Maybe we should move it to the talk page instead? --JorisvS (talk) 09:32, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Almost every other comet uses a hyphen errr horizontal thingie, instead of a space.
For example 1655 Comas Sola is named after Comas Solà, also known as "Comas i Solà" ("i" is "and" in Catalan language). But a small number of sources still manages to put a hyphen on his comet name and on his surname. Does it mean that it really has a hyphen? Of course not!
About removing the RS from the article.... I don't even know what to say at that. Really, please, don't do that again.
Also, unmoved. Try a WP:RM if you feel really lucky. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:31, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Then try being consistent in following the weird IAU interpunction. This is not currently the case. But it's good that you've managed to call it 'horizontal thingie', because that's all the IAU can make of it. --JorisvS (talk) 19:38, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

February 2014[edit]

Information icon Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. You appear to be engaged in an edit war with one or more editors according to your reverts at Epsilon Indi. Although repeatedly reverting or undoing another editor's contributions may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, and often creates animosity between editors. Instead of edit warring, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.

If editors continue to revert to their preferred version they are likely to be blocked from editing. This isn't done to punish an editor, but to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring. In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. While edit warring on Wikipedia is not acceptable in any amount, breaking the three-revert rule is very likely to lead to a block. Thank you. StringTheory11 (t • c) 16:34, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Not really, just an anon who is adamant on restoring his own version (which I have merely (re)copyedited) every few days and does not give any reason for reverting my copyediting. --JorisvS (talk) 16:38, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, the anon should certainly provide a reason, and I've warned them for edit warring too. However, that doesn't change the fact that it is still edit warring, and it would be beneficial to all for you to take it to the talk page. BTW, I don't have a strong opinion on the issue. StringTheory11 (t • c) 16:48, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
There is currently not much for me to discuss, though I suppose the next time such a thing happens I could take it to the other user's talk page. --JorisvS (talk) 16:52, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

s/(Bosnian|Croatian|Serbian)/Serbo-Croatian/g[edit]

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 09:24, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

But....that would substitute Serbo-Serbo-Croatian for Serbo-Croatian. ;/ — Lfdder (talk) 12:39, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

re Once in HE[edit]

Re your comment in List of gravitationally rounded objects of the Solar System, see this article on Psyche. Tbayboy (talk) 00:28, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. --JorisvS (talk) 10:46, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

secondaire[edit]

Hello, this pronunciation is [sœɡõdæːχ] or [sœɡõdɐɛ̯χ] ? Fort123 (talk) 16:26, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

It's hard to tell. Fort123 (talk) 17:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

At first inspection it's definitely more like the former, though not quite. The "front vowels" sound more mid than front to me, so it sounds more like [sɞɡõdɜːχ] to me. The last vowel also doesn't sound quite "stable", but that may be due to the tongue having to start to make a uvular. --JorisvS (talk) 16:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

Original Barnstar Hires.png The Original Barnstar
Although we don't always agree on everything related to astronomical objects, I just want to say that I do appreciate the work you do to keep their articles in good shape. StringTheory11 (t • c) 05:57, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Thank you! --JorisvS (talk) 07:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Edits on T cell[edit]

You're welcome! I appreciate your having extended the kind gesture in thanking me. NewEnglandDr (talk) 22:07, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

tempête[edit]

This pronunciation is [tãpeɪ̯t] or [tãpɐɪ̯t] ? The last diphthong is not very clear. Fort123 (talk) 23:36, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

The latter, with the /ã/ centralized. --JorisvS (talk) 10:27, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

type o[edit]

why? --Dana60Cummins (talk) 19:38, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Why what? --JorisvS (talk) 19:41, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

hiver[edit]

This pronunciation is [ivaɛ̯χ], [ivæɛ̯χ] or [ivæχ] ? Fort123 (talk) 13:14, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

There's definitely some [æ] in it. Furthermore, it sounds somewhat unstable, but the second component of the diphthong does not sound quite like [ɛ]. Maybe it is more like [ə], so [ivæə̯χ]. --JorisvS (talk) 16:37, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

This one is [paɛ̯ʃ] or [pæɪ̯ʃ] ? Fort123 (talk) 18:12, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Closest to [päɘ̯ʃ] or roughly [päɪ̯ʃ]. --JorisvS (talk) 18:47, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

commonest[edit]

True, there's nothing wrong with "most common". But what's wrong with "commonest"? -- Hoary (talk) 12:08, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

No editor of en:WP can be without a copy of CGEL at arm's reach. The matter comes up on pp. 1583-1584, but disappointingly the authors say that rules of thumb are of only minor help and the matter is for the most part lexically determined. So I offer you three Guardian stories: "Sam Murphy reveals the seven commonest mistakes runners make", "Awakening to the commonest film title", "Stress now commonest cause of long-term sick leave". -- Hoary (talk) 12:31, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

The point is not as much as what's wrong with it, as it is what form is more usual. "Most common" is the more usual form. --JorisvS (talk) 12:51, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
So "most common" is commoner than "commonest". If you're comfortabler with the commoner than with the less common, that's your preference; but is this some new MoS guideline that I haven't heard of? (I really don't know as I seldom hang out in those parts; I'm a mere commoner.) Incidentally, "while" is hugely commoner than "whilst" (even allowing for inflation of the former by tokens of the noun and verb "while"); but if you start converting the latter to the former you'll have various Brit editors frothing at the mouth with indignation. (I will not be among them.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:34, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Canadian French pronunciation[edit]

This pronunciation is between [lezɑːχ] and [lezɒːχ]? Fort123 (talk) 16:42, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

That sounds about right. --JorisvS (talk) 17:57, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Neither [lezɑːχ] nor [lezɒːχ]? Fort123 (talk) 18:08, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
It sounds indeed less rounded than [ɒː]. It could be written as [lezɒ̜ːχ] or [lezɑ̹ːχ]. --JorisvS (talk) 18:16, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

This one sounds like [tɛɪ̯t] or [taɪ̯t]? Fort123 (talk) 19:48, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

The former. --JorisvS (talk) 20:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
[tæɪ̯t] or [tɐɪ̯t] are possible too? Fort123 (talk) 17:19, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
It sounds more front to me the more often I hear it. You're right, it sounds a bit more open than typical [ɛ], so [tæɪ̯t] would seem to be more accurate. Moreover, the vowel is definitely not fully front, more like near-front, so [tæ̈ɪ̯t] seems most accurate. --JorisvS (talk) 17:53, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Last time, you told me that it's [sɞɡõdɜːχ], but [sɞɡõdɐːχ] is possible too? Fort123 (talk) 11:38, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Nah, it doesn't sound open enough for [ɐ]. --JorisvS (talk) 11:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
[sɞɡõdɜɛ̯χ]? Fort123 (talk) 14:04, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't hear much of a diphthong. --JorisvS (talk) 14:43, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Hmm, or maybe something like [sɞɡõdɛ̈ɜ̯χ], starting near-front and going to mid. --JorisvS (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

This one is [vɐ̯ɛχ]? Fort123 (talk) 19:16, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

More like [væə̯χ] or [væɜ̯χ], I'd say. The first vowel sound is definitely the nucleus and sounds pretty front. --JorisvS (talk) 20:10, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
But I heard an extra-short [ɐ̯] before the [æ]. Maybe [vɐ̯æə̯χ]? Fort123 (talk) 11:25, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
You don't hear the extra-short [ɐ]? Fort123 (talk) 19:36, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
Not really. It could be that what you're hearing is simply the effect the consonant ([v]) has on the color of the following vowel. And although this could technically be transcribed as something along the line of what you're proposing, this would just mean that any and all monophthongs in syllables such as CVC would be triphthongs and transcribed as such and that diphthongs would be quadruphthongs (is that even a word?), etc.. Such effects of adjacent consonants on vowels is unavoidable, because the mouth has to transition from a state to make a consonant to a state to make a vowel (or vice-versa), and the intermediate states associated with such a transition also sound somewhat differently. --JorisvS (talk) 07:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

This one is [tɒːχ], [tɑɔ̯χ] or [tɒɔ̯χ]? Fort123 (talk) 14:11, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

The middle, I'd say. --JorisvS (talk) 14:15, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

It's [tãpɐɪ̯t] or [tãmpɐɪ̯t]? The [m] is pronounced or not? Fort123 (talk) 20:57, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

There is no [m] of significance, though possibly the coordination of the closing of the nasal pharynx and the closing of the lips is not perfect, and hence the [p] might be prenasalized very slightly ([tãᵐpɐɪ̯t]). But such phenomena are the rule, not the exception. --JorisvS (talk) 11:07, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

This one is [balɛ̃ːnᵊ], [balẽːnᵊ] or [balɛ̃ẽ̯nᵊ]? Fort123 (talk) 16:13, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

It starts off with a nasalized version of something like [e] and continues on to a very thick [j], but the following [n] is not thick, and there is no extra-short vowel following the [n], so maybe [balẽːjˠn]. I also hear something about the [l]... Maybe it is because everything is nasalized, so [bãl̃ẽːj̃n]. --JorisvS (talk) 16:30, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Maybe it's a [ɫ]? Fort123 (talk) 18:50, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
I considered that, but it doesn't quite sound as 'thick', cf. the sound file at velarized alveolar lateral approximant. --JorisvS (talk) 19:06, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

This one is [ɑ̃sɐɛ̯tχ] or [ɒ̃sɐɛ̯tχ]? Fort123 (talk) 23:08, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The first syllable is [ɑ̃] or [ɒ̃]? Fort123 (talk) 13:27, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

It's difficult to determine the exact degree of rounding, but it sounds closer to [ɑ̃] to me. --JorisvS (talk) 14:21, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

This one is [kʰɛɪ̯s], [kʰaɪ̯s] or [kʰɐɪ̯s]? Fort123 (talk) 17:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

[kʰɐɪ̯s]. --JorisvS (talk) 17:57, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Meridional French[edit]

This one is [kã] or [kaŋ]? Fort123 (talk) 16:22, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

[kãŋ]. The [ŋ] is very clearly there. If you'd want to be very precise, the velar are fronted (so are pre-velar) and the vowel is front, so [k̟ã̟ŋ̟]. --JorisvS (talk) 17:31, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

template[edit]

FYI, re. this,[23] if you put "|u=km" in the template, it will prevent separation at line breaks. — kwami (talk) 06:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks. --JorisvS (talk) 07:45, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome[edit]

You are welcome. Hyacinth (talk) 20:49, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

caisse[edit]

This one is [kʲɛi̯s] or [kʲæi̯s]? Fort123 (talk) 15:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

[kʲʰɛi̯s]. --JorisvS (talk) 17:16, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

This one is [fäɪ̯t] or [fɑɪ̯t]? Fort123 (talk) 22:54, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

[fɐɪ̯tʰ]. --JorisvS (talk) 08:43, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

This one sounds like [ɚ̃ kʲi.lɔ̜.maɪ̯tχ] or [ɚ̃ kʲi.lɔ̜.mæɪ̯tχ] ? Fort123 (talk) 20:11, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

[ɚ̃ kʲi.lɔ̜.maɪ̯tχ] ? Fort123 (talk) 12:39, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

More like [ɐ]. --JorisvS (talk) 14:07, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

2013 FY27[edit]

I like how you re-worded 2013 FY27 for the technical astro crowd, but I am concerned that readers will think that means that it is currently the 9th brightest TNO when it has an apparent magnitude of 22 as a result of being 80AU from the Sun. -- Kheider (talk) 21:33, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, I missed that part. I was thinking about rewording it to "ninth-intrinsically-brightest", but that could also be confused with albedo. --JorisvS (talk) 07:50, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Artos[edit]

This time you've got it right.
Last time you hadn't... ;-)
Thanatos|talk|contributions 09:06, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that thanks to your revert. --JorisvS (talk) 09:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:ANI discussion[edit]

Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Reporting User:Lighthouse01. Thank you. CodeCat (talk) 21:23, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

buy[edit]

It sounds like [baɪ̯] or [b̥aɪ̯] ? Fort123 (talk) 18:50, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't really sound voiced. [b̥aɪ̯] sounds about accurate. --JorisvS (talk) 20:34, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

peut-être[edit]

This pronunciation is [pœtɑɪ̯tʀ̥] or [pø̞tɑɪ̯tʀ̥]? Fort123 (talk) 23:26, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

[pœtäɪ̯tχ]. --JorisvS (talk) 08:19, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Now, I think that [tãpæɪ̯t] is more accurate than [tãpɐɪ̯t], is it true? Fort123 (talk) 15:59, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

You are not sure? Fort123 (talk) 20:37, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Not really, no. It may be that what you're hearing (and what I heard too) is that the vowel is not quite central, but near-central. --JorisvS (talk) 09:32, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks[edit]

Hey, great thanks for your corrections in Khinalug people article. I did translation from ruwiki, and was going to ask someone for the help in checking my errors. Bests, Ali-al-Bakuvi (talk) 13:45, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I've now looked at the rest of it, too. There is one word I could not interpret in this context: consonance (see tag). If you could elaborate it, I could then clarify it. --JorisvS (talk) 14:05, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Added in the Talk page. Bests, Ali-al-Bakuvi (talk) 14:16, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Bosnian language[edit]

"Language is a living thing. We can feel it changing. Parts of it become old: they drop off and are forgotten. New pieces bud out, spread into leaves, and become big branches, proliferating." (brainyquote.com) What do you mean "Not the same Bosnian language."? Bosnian started somehow to become what it is today. --WikiLite91 (talk) 15:52, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

The only coherent entity out there that can be called "Bosnian" is (modern) Standard Bosnian (which is the topic of the article). Current day-to-day speech by Bosniaks is only "Bosnian" in that it is spoken by Bosniaks, and is often more distinct internally than from the day-to-day speech of Croatians or Serbians. A dictionary from several hundred years ago cannot be about (modern) Standard Bosnian, but only about the speeches of Bosniaks of the current time, which even then formed no coherent entity. The right article for this would be Serbo-Croatian. --JorisvS (talk) 20:31, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Ok then, I'll make article about Old Bosnian, if you say so. --WikiLite91 (talk) 06:44, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I doubt that makes a coherent topic, no more than, amoung others, 'Croatian language' as the "modern day-to-day speech by ethnic Croats", 'Serbian language' as the "modern day-to-day speech by ethnic Serbs", or 'Bosnian language' as the "modern day-to-day speech by ethnic Bosniaks". It should simply go into the history section at Serbo-Croatian. --JorisvS (talk) 11:56, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I realize what you're saying. But, at that time (year 1632) name Serbo-Croatian didn't exist. That name appeared maybe 50 yrs ago as political name. We are witnesses that names as Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian have longer history. --WikiLite91 (talk) 13:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Articles are not about names, but about concepts, so whether a name existed at some time or not is quite irrelevant. (the term "Serbo-Croatian" actually appeared in the 19th century, but, as I said, that's irrelevant to this question). --JorisvS (talk) 13:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Come on man, why do you keep Serbo-Croatian as living language. You can nowhere find it's use today. --WikiLite91 (talk) 13:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Because it is. In Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, and Montenegro it is alive and kicking, spoken by many millions of people. It may not locally be referred to by "Serbo-Croatian", but terms or names are irrelevant: There is a common language spoken in said countries, regardless of what it is called, and regardless of feelings of natives. Put a Serb somewhere in Croatia, and he'll communicate just fine with the locals, so by definition they speak the same language, regardless of ethnicity, history, wishful thinking, etc. --JorisvS (talk) 14:12, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Again, I have knowledge about that. But no Serb will tell you he speaks Serbo-Croatian, nor Croat, nor Bosniak. And history about language is more than relevant to stay on Wikipedia. "Old Bosnian", as you say, is spoken on today's land of Bosnia and it has bigger factor than Serbo-Croatian. So history about Muhamed Hevaji Uskufi Bosnevi should be on Bosnian language site, not Serbo-Croat. Do you mind if at that times Bosnian was not booked somewhere (by ISO std.)? I still cannot find Latin language here, but it has article and history here. Or you are trying to change history? Also I realized that whatever I say, you will abandon, and proove me wrong with some weak refs. Are you Serb or Croat? --WikiLite91 (talk) 15:38, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Again, this is not about terms or self-designations. Whether a Serb will tell he speaks Serbian, not Serbo-Croatian, does not affect that the language, as defined as a set of mutually intelligible dialects, is Serbo-Croatian (it could have been called something else (in English), but this does not affect the facts). Whether a 17th-century dictionary had the most profound effect on only a part of the Serbo-Croatian-speaking area does not affect whether something is a language (again as defined above).
That the terms are the same to refer to what's in this dictionary and the standard language of a modern state does not mean that the dictionary's stuff should appear on the article about the modern standard language. It's like treating Ancient Macedonian (related to Greek) at the Macedonian language article (the latter is, as you'll know, Slavic). --JorisvS (talk) 18:50, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I think your argument is invalid, because Wikipedia on Bosnian added edits about Muhamed Hevaji Uskufi Bosnevi's book as oldest vocabulary of south-eastern Europe, and Croats/Serbs don't accept it as their vocabulary because he was Bosniak. This happened in 1600's and Serbo-Croat appeared in 1800's. Language of those times is now root of today's standard Bosnian. --WikiLite91 (talk) 22:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

The Croatian, Bosnian, and Serbian Wikipedia's are infested (excuse the word) by POV nationalists who'd like to make the world believe that they speak different languages altogether, which is just ridiculous when you look at the facts. I'll stress again that the Serbo-Croatian language developed long before the term "Serbo-Croatian" emerged, in early forms roughly a millennium ago or so. However, if words in that dictionary have been used only Bosniaks ever since that time, it may be possible to mention it as a source of Bosnian-specific vocabulary, but only if that assertion itself is sourceable. --JorisvS (talk) 14:06, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

kung-fu[edit]

[kɔ̜ŋfu] or [kɔ̜ŋɡfu]? Fort123 (talk) 13:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I hear no [g]. --JorisvS (talk) 13:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Bosnian[edit]

You've made mistake. Bosnian is notable among Serbian and Croatian by using Turkish and German phrases. Read second part of article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiLite91 (talkcontribs) 15:56, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Where? The only thing I see is the sentence ".... also contains a number of Germanisms not often heard in Croatian or Serbian, which was in use since the Austro-Hungarian Empire." in the second paragraph, which uses a ref that does not say anything remotely like that (check it out: [24]). Even if nevertheless true, it is a matter of degree and should be noted as such. But first it requires an actual source. --JorisvS (talk) 15:05, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

boîte[edit]

This pronunciation is [bwɛɪ̯t] or [bwɐɪ̯t]? Fort123 (talk) 01:25, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

More like [bwʚɪ̯t], the vowel is definitely rounded. --JorisvS (talk) 18:52, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

tête[edit]

That Canadian pronunciation is [tæɪ̯t] or [tɐɪ̯t] ? Fort123 (talk) 20:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Spotlight effect[edit]

A new group in my History of Psychology class has totally rewritten this article. They are in a bit of a quandry because they think the existing article should just be deleted and replaced by theirs. I recommended they get advice from you on this issue. The new article is much better and I hope it meets with your approval. J.R. Council (talk) 19:09, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

The link to my sandbox, the updated version of Spotlight Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MarindaKB/sandbox

I think it's best to delete the existing article entirely, and replace it with our updated version. I know that's not typically the best option, but in this case we recycled the information and entirely reformatted it…Thoughts? MarindaKB (talk) 19:37, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

"A" vs "the"[edit]

"A language"/ "a dialect" is the way we speak about languages. "English is a West Germanic language that was first spoken in early medieval England and is now a global lingua franca", NOT "English is the West Germanic language that was first spoken in early medieval England and is now a global lingua franca". There are no other "West Germanic languages that were first spoken in early medieval England and are now a global lingua franca".

"Sicilian (lu sicilianu, Italian: lingua siciliana, also known as Siculu or Calabro-Sicilian) is a Romance language. "

Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 23:52, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

That sentence appears to try to say things that should, that way, be put into two sentences: 1) "English is a West Germanic language", 2) "It was first spoken [...]". If properly put into a single sentence, it should become "the West Germanic language that [whatever uniquely specifies it). "Sicilian is a Romance language" quite correctly uses "a", although a proper definition, which the first sentence of the lead should give, should uniquely specify which Romance language it is. "It is the way we do it" is a void argument. --JorisvS (talk) 08:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Ok, show me what you are made of - go to English language and change "English is a West Germanic language" to "English is the West Germanic language". Please, do it. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 10:34, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm thorough. The problem with that sentence is that, as I said, there are two sentences put in one. All information in both is so prominent as to merit first-sentence position. I have not yet figured out how to resolve this (else I would already have changed it).
Let's analyze the situation using a simple example:
Give me a book. – "a book", not specified any further.
Give me a book that is on the table. – specifies a set from which to choose a book (those that are on the table).
Give me the book that is on the table.the indicates that there is only one book on the table. Now "that is on the table" identifies uniquely which book I'm requesting, whereas earlier it was used to specify the set from which to choose.
Now, this shows the meaning of the word the vs. a. --JorisvS (talk) 12:39, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

JorisvS, let's look at this sentence:

The olive tree is *a* tree that grows [..where ..] of [..metres ..] heihgt, and ... produces a fruit from which olive oil is extracted.
  • The first part tells us that the olive tree is a tree, one among many - easy enough
  • The second part contains additional information that points to a specific tree
  • Logically, from the second part we can dedude that there is only ONE such tree
  • That being the case, the first part should read "the olive tree is the tree ...
  • I fully agree with you there. But, when the two are thrown together, we have to treat them as separate sentences, one with an indefinite article, the other with the definite article.
  • The article is available in 13 languages. I can't read Polish or Russian, I can read all remaining 11. Latin and Esperanto don't use articles, so 9 languages of the 11 that I can read use articles. Of these, Venetian and Lombardian (2 out of 9) say it is "the tree"; all others (7 out of 9) say it is "a tree".
  • Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 00:16, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

May 2014[edit]

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to List of contemporary ethnic groups may have broken the syntax by modifying 2 "()"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 13:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. --JorisvS (talk) 13:39, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

pêche[edit]

Last time, you told me [päɪ̯ʃ], but [pɐɪ̯ʃ] is more exact ? Fort123 (talk) 12:53, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

S/C family[edit]

Hello. I see you have a good knowledge about linguistics. Could you tell me why is it on the Serbo-Croatian family languages written all the dialects? I mean, shouldn't it be only language groups and not dialects? Only enwiki promotes all the "families" of dialects, and I can't find it on dewiki, shwiki etc. --MunjaWiki (talk) 23:00, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist}} template (see the help page).