That's the classification used in the Routledge volume. Trying to bring some sanity to our classification articles. We have a specific field for ancestral forms.
BTW, other than Persian, do we have other direct descendents of Middle or Old Iranian languages? Wakhi from Khotanese/Tumsheqese, maybe, or Sangsari from Khwarezmian?
Does Ossete hold up as a direct descendent of Scythian? — kwami (talk) 18:00, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
A problem with the Safavid map
Take a look here . Looks like our friend is keeping up his reversion and now even denying that the western Georgian kingdoms were vassal states of the Safavid dynasty. If we use that logic he uses, then the majority of the maps on this site should get changed. --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 10:56, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
|The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar|
|Dear LouisAragon, I award you the Anti-Vandalism Barnstar for your efforts in reverting vandalism on articles related to WikiProject South Asia! You are making a difference here! With regards, AnupamTalk 20:29, 20 May 2014 (UTC)|
- Dear User:LouisAragon, thanks for reverting edits made by 184.108.40.206 (talk · contribs). I've noticed this kind of thing a lot on Wikipedia. I recently tried to do the same with 220.127.116.11 (talk · contribs) but was reverted again by that user. I appreciate you monitoring these articles for nationalism, etc. With regards, AnupamTalk 20:30, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Hello LouisAragon. As it is the 21st of May, I just wanted to take a look at this page. I did open the article entitled "Ethnic cleansing of Circassians", then, oh, I check the first word in bold and it reads "Muhajirism". I thought I got into the wrong place since the word "muhajirism" is not something specific to the Circassian exodus. Later I saw that "-5,270". I do not think that it was a deliberate mistake of yours. I could not read the entire current article, but do you know what happened here? I know that it is not you who changed it, but I thought you could help me understand what is going on because you are among the editors of that page.
Besides, after 1864, the vast majority of Circassians migrated to the Ottoman Turkey and the rest to the Balkans and to some Middle Eastern countries such as Jordan, Syria, and Israel. Iran is not actually one of them if we are referring to the 1860s. Back in the Safavid era, yes, there were Circassian inhabitants (soldiers, mostly concubines, and other slaves) in Persia. There still exist some Circassians in Iran. However, it is not because those people migrated to Persia "following the Caucasian War that ended in 1864". Most of them are "former" inhabitants and they are not usually Abaza, Abkhaz, Adyghe (Abzakh, Adamiy, Besleney, Bzhedug, Hatuqwai, Kabarday, Makhosh, Mamkhegh, Natukhai, Shapsug, Temirgoy, Yegerquay, Zhaney, etc.), and Ubykh. On the contrary, those in Iran consist of Northeast Caucasian peoples such as Vainakhs, Ossetians, Karachays, Daghestanians, and Balkars. Yet, among the concubines were Adyghe-speaking ones such as the Abzakh and Kabardian, that is why both Abbas II (1642–1666) and Suleiman I (1666–1694) have Adyghe mothers. Moreover, These mothers (Agha and Nekakhet Khanums) came from princely Adyghe families. Maybe you know that Agha Khanum's brother was the Governor of Sakki, Shamhal Karamusal Sultan.
Please check this out: Muhajirism was the massive emigration of Muslim indigenous peoples of the Caucasus into the Ottoman Empire and to a lesser extent Persia following the Caucasian War. The article is called "Ethnic cleansing of Circassians", but this sentence talks about all Caucasians (even South Caucasians such as Azerbaijani and Muslim Georgians). Those who speak Azerbaijani Turkish and South Caucasian languages are not included even in the broadest definition of Circassians. We know that the broadest definition in the Ottoman Empire and Iran consider North Caucasians to be Circassians. The southerns are excluded. This is another problem of the article. "To a lesser extent Persia" would be correct if the article were about the "muhajirism" only. For Ethnic Cleansing of Circassians, it is definitely wrong. If you do not mind, please check the Turkish version Çerkes Sürgünü. You will see what I mean.
Again, it says that among the ones that moved to Iran it included peoples from territories formerly under Iranian control, such as the Laks, Circassians (presumably only Kabardin, as they fell into the maximum extent of the Persian Safavid, Afsharid, and Qajar Empire), but also Azerbaijani, Shia Lezgins, and Muslim Georgians. Azerbaijani and Georgians? Right, but it is the wrong article. Notwithstanding, as I said, it seems that the article fails to distinguish between the formerly-settled Adyghes and the non-Circassian newcomers. It also confuses the consequences of the Russo-Persian War (1826-1828) with those of the Russian conquest of the Caucasus (1817–1864). The Russian conquest is the one which led to the "ethnic cleansing". "Emigration of Muslim indigenous peoples of the Caucasus" is another thing. So, dear LouisAragon, I hope you can do something about these issues. I will do my best if you need my help. Thank you in advanced.Listofpeople (talk) 20:58, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
- Hello Listofpeople. Thanks for bringing this up. The thing with the article is, it refers to the whole muhajirism of Muslims from the Caucasus, but zooms in precisely on the Circassians. Therefore, we noted the South Caucasian and non-Circassian North Caucasian emigration also briefly. Also the thing with the Russian conquest of the Caucasus, it was a direct following of their expansion into Persian and Turkish territory in the Caucasus. Prior to the 19th century, Russians didn't have really any strong political presence in the Caucasus at all, save for some Cossack lines, but those were far from the Turkish-Iranian border.
- The consequences of the Russo-Persian War (1826-29) were huge for both Imperial Russia, Persia and the Caucasus. After that war 90% of the Caucasus was finally all came under their hegemony. The outcome/aftermath of that war and the Russo-Persian/Russo-Turkish Wars before that, are directly linked with the Russian conquest of the Caucasus. In fact, when they appointed Mushthaid (Mir-Fatah-Agha) as leader of the Muslim Ulama over the region just right after the Russo-Persian War of 1826-28, the region was still maintained stable for decades. When he was told to go back by Paskevich' successors, the whole problem in the Caucasus got worse, including the rise of figures such as Imam Shamil and others. The Russian conquest itself was made possible after those Russo-Persian Wars and Russo-Turkish Wars. (to a lesser extent).
- If there are any more things you'd like to discuss, feel free to do so.
- I see the new version. I might be a bit choosy, but it seems a way better now. I am serious, thank you for your contributions. Of course, the issue at stake has a "background". Among others, Mir-Fatah's support may be influential as well. I see the relevance, but you also say that it is to a small extent. Perhaps out of overestimation, most of the article's sections were revolving around the repetition of the words "Qajar", "Mir-Fattah", "Tabriz", and "Persian", only. In addition, I doubt the article is really "within the scope of WikiProject Iran". I believe you see what I mean. Russo–Turkish Wars? Well, you are definitely right. Regarding the ethnic cleansing of Circassians, it can be argued that the relevance of even the Crimean War is much significant than that of the Russo–Persian War in the early 19th century. Anyway, if you are still interested in editing the article, please do so. Although it is relatively much better, it can be improved. It has been a nice conversation. Sure, I would like to discuss many other things when we both have time. All the best!Listofpeople (talk) 20:26, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks, but we still have quite a long way to go. I'm currently working together on it with another user. Quite major layout and information changes to come to cover all aspects, views (about the cleansing), periods, resettlement, and so on. Three major conflicts played around, after, during or before that time, and those were indeed the Crimean War, Russo-Persian War of the 19th cent, and some Russo-Turkish Wars. All of them are bonded in some way to the ethnic cleansing, but in various degrees of importance. It will still take some time before we're fully done. Bests to you too. - LouisAragon (talk) 19:58, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
- No problem. No, it's actually good like that, as putting them all at the same place will give confusion. The UN definition is the most deviating one, that's why we included it later on in the article, so people understand it's based solely for statistic purposes and nothing else. LouisAragon (talk) 22:26, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- It needs to be that way. Read the last paragraph of the section:
- What does tweaking with the layout have to do here in this situation? It's perfectly logical to put one huge deviating definition somewhere lower in the article, as it's a very, very deviating one. It's also why the section was called additional deviating definitions. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, many editors were happy with the change made long ago. I will revert that part back to where it was. If you don't agree with the opinion of most editors of that time, bring it to the talk page.LouisAragon (talk) 22:54, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Re:Thanks for the barnstar
Dear User:LouisAragon, there does seem to be a lot of vandalism on South Asian-related articles but I'm glad that you're up for the challenge of addressing it! I'm glad you liked the barnstar! All the best, AnupamTalk 02:50, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, it looks like my last edit was done with one of yours in between, so the summary doesn't anymore completely match the effects. In any case, please participate in the discussion on the talkpage. This pretty well-sourced material was originally deleted without any proper justification earlier this month, and I restored most of it for the sake of accessibility without having to go back over 500 edits ago. Yes, on second inspection there was redundantly restored sections in the lede- the purpose of my last edit was to delete these--Yalens (talk) 23:20, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Please refrain from baseless (and funny) threats. First, even US governmental source like Iran: A Country Study (Curtis & Hooglund, 2008, p. 117) states restoring traditional dress code was favored by vast majority of women. Bigots like Soroush90gh are forcing photos of irrelevant events to prove otherwise. Second, I referenced number of victims by two scholars, and you replaced it with Guardian trash. Third, there have been propaganda attempts few years ago related to plastic keys and mythical "thousands of child soldiers", which Iran denied long ago. Even dubious material shouldn't be took as fact in main article, but "95,000" isn't even dubious but pure propaganda. --Qizilbash123 (talk) 02:12, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Here's the quote from mentioned book (p. 117)
- Following the Revolution, the new republican government called for the participation of women in an “Islamic society,” because such a society would not be “morally corrupt” like the deposed monarchy. Observance of hejab would assure respect for women. Hejab eventually was defined as clothing that concealed the shape of a woman’s figure, such as loose outer garments, and covered her hair and skin, leaving only her face and hands exposed. The requirement to observe hejab in public was controversial among the minority of secularized women who never had worn a chador. However, for the majority of women who always had worn the chador, hejab served to legitimate their presence in the public sphere, especially in work outside the home.
It's publication by US Library of Congress, Federal Research Division. As I said - minority view of irrelevant event. I hope it helps, if need more sources just say. --Qizilbash123 (talk) 02:52, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I see you've been following up this lad - and been doing a good job so far. The user appears to be making several unsourced edits pushing a certain POV and political interest, resulting in degradation of the quality of dozens of articles covering that topic area. The problem is, their edits have not stopped. I've reverted all the recent changes for now but am not sure for how long I will be able to monitor the IP. If you have free time - I don't :( - it would be wise to bring up these tedentious edits to some admin's notice. Regards, Mar4d (talk) 15:56, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Fake sources by Pan-Turkists
Hey! This is a pure bullshit: . They claim that Scythians were Mongoloid/Turk. These sock puppets added that BS to Sarmatians too. See this diff. See? They just want to reject Iranian origin. Feel free to remove them, because it's a self-published website and the text is not same as the sources. Sources are fake. --18.104.22.168 (talk) 04:41, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm just responding since I got pinged. I don't know if I agree with the conclusion at SPI based on behavioral evidence, but I only took a short look. I know you had a rocky past, especially last month. If an admin blocked on those grounds, well, I'd suggest that some leniency might be merited given you'd put forth some effort towards productive editing, but then again I'm not familiar enough with the subject area of your edits to say just how productive you've been. I'm also concerned with the pushing for various actions on ANI. In short, while I would suggest someone experienced in SPI or ARBIPA-covered articles take a second look at the behavioral evidence, I'm not personally going to advocate for more. I'm sorry. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 16:39, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- I can say with full conviction that LouisAragon and Scythian77 are not sock accounts of Behnam or any other user, based on my interactions with them and their editing. I think the blocking admin has jumped the gun over this one. I can say for sure that Scythian77 is not a sock, because I have interacted with that user long before and he/she's been editing here since 2008. In the absence of checkuser and behavioural evidence, these blocks are not appropriate. It may also be of interest to you that the IP who made the socking allegations at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Beh-nam is Islamabad-based Afghan editor User:Lagoo sab who edits from PTCL 39, 119 and 182 IP ranges and uses similar language (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Lagoo sab/Archive, Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Lagoo sab etc.). Mar4d (talk) 07:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)