User talk:Khruner

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

Pyramid of Neferhotep I?[edit]

Hello Khruner, while reading sources concerning Neferhotep I, I came accross a claim made by Michael Rice in his Who is who in Ancient Egypt that Neferhotep I had a pyramid built for himself at el-Lisht. So far, this source is the only one I have consulted to claim this, so I wondered if you may know more on the matter (since I remember that you like 13th Dynasty pyramids)? This would be an important information to add to Neferhotep's article. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:55, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello Iry-Hor, glad to see you back in action and thanks for expanding the article of Neferhotep I, a king to whom I am attached. I remembered to have already read somewhere the statement you quoted, and in fact is a claim by Grimal: "Neferhotep I was perhaps buried in a pyramid at el-Lisht, some distance from Sesostris I" (History of Ancient Egypt, p.184). Apparently Grimal does not give precise references, maybe the purported pyramid is one of the duo Lepsius 63-64 but without a proof (something like Merneferre's pyramidion) any claim and attribution is purely conjectural, although I don't see the reason why pharaohs such as Neferhotep I and Sobekhotep IV should not have built even a small pyramid. Khruner (talk) 08:11, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
They almost certainly did, the question is where. It could be in Lisht since it was the necropolis of Itjtawy but it could also be in Abydos for all we know (after all Sobekhotep I or II had his pyramid there and Neferhotep seemed to like the place if one believes his year 2 stela). Alternatively, why not in the vicinity of Thebes, from which Neferhotep's family originates and to which Sobekhotep IV was particularly attached. In any case, I might add it somewhere in the article, stressing that this remains conjectural. P.S: how do you choose which pharaoh you like?? Apepi, now Neferhotep I... Iry-Hor (talk) 10:09, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, both el-Lisht and Abydos are plausible places, I never considered Thebes before but if so it could be the first royal burial here since the times of the 11th Dynasty. About the pharaoh that I like the explanations would be too long. Years ago I saw Neferhotep's statuette the museum of my town and my dad noticed my interest and bought me Gardiner's Egypt of the Pharaohs; my fascination with ancient Egypt started here, and in a sense it was thanks to Neferhotep. I have many other favorite pharaohs such as Senusret III (mainly for his touching, disillusioned expression on his statues), Amenemhat I, Apophis, Tefnakht, Merikare and go on... Khruner (talk) 11:50, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Tefnakht and Merikare as well, how come? Personally, I don't like Amenemhat I: what did he do to Mentuhotep IV (precipitating the end of the awesome 11th dynasty, less than 20 years after Mentuhotep II!)? I am pretty sure he usurped the throne violently, otherwise how can we explain that Mentuhotep IV's reign is referred to as 7 kingless years in later records? He must have usurped the throne and then obliterated Mentuhotep IV's memory as thoroughly as possible, baring his contemporaries from even considering that Mentuhotep was a king. About Neferhotep I at Lisht, reading the Scepter of Egypt, it seems that Grimal based his hypothesis on indirect evidence: scarabs of Neferhotep and more importantly a shawabti (and its miniature coffin!) of a son of Neferhotep I named Wahneferhotep found close to the mortuary temple of Senusret I in Lisht. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:32, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Surely Amenemhat I was ambitious, but Mentuhotep IV seems to have been the opposite. Is it possible that Amenemhat illegally - and maybe ruthlessly - took the throne as shown by the existence of pretenders in the south like Segerseni, but it looks like he was the right man at the right time, he ensured stability in the somewhat obfuscated period after the death of Mentuhotep II and laid the foundation that will make the 12th Dynasty one of the greatest (for me, the greatest of all).
About Neferhotep, nice point, it looks plausible that his royal tomb could be at el-Lisht. Anyway, did you know about his second naos which was found in Karnak in 2005? See here and here. I don't have heard anything more recently about this naos, so I assume that it will stay buried under Karnak forever. Khruner (talk) 14:46, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Nah I still don't like Amenemhat I, I see that he founded one of the greatest dynasties (maybe the 18th still gets the first place, and the 4th is tied in 2nd), but I very much like Mentuhotep II and I am sure he would not have let his vizier get over him had he still been alive... Thanks for the info regarding the second naos, this clarifies something written in the French wiki which says that the naos has been left buried in the sand (for protection) as it could not be removed due to the surrounding structures. I will add this info to the article on Neferhotep. Iry-Hor (talk) 15:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

J. Miller[edit]

I think you and Udimu already know about J. Miller's paper here about the identity of Nibhuririya. It was written before Van Dijk proved that Horemheb had a 14 year reign but otherwise the facts are unchanged. I have to work. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 02:39, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for this paper too, Leoboudv, I appreciate it as usual! Khruner (talk) 11:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I have been looking for this for 2 years[edit]

Relief Mentuhotep IV Lepsius.jpg Mentuhotep IV award
It has been almost 2 years since I started a quest trying to find a picture of Mentuhotep IV, free of copyright. The combine might of Amenemhat I and the copyright laws made this quest nearly impossible and I failed miserably at it until tonight when I saw on Mentuhotep IV's article that you had fulfilled it. As a connoisseur and lover of the 11th Dynasty, I thank you for this brilliant upload. Iry-Hor (talk) 20:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

P.S: I also answered your question on the talk page concerning Sobekemsaf II and Neferhotep I in Lepsius Denkmaler.20:30, 27 September 2014 (UTC) Iry-Hor (talk)

Thanks for the appreciation, I was happy to change the previous scarab by Petrie: it surely was non-contemporary and also somewhat dubious in his attribution, but at the time it was the only picture related to Mentuhotep IV that I could find. And thanks for answering me about Sobekemsaf's cartouche! I will crop and upload the two inscriptions soon. Khruner (talk) 11:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Homosexuality in ancient Egypt[edit]

Hi. I have re-edited this article, using good literature. May I ask for your opinion and to keep an eye on it? Such an precarious theme... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 22:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi, nice work, expecially in finding sources in Khnumhotep's paragraph. I'll keep an eye for sure, a similar theme could be a target of vandals indeed. I made some little edits such as paragraphs, few links and Nyuserre being a king of the 5th Dynasty. Khruner (talk) 11:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you so much. I just love these special themes. Maybe I'll find more for this article... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

King Khufu...[edit] under attack by vandalising IPs. Please keep an close eye on it, like me. Reards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:12, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Fine, though we only can rollback edits; if the vandal keep going I think we could warn Dougweller. Khruner (talk) 18:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Okidokie, let us do that if necessary. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:46, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

On viziers[edit]

Hello Khruner. Recently I have been looking for court officials living during Sahure's lifetime and I came to realise that the English wikipedia lacks a proper list of Egyptian viziers. Of course there is Vizier_(Ancient_Egypt)#Notable_Egyptian_Viziers, however the list is said to be "of notable viziers", which leaves you wondering by which criterion are vizier notable or not. Also, such a list is by definition fragmentary and lacking and thus not as useful as a list comprising all viziers (see "Liste der Wesire des Alten Ägypten" on the German wiki). It appears that lately, with your edits and also those of others, the list of "notable" viziers is slowly becoming a list of all viziers. Why not officialize this and make the list as thorough as possible (and possibly as a separate article)? Just for Sahure I found out that there are more viziers than just Sekhemkare of the list, so I am guessing this opens the route to a large number of edits. This will also facilitate the life of editors (like me!) looking for the viziers of a pharaoh. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:34, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi there. You are right, I never considered the "notable" thing, and indiscriminately put every new or found vizier in that list... But maybe a vizier is "notable" when he has an article about him, I don't know. Surely the creation of a separate article in the German manner could facilitate a work like the one you mentioned... Was your intention to translate the German article? Khruner (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Actually I was thinking of using the existing list and that from Digital Egypt here as a basis, then put all viziers I come accross in the list. It will get complete over time (I guess we can also incorporate those from the German list as well). At some point, I reckon that most of the viziers will have an article (some may already have one, and may be orphaned precisely because there is no such list). In any case, the "notable" adjective should be removed. Iry-Hor (talk) 19:45, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Sounds good for me, tell me if you need any help with that list! Talking about this kind of lists, you just remembered me my little project concerning a list of Apis burial, maybe I'll exhume it in the weekend... Khruner (talk) 21:57, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Ok, and do you think I should create a new article with the list or leave it in the article on viziers? Iry-Hor (talk) 07:36, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
If it were up to me I would ask the project, but since it is rarely visited I would do a new article; after that, I would try to expand the original Vizier article maybe with an integration from Khruner (talk) 08:46, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

My home- and discussion page[edit]

I just re-created my lil' wikipedia home. Like it? ;) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 00:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Nephiliskos Just seen, sound nice, but somewhat a little dissuasive in the talk page :D I'd like to visit to Rhineland-Palatinate one day... --Khruner (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Hey, I'm just trying to be open and honest. :D Yeah, come to Rhineland-Palatinate. I couls help you to organize your travel, if you like. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 13:10, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
I'll keep it in mind, thanks :) OT: do people from there extensively cultivate hop? Just a curiosity of mine, I'm interested in the topic since I'd like to start a very small cultivation... --Khruner (talk) 13:37, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I can tell you stuff from my region (north-west tip and middle). The main cultivating species on sunny mountainsides include hop, sweet winegrapes and fruits such as bramble and raspberry. On rather shady mountainsides you will find winegrapes for sour wine sorts and champagne. As a cultivation advise I'd say you need a soil which is both moisture storing yet permeable to air. Our soil here is rich with clay, charcoal and limestone, but also contains litter humus. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:36, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I see, thanks a lot for the explanations :) Khruner (talk) 15:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

I often witness hop that has wildered out. If you like, I gotta harvest some cuttlings with roots and send them to you. ;) --Nephiliskos (talk) 15:14, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

It would be nice of you, thanks :) but there is no need of that, wild hop is widely present in the vicinity of my house too; my plan is to grow some cultivars hoping to make a small harvest suitable for brewing... Khruner (talk) 15:37, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Like an Egyptian, huh? :D Self-brewed beer tastes great, if you use not too much hop... ;) Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 15:47, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Can't wait to drink a Masskrug of that then ;) Khruner (talk) 16:00, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Venus of Savignano[edit]

HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:29, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The answering mail..[edit]

... is on its way. ;o) I'm so curious about your opinions. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 19:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Nephiliskos Very nice and clear, are these all-digital works? About the seal impressions, these are nicely stylized and perfect. Though not exactly the idea I had for Hotepibre's mace for which I was thinking of a realistic - thus imperfect - rendering :)
Did you use a graphics tablet or something, possibly in the two images with human figures (Den and the other duo related to Peribsen)? Khruner (talk) 20:12, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
All drawings were created with CorelDraw X6. ;-) All hieroglyphs you see were put together by dozends of bodyparts, then rendered as fix group image and then saved as png.-file. Lots of hard and nerve-bending work, but I love it. If you enjoy them so much, would you upload them on commons for me? I'm still too goofy for that, on de.Wiki it's much easier... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:36, 26 October 2014 (UTC) PS: about the mace head: what about the idea you draw the whole object as it is and I draw an mace relief impression?
Ok, I'll put these on Commons no problem, but probably you should add a proper description after the upload, since only you know everything worth knowing about this pictures. About the mace, deal: I will draw the object as it appears on the picture, and you can draw the impression with inscription and baboons if you like!
Talking about animals and special hieroglyphs, I've found times ago a hieroglyph that looks like a sitting shrew to me, and I failed in finding an equivalent on Gardiner's sign list, so can I send it to you maybe? Khruner (talk) 21:03, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Sure! Just send it to me. ;o) Please leave links to each common file of my drawings on my discussion page, ok? I'll fill the discriptions ASAP. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Heey!^^ Guess what I've got! Right, I got several special hieroglyphs for you to upload and I got the macehead inscription! Shall I send them via mail? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 14:27, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi , Nephiliskos yes send me all, you did the mace inscription already? I'm not sure when I will finish the drawing, since I'm somewhat busy in these days...! Khruner (talk) 14:53, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Never thought that this would happen, but... I forgot my usb-stick at work... -.-" I'll send them tomorrow after job lunch. Srry... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 18:28, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
No problem :) Khruner (talk) 21:37, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Lots of drawings are on their way. ;-) Have fun.^^ Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 10:47, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Ummmm... I hope I do not sound ungrateful, but: What about the file of Scheri? I've send an re-drawn version that was meant to replace the older version... And, one request: Do think you could mirror all sitting baboon-figures and the deities "Schatju" and "Chepri"? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 13:49, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure about your first request, only the uploader can request a deletion, and technically I've uploaded the files but with your name... Is that so bad if both versions remains on Commons? And above all, to replace which file, "Inkef2"? But the hieroglyphs are different... About the second thing, I can do that but it will lose the transparency Khruner (talk) 17:39, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
So Nephiliskos, have you decided about the hieroglyph mirroring? And you should explain me which file is intended to be replaced by "Sherj.png" (I was confused with the two files "Sij.png" and "Inkef2.png" before, since these are the only files that looks quite similar among the drawing I've uploaded from you) Khruner (talk) 08:17, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Hi there. Gosh, I'm a dwerp! Of course I meant the offical Inkef, I had corrected his relief (his son is in fact "levitating" before his pops, the ol' bonebag nearly rams his scepter into the backhead of the boy). And in fact, Inkef and Sij are both portrayed in Scherj's mastaba - which explains the same-looking artistic representation.

About the hieroglyphs. yes, please mirror them. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 11:57, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Ok Nephiliskos, then I'll try to request "Inkef2.png" deletion, but consider that it appears to be in use on! Khruner (talk) 12:27, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
I'll take it off and leave a note there. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:30, 30 October 2014 (UTC)
Done. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 12:40, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

The secret of the "shrew"-hieroglyph[edit]

Hi! I just received the picture - and was amused. ;-)) What we see here are sloppy drawn baboons, sitting on their butts and having put their hand onto their lap. This goes perfectly consistent to the name of the king: Sibast-Upu-mery-Amun = "Anointed by Upu, beloved by Amun". ;o) Upu was the Ancient Egyptian gatekeeper of the underworld, he was mostly shown as a white (silvern?) baboon, either sitting and holding a long, sharp knife in his lap or he was standing upright and holding one knife in each hand. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 08:55, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I see, I thinked about a sort of ape before I changed to a shrew because it looks to me more similar. So this hieroglyph still does not exist in Gardiner's sign list? And I have some problems in reading the royal name: meryamun and sibast are both clear, then remains the baboon plus w3(?)-p-t (
V4 Q3
): what is their contribution in forming the birth-name Iuput (or Auput)? Khruner (talk) 12:18, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi. Nice that you noticed. ;)) Meanwhile I met another, unexpected problem: I can't find the cartouche from the book you showed me. I searched ANYWHERE, but none of the sources gives an Auput, whose cartouche name was written with baboons (I mean, c'mon, see the Wiki-articles of the two Auput kings). How can that be??? It had to be either some sort of Auput III., or the book gives a fake. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 16:40, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Nephiliskos Not sure I have understand the whole thing... Here's the book, and I came to it book via von Beckerath's Handbuch: pp.204-205, "Auput II." (E1). It is likely that von Beckerath here rendered the baboon as a sitting human figure with a lion head... Khruner (talk) 17:10, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken, that book is from 1884... at this time many cartouche names were full of errors... My main problem is that I can't find the cartouche from the book anywhere.--Nephiliskos (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Beside of plate 1, Auput's cartouches appears at page 10, while in pp.10-11 Griffith argues that this inedit rendering must be a variant of the classic writing (the one with the recumbent calf) and correctly realizes that this Auput is the same ruler of Leontopolis submitted by Pije, and not the namesake and earlier High priest of Amun (there was another Auput too, an ephemeral coregent of Petubast I but here is not considered at all) Khruner (talk) 18:53, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Aaaaahh!!! Ok, that explains a lot. Well, since we have no sitting Baboon I gonna create that special hieroglyph and send it to you, ok? Then we can use Griffith as a source for the cartouche. Of which date is Griffith? Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 19:22, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

This work is edited in 1890, and Griffith died in 1934. Any news regarding how the baboon hieroglyph and the other three can form the Auput/Iuput name? :) Khruner (talk) 20:05, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, the sign group sitting baboon

V4 Q3

actually belongs together, the three sign are the phonetic transcription of the Upu-sign. ;-) V4 = "u"; Q3 = "p"; V13 = "u(t)"... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 20:48, 27 October 2014 (UTC)


Hi. Have you ever heard about an device called "the Herodotus machine"? Some users persistently try to introduce this (fictitious?) "Herodotus machine" into the article of Khufu... Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 17:18, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi Nephiliskos never heard of this machine before but I've just checked Herodotus' Histories where he essentially explains that the Great Pyramid was built as a step pyramid, and then the workers used these "short woods machines" or something, placed on each step, in order to lift up the remaining blocks like a series of elevators. I guess this must be the "Herodotus machine", but I can't say if that was fictious or not...! --Khruner (talk) 17:45, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
I mainly refer to the lemma "Herodotus machine", because Herodot never invented any kind of machine. What's more: he is clearly unable to say what kind of "construction" the Ancient Egyptians had used. ;D I just wanna avoid the invention and introducing of neologisms in our precious articles. Regards;--Nephiliskos (talk) 19:55, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
That's fine, anyway more infos about Herodotus' claims are here. Khruner (talk) 20:14, 17 November 2014 (UTC)