User talk:Nlu

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Sui dynasty ancestry[edit]

Who did the Sui dynasty claim descent from? The Tang dynasty claimed descent from Laozi and Li Guang to establish that they were patrilineally Han to ward off people claiming they were Xianbei, and even constructed the geneaology all the way back to Laozi for that purpose, the Sui claimed their patrilineal lineage was Han too but I don't have the family tree or specific ancestor from Han dynasty times. I put this information into the Tang dynasty article and we need to do it for the Sui dynasty as well.Rajmaan (talk) 02:34, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Yang Jian claimed ancestry from Yang Zhen. Did you want a more extensive list? If so, I can look at it tomorrow. --Nlu (talk) 03:03, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
i want the entire geneaology and a reference for descent from Yang Zhen.Rajmaan (talk) 03:23, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
I'll try to give a list tomorrow, but the source is the Book of Sui, vol. 1, regardless. --Nlu (talk) 03:28, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, I wasn't reading carefully last night — I was tired, but it does not give a complete genealogy from Yang Zhen (perhaps, one might skeptically think, part of that genealogy was made up, perhaps, although a little later I'll take a look at the New Book of Tang to see if it gives a more complete genealogy, whether real or made up. But this is what it does give:

  • Yang Xuan (楊鉉), 8th generation descendant of Yang Zhen, governor of Beiping for Yan (unclear which of the Yan states — Former Yan, Later Yan, or Northern Yan)
  • Yang Yuanshou (楊元壽), son of Yang Xuan, officer at Wuchuan Base in Northern Wei
  • Yang Huigu (楊惠嘏), son of Yang Yuanshou, governor of Taiyuan
  • Yang Lie (楊烈), son of Yang Huigu, governor of Pingyuan
  • Yang Zhong (楊忠), son of Yang Lie, general for Northern Wei, Western Wei, Northern Zhou
  • Yang Jian, son of Yang Zhong

As I said, I'll look at the New Book of Tang in a bit. --Nlu (talk) 14:35, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

In fact, the New Book of Tang does give a more extensive genealogy (part of it was before Yang Zhen, all the way back to King Xuan of Zhou), but also skips generations until Yang Xuan. Let me know if you want that, too. But under Yang Zhen, this is what it has:[1]
  • Yang Mu (楊牧), son of Yang Zhen, governor of Jing

...

  • Yang Yun (楊孕), 10th generation descendant of Yang Mu

...

  • Yang Qu (楊渠), 6th generation descendant of Yang Yun, father of Yang Xuan
Obviously, the genealogy here gives substantially different generational assertions regarding the people between Yang Zhen and Yang Xuan than the Book of Sui. I have no idea which, if either at all, was accurate. --Nlu (talk) 14:41, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
I can use the dotted line and hidden template text to deal with the skipped generations and conflicting family trees, I want the entire ancestral line as far as the texts record.Rajmaan (talk) 01:28, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, this is what the New Book of Tang says, basically:

  • There are multiple conflicting accounts as to how the Yangs originated, with the various theories being (note that I used surnames here; the use of surnames for pre-Qin people is controversial among historians, as you might know, but I advocate the use of surnames to the extent possible):
    • Ji Shangfu (姬尚夫), the son of King Xuan of Zhou, as the Marquess of Yang.
    • Ji Tu (姬突), the Yangshe Daifu (羊舌大夫) of Jin (this is the Zhou state), who was the son of Ji Wen (姬文), the son of Ji Boqiao (姬伯僑), the son of Duke Wu of Jin.
    • An unnamed Jin noble, who had his fief at Yangshe, which consisted of three counties, one of which was Yangshi (楊氏).
  • Although it listed the Ji Shangfu theory first, the New Book of Tang ended up appearing to adopt the Ji Tu theory, as it then listed:
    • Ji Zhi (姬職), the son of Ji Tu.
    • Ji Zhi had four sons (of the five that were given names in the New Book of Tang) who settled in Yangshe:
      • Ji Chi (姬赤), the Tongdi Daifu (銅鞮大夫). (Note that under the "unnamed noble" theory, Tongdi was one of the counties of Yangshe fief.)
      • Ji Shi (姬肸).
      • Ji Fu (姬鮒).
      • Ji Xiong (姬熊).
  • It then did not list a genealogy from thereon (and did not indicate which of the four lineages it was tracing), until...
    • Ji Shuxiang (姬叔向), the Taifu of Jin, who was given Yangshi as his fief.
    • Ji Boshi (姬伯石), who decided to take Yang as a surname, and thereafter became known as Yang Shi (楊石). He was a partisan of the powerful official Qi Ying (祁盈). After Qi's destruction, the Yangshi lineage was also (except, as explained below, those who fled) extinguished.
  • Some of Ji Shuxiang's descendants (it does not say whether they were Ji Boshi/Yang Shi's descendants or not) fled to Huayin — which became the eventual claimed ancestral land of the Yangs, down to the Tang (and modern) times.
    • It then picked up the lineage with one Yang Zhang (楊章), who was not mentioned as having any official titles.
    • Yang Kuan (楊款), the son of Yang Zhang, was a minister of Qin. (It doesn't mention whether this was while Qin was a state late in Warring States times or after unification.)
    • Yang Shuo (楊碩), the son of Yang Kuan, who followed Liu Bang while Liu was the Duke of Pei and served as his historian. (This implied that he lived to the founding of the Han Dynasty.)
    • Yang Xi (楊喜), the son of Yang Shuo, Marquess Yan of Chiquan during Han.
    • Yang Fu (楊敷), the son of Yang Xi, Marquess Ding of Chiquan.
    • Yang Yin (楊胤), the son of Yang Fu
    • Yang Chang (楊敞), the son of Yang Yin, prime minister of Han, Marquess Jing of Anping. (The New Book of Tang does not explain further, Yang Chang was in fact prime minister from the time of Emperor Zhao of Han to Emperor Xuan of Han, and was apparently a son-in-law of Sima Qian.)
    • Yang Zhong (楊忠), the son of Yang Chang, Marquess Qin of Anping.
    • Yang Tan (楊譚), the son of Yang Zhong, the Marquess of Anping. (The lack of a posthumous name suggested that his fiefdom was stripped at some point. It could be at the time when Wang Mang established Xin Dynasty, but no explanation was given in the New Book of Tang.)
    • Yang Bao (楊寶), the son of Yang Tan.
    • Yang Zhen, the son of Yang Bao.

That takes us down to Yang Zhen, which you can then connect to the above. --Nlu (talk) 01:55, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I need the characters for Yang Zhen. If Yang Xuan is an eighth generation descendant, that means I leave seven blank boxes (for unknown generations) between him and Yang Zhen on the family tree?Rajmaan (talk) 14:18, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Yang Zhen is 楊震. Using seven blanks seems reasonable. --Nlu (talk) 00:27, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Was the Tang genealogy listed in the New Book of Tang or Book of Tang? I have it already but I need to attribute it to its source.Rajmaan (talk) 16:36, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
New Book of Tang (as part of the family trees of the chancellors). --Nlu (talk) 16:39, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
拜托就别误导不懂汉语的人士了,隋唐两代君主的世系都是编造的,陈寅恪早已证明并得到了史学界的公认,杨坚根本就不可能是中古名族弘农杨氏杨震的后裔。另外发出来的资料姓氏都不分,先秦时期男子称氏女子称姓,绝无姬某某的存在。——115.152.118.50 (talk) 22:27, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

(unindent) I understand your point. I also find this attitude unhelpful. The Sui (and Tang) genealogies may very well have been forged. Certainly, as another example, the Southern Tang genealogy was. But it's better for the readers to have all the information available to them so that they could judge themselves. By providing this information, I don't think we are in any way guaranteeing its authenticity. --Nlu (talk) 00:13, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

《周书·杨忠传》根本就没记载杨惠暇,《隋书·高祖纪》里面的杨元寿之孙杨烈在《周书》里面成了杨元寿之子,《周书》和《隋书》都是唐朝初年编订的,这两种世系就出现矛盾了,还让读者判断,请问怎么判断?全部的信息?那应该在隋朝或杨坚的条目里面写,还要加上陈寅恪以及支持他意见的蒙曼、韩升、袁刚的,而不是在family tree里面加入被证明是谬误的内容。--117.44.166.81 (talk) 01:21, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
You are free to do that yourself. In fact, I didn't do it and wasn't planning on doing it, but when a fellow editor requests for language help, it is good policy to render help. Other editors care more about things that I don't care as much about, and I still do help when I can when it comes to language. --Nlu (talk) 01:24, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
你提供《新唐书·宰相世系表》的内容当然是出于好心,我很赞赏,但问题是提供的内容错的离谱,这就叫好心办坏事,我就说这么多。--117.44.166.81 (talk) 01:46, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 10[edit]

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Later Han[edit]

The various non-Han leaders often claimed fictive relations, whether through actual claimed ancestry or adopted relationships (surname bestowal). The Later Tang received their surname from the Tang dynasty and Later Jin claimed descent from a Han official, what did the Later Han claim and how did they choose the surname? Can I have the source?Rajmaan (talk) 03:43, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

I'll try to look at the issue tomorrow. --Nlu (talk) 04:38, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
The Old History of the Five Dynasties, vol. 99, does not claim a Han origin at all; it directly states that Liu Zhiyuan's origins were Shatuo. Same for the New History of the Five Dynasties, vol. 10. The Wudai Huiyao, vol. 1 contained a bare assertion that Liu Zhiyuan's great-great-grandfather Liu Tuan (劉湍) (posthumously honored Emperor Mingyuan with the temple name of Wenzu) was a descendant of Liu Bing (劉昞) the Prince of Huaiyang, a son of Emperor Ming of Han, with no attempt to trace the ancestry. --Nlu (talk) 21:55, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

June 2014[edit]

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  • Also in 934, Liu Yan allowed his then-surviving oldest son [[Liu Bin (Southern Han|Liu Hongdu]] the Prince of Qin (Liu Hongdu's older brothers Liu Yaoshu and Liu Guitu

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How to convert from Chinese calendar to Western calendar during BCE.--113.168.101.127 (talk) 03:21, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Beats me. Because the Academia Sinica converter does not support BC dates, I don't know how to do it. There probably are reference works available for it in Taiwanese universities' libraries, but I am not visiting Taiwan any time soon and therefore can't be certain. --Nlu (talk) 03:24, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

FYI[edit]

FYI, some poorly-done bot or automation ran through and replaced the apostrophes we use for italics with ".27". It messed up about 300 + articles that use sfn and harv ref templates, including some of your biographies of historic figures in China. I am one of the people trying to clean up the mess and saw your articles were in the mess - it hit a couple of "my" articles as well. If you see any of yours that I missed, just replace the ".27.27" with two apostrophes ( '' ) to create italics like we normally do and all should be well, I hope. Montanabw(talk) 05:05, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I appreciate it, and I'll be on the watch out for it. --Nlu (talk) 05:26, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

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