User talk:Lfstevens

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GOCE January 2015 drive[edit]

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strange edit on GMO controversies page[edit]

how did this happen I wonder? maybe you are editing from a phone or something? Jytdog (talk) 09:33, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I think it was something funky in the paste function. I copied it from the edit buffer before I saved, because it had taken me awhile and I expected an edit conflict, which I got. Various other cr's got mangled in the process. Didn't notice the bit you flagged. Weird. Lfstevens (talk) 19:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
funky! thx. Jytdog (talk) 21:05, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
note - I reverted David's change of the section header above from "strange edit on GMO controversies page" to "strange edit / humor on GMO controversies page". I never considered the post as "humor" or a "joke" and the change made it appear that I did, when I created the section. I reverted, and set up a new subsection for David's questions/statements below. (David feel free to rename that subsection whatever you like or even just to remove it) but per WP:TPG, don't change what another editor writes in a way that changes the meaning of what they wrote. Jytdog (talk) 12:44, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

statements from David[edit]

Copied from GMO controversy page: David Tornheim (talk) 21:33, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
When will the anti-GMO folks produce an unimpeachable study that supports their fears? Lfstevens (talk) 09:30, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
That's easy to answer: That will happen concurrently with the announcement of the Japanese Nuclear Safety Commission: "Come on! You didn't really expect us to do our job, look into the safety issues at Fukushima and force TEPCO to make appropriate modifications, did you? Honesty, what were you thinking? Did your parents not instruct you: 'buyer beware'? That said, our scientists have studies proving that all future power plants will be 'safe'. You have nothing to fear."  :-) David Tornheim (talk) 14:52, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Talk about a strange comparison! The dangers of nuclear power are supremely well-documented. Although, despite the three big accidents, a lot fewer people have died from nuclear power than from conventional fuels. Just sayin' Lfstevens (talk) 19:37, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Jytdog scolded me (for meeting your joke with a joke). Now I see why. I assumed you would laugh as you should have. There's nothing worse that having to explain a joke. (I think you should have been scolded for making your joke too; seems like a double-standard to me.) You know as well as I do that GMO critics do not want to produce a study that shows that all the people who have been exposed to any particular GMO can look forward to long-term unexpected health impacts because of insufficient study prior to widespread approval. After all, many of the GMO critics have been exposed to GMO's without knowledge or consent, because the FDA gave a green stamp of approval to a doctrine of "substantial equivalence" that meant the kind of additional study that the E.U. correctly requires does not happen here. And that is because of their lobbying Congress and Presidents (both Democrat and Republican). And anyone in the U.S. (unlike Europe) who would like to avoid them because of possible unintended side effects cannot because of industry lobbying, massive campaigning with false claims like "scientific consensus" regarding "safety", etc. are all used to mislead and confuse and prevent any requirement of labeling, ultimately, not because the industry is concerned about how health, but instead is concerned about PROFIT. (The same company that introduced DDT, which I'm sure they said was safe as well, is the lead culprit.) The parallel with Fukishima regulators should be obvious. I really can't imagine why it is not. The regulators in Japan didn't do their job for all the same reasons the FDA will not do its job, and if anyone in Japan said otherwise they were likely shot down with the same bogus distractions. Those who were concerned about the reactor or opposed nuclear certainly did not want that disaster--they wanted to AVOID it--and neither do GMO critics want any major negative consequences for human health, animals and other living beings or the environment. GMO critics want sufficient study and labeling, and certainly not a widespread release of products that have not be sufficiently studied. It's called the Precautionary Principle. David Tornheim (talk) 21:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
David, as i told you on your talk page, i found lfstevens' comment to be too fragmented to interpret and didn't take it as a joke - i took it as uninterpretable. I didn't take it as a joke; there was no double standard in what I actually did. The Talk Page Guidelines describe Behavior that is not acceptable on Talk pages. One of those behaviors is misrepresenting other people. Please do not do that going forward. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 21:59, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Jytdog: What are you talking about? Do either of you honestly believe that his statement was a NOT a sarcastic joke? That's unbelievable. Are we really THAT far from understanding each other? If that is really the assertion, that's far worse. And I don't even know where to begin dealing with that. I would appreciate it if you re-read this section of the talk page from the start to finish. If either of you are truly asserting that GMO critics hope humans will be irreparably harmed by GMO's, because of inadequate study, I find that deeply offensive, far worse than making some off color joke. All the more why I think the person who should have been scolded is Lfstevens, not me. All right. I'm taking a break. Your response really makes me angry. David Tornheim (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── David, this is exactly why it is a bad idea to be anything other than simple and direct when you write things and why it is a good idea to ask for interpretation if you do not understand what other people write. what i wrote to you about lfstevens' comment was exactly what i meant, which was: "I found that comment/set of comments confusingly formatted and so i wrote him a note on his talk page about it, yes. it was so fragmented/strange that i hesitated to react to it at all and still have not." If you read that as meaning that I took it as a joke, you are not taking what I write plainly and simply.Jytdog (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog: I might have overreacted (on a feeling level) and misinterpreted the misinterpretation of the misinterpretation...ad infinitum. (LOL. Sorry I know you don't want more humor but it helps me!) I am taking a self-imposed cooling off period on this, and may just let the disagreement we have about this drop, and focus on common ground. I think that's what you want too.David Tornheim (talk) 04:43, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

A few points from a decidedly non-SME:

  • David, please don't be offended. I mean no offense and am sure that applies to Jytdog.
  • I apologize for my garbled editing. See above, although there may be some brain damage in there as well. Working on it.
  • I do not think that GMO critics want anything bad to happen (except maybe to the seed companies).
  • I do not find profit to be evil, or worth upcasing for emphasis. It's a tool. I won't divert into arguing the merits of economic systems, except to say that I prefer what we have to what other folks have tried.
  • Regulators get captured by the folks they regulate, everywhere and always. See Deepwater Horizon, the 2007 crisis, etc. We have to struggle forward despite that, first by attempting to find other mechanisms to govern behavior (competition is one such mechanism) and then by calling out abuses as we encounter them.
  • I don't understand the labeling brouhaha. Consumers already have ways to avoid GM food. It's called "organic". If we label GM foods then we'll have three categories: GM, non-organic/non-GM and organic. What's the point of the middle category?
  • The EU indeed has different standards than the US. Those standards have also not produced non-controversial work that documents the harm of the GM ecosystem.
  • It will be an age before we reach the level of understanding to be able to confidently claim that any given food is "safe". We should be able to say (as we now claim) that something is "safe enough" or "as safe as this other food". As GM broadens and deepens, any remaining justification for the similarity criterion is likely to evaporate. We should do more testing.
  • I am now going through Groupuscule's truly prodigious effort to document the controversy. Nuclear plants aren't the only thing that can have meltdowns. My brain is about there. I am doing so because I don't want to throw the critical baby out with the hysterical bathwater, of which there is much.
  • The number and variety of health effects alleged by critics is so large and diverse that it boggles my mind. If the RoundupReady trait + RoundUp is so toxic, teratogenic, etc., I don't understand why we don't have a vast amount of otherwise unexplained pathology after twenty years. It's not enough to say "just you wait...hell is on the way". US lifespans are continuing to rapidly increase as are QALY. We are finding causes for many heretofore unexplained conditions. Do any of those relate to GMOs?
  • It may be correct safety-wise to ban glyphosate or possibly its current configuration(s) in RoundUp, but we should also consider what will replace it. Pesticides long antedate glyphosate and many were highly dangerous. We need some way to feed the folks and that likely means some form of plant protection or other. We should be careful what we wish for.
  • The debate would make a lot more sense to me if we (regulators, too) would consider GMOs trait by trait. Pesticide resistance is very different from vitamin enrichment. GM per se should not be seen as the mark of the devil.
  • We have gone way beyond simple transgenics in food, while our technology for GM has vastly improved (a la CRISPR). Our understanding of the genome and the other -omes is exploding. GM is going to be an increasing part of our lives from here on out. GM T-cells have now cured multiple cancer types. And we ain't seen nothing yet.
  • The Precautionary Principle is a very powerful concept. If applied rigorously, I'm guessing the rate of change of every human activity would collapse, which is why I think it should be used only when we have good reason to think that something is dangerous. (We're about to enter the age of Virtual Reality. Who knows what its long-term effects will be? Launch the PP missile?) I don't currently see a good reason to think that GMOs are obviously dangerous. That doesn't mean we give the seed companies carte blanche.
  • I'm deeply skeptical of "scientific consensus". We had scientific consensus about the dangers of dietary cholesterol - until we didn't, decades later. But, I see a consensus on vaccines. Etc. If a bunch of respected scientists say something, even if as Groupuscule documents, they don't appear to have reviewed the science themselves, that can stand as a consensus. My mind (what little still works) remains open on this question.

Lfstevens (talk)

Thank you for the response! Apology accepted. My frustration was more with Jytdog's response to our jokes (I'm cooling off now). I think we have much common ground here and this will be a productive discussion, so we can definitely get something positive out this! I will respond to your points where you made them rather than below. And I likely won't do it in sequential order and my responses may show up a bit piecemeal and be revised, so chronology might be somewhat muddled--I hope that won't be too confusing. I hope you are able to use diff to see/note any changes I make to any of these particular responses to avoid confusion. David Tornheim (talk) 05:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Question #1: Was this statement "When will the anti-GMO folks produce an unimpeachable study that supports their fears?" intended as a joke? If not, can you explain it. I assumed it was a joke and am happy to explain why, and why I thought it was funny. David Tornheim (talk) 09:35, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Not a joke. I had/have not seen such a study. If I had, I would have fought to include it in the article.
Question #2: Are you familiar with the controversial Séralini rat study that received wide spread press and/or the Monarch Butterfly study published in Nature Magazine both related to GMO's? I would appreciate your assessment of what happened with these studies without doing any further research. I am familiar with both sides of the issue, and I often only hear one side. I suspect many people editing and commenting on the GMO Controversy page don't really understand the full story and have only heard one side. If after commenting, you do further research that changes your initial assessment, I would like to hear that as well. I plan to give you my assessment of both when I have heard what you have to say. This directly relates to what I think you were saying in the sentence that caused all the "ruckus." I equally welcome Jytdog's or anyone else's assessment of these two studies. Because, I am not familiar with the "Pusztai affair" and have read neither's position on what I am sure is a "discredited" study, I would prefer not to discuss it at this time. However, I am not opposed to discussing it and doing my homework, if necessary and important to this discussion. David Tornheim (talk) 10:03, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Seralini's tribe's stuff has been strongly attacked. It doesn't meet my criteria. Haven't seen the butterfly thing. I am not competent to review either one, only to see how others do. Is there a credible review that credits them? Lfstevens (talk) 16:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
  • comment - fwiw, lfstevens, thanks for this dif where you removed part of the set of comments that are under discussion here, with edit note "rem my own gibberish"; in that dif you left the part of those comments that are under discussion here. respectfully. what would be better under WP:REDACT, would be to undo that deletion, and go back and strike the comments you removed (like this) (and it may be better to just strike the whole set of comments) with an edit note like "strike garbled comments". (if it were me, i would also include in the edit note something like "that were more general commentary than discussion of article content" or the like - I think that is what they were) - and again if I were you I would just back out of this discussion drilling down on what you meant or didn't mean, as it is not about article content and whatever was going on in your mind and fingers, ~i think~ it is not what you wanted to communicate. That's what i would do in your shoes - you are of course free to do whatever you wish, and the deletion of part of your comments is OK in my view since no one had responded to the parts you deleted. And of course, you guys are of free to continue discussing your personal views on GMOs here. Please do discuss article content on the article Talk page. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 12:58, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
Noted. Lfstevens (talk) 16:28, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

A barnstar for you![edit]

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I just happened to be watching cost-plus pricing and saw your work. Wonderful job! I couldn't have begun to wade into that pile of puff and turn it into such a good, crisp article. FourViolas (talk) 01:25, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for noticing! Lfstevens (talk) 01:26, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

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Seralini Article[edit]

Please see my comments on your revision to the Seralini article here.David Tornheim (talk) 11:29, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

DYK for Continuous Liquid Interface Production[edit]

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GOCE March 2015 drive[edit]

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A clean sweep! I'm looking forward to a shorty attack in May. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:15, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

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Sorry for the trouble. I neglected the slash when I attempted to create the subpage. Delete away! Lfstevens (talk) 16:55, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
It's okay! It happens to all of us :). ~HackedBotato Chat with meContribs 17:02, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

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