User talk:Just plain Bill
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Hi. Bill here. carry on...
I will answer you here, so please watch this page if you start a new heading.
If I start one on your talk page, I will watch there, to keep the discussion on one page.
(see history archive 1 for stuff that was cleared out 2008 Aug 5)
Please add new messages to the bottom of the page. That is where I look first.
- I don't remember exactly, but most of the sources in the deleted revisions of the Solfeggio frequencies article were New Age woo-woo type stuff. See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Solfeggio_frequencies. There is plenty of "snowflakes respond to ancient Gregorian chant" type malarkey mentioning Horowitz still to be found on the web, but if it's secondary sources of serious scholarship you're after, they could be scarce.
- What little I've seen of your editing history reassures me that you are not inclined to whitewash a crank's article, so do what you feel is right. If all mention of this bit of nonsense is to be snipped from the Horowitz article, then that redirect page should be deleted as well. Regards, Just plain Bill (talk) 13:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Makes perfect sense. This was my first Wikipedia post, and I wasn't sure how this all worked. I have not had the chance to go through your article in its entirety, nor am I an expert on this. However, I know how critical and difficult non verbal communication can be for many to both comprehend and put into practice. My oldest son (11) is on the mild/moderate Autistic spectrum, and I am going to try to begin creating a type of kid-friendly discussion/curriculum with him to explain many of the things you talk about. He has such a hard time creating friendships because he doesn't understand how the back and forth flow of human interaction works, and it saddens him that he doesn't have many friends..certainly not as many as his younger sister.
If I could, I would probably leave my job in the construction trades (superintendent) and work on something like this full time because I know that a mastery of NVC (non verbal communication) will either make or break his ability to relate to others in his life.
I can either move my comment down or delete it. Let me know.
- No big deal on the top-posting thing, Adam. Most of the old conversations got swept into an archive recently, so this talk page is now short enough that it's easy to see where stuff is.
- I'm not sure where to find resources for parents with such kids. I bet they are out there. There might be some support to be found on the r/autism subreddit, but I don't know how good it is. Kindly keep in mind that Talk:Nonverbal communication is for figuring out how to improve the article, not a general discussion forum.
- Good luck finding ways to work with your son's strengths, as he finds his way in the world, Just plain Bill (talk) 17:57, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Bill. I noticed a certain amount of confusion generally in Wikipedia about terminology re viola, viols, vihuelas, etc. You'll gather from my page enough to figure out how I'm figuring out editing at present - room for improvement, but in general trying to assist in pulling together some loose ends here and there. I used to live in Lisbon, to the average person in the street along with most musicians I met anything guitar shaped (i.e., what you or I might call a guitar) was a 'viola'! Obviously that reference belongs on the disambiguation page - but I'm wondering if some discussion about the viola from the linguistic point of view would help in sorting out the confusion. User:Pupsikon Pupsikon 20:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
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Humanist shape of the violin
I was wondering why you removed my violin comparison diagram from the "Violin construction and mechanics" page. I know it was speculation but it was clear from the caption that it was a "possible source of the inspiration of the shape of the violin" and in this regard and as well as the fact it describes the term "humanism" in a visual manner that could not be described in text, I felt it was still suitable for the page. Is there some way to include this image in the article with perhaps a more clear caption that does not mislead readers into thinking this was actually the factual source of the violin shape? We all know we will never be sure where the shape of the violin came from for sure but I wanted to present it as a possible theory and in that regards it is a valid theory that I don't think should be suppressed. We could welcome other theories as well. I thought my original caption was fine: "The possible source of the inspiration of the shape of the violin. Remarkably, the violin form is almost identical to the negative profile of the human ear." Its not stated as a fact but rather as a theory with the intention to have the readers ponder the origin themselves. It is also a remarkable comparison that should be shared with all in regards to the subject of the shape of the violin body. Out of interest to readers I think this is a remarkable connection that describes the concept of humanism in a way no words can describe. Perhaps the image could be included in the wikipedia page on humanism?
What do you think? What should I do next?
Thank you for your comments and your reconsideration Bill.
- The coincidental resemblance between the negative space around a human ear viewed from the front, and the C-bout of a violin, will need reliable sourcing if it is to be included in Wikipedia. Many string instruments have a resonant box with two bouts, roughly making an hourglass shape, as seen in the guitar. Such a shape is commonly compared to the human female torso. See, for example, Man Ray's well-known photograph, le Violon d'Ingres. The C-bouts of a violin are a practical feature allowing the player to bow the "outside" strings, the G and E, without interference from the body of the instrument. That's not to say that the C-bouts don't also have decorative and acoustic motivation, but until a reliable source is found saying that they were inspired by the profile of an ear, that is original research, which won't fly on Wikipedia. Just plain Bill (talk) 16:07, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
I am familiar with May Ray's work - his violin comparison is a well-known piece. When I was experimenting with two dimensional images of human head profiles in one of my illustration projects I came across this similarity to the human ear which is even closer to the profile of the violin - the C-bout proportion and location are almost identical to the human ear shape. I thought I would share this similarity as a possible origin of the shape or at least as a way to exemplify the richness of the shape of the violin rather than as a certain fact. By my contribution I was not stating this is definitely the source of the violin shape - instead I was visually describing that when the human mind creates, it often thinks in terms of itself - replication - which is the basis of the ideas of humanism - a central theme in western art. Its a connection - a theory. By definition a theory is "an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true". I do see other theories presented on Wikipedia. I was never claiming it as a fact but rather a remarkable coincidence that's noteworthy and relevant to the shape of the violin considering the violin form throughout history has been described as a humanist shape. This diagram clarifies through this one example.
Perhaps the caption needs to be rewritten as:
"Humanist elements abound in the shape of the violin as shown in this comparison of the violin to the negative profile of the human ear."
But Bill, I do see your point too that because its so close it seems as if I am stating that definitely this was the source and maybe people might be mislead if they are not reading carefully. Maybe a new page could be created titled "Violin shape source theories" but we would need a few more other theories to make it a complete article. I am not sure. I appreciate your comments Bill and if this image is never used, thats OK - but you are welcome to use it if you ever think it could be useful in a more appropriate place. Thank you once again!
If the violin cut-outs (C-bouts) formed any other shape it would not be such a coincidence but the fact that is resembles a human ear so closely, which in itself, is the sensor of sound and music itself, makes this coincidence remarkable. Perhaps this is simply an intriguing God-given coincidence that points to the wonders of humanity and creation. MichAngelico (talk) 06:30, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
- I do see some resemblance; your observation is an interesting one. Modern violinmakers have mentioned seeing anthropomorphic motifs in various parts of a violin's structure. I remember a forum post from a well-regarded maker in Chicago, mentioning how he liked to shape his bridges so they appeared to be standing up under string tension with a stalwart attitude (I'm paraphrasing, not remembering his exact words) instead of drooping listlessly under the weight. I believe the originators of the violin's shape used straightedge-and-compass geometric construction to lay out their patterns, finding a balance among visually pleasing lines, acoustic utility, and the kind of practical simplicity that helps a workman chop and slice wood into shape for one violin after another.
- Coincidence can be a remarkable thing, but so can apophenia and pareidolia. Human minds have come to have sensitive pattern recognition mechanisms. On some occasions that serves us well; other times, not so much. I just held my violin up to the side of my head and looked in a mirror. With some adjustment of the relative positions, I could see a rough parallel, but I had to hold it closer to my collarbone than the top of my shoulder. My old ears resemble neither a Stradivari nor a Guarneri C-bout, nor any other maker's pattern, I regret to say.
- It would be interesting to research and write an article on something like "Anthropomorphic shapes in musical instrument design" but finding enough reliably sourced encyclopedic material could take a while. Just plain Bill (talk) 15:42, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
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