User talk:Marcocapelle

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Request for mediation rejected[edit]

The request for formal mediation concerning Category:Christianity under the Roman Empire, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, User:Sunray (talk) 00:46, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)


HI, I recall looking at the saints tree and decided it was a mess - hence my suggestion to start a slower conversation vs. at CFD where people feel pressured to !vote. Take a look at the whole tree and see what other inconsistencies you find - we should never have a female category as a subset of a male one, for example - I did a lot of clean up in the royalty tree since princesses were often children of princes, instead of sibling categories. But then once you start that broader discussion we can take our time to figure out best solution, and then if anything needs to be killed or renamed we can bring to CFD, pointing to previous pseudo-consensus from the other page. Let me know if this makes sense.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:05, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Explanation of "unncessary diffusion"[edit]

When I undid St. Timothy I hadn't realised that the parent category had been sub-divided. I don't believe that Category:New Testament people as a whole needs diffusion. I just don't have the energy to continually fight these misguided attempts to do so. While sorting people by the bit of the New Testament they get a mention in sounds like a good idea initially, maturer reflection shows that it leads to an unhelpful proliferation of categories. Taking Timothy as an example, he's mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, several Pauline epistles, and Hebrews. A category for each of these on the bottom of his article, in addition to the 14 other categories he's already in, is too many. And under the current scheme what does one do with Jesus? Add another 27 categories to his article? I'm cross-posting this to Laurel's talk page as well. Beeswaxcandle (talk) 09:35, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Dear Beeswaxcandle, I realize that occasionally people fall in two categories, but I created the categories such that it doesn't happen very often. To add on your 27 number, I agree that it's definitely not meaningful to subdivide any further than these three categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:40, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Female religious leaders[edit]

Hi, I'm sorry I didn't notice your proposals at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 June 2 about women clergy earlier; I'm glad it's still open! Thanks for making these proposals. I have suggested using "Religious leaders" rather than "clergy"; please comment. – Fayenatic London 10:19, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Eastern Orthodoxy-related controversies[edit]

Hello Marcocapelle,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Eastern Orthodoxy-related controversies for deletion in response to your request.

If you didn't intend to make such a request and don't want the article to be deleted, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. Vanjagenije (talk) 20:59, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Removal of categories[edit]

Hi, thanks for your edits but removal of these categories was ill advised, I've restored them. You may want to note on Talk pages before or after removing any similar. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Talk pages in categories[edit]

Hi. I've looked at Talk:Christian views on the Old Covenant too and don't see how it has been added to any categories. I would think that no talk pages (including user talks) should be in categories. I also saw your reverted edit that implied my own talk page is in a number of categories. If that is true, and if you find out how to remove them, I would appreciate it if you could pass that technique along to me. It is definitely not my intention, and I'd be happy to know how to rid the categories of such things also. Evensteven (talk) 16:03, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Don't worry about the latter, I thought I was still on your personal talk page but I was actually the article's talk page when I noticed the categorizations. So that was initially just a wrong insert from my side. As for the first point, you'll have understood that I have no idea how to remove them. Marcocapelle (talk) 16:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
[edit conflict] Thanks, regarding my talk page. On second thought though, do some special categories exist specifically for article talk pages? I'm thinking of project classifications (importance, article quality ratings, etc) of articles specifically. Talk:Christian views on the Old Covenant includes use of three templates for three projects that the article belongs to, and perhaps those templates create (transclude) automatic entries for such special-purpose categories. In that case, I would guess that they shouldn't be touched except through the controlling templates, as automation would be responsible for providing accuracy and consistency. Evensteven (talk) 16:17, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Dear Evensteven, I removed the links to the categories from Talk:Christian views on the Old Covenant and this resulted in removal of the categories that were in this particular discussion. So at least that's part of the deal! Still, the talk page is classified in a number of other categories that aren't mentioned on the talk page. I don't have any idea why. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:37, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Marcocapelle, cc User:Evensteven, As previous request, could you please stop deleting categories, discuss first on Talk pages, thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
    • In ictu oculi, I have not been involved in deleting categories. This communication is about talk pages themselves being in categories, and I was asking questions only. In particular, I was interested in removing my own user talk page from any categories it might have been in, as this did not seem right. I'd be glad to know if I'm off track about that, as this is not a subject I know much about at present. Evensteven (talk) 20:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC)


Don't you think that Christian views on Hades should be merged into Christian views on Hell? Editor2020 04:42, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

  • I completely agree. However, trying to get articles merged is not a priority for me personally. Meanwhile I've come to the finding that it's even more difficult to have an article edited, merged or deleted than have a category merged or deleted, because people really feel as if they're the owner of an article (especially so with articles that have a very limited audience of readers and editors, like this one will undoubtedly have). Having said that, if you would be willing to nominate this page to be merged/deleted and you would update me about it then I'll definitely support you. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:15, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

German words and phrases[edit]

Hi Marcocapelle,

I think I disagree with your removal of Fach from Category:German_words_and_phrases. If you look at the article it discusses terminology of various Fächer at length. But you're removing many other articles and it's hard to tell what your criteria are. Isn't Category_talk:German_words_and_phrases the obvious place to outline your project? Sparafucil (talk) 21:36, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

  • It is definitely the right place, but so far I've experienced that nobody ever replies when I post something as a category talk. It seems like this is just not a place where anyone would ever look into. Which I think is very unfortunate. As for your disagreement, I think generally I've been quite conservative, but occasionally I may have acted too quickly, like the one you mention. For further info please check Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_June_12#Category:French_words_and_phrases (which was posted merely as an example language). Marcocapelle (talk) 21:50, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, you could assume if no one replies there that it's not that controversial. I don't understand your rational though; can't you explain it? I didn't quite understand what you were getting at before withdrawing the Fr. deletion proposal either. Sparafucil (talk) 23:00, 20 July 2014 (UTC)


I'm thinking about renaming Category:Christian politics to Christianity and politics, as a subcategory of Religion and politics. Thoughts or input? Editor2020 18:50, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Definitely agree, not only for consistency, but also because it would additionally allow to classify controversies between Christianity and politics in here. Funny detail, two articles are already classified in Category:Christianity and politics while it doesn't even exist yet. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:27, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
@Editor2020: Wait, there's also a Category:Church and state law which is almost all (but not entirely) about Christianity and hence has a substantial overlap with Category:Christian politics. I think, ideally, the highest level should become:
and a level below that
(the latter two containing most of current Category:Christian politics but not the part overlapping parts with Category:Church and state law).

Marcocapelle (talk) 20:15, 20 July 2014 (UTC) Marcocapelle (talk) 20:22, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to add even more categories to the multitude we have now. Editor2020 20:12, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
ps. I'm not sure, but I think that Category:Church and state law is supposed to be about Separation (or non-separation) of Church and State, i.e "church and state" law. Editor2020 20:21, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Really? I hadn't even considered this. The current content of the category is also much broader than just that and I don't see an urgent reason to limit the contents to just separation issues. About what I wrote above, let's just forget it for now. If you propose the rename, I'll support it. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:27, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Category:Christian law[edit]

You seem to be changing the scope of Category:Christian law, as the articles you are adding do not fit the main article template, which is a link to Church order? Editor2020 03:11, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

@Editor2020: Yes, I know, this can't be the final solution. The previous main article used to be Canon law which did not make sense because Canon law is a category on its own. And there is no article about Christian law because it redirects to Canon law! So my bet is that the original intention has been to have this category for Canon law/Church order related topics. But currently the category has become a strange mix of Church order, the two new "Law" child cats and some single articles of which I'd say they are more about ethics or beliefs than about law.
I have deliberately not moved out anything from this category as I haven't figured out a solution yet. Though I did add Canon law as a child category. And I grouped the two "Law" child cats so that they can easily be transferred somewhere else if anyone would know good solution for this. Now I'm thinking of it again, maybe the best solution is to just split the Christian law category in two, so Christian law and Church Order? What's your opinion? Marcocapelle (talk) 17:20, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

July 2014[edit]

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Category tree[edit]

Do you know if it is possible to display a graphical representation of a category and all of its subcategories, up to X levels deep? Editor2020 21:08, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

It has been possible for sure, and I don't think the option was hard to find. Since I can't find it back now, I'm afraid the option has been removed. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:18, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I found one, it's at Special:CategoryTree, mysteriously enough. Editor2020 16:39, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

@Editor2020: Okay but that's just a list, not a real tree. In fact I found what I meant previously, it's namely in Dutch wikipedia, there it shows real trees. Every category page has a line in small font that says:

Hulpmiddelen: Alle categorieën - Toon bovenliggende categorieboom (png/svg) - Toon onderliggende categorieboom (png/svg) - Zoek artikelen met CatScan.

If you click the second from left (bovenliggend, either png or svg) you see all categories above and if you click the third (onderliggend, either png or svg) you see all categories below, including their interconnections. That is really cool! Marcocapelle (talk) 20:03, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Easter & History category[edit]

I don't understand the purpose of Category:Easter and history, which you created and stuck some articles into. What kind of articles should this category have? What related to Easter *isn't* also related to history? In particular, I don't see the merit in sticking the various alternate theories of the resurrection of Jesus into this article. "Easter" usually includes the holiday & the Christian theology thereof; these aren't exactly related to that, and the original Category:Resurrection of Jesus seems much more on point. But maybe I'm missing something? SnowFire (talk) 23:49, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Dear SnowFire, I've pointed out the scope of the category more clearly by indicating the lead article. In addition, please note that I created the category originally as a childcat of "Christianity and history", that's also how I got inspiration for this category name. If you feel the category should be named differently (most likely in accordance with the lead article), feel free to propose and I won't object. Also, if you think it is more appropriate to have this category as a child of Category:Resurrection of Jesus rather than of Category:Easter, I won't object either. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


I added Category:Anglo-Saxon gods, but it displays as Category:English gods. Editor2020 03:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Just checked, apparently Category:Anglo-Saxon gods is being redirected to Category:English gods. It might be a good idea to reverse this redirection, or not? Marcocapelle (talk) 05:58, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Italian municipalities CFD[edit]

Please see my response at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_July_15, which explains the rationale for "Communes" rather than municipalities.

Oh, and see also Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_July_13#Category:Proposed_public_transport_in_Brazil which I think will be to your liking, as it allows most of one layer to be removed. – Fayenatic London 14:14, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

large tree exception[edit]

The main reason for this exception is that it would create large categories if we upmerged a whole lot of small categories into a larger one. Another reason for the exception is that in some places we are categorizing by a basic trait of the articles involved. Nationality and occupation are both well established traits. I think in general as long as there are enough articles to justify having a particular occupation category split by nationality, we should split by all nationalities we can find.

CfD closure[edit]

Hi, thanks for your interest in closing CfD discussions, especially during the current backlog.

You asked here about withdrawing a nomination. It's fine to do this early on if you see it as a mistake. Please either just record "withdrawn", or do both the following:

  1. close the discussion with {{cfd top}} and -bottom templates. See WP:CFDAI for where they go.
  2. then, remove the template from the category page(s).

However, once there has been substantial discussion, I don't think you should do this. It's fine to record "withdrawn", but an independent closer might judge that there has been sufficient discussion to close it as a "keep" outcome, which has some value as a precedent and should be recorded on the category talk page.

Incidentally, if you feel like closing any discussions in which you have not participated, that would be very welcome. Please read WP:Non-admin closure and WP:Consensus if you have not done closures before. Any that you judge have a consensus of "Keep" or "No consensus", you could implement yourself. The instructions are at WP:CFDAI.

If you would like to do Non-Admin Closures of any of the early ones outstanding on the list at WP:CFDAC, I'll be willing to implement any of your closures that need admin rights (i.e. deleting, merging or renaming). Let me know on or off-wiki if you would like any more guidance! – Fayenatic London 12:28, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


If classical religions are no longer regarded as paganism, then what is? There is 3000+ years of sources referring to it as paganism. Isn't it verging on OR to say that it's no longer used? Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:03, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

You need to be very careful about using Wikipedia's naming of articles to determine status and should use the definition of Paganism provided in the article,

"a broad group of indigenous and historical polytheistic religious traditions—primarily those of cultures known to the classical world. In a wider sense, paganism has also been understood to include any non-Abrahamic, folk, or ethnic religion."

If it's polytheistic, indigenous, non-Abrahamic and old, it's paganism. If it's not old, it's neopaganism. Editor2020 02:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Some further observations on the definition in Paganism:
  1. "indigenous religions" redirects to ethnic religion, so this part of the definition excludes Hellenism and Ancient Roman religion
  2. "of cultures known to the classical world": is by this part of the definition paganism including or excluding classical religions? I would say the latter.
  3. The next line says: "Modern ethnologists often avoid referring to non-classical and non-European, traditional and historical faiths as pagan". Which again says "non-classical" and besides the whole sentence seems to imply that Paganism shouldn't really be used as a category on Wikipedia at all.
  4. Also the further text of the article is far from fluent, apparently edited by different people with different views on paganism. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:11, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
It's like it was written by committee! Editor2020 16:15, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Category:Black Hebrew Israelite religious leaders[edit]

Delete per WP:SMALLCAT? Editor2020 02:00, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

  • It seems like opinions diverge a bit when a category is small enough for WP:SMALLCAT. Personally I only take the initiative for a SMALLCAT nomination for categories of size 1 or 2. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Searching past CfD discussions[edit]

The easiest is to try the search box on the CfD page. For this one, as an admin, I went to the deleted page information and found out when the old page there was nominated and then pointed to that discussion. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! Marcocapelle (talk) 17:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)