User talk:Paul Erik
Welcome to my talk page.
- 1 Lindeman
- 2 Clue Dungeons & Dragons
- 3 Dave Gross
- 4 Another sourcing database treasure
- 5 Joshua A.C. Newman
- 6 Boy band IP
- 7 Bernie Cahill
- 8 Gareth-Michael Skarka
- 9 Brett Ewins
- 10 You don't know about Angstschluss?
- 11 User: Pootrick
- 12 Joseph and Melissa Batten
- 13 Why?
- 14 John Hill (game designer)
- 15 Eric Polak
- 16 Michael Bennighof
Hey there - I'm a newbie (please don't bite me!) and I am writing to ask a question about a page that is about me. I know - I have read the guidelines - I won't try to edit it - just trying to understand wikipedia's customs and policies. I noticed you were a prolific editor and creator of pages about Canadian musicians so I wrote you. thanks! Tlindeman (talk) 17:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
- Hello, and welcome, User:Tlindeman. How can I be of help? Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 22:18, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
− Hi there - thank you for your help!
− I have a band called The Weather Station, (lots of info on the web). Recently somebody tried to make a wikipedia page for it, but then I saw it was re-directed/merged into an existing wikipedia page, that is about my (mostly teenage) acting career. I've also noticed that elsewhere on wikipedia when The Weather Station is mentioned, (ie on the 'Bahamas' page) it now re-directs to 'Tamara Hope'. I'm wondering if there is a precedent for this. In acting, I am credited as 'Tamara Hope' and in music I am credited as 'Tamara Lindeman' - 'The Weather Station' is my music, and it is mostly me, but it is also a band. Obviously, I used two different names because the two careers don't overlap, and because I was and am very interested in maintaining my personal privacy (I had weird and dark experiences being a teenage female actor at the dawning of the internet). I understand that it's not wikipedia's job to respect my choices, and that I am considered 'biased' about my own life (and I am freely admitting my bias here) - but on the other hand, I have noticed that there are many moniker'd musicians who have separate wikipages for themselves as people and their mostly solo bands - ie. Phil Elvrum vs. The Microphones vs. Mount Eerie - and that makes sense to me as a fan of his. Obviously I feel that 'The Weather Station' should be it's own page (that would link to my personal page), as it's not always just me, but also, I just feel like it's confusing. If you're going to wikipedia to figure out who that girl in the Disney channel movie you watched as a kid is - you're looking for Tamara Hope. If you're wondering when 'All Of It Was Mine' came out - you're looking for The Weather Station.
− I understand Wikipedia is a community, and I must say, it's a rather opaque and confusing one - I wonder if there is a policy on or precedent regarding this, and also curious to know why the page was deleted without discussion.
− Thank you!
- Okay, Tamara. To review, and to let me check that I have the relevant information here:
- An encyclopedia article which is a biography typically would include everything about that person in the one article, not separate out different parts of their career into separate articles.
- But if that person is part of a notable band, the band does get a separate article. (And the musician gets a biography if they are notable independent of the band.)
- You are saying that The Weather Station (as seen here and here and here), while "mostly" you, ought to be considered as a band, not as a moniker of Tamara Lindeman—in other words, not a solo music project.
- From what I can gather, The Weather Station is notable, as it has multiple reliable independent sources that have written about it in some depth. Examples include the Orangeville Banner, Exclaim, CBC Music, CBC's Q, Exclaim, Exclaim, Exclaim, Exclaim, Toro Magazine, Toronto Star, Pitchfork, Pitchfork, and PopMatters. Offline, I've also found articles about The Weather Station in The Frederick News-Post, and in the Saint John newspaper Here.
- The sources are mixed: some of them say "Tara Lindeman, a.k.a. The Weather Station", while some say The Weather Station is Lindeman's "project", while a few refer to The Weather Station as a band with Lindeman as a member.
Hey Paul, Your information is correct, and I might add, your research is great! Certainly The Weather Station has been just me for a good chunk of its history - but it was a full on band from 2006-2010 or so as reflected in the coverage and press photos of that era (I can grab you examples if you want). When that band ended (sadly), I sort of went solo for a while (the all of it was mine era), and then assembled a new band in late 2013 - a four piece (myself, Ben Whiteley, Adrian Cook, & Ian Kehoe). We almost made a record together but then I got the chance to make one in France without the guys, so I did that. The albums have all been collaborative - the duets series is referred to as 'The Weather Station Presents'. The whole idea of the name was that it could change over time, covering solo or band work in different genres and different contexts - I conceived it as a project, not just me playing songs. That's why I didn't release my records as Tamara Lindeman. To differentiate, I personally am credited as Tamara Lindeman when I appear on other people's records, (and for that matter, on my own records), except in a few cases, ie. the duets project, where the project as a whole was being released under the Weather Station umbrella and was meant to be a part of the discography. I didn't make that Weather Station wikipage - if I had I would have set it up differently - as a band, not a human. And I would welcome the chance to acknowledge the contributions of everyone who has been a part of it. And am I reading correctly the revision history that someone else set up a The Weather Station page in the past that was also re-directed? Thanks! Tamara Tlindeman (talk) 17:34, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- @Tlindeman: Yes, there have been attempts to create a separate article at The Weather Station and at The Weather Station (musician) (as well as Draft:The Weather Station (musician) now) but, as you can see from the page histories, User:Bearcat redirected them to the Tamara Hope biography. This was under the assumption that The Weather Station is a stage name of Tamara Hope/Lindeman. Bearcat discussed the decision to redirect them at User talk:Patrick outside. As I understand things now, the other side of the argument about separate articles is:
- At times, The Weather Station has referred to a solo music project, but at other times to a band of which Tamara Lindeman has been the one constant member. Reliable sources support that.
- Based on the coverage in reliable sources, The Weather Station might now well be more notable than Tamara Hope's acting career was.
- As to the question of what best serves the readers, it might be argued that having The Weather Station redirect to an article about an actress from a Disney Channel movie is a violation of the principle of least astonishment, known on Wikipedia as WP:ASTONISH.
- Since I have linked Bearcat's name, this will alert him to this discussion and I would welcome his input. He is a very experienced editor whose editorial judgment I respect. As you suggested above, some of what's happened is in part due to User:Patrick outside's approach to starting the article, and coming across as a bit forceful about it perhaps. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 00:50, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Paul Erik! This all makes perfect sense to me. Bearcat - I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
- I did a little digging - many of the old press links I have are broken now (it doesn't help that two of our weeklies have folded over the last couple years) - but I have a few live ones talking about The Weather Station in the first band era:
- There were also brief notices in The Toronto Star and The Globe and Mail - in some cases I have the date, etc, but I don't know how to properly search their sites.
I am not, for the record, fundamentally opposed to the idea that we could handle the distinction differently than we do at present. The problem was that Patrick's version of the article was nothing more than a straight copy-pasted duplicate of the existing article, without actually adding any new substance to demonstrate that The Weather Station was a distinct topic in any meaningful way — it simply described The Weather Station as Tamara's solo project, and then proceeded to repeat content that's already in the other article anyway. As written, it made no substantive claim that would have enabled The Weather Station and Tamara-as-an-individual to stand as two separate topics — it literally amounted to exactly nothing more than "The Weather Station is a stage name that Tamara Lindemann uses when making music instead of acting, so here's a duplicate repost of the exact same article you'd see if you looked at her existing biography." It certainly might be possible to write a substantive and well-sourced article which demonstrates that they should be treated as two separate topics instead of one merged one — but Patrick's article, as written, wasn't it. (And since Patrick had the name of The Weather Station's record label right in his username, it also posed a conflict of interest issue, to boot.)
The other issue here is that the existing article is sourced entirely to coverage of The Weather Station, and doesn't actually cite a single reliable source about her acting work at all. Our notability rules for actors are not that any actor who exists automatically gets an article that just serves as a virtual duplicate of their IMDb profile — rather, an actor's article still has to cite reliable source coverage which demonstrates that they have accomplished something that passes WP:NACTOR. But as written, the existing article is completely failing to do that, and is instead sourcing her notability entirely onto her music — so if the music stuff was spun off to a separate article, then the existing article about her acting would instantly turn into a completely unsourced article which would then have to be redirected to the band. So even if we can write a better article about The Weather Station than Patrick did, that's still only half of the equation here — we would also have to salvage the acting BLP with some actual sourcing about her acting, or else we'd simply be flipping the exact same issue onto the other side of the coin rather than resolving anything.
So just to summarize, I'm not fundamentally opposed to the idea that we could cover Tamara Hope and The Weather Station as two separate topics instead of one merged one — the problem was that Patrick's version of a separate article about The Weather Station, as written, wasn't making or sourcing a credible case for why we should do it that way. Bearcat (talk) 22:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks very much Bearcat. Lots of very good points. I'll first make some effort to source the actress biography better, and then potentially move towards have two (better-)sourced articles that are not just covering the same topic. Cheers. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 23:09, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for the clarification bearcat - this all makes total sense to me.
- The new, committed band includes Ben Whiteley, Adrian Cook, Ian Kehoe - as introduced several times in this CBC interview, and talked about below:
- I've also consistently had Ivy Mairi and Misha Bower (from Bruce Peninsula) as backup singers. Sometimes Carleigh Aikens replaces Misha Bower.
- The band 2006-2010 was myself, Jack Donovan, Simon Borer, Dwight Schenk, Elaine Kelly - they are mentioned in the links I posted above as well as others it will take some digging to find. Here they are in the liner notes to my first album: https://stationweather.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/thelinesecondpanel.jpg
- The second record (All Of It Was Mine) was a collaboration with Daniel Romano. http://exclaim.ca/Music/article/bruce_peninsula_offshoot_weather_station_preps_daniel_romano-produced_sophomore_lp
- The third record (Loyalty) is a collaboration with Afie Jurvanen and Robbie Lackritz, http://exclaim.ca/Music/article/weather_station_signs_to_paradise_of_bachelors_for_loyalty_lp, and Afie has been playing live with me at shows when he's in town as noted here: http://exclaim.ca/Music/article/youve_changed_records_fifth_anniversary_showcase_with_daniel_romano_shotgun_jimmie_weather_station-horseshoe_tavern_toronto_on_may_22
- It has always been my band, but many people have been involved.
- Thanks, Tlindeman; all that will be helpful towards building the article. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 16:23, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Hey user: Paul Erik I'm curious to know - what happens next? Were you thinking of creating an article? Or should I try laying the groundwork, make a draft, and then ask you and /or bearcat to review it and see if things are up to Wikipedian standards? I've really appreciated you guys taking the time with this and I just wonder, as I say, what happens now. All the best - Tlindeman (talk) 00:29, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
- Hi Tamara. Yes, I do plan to work on it. I was hoping to have a chance last weekend, but this coming weekend seems more likely. As I update the original biography and create a Weather Station article, please let me know your feedback and suggestions, either here on my talk page, or on the articles' talk pages. I'd suggest not working on it directly yourself, out of conflict-of-interest concerns as well as other reasons explained at Wikipedia:Autobiography. Thanks, Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 02:36, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Hey Paul Erik, I saw the changes you made to the acting page - that's some good sleuthing - I'd forgotten about most of that! I'll put feedback up there if there is any, but really, my concern from the beginning has just simply been clearing up the redirect and having a separate place for information on The Weather Station to collect, even if it was just a stub... I very much appreciate your work and dedication to your encyclopedia and can't believe your ability to pull things from ancient newspapers! So sorry to even wander in here again... Tlindeman (talk) 23:33, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks; yes, I first wanted to work on the Tamara Hope article (as Bearcat also suggested) before getting to work on The Weather Station article, which I still plan to do. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 00:01, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
- Hi BOZ. No, sorry my searching did not find anything. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 01:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi, Paul. I just started this little stub from an existing redirect. Would you have any sources for him? I know he has also written novels, so anything you find like that is probably him if it's sci-fi/fantasy. BOZ (talk) 00:07, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you, sir! :) BOZ (talk) 02:16, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- Would you mind adding a little bit from the reviews to Black Wolf, Lord of Stormweather, Winterheim, and A Warrior's Journey? :) BOZ (talk) 16:58, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Another sourcing database treasure
God, I love digging into the ProQuest database for references. Just found this fantastic quote that I had to share with somebody.
|“||On the other hand, the Barenaked Ladies, a non-descript Toronto band predestined for obscurity...
-Charles Frank (Calgary Herald columnist), February 3, 1992.
- Thanks for providing me with my laugh of the morning! Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 13:22, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
- I can't find anything for him, nor for Shock: Social Science Fiction. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 02:40, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Boy band IP
Does this qualify as long-term abuse at this point? Diannaa labeled it such in that IP's previous block. Wouldn't it be helpful to keep an accurate record of this for future reference? - Bossanoven (talk) 06:44, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, by the way, for your reference: User:Bossanoven/Boy band vandal IPs - Bossanoven (talk) 06:45, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
- I don't have any experience labelling users with LTA. I take it you are thinking of submitting a report at WP:LTA to help keep track of the person's edits and blocks...? I would say it qualifies as "long-term" enough. Is it "egregious" enough? I'm not sure... probably. I am happy to defer to Diannaa about that. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 12:32, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi, Paul, this one should be interesting. ;) A notability tag was added to Bernie Cahill recently, which I only just now remembered. When I reviewed my source, I knew that he was an entertainment lawyer who was perhaps only briefly involved in the gaming industry in the 1990s. I looked around on the internet and found that he had probably been involved in a lot of other things since then. I am assuming, of course, that there is not more than one entertainment lawyer named Bernie Cahill - if so, that's embarrassing for me. ;) But I found enough items that seem to connect from one thing to another to assure me that everything I saw is probably about the same person. So, would you mind taking a look to see what else you may find about him? Thanks! BOZ (talk) 03:37, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
- There are a number of "Bernie Cahill"s covered in sources, including a Canadian furrier, and an Irish chairman of Aer Lingus. I'm afraid I can't find anything for "Bernie Cahill" + "Last Unicorn", nor for "Bernie Cahill" + "Dune". Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 18:46, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Anything for "Bernie Cahill" + "lawyer", or even "Bernie Cahill" + "entertainment"? BOZ (talk) 19:09, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Gareth-Michael Skarka has been subjected to a PROD. I think the rationale is incorrect, but I would rather have a search for more sources before removing it. I will also look into finding something on HighBeam tomorrow. BOZ (talk) 17:41, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- I added what I could. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 18:06, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- I found this article. I'll leave it to you to decide what might be useable there. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 01:39, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
You don't know about Angstschluss?
Cheers for giving him the flick mate. Was hanging around his contribs page basically waiting to revert everything and everything he posted. Was wondering if you could check out this user - Pootuz - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Pootuz. His name is similar to Pootrick, and seems to also be a vandal-only account. Both seemed to edit similarly. Seeing as you have deletion rights, I was wondering if there was as way to see if it was the same person. Cheers again. Nath1991 (talk) 03:54, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- I've blocked both; it's certainly the same editor logging into different accounts. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 03:56, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi, Paul. I recently created this article, and maybe I should have kept in Draft space a bit longer, but too late for that I suppose. Do you have any sources you could add to this one? BOZ (talk) 20:17, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
- Hi BOZ. I am doubtful that it adds all that much to the notability, but Fortune wrote a few paragraphs about the incident. The reference is Morris, Betsy (November 24, 2008). "You have victims working for you. You have batterers working for you too.", Fortune 158 (10). I don't know why the page number does not show up in my database. 158 is the volume, and 10 is the issue. Someone posted the entire article here, so you can take a look for yourself. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 01:34, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. What you posted was not an encyclopedia article. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 01:54, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Swagalishes00: Maybe you could try Yahoo Answers? Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 01:59, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I found out recently that John Hill passed away earlier this year. The article is a little bit of a mess and could use some improved sourcing, if you could find any. BOZ (talk) 14:02, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- Hi BOZ. I found just one thing. I'm not sure how best to incorporate it into the article. The citation is Hunerwadel, J P. (Spring 2001). "The Operational Art of War: Century of Warfare", Aerospace Power Journal 15 (1): 118–121. Quoting from the one paragraph that mentions him: "John Hill's Squad Leader (Avalon Hill, 1977) ... helped fuel the great board-war-game boom of the late seventies." Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 02:25, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Hi, Paul. I noticed on the article's talk page that you had previously stated that you had a 2002 source for Eric Polak, but did not have access to the full text in 2012. Can you tell me if that has changed? BOZ (talk) 22:22, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- Hi BOZ. No, I checked again, and still don't have access to the full article. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 02:27, 30 April 2015 (UTC)