User talk:Neitrāls vārds

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Welcome[edit]

Hello, Neitrāls vārds! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Wikipedia. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already excited about Wikipedia, you might want to consider being "adopted" by a more experienced editor or joining a WikiProject to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click here for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field when making edits to pages. Happy editing! Edgars2007 (talk/contribs) 09:23, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
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Latvian grammar[edit]

Just a heads up. In the table you inserted it says vēlējuma izteiksme is subjunctive, which apparently is same thing as conjunctive, which according to some sources is atstāstījuma izteiksme. This could potentially result in someone mixing the two up.
P.S. About [1], I somewhat disagree, the article only needs a section giving brief general description as there are articles for more extensive description; you can't serve every person who doesn't even look more carefully before complaining ~~Xil (talk) 19:49, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Latvian tones[edit]

Hi! There is an article for Lithuanian: Lithuanian accentuation, which could serve as a model for the discussion on Latvian tones/accent.. (But it's incomplete, it misses tables for verbs!) The biggest problem is 1) the painful lack of literature in English 2) Baltic and Slavic specialist tend to use their own special transcription and not IPA. E.g. I'm not ever sure that symbols used for Serbo-Croatian pitch accent are 100% accurate, and those used for Slovene also look very suspicious to me...although, if we're more dealing with abstract idealized notation at the segmental level (i.e. phonemic transcription) it doesn't really matter which symbols we use as long as the notation is consistent. Cheers! --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 23:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about the "convertibility" (if one wants a "unified system" to compare Southern Slavic languages with Baltic, for example.) Furthermore I haven't had too much exposure to Lithuanian but it seemed that it uses only "broken" tone (in Latvian notation, anyhow.) Yet at the same time great emphasis is put on tones in Lithuanian dictionaries, go figure, I'm not one to judge, since I barely know anything about it. Also I've heard that vowel quantity (length) in orthography (e.g. ⟨ū⟩) is pretty much a formality in Lithuanian, which from my POV seemed true because I have never heard any actually long vowels in Lithuanian, granted I've had limited exposure. This is similar to transcriptions of Italian that indicate stressed vowels as long, for example, giving IPA for "Milano" as [miˈlaːno] although I'd describe it only, maybe, as "half-long." Conversely in some Serbocroat words the vowels are actually long enough to qualify as long, for example here
the ⟨a⟩ in "Franjo" would qualify to be an ⟨ā⟩ in Latvian, the IPA in the article (Franjo Tuđman) however also shows the ⟨a⟩ in "Tuđman" as a long [aː] as well, although it sounds short (its quantity is definitely different than the ⟨a⟩ in "Franjo.") OK, what I'm trying to say with this long vowel example is that different languages will have vastly different definitions of what counts as, say, a "long vowel" or what counts as a "non-broken" tone, etc., so, Idk, it would be altogether better to stick to their native systems? That's what I'm thinking. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 02:48, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Actually Serbo-Croatian has 20 vowels: a,e,i,u,o, but each can take 4 different accent (short/long + rising/falling). Plus there is also the syllabic /r/ that can also take 4 different accents. And each of those 6 can post-tonically (i.e. after the accented syllable) be short or long... Just because the length it's not written in normal orthography, it doesn't mean it's not there!
Tones are primarily important to dialectologists..most native speakers are not aware of their pitch contours and vowel lengths. Unfortunately most of the important literature is written only in native languages, which leaves it up to us to translate it to English and share with the rest of the world :) --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:48, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Phonetics is definitely not my strongest pursuit. :) The vowel quantity example above could be a shortfall of IPA? Maybe their length could be expressed as a numerical value thus satisfying users like me who feel that a in Milano is not long enough to be fully long... But in that case why not use IPA's half long symbol? Anyways, I can live with that. :) That being said there is a certain user on lv.wiki who I know has been wanting to make a referenced IPA table for LV for quite some time (or rather a conversion table from LTS to IPA.) Here is a draft: lv:Lietotājs:Kikos/Transkribēšana, as I understand it is not going too well not only do they use different notation their definitions for actual sounds differ (which is the main culprit for not being able to do it if I understand correctly.) So, I suspect any LV literature on the subject of tones would use the native notation and one would be lucky if there was actually any in depth discussion...
Also, I had a question that you maybe know the answer to, what is the name of the "compensatory mechanism" where an intervocalic consonant becomes geminate (lengthens) if the stressed vowel is short, but doesn't lengthen if the (stressed syllable) vowel is long: e.g., bāka would have a short [k] (because the [a] is long I guess) ['ba:ka] but, e.g., bakas would have a long ("geminate") [k] - ['bak:as] or ⟨bakkas⟩ respelling it "phonetically." Basically one of them needs to be long if not the vowel then the consonant. Was this prosody? Although I don't think. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your recent edits ;) Regarding the question above - I have no idea what would that phonetic device be called, or whether it has name of its own (probably not). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:12, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it appears to be simply called "interdependent length" – short V long C or vice versa. Btw, as far as my recent edits although I removed all the "careless conjecture" made by me prior, the "relationships of tones" tree diagram is not without problems. I just stumbled on a paper by a certain Kortlandt trying to find something on PIE laryngeals-broken tone, and he is being extremely snarky towards Poljakov (the guy who made that tree diagr. I included in the article) and doubting the branch F splits into L and B. Kortlandt thinks that B is more "ancient" only preserved in Žemait. and Latv. but lost in Lith. and Slav. and basically that he's wrong. I do have to say that it's annoying that the Poljakov guy equated acute and circumflex with the values they have in Lith. when Lith. in fact switched them, I was trying to figure out why acute is "rising" in Serbocroat and all other langs but suddenly "falling" in Balt. Apparently that's the reason. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 00:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Kortlandt is a smart guy, but his theories are not generally accepted outside his group of followers (mostly at the University of Leiden). I think that the historical development of accents/tones in Balto-Slavic languages should best be kept outside the articles on pitch accent, phonology and similar, and dealt with in a separate article, because there are many theories and no general agreement among historical linguists which was the original state of affairs, which languages are archaic and which underwent metatony, and similar. For all we know, there cold me more support among scholars or Poljakov's theories, than Kortlandt's! So limiting the coverage to synchronic picture of modern dialects and standard languages would be the best IMHO. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 07:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
I do have to say that Poljakov's model is more to my liking. :D My suspicion has been for quite a while that at least the 2 Rīga "tones" are actually suprasegmentals (glot. and overlong respectively) most of the phonological stuff I've seen that I also put up there seems to agree with this. I also suspect that Latvian has "gone shopping for tones" for all minimal pairs and they might have less to do with glottochronology and more with semantics. (Uralic Livonian's sudden acquiring of broken tone would be a nice example.) <-- That borders on OR though. Also Kortlandt needs unstressed broken tones in Latvian due to the fixed 1st syl. stress which creates problems because phonologically they're really only distinguished in stressed syls (i.e., the 1st). Last but not least there is the word "ancient" attached to that theory which in my observations tends to attract nationalist types (= not good for constructive discussion).
So, yeah, Poljakov's is less problematic, the only annoying thing is the switching places of acute and circ. terminology-wise in Baltic for which I'm willing to take Kortlandt's word that Lithuanian switched them. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 16:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

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update[edit]

Please, can you: -update that map to include Latvia which adopted the Euro (the requirement to be included in IMF advanced economies group) this year -change the title to: IMF advanced economies, eliminating the year, so the image can be updated regularly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.128.236.143 (talk) 18:41, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

This map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IMF_advanced_economies_2008.svg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.128.236.143 (talk) 18:44, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I see someone already updated it, there is Latvia on that map now. The thumbnails still show the old version though (this can be fixed if you click Ctrl + R to purge the cache). Neitrāls vārds (talk) 23:21, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Spash did it. However, do you mind creating maps for:
Globalisation index(http://globalization.kof.ethz.ch/media/filer_public/2013/03/25/rankings_2013.pdf)
Social Progress Index (http://www.socialprogressimperative.org/data/spi)
Web index (http://thewebindex.org/)
Possibly:
Space Competitiveness Index--89.128.236.143 (talk) 19:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Is seems I overasked...--89.128.236.143 (talk) 11:24, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to reply. It is very easy to update a map (esp. if it has just one color) – you just open it in a simple text editor like Notepad and add the country code where the color is specified but more complicated to start a map from scratch (although users experienced with SVG prob. can do it much quicker.)
I was actually looking at the world GDP map and thinking of maybe making an SVG version of it 'cause the PNG is really outdated but Idk if I could find time for any of that rn.
I found this: Wikipedia:Graphics Lab/Map workshop maybe request there? Those who are more experienced with SVG may find it not at all complicated. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 12:15, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

PERFECT! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.128.236.143 (talk) 18:37, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

But no one responded for several days... They are asleep, I suppose, and I am no prince charming, so you are my only hope, then...--89.128.236.143 (talk) 05:42, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Ctrl ++[edit]

Yeah, right I tried your Ctrl ++, and it was fun, but how am I going to get rid of it? What shall I press now to go back to normal? Hafspajen (talk) 22:17, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

OK; never mind. I tried my logic, Ctr -- got it back. Hafspajen (talk) 22:20, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
He he, funny guy you are. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 00:38, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Your name[edit]

Just a quick note to say that I love your username. It's the best I've seen all day. Thanks for making me smile, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 04:27, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I guess. I do have to say it annoys me on occasion as the language it's in fails to differentiate between a "name" and a "word." "Neutral name" sounds fine but "neutral word" way pretentious!
Coincidentally I have to say the same about your name, it describes perfectly well my emotions on this little hobby I have more than occasionally, I think the next time I forget my log-in I'm totally stealing (a modified version of) it! :D Neitrāls vārds (talk) 04:59, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
You are totally welcome to the idea. My name started as, "What am I doing, and is this what I really want to be doing with my time?" Now it some days feels more like, "What am I doing? How am I screwing up?" Face-wink.svg Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 15:37, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Re: Creating lower case entries on Wiktionary[edit]

Hi Neitrāls vārds, I have responded to your query here. Thanks. Ganeshk (talk) 06:46, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Finland as a baltic country - interbellum period[edit]

Thanks for the comment regarding my removal of text describing Finland as a baltic country. I agree that the definition has changed during time, but the notion that Finland was considered a baltic country, even during the interbellum period, is false.

There are no accurate period sources or later sources that share this view. I have only seen one period dictionary that includes this false notion. Other sources have always maintained that Finland is a Nordic country. The interbellum period did not cut Finland's ties to the other Nordics, most notably Sweden. You have to remember that Swedish remained as the official language of Finland during this time and the countries enjoyed close relations both culturally and economically.

With this logic all the countries that were under Russian influence located on the shores of the baltic sea would be considered baltic. This would make the definition to include (in addition to Finland) Poland (during the Polish people's republic) or even Germany (Soviet occupation zone / East Germany).

You also have to take in account that Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were parts of Russia, whereas Finland was an autonomyous grand dutchy that operated under Russian rule (parallers can be drawn for example. between this arrangement and Hong Kong's situation with regards to China today)

You have to take the Estonian president's speech with a grain of salt and understand the motivations behind it, which were mainly to associate Estonia with Finland due to Estonia's bid to be regarded as a Nordic country and in order to motivate the people of his country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.152.97.49 (talk) 17:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a tertiary source. What this means is that we report what other people have said, it is not up to us to judge whether these people were "right" or "wrong."
In regards to Russian Empire the situation was somewhat similar to Finland in LV and EE, except instead of a Swedish ruling class we had a Baltic German ruling class just because a country was not de facto ruled by Russians (only de iure) doesn't mean it precludes it being considered Baltic at that specific time (but not anymore), or to put it another way there is no specific requirement to be ruled by Russians to be a Baltic state (as you can see with the Baltic German ruling class in LV and EE).
Either way all this nitpicking is pointless because as I said it is not up to us to "find out the truth." Wikipedia only reports what other people are saying in veritable sources. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 08:02, 22 August 2014 (UTC)