User talk:PeeJay2K3/Archive 8

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Internationals from MUFC Youth

Hey mate, finally after long time I found a source for the Internationals from MUFC Youth (thanks to @mrmujac) to place in United Academy article, the issue is that some of the players on the list does not have United under thier youth parameter in wikipedia. and atleast one player (Adnan Ahmed is one) from the wikipedia page that list him as youth is not recognised as one. Hope you alongside me, will redo the articles to include those players, but first want to see what you think and how can we adress the issue. PDF link
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 22:04, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Stop deleting OFFICAL FIXTURES!

The fixtures you are deleting are offical fixtures for the End of year rugby tests. Yes the macthes are non-tests but they are useful to the readers of the article. Wikipedia is ment to give out information to the general public. Deleting the fixtures is not helping the general public. If you were a fan of one of the non-test matches and wanted to look up the results in the future, wouldn't you wont to rely on Wikipedia to have the results when the fixtures has been on the article since september! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jarkson (talkcontribs) 20:46, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

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Association football

Hello PeeJay2K3, why did you revert my edit on Association football? The SoccerProject clearly states the article is an orphan since 2009. Where else should I have added the wikilink? If you are convinced it is spam, you should delete it I guess. Lotje (talk) 14:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of FIFA Club World Cup statistics

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Season Greetings

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Le gach dea-ghui i gcomhair na nollag agus na h-ath bhliana! "With Best Wishes for Christmas and the New Year!" ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 01:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

You are so pedantic and tend speak down to others

This is just the most recent time. May I suggest you stop as it's not becoming and it borders on page ownership? Please, no need to respond on my talk page as I don't care to ruin my Christmas with an argument with you. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:31, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:Tampines rovers.png)

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NPOV concerns for 2007 A.S. Roma–Manchester United F.C. conflict

Hello, I saw you reverted my removal of the POV tag on 2007 A.S. Roma–Manchester United F.C. conflict, saying that the issues remained unaddressed. That's perfectly fine: one of the my goals in removing abandoned tags is to encourage real POV issues to be resolved. To assist in that goal, would you mind briefly restating on the article talk page what the remaining disputed issues are? The last active discussion was 5 years ago, and at that time it appears that some editors were concerned about an anti-United fans slant. At the present time, the article if anything appears to present the United fans in a favorable light (or at least such is my impression as an outside reader with no prior knowledge of the incident) and thus it may be that the issues have been resolved in the intervening 5 years, although the discussion was never closed. Thanks, and happy editing! -- LWG talk 02:07, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

God Football

It was inevitable. He edited against clear consensus, edit warred, and labelled anybody who opposed him (i.e. everybody!) as "vandals" or "trolls"; he even started a RFCU on DUCKISJAMMY. He was clearly not here to be productive or work as part of a community. GiantSnowman 15:35, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Ben Amos

Regarding a source for Ben Amos returning from his Hull loan, it was Amos himself that confirmed via his Twitter account.. Tweet JMHamo (talk) 01:05, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

List of Galatasaray S.K. captains

Please note I have declined your CSD nomination of this list; the title of the article provides context as to the subject. Thanks, Ironholds (talk) 02:06, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Protecting pages

Hey PeeJay, I have a real important question to ask. Where do you go to request for a certain page to be protected in a way that only established users, like you and me for example, can edit that page. Because I'm getting into a bit of an edit war on Grant Kerr's page with some folks who aren't established wikipedia users who are messing with his stats from his time with Atlanta and Fort Lauderdale and making up numbers and stuff. So if it all, what am I supposed to do in order to Grant Kerr's page to be protected, I mean can you give me a quick run through? I've been on Wikipedia for almost six years and there are certain things that I still don't get. – Michael (talk) 08:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

William Smiths

The lack of birthdates makes it tricky. That's the particularly frustrating thing, it was the birthdate I was looking for this morning when I went to the article. For "Buxton" an article at Buxton Smith would make sense, as City was his only pro club. But I'm guessing "Stockport" wasn't known as Stockport when he was playing for United, or Stockport... Smiths are a pain to source at the best of times, but two with the same name making their League debuts in the same match takes it to another level. The current title should definitely be a disambiguation page - there's 20+ William Smiths and close variants in Joyce alone. Stockport Smith is far from ideal, but probably as good as we can do in the circumstances. Some might say William Smith (footballer from Stockport) but that's just the same thing in more verbose terms. Oldelpaso (talk) 22:46, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

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Fryers

Your removal of content added was unnecessary and not explained. Therefore it has been removed. I have discussed the issues with the previous users (Govvy and Rocket) and they now both agree that I was right to add the content. This can be seen by viewing my talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.206.102.148 (talk) 11:37, 24 January 2013 (UTC)


Please can you explain why it 'has no place here'. I have added a new phrase which my be more to your pleasing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.206.102.148 (talk) 00:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

2009-10 NFL Playoffs (Minnesota v. New Orleans)

You have removed changes to this section repeatedly for unknown reasons. The initial description of the game is bias and only the opinion of the writer. For example: insisting that Robert Meacham did not catch the ball but was ruled a catch on the field and upheld. The replay does not sufficiently show a catch but it cannot be determined. The fact remains that the pass was ruled a catch and upheld. It cannot be said that Meacham did not catch the ball, stating that is simply a personal opinion not one shared as fact by all viewers. In addition, further remarks are slanted toward an opinion that the referees were in favor of the New Orleans Saints by consistently ruling in the Saints favor. This appears to be the rants of an angry fan and not writing based on fact. If you have evidence showing that the referees were ruling in the Saints favor then please include a citation to validate these findings. Further stating opinions regarding "poor calls" (Ben Leber's penalty) are also not based on fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hootie318 (talkcontribs) 23:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

January 2013

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 48 hours for your disruption caused by edit warring and violation of the three-revert rule at 2011 Six Nations Championship. During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}} below this notice, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. —Darkwind (talk) 02:48, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

MLS All-Star Team

That's wonderful, but the fact remains the MLS All-Stars are made up of players from American and Canadian clubs. -- Fifty7 (talk) 01:44, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I would love to see you make that argument to TFC, Whitecaps, and Impact fans. -- Fifty7 (talk) 02:11, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Fryers / dailymail

EXCLUSIVE: Fryers feels 'disrespected' by outraged Fergie after United offered him £1,500-a-week deal to stay It says it in the title of the artcle! Sami Mokbel wrote the article, I don't know how much is correct, but that IP is doing straight copy of text and not quoting it's source correctly, I don't see a problem with using some of the information if done in the right way. Govvy (talk) 11:42, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

It's attributed to the person who wrote the artcle, as Sami Mokbel wrote it, In text is should say "Sami Mokbel of the Daily Mail stated that "Fryers feels disrespected" " However I still feel this is a biography of a living person, and it really doesn't need to be read like a newspaper article. As for citation 13, "Tottenham's head of football development, Tim Sherwood, denied this accusation" no where in that citation does it say Sherwood denied this accusation." Shouldn't that bit be removed also? Govvy (talk) 11:55, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
Then if that IP starts adding stuff back, it might be prudent to add notice of vandalism, or there abouts. I don't know if you use Twinkle like I do, it does have things like that. Govvy (talk) 12:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

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Redirects

Why are there two redirects?--Dipralb (talk) 20:04, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

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Capitals in DAB in titles

I notice you move Paddy Kennedy (Association footballer) to Paddy Kennedy (association footballer), should it be Paddy Kennedy (kerry gaelic footballer) Gnevin (talk) 11:34, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks even as I type kerry gaelic footballer it looked wrong but I just wanted to be sure . Gnevin (talk) 11:40, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Grande Inter

Would you help me with this merger?--Dipralb (talk) 11:22, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

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Non-free file File:2010 UEFA Champions League Final logo.jpg

Thank you for uploading File:2010 UEFA Champions League Final logo.jpg. The file is currently tagged as non-free and has been identified as possibly not being in compliance with the non-free content policy. For specific information on the problems with the file and how they can be fixed, please check the message at File:2010 UEFA Champions League Final logo.jpg. For further questions and comments, please use the non-free content review page. Thank you. -- Toshio Yamaguchi 21:05, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

West Indian cricket team in England in 2011

Please explain why you have redirected this again. The West Indian tour took place in the 2011 English season and so the above title is correct. You seem to think it applies to the 2011–12 West Indies season but that is not the case. See this for evidence. Would you please revert your change? Thanks. ----Jack | talk page 11:12, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

If that is correct, then the international definition of a season needs looking at. I was under the impression that September was the start of the winter season, per International cricket in 2011–12. Having looked at ESPNcricinfo and CricketArchive, I can see that you are right, but if we move the West Indies v England series, we will also have to move Pakistan v Zimbabwe, which also occurred in September 2011 and is listed as having taken place in the 2011 season on ESPNcricinfo. The same goes for Kenya's tour of the Netherlands, Canada in Ireland and the entirety of the ICC World Cricket League Division Six. – PeeJay 12:06, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Moving discussion here. This idea of worldwide summer and winter seasons seems to be something thought up by ESPNcricinfo per this list for 2011 and this one for 2011–12. However, it looks as if September and England are in the summer list as the West Indian visit to England is in the 2011 list. The current ICC World Cricket League Championship began in June 2011 and continues till October 2013 so that is multi-season. As you say, it looks as if Pakistan in Zimbabwe, Kenya in Netherlands and Canada in Ireland need to be dated 2011. Thanks. ----Jack | talk page 16:10, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

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Season stats table question

Hi PeeJay, I am going to add stats table to the seasons article and wondered if you could clear to me which two letter Pos (HF, FW, FB) should I add to those -

Centre half, Wing half, Winger, Wing half, Inside forward, Inside left, Inside right, Centre forward, Outside right

I seen in one of the articles which you added stats table a slight diff between one player and another which in a guide Im using have them with same positions so I want to make sure which position to place them. (I have added few days ago stats table to the 1930–31 season)
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 18:55, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

Please start a new RM. I don't know. You're absolutely right; I would support you. We still use FC Internazionale Milano or FC Internazionale everywhere, except for the title. It's illogical. Please!--Dipralb (talk) 15:27, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks.--Dipralb (talk) 16:30, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I added "..3" as required by WP:RM. Good luck. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:31, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

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Hello PeeJay, hope you are well. Just letting you know that I replaced the Football Association of Wales PNG logo you uploaded with a superior vector version. The PNG you uploaded should be speedy deleted in seven days (20 March). I figured it'd be better to write a personal message as templating a regular is bad form, not to mention that we're both from WP:FOOTY. Cheers, and take care. Malpass93! (what I've been up to/drop me a ___) 18:51, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Mats Møller Dæhli

Hi there. I've dePRODed Mats Møller Dæhli, as I believe the subject passes WP:GNG as he is a huge star in Norway, and is in national media every other week. I have improved the article with some of the news-stories I've found in Norwegian media, and was hoping you could improve the article further with the sources that you have better access to then me. :) Cheers, Mentoz86 (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

ITN for 2013 Six Nations Championship

AIRcorn (talk) 02:21, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

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Vince Hayes

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1998 FIFA World Cup Group H

I added the details to the first two matches. I noticed that you removed the big national flags icon of the four teams. Please do not do that. I followed that the general standard to edit the match details and for international matches, wikipedia always has a big national flag icon. ---Sofeshue (talk), 9:43 (UTC-7:00) 2013/03/30. —Preceding undated comment added 16:43, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Since when is it not standard to add big national flag icons? Even in the most recent 2013 Africa Cup of Nations, we still have big national flag icons. Also, I have checked various historical UEFA EURO, AFC Asian Cup, and World Cup competitions, all of them have big national flag icons. So how is it not a standard? Even if this is a super-new policy not to add the icons (which I don't know, since I am relatively new here to make edits), it should only affect future matches, not historical matches. --Of course, you wouldn't systematically remove these icons, right? Also, for 1998 world cup, all other groups have the icons (added long ago, not by me), so, even for the sake of consistency, I should add them to Group H. --Sofeshue (talk)

I need you to give me a source for the new standards. I am new and I don't know where to find the standards for editing football statistics. I just follow the general patterns that I saw. I guess there must be some moderator group and a set of guidelines for this. If they indeed exist, please give me a link.

Besides, if the standard is valid, does it mean that we need to systematically remove big national flag icons from historical competitions? Or we leave them as they are now? --Sofeshue (talk)

Yeah, totally agreed. I also thought the big flag icon was not visually beautiful or helpful. Now I see you are much more veteran-ed than I am, could you please give me a link of detailed guidelines for editing football statistics (or in general football-related)? I plan to cover all previous world cups (including qualifications), and I don't want to go blindly. --Sofeshue (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:03, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

I see you also deleted some flag icons next to the managers. I think it's better to add them since the manager is not necessarily from the country they coach. --Sofeshue (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:14, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

What...? How would a user know that the omission of the flag indicates that the manager is from the same country he coaches? If I see that some coaches are with a flag while others are not, I would naturally think this is a bad edit. Therefore I do think the flagicon for the coach is better. (At least, either all flags or no flags at all, but "some flagged, some not" is extremely bad.) Also I do think a standard, if not strict, manual of style should apply to football statistics. I don't want to enter war with User:Walter Görlitz neither. I am here to make wiki better, not to fight with anyone. If there is no such a standard and there is a risk of edit war, I think I should lay my grand project dominant for a while, until such a standard is set. Sofeshue (talk) 22:45, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

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Alf Farman - first penalty in history?

Hey PeeJay. Thought I'd drop by and mention this out of courtesy.

I've been doing a little work on the season articles and history stuff for City's first years, and while working on the 1891-92 season I hyperlinked Alf Farman as he scored against us, naturally, and checked out his article. I noticed in there that you (I checked the history, it was yourself who added it) claimed that he scored the first penalty in history - in an FA Cup 4th Qual game against Blackpool. I found this a little bit of a weird comment because according to my main source for my current edit campaign - being Paul Toovey's "Manchester City - The Birth of the Blues", which is literally just a book full of the original match reports from the 1880s and 1890s - Farman scored a penalty against us on 10/10/1891, which I'm pretty sure would've been before the FA Cup's 4th qual. I then decided to do a little extra research since that might have been worth mentioning in my article...and the very page Penalty kick claims that the first one was scored by an Airdrieonians player in September of the same year, so even earlier. Either way, I think whatever source it was that you saw to suggest that Farman got the first peno is a little off.

Just thought I should mention that to you. And my word it's been a long ol' time since I last sent anyone a Talk page message... Falastur2 Talk 21:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll try to remember, though I'm going away myself in a week. So what are you up to atm that has led you away from home then? If you don't mind me asking, of course...Falastur2 Talk 21:46, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Rugby Referees

PeeJay, I noticed your recent changes to 2012–13 LV Cup whereby you have changed the referees' displayed allegience from their Union (RFU, WRU, etc) to a country. Hence

became

Is this some sort of standard for RU articles? Hamish59 (talk) 09:09, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

Fair point, PeeJay. But the use of a country implies nationality. Nigel Owens is indeed a Welsh referee, but PJ Doyle is not an English one (Irish but employed full time by the RFU). Steve Walsh (rugby referee) springs to mind (ARFU but a kiwi) and, I think, Andrew Small (employed by the RFU, but also a kiwi for example). Hamish59 (talk) 16:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, PeeJay, but I am not in the least bit convinced. It is my belief that anyone who sees
is going going to think "Steve Walsh is Australian". They are not going to "find out the minutiae". Hamish59 (talk) 08:32, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Puerto Rican vs American nationality....

Hey, I need you to chime in on WT:FOOTY regarding the nationality of both Taylor Graham and Kupono Low. It's pretty much the same debate we had a couple years ago. – Michael (talk) 06:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

New season articles template design

Just a quick message because it's almost 2am and it's a work night >:(

Care to tell me what you think of this? Just something quick I rigged up, I thought it was more illustrative of the actual history of the club - I didn't realise there had been so many name changes until I started reading up on it.

The colours represent the kit colours of the clubs, at least as are best known. St Mark's is the only one for which I can't even speculate, though West Gorton is partial speculation also. Falastur2 Talk 00:55, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. My attachment to putting the seasons in rows by decade is because it's my general opinion that Wikipedia stuff, and particularly infoboxes, should be neat and ordered so that they are easy to find things in. I've seen a number of season infoboxes where the seasons are just mashed all together with no breaklines and it's incredibly hard to pick out an individual year in the midst of it all. I would consider doing 20 seasons to a line, to both keep it neat and narrow the box, but I'm not currently convinced that the smaller res monitors which a lot of people are still using would fit it all and I don't want it to get bunched up and disordered for those with small screens. I'm using a 22" monitor, it's already hard enough for me to tell when I'm using too many columns without making infoboxes virtually unreadable for many.
Glad you appreciate the colour by the by. I quite liked the effect myself. Some may complain about it but - in the politest way - screw them, I've always been a fan of doing what is best and most representative of the truth, and as I'm sure you know, I don't mind trampling all over a Manual of Style or five if the result justifies it.
I won't be rolling this out immediately, for the record. For a start, I now have the information to make all of those red links before the Man City years blue and I intend to do so before I release the new template. At my present rate of about one page updated/created per two days it'll be a good couple of weeks yet - more when you take into account I'll be away next week. I'll also be consulting a few of the City editors I hold in most regard - OldElPaso, PBradbury if he's around (he seems to come and go) and perhaps a couple of others who have been more active than not on season articles thus far, so if you have a sudden change of heart or think of a way I can improve it then please do shout as I'll consider any suggestions. Falastur2 Talk 17:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)


Independent Manchester United Supporters' Association

The information on this page is incorrect and puts the organisation in a potentially difficult situation as it misrepresents IMUSA's position - I have been trying to change this for two days now but you keep changing the information back.

I am the Vice Chair of IMUSA (can confirm at comms@imusa.org) and am seriously unhappy that my organisation is being misrepresented on Wikipedia in an article it didn't create and we seemingly have no way to stop this.

This isn't an editing issue - the information in this is wrong, potentially damaging to the organisation and it needs to be removed

If you are unable to do this can you please advise who I should contact — Preceding unsigned comment added by RiverMonkey (talkcontribs) 20:56, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Good faith

Please remember to assume good faith when dealing with other editors, which you did not do on 2012–13 SD Ponferradina season. Please remember this, even when nominating articles for deletion which may seem an obvious breach of policy.—♦♦ AMBER(ЯʘCK) 21:43, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Message from the Independent Manchester United Supporters' Association

You have actively prevented IMUSA personnel from correcting the article about our organisation. We therefore view you as having assumed ownership of this article and hence responsibility for its contents.
In that context, IMUSA does not consent to hand over control about what is represented in its name to others. The organisation therefore requires that a disclaimer be prominently placed within the article making it plain that it does not emanate from IMUSA and that we do not endorse its contents.
Apart from the opening line there are just two facts that are correct in this article; (i) that the group is independent of the club and (ii) that the organisation was formed at a meeting at the Gorse Hill Hotel in Stretford in April 1995. The rest is either supposition or incorrect.
You are therefore requested to remove the incorrect or unsubstantiated information as soon as possible. If you do not we will have no choice but to take this matter further.
You are invited to contact IMUSA (comms@imusa.org) to check the facts of any new version of the article you may wish to produce but IMUSA will not contribute to this process for the reasons given above. IMUSA (talk) 17:03, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
(talk page stalker) What rubbish. This is Wikipedia. No-one assumes ownership of any article (see WP:OWN). You have no right to "not consent" to anything here. You have no right to "require a disclaimer". By all means make suggestions on what you think needs to be improved, but also read WP:COI. Probably a good idea that "IMUSA" does not contribute to this process until "IMUSA" understands how Wikipedia works. When making threats to "take this matter further", please see also WP:LEGAL. Also, please stop creating multiple accounts to edit Wikipedia on behalf of your "organisation". Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:32, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
This is not a multiple account. Thanks for the advice and for the opportunity to point out any changes we would like to see.IMUSA (talk) 19:37, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
I already made the same offer to User:RiverMonkey, and as I pointed out to him, no one at IMUSA has been denied the opportunity to make contributions; what has been denied is the obvious use of copyrighted material (albeit from your own website, but still copyrighted) and the right to delete content that has been deemed by other editors to be reflective of the source material. As The Rambling Man has said, feel free to inform us of the changes you would like made (and of reliable sources that we can use to back up those changes) so that you are not in contravention of the spirit of WP:COI. Cheers. – PeeJay 19:41, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
One of us will be in touch in the next few days - we just want an article that accurately reflects our history and what we do now RiverMonkey (talk) 19:52, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
That would be good, but whoever you are all, please don't "threaten" Wikipedia with " we will have no choice but to take this matter further." etc. It will simply result in accounts being blocked. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

No sense in edit warring

Two reverts on 2012–13 UEFA Champions League already. Please take to the talk page. I've started a section there. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:37, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

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Standard names for HJK Helsinki and Deportivo La Coruña

Hi, PeeJay. I see you reverted my changes on Europa League about standarizing names for clubs. I don't mind whether HJK or HJK Helsinki eventually stands, but don't you think it should be used the same name at all places? Thanks a lot. 89.7.243.236 (talk) 18:21, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

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Alf Farman - redux (and a couple of other bits)

Hey PeeJay. Enjoying being back at Uni? I was just wondering if you'd had a chance to check your refs on Alf Farman. I know I said I'd remind you a few weeks back, but...yeah, well I forgot.

Thanks for the critique on my seasons template upgrade (it's here if you wanted to revisit it for the purposes of replying or whatever). I consulted OldElPaso as I said I would and he suggested wiping everything before Ardwick (i.e. canning the idea of writing those articles too) as being incomplete knowledge and not entirely worth writing articles about anyway. I was initially resistant but I kind of see his point, but just thought I'd check in with yourself again and see you thoughts on the matter. It's true that no complete records exist for most of those early seasons - it's hard to be sure that there weren't extra games played that there's simply no record of any more, and they were all friendlies so - while, as a bit of an ultra-inclusionist, I naturally want to write about them, it's hard to argue that there's not an awful lot of encyclopaedic justification for it. If I do decide to not write them, which I guess will probably happen, I could de-link those years and keep them there so that the continuity remains (I might remove the line for Belle Vue Rangers as there's not a lot of explanation why that line is there without a season article to refer to). But others might well argue that I should just remove everything above Ardwick if there's not going to be any links there. I don't know. Any thoughts?

Lastly, don't suppose you wanted to do a very quick critique of this page here which I have written and am thinking of releasing as an actual article soon. Criticise or praise as much or little as you want, but the real bits I'm interested in are 1) whether you think it's overall a good article 2) whether anything needs to be added that hasn't been said 3) whether you can think of a better title, because I'm unconvinced by its current one yet can't think of an alternative. I intend to add some in-line references to Gary James and Paul Toovey (the two referenced authors) to give more and fairer credit to them for their work, but otherwise it's pretty much done. OEP has also looked at it and given it a general thumbs-up, but I'd appreciate your comments as well. Particularly so as I'm considering submitting it as a candidate for Did You Know? and thus if that happened it would have to undergo (the mildest of) peer review. I'm not trying to write a masterpiece, but I'd like to release a polished piece.

Anyway, thanks for your time as always. No need to rush to reply, but I'd appreciate any ideas you can give me, even if it's just a general "yeah, looks OK" or "I think that bit needs work". Falastur2 Talk 20:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

David Moyes' appointment

As a fellow Manchester United fan, I am sure that you know David Moyes' appointment has been confirmed. However, there are people that still says it is speculation in the 2013-14 Premier League article. Perhaps you can help me out. 81.21.141.81 (talk) 18:56, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

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I am currently thinking about manually undoing your revert of my Welsh Premier League Clubs stuff

In case you would like to comment, I am currently thinking about manually undoing your revert of my Welsh Premier League Clubs stuff, for reasons explained here Tlhslobus (talk) 14:58, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

2013 Football League Cup Final

I was not aware that there was an edit-war ongoing at 2013 Football League Cup Final, I accidently opened the article and removed what I thought was wrong categorization, and noticed the edit-war about the flags first after I reverted your revert of my edit. But looking at the history of the article, you've in the last 8 days reverted an IP once, KevinMcE twice, Owain twice in addition to the revert of my edit. You've also had a long discussion about the flags with Sports and politics in late February, without reaching a consensus, and when Owain reverted you yesterday he wrote a message on the talk-page which you either didn't noticed (if you don't have the article on your watchlist) or ignored (if you do have the article on your watchlist). Isn't it time to start discussing things, instead of simply reverting other editors? You are doing a great job on Wikipedia, but if you continue this behaviour it might get you blocked. Mentoz86 (talk) 13:00, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

John Psaras

Hi there, please try and remember to notify article creators about PRODs etc. Thanks, GiantSnowman 16:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

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2012-13 Bradford City season

Just a couple of questions about your clean up:

  • Why did you delete the nationality of the top scorer?
  • Why did you change all the scores from bold?
  • Why change the names of the rounds?

Thanks in advance, Migitgem2009 (talk) 22:14, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

2012–13 Premier League

Hi. Please do not remove the assists table from the article as it is required as part of the season statistics. Take a look at articles of previous seasons and you'll see what I'm talking about. Davykamanzitalk · contribs 22:43, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

You have no arguments

Your entire argument on the zinedine zidane page hinges on his nationality. 176.10.208.167 (talk) 09:44, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

No, for the love of god. That's civic identity. It's not ethnic, cultural or linguistic, which have more bearing than naionality. Being algerian ethnically is different from being algerian on a passport. How hard is that to understand? The criteria for identity isn't only nationality. 176.10.208.167 (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

2013–14 Northampton Town F.C. season

Forgive me if this is wrong place to contact you, but I find it disgusting you can keep deleting information with no good reason. Several other clubs have the round-by-round information. Arsenal, Cardiff, Chelsea, Hull, Liverpool, Barnsley, Bournemouth, Swindon and Fleetwood to name but a few. If it's just Northampton's you insist on removing, I can only put in down to discrimination. Either delete them all or please restore Northampton's.

Thebof (talk) 15:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I know for a fact you've been on some of these other pages as you've edited the pages, so I'm still perplexed as to why you still feel the need to only remove Northampton's. And also why they're bad in the first place. Thousands of these tables exist on football season pages.

But if you insist they're bad, I'll help you in your quest and start removing all others.

Thebof (talk) 13:33, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:FOOTBALL

I agree, and would say we need to come up with new, detailed notability/MOS pages to provide guidance on all issues related to football. GiantSnowman 09:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

We need to post at FOOTY and see if there is interest in helping us. GiantSnowman 11:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

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B&H Edits

Hi PeeJay, I saw your removal on the Bosnia page. Not saying I disagree with it at all, I myself have removed a fair bit of stat overkill on that page and it's my opinion that the editor who reverted borders on an ownership issue regarding this article, but I wonder whether for a nation so young whether it can really be termed recentist? Also if it is indeed a record streak, could it not stay as a collapsed table? Fenix down (talk) 13:55, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

2013 mid-year rugby test series recent edits

With regards to your recent edit on the 2013 mid-year rugby test series article. I fully understand why flags and Half time scores has been taken out. However, touch judges can remain hidden until the line-ups for each match has been named other wise, you end with some with touch judges and some without and it look scrappy. This is the same for the Notes: on some of the matches, Just wait until the squad and or after the score is added. Remember you told not to include the [[|]] on squads that has not been announced as it looks scrappy. Further more, a flag can be used for man of the match as it looks a bit stupid with (Country name). Rugby.change (talk) 16:46, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The flags for MOTM just makes it look a bit neater. It's also of the same aspect of including flags by coaches. This conversation was taken during the 2013 6 Nations about flag usage, and we came to an agreement about flags on coaches and MOTM. Flags for referees was the only compromise.Rugby.change (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I can't remember if you were part of that particular discussion, however everyone was in an agreement about flag icon for man of the match, as we stated that is was of the same aspect of flag icons by head coach. Rugby.change (talk) 17:06, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Leave it the is was. (Country name) is fine. Besides, not every match is going to have the man of the match noted, so I'll compromise for the man of the match and I settle for Joe Launchbury (England). Rugby.change (talk) 17:14, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Just to let you know, I'll go through past mid year tests and end of year test cleaning them with the flags added and if any the Man of the match situation. Rugby.change (talk) 17:18, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

May 2013

Stop icon

Your recent editing history at All matches Bosnian national football team shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in you being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. AzaToth 21:56, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest you to take this up at WP:AN3. AzaToth 21:58, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Early grounds of Manchester City F.C. - DYK nomination

Hey PeeJay. I made some tweaks to this article a few days back, including rewriting the first sentence as you suggested, and made the article live. I also self-nominated for Did You Know, but I seem to have gained little to no interest, which is a little disappointing to me considering that the article was 18.5k bytes when released, which is far and beyond what most DYK articles look like after only a few days active. If you have the time and the will, I don't suppose you'd be willing to head over to the nomination and just very briefly submit a review, as I'm a little concerned that in a couple of days the nomination is going to time out and it'll cease to be eligible for DYK. If that does happen then so be it, but if I can get this pushed through I'd like to do so - I just can't self-review having already self-nominated.

Anyway, entirely up to you, I don't want to oblige you. But if you felt like it, it'd be very much appreciated. Falastur2 Talk 23:20, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Kroos

OK, perhaps that reaction was uncalled for, but I think with uncontroversial statements like the one about Kroos, it's best to leave them in and ad the {{cn}} tag, or find a reference yourself if you can be bothered. Prior to his injury, Kroos had been in the first-team with Robben or Ribery missing out - this might have changed, but there's no doubt he'd have been in the 18 if fit. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 07:44, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:Footy

Greetings, Welshman. I just read your comment at TfD about the failure of WP:FOOTBALL to do a better job of regulating content and formatting of association football/soccer player bios and other articles. I'm an American, and not a big football/soccer editor, but I track several player biographies (including Abby Wambach's) because of their association with my alma mater, the University of Florida. The amount of fancruft that has been added in the past year is really quite remarkable, but that's typical of Wikipedia sports articles, which attract fans who are more eager than knowledgeable. I have two suggestions: (1) first, contact administrator GiantSnowman, and sound him out. He's a fellow Brit (a Yorkshire lad, I believe), a smart guy, and a big football fan. He's familiar with these issues. (2) Find other like-minded football editors, and organize. The way to tackle these formatting, stats and other content problems is to pick them off one at a time in RfCs on the WikiProject talk page. Sure, it's messy, and you may not always like the outcome, but we have used similar processes on the American college football and basketball WikiProjects to enforce a large measure of uniformity over time. Let me know; I'm happy to participate, assuming you'll accept an ignorant American who believes football is played with a helmet. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:59, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Count me in too, esp with the bios. Some variety and freedom is good but it can feel messy too. Cjwilky (talk) 21:37, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:2012–13 UEFA Champions League group H standings

Ambox warning pn.svgTemplate:2012–13 UEFA Champions League group H standings has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Kingjeff (talk) 01:53, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the input

Hey Peejay, I have made the corrections to Template:Did you know nominations/Matt Brown (American football), thanks for your help.«Marylandstater» «reply» 01:05, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
NFL link has been inserted.«Marylandstater» «reply» 02:54, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Results by round

Hi, I am asking you as you were mentioned in this edit summary as indicating that the Results by round summaries in football season articles were no longer approved. What is the reasoning and has there been any discussion for this as I find them very useful to find out the progression of the team through-out the season. Keith D (talk) 11:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Denis Law

He played in the 1973 FA Charity Shield, and made two appearances in the Texaco Cup in August 1974. While the Texaco Cup wasn't exactly distinguished, it was a senior first team match as far as the FA / AFS etc. are concerned. Weird competition. Starts out as an Intertoto Cup style thing for the Home Nations, then becomes the Anglo-Scottish Cup then Football League Group Cup and is now the Football League Trophy. The significance for Law is while everyone thinks he retired straight after the derby, he only decided to retire after the following season was underway, having been left out of the team for the first couple of league games. A less romantic story, I guess. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:03, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

John Mitchell (footballer born 1800s)

Hi PeeJay2K3, have you got a reference for the 50 games he played for Newton Heath? Just be good to include it in the body of the article, as well as anything else you have on him esp dob and where he went to after Newton Heath. Cheers :) Cjwilky (talk) 23:16, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for those details, excellent :) My info was just from the Rovers booked cited and the web. Will add all that in. Cjwilky (talk) 23:28, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
That'll be interesting for the Donny historians I know. I'll let you know when I've added all that, then lets go for the joint nomination :) Cjwilky (talk) 23:42, 30 May 2013 (UTC)
Distractions by sorting out stuff on BWFC articles and more searching - anyway, all done, see what you think. Assuming he'd have been a minimum of 18 when he started for Doncaster, I'm guessing he'd have been 30 at the youngest when he'd got to 1891, so its likely he'd have gone from Newton Heath to minor club football. A quick search in Doncaster for births between 1850 and 1865 brought up one John Mitchell born 2nd quarter of 1861, which puts him at the same age as the man who formed the team which was reported to be a group of "young men" - apart from one other player known to be older. If thats the case (probably is), he maybe died age 69 in South Manchester or 77 in Doncaster - my money would be on the latter. Anyway, thats just a little speculative!
If you are familiar with the submission process, I hand that over to you, though I can do it if you prefer. Cjwilky (talk) 01:30, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Just one more detail I'm checking on - whether he played for Bolton on that very first saturday of the Football League. It would be a fairly unique thing for him to be playing in Doncaster Rovers first ever game AND in first weekend of the Football League. It seems he played for them in a match just before that against Newton Heath, so its likely. I'm asking around Bolton stattos to see if they can help. I know there is a book by Tony Brown (I think!) where all the line-ups are listed, though I've no access to that at the minute, maybe you know someone who has? Cjwilky (talk) 15:00, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
Yep, the red11.org site gives October as the transfer date, whereas the mufcinfo.com site gives August (clearly untrue). I contacted the owner of the red11.org site to see if he has any further info re the exact date. Cjwilky (talk) 16:39, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Thats 1732 characters in the text including the honours section. I found this which has the Bolton lineup v Everton, no Mitchell, so he definitely played at least by the second game... just can't find info on Derby, Burnley and Preston. Still waiting on a reply from the Bolton stattos, and waiting for my reg to be approved with their forum. So we could wait a bit for that or jsut go with what there is... think its 5 days from yesterday we have? May be worth casting your eye over the article to see if there's anything thats not good. I was wondering about putting death and birth as "unknown" in the info box as I've seen this occasionally elsewhere. Cjwilky (talk) 23:19, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Excellent edits :)
The first match against the Deaf and Dumb school was a team Albert Jenkins got together for a one off game, and was played in the south of Doncaster (near where Belle Vue the old ground was) and the team that Albert Jenkins got together were mainly based more centrally, near to the railway works (The Plant) where most if not all of them worked - hence Mitchell being offered the job at the LYR works (though it seems from the census he was a "joiner" and I've not seen solid evidence that he worked at The Plant). On the 25 minute walk back, they stopped for a breather and discussed the idea of future games together and chose the name Doncaster Rovers at that point (this is well documented - maybe I should reference it). So, given that they were likely to have left to walk the 1.3 miles back to the centre of town pretty much straight after the game (reports back this up), it was just a mater of a couple of hours after the start of the game against the Deaf and Dumb School. Cjwilky (talk) 05:06, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorted. Though worth checking as I did it on my phone. So you found something about him playing in that Bolton v derby game - would love to have the quote if poss sometime. Cjwilky (talk) 11:39, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm inexperienced in this "hook" lark, but I'd say the most interesting feature is that he had two firsts -
...that footballer John Mitchell had a unique double first by both playing in Doncaster Rovers first ever match in 1879 and playing in the first day of the Football League for a different club in 1888. Or more catchy to say "being one of the 11 original Doncaster Rovers players"?
I use the word "unigue" as it may be that he is the only player to both play in a clubs first ever match and play for another club on the first day of the Football League - though thats one heck of a biggy to prove/research. "Unusual" may be the better word to use?
I don't think the 4 Manchester cups is that unique/unusual.
Both of these first appear in the lead of the article. Cjwilky (talk) 22:26, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm easy, but I think that sounds good :) Cjwilky (talk) 23:15, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
And, please, you must tell me how you got to him playing in the first day of the league. Result! Cjwilky (talk) 11:46, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
That's enough for me too, but will continue to explore the Bolton stattos for specific confirmation, it must be somewhere, and thanks for the quote. Just added several bits to the article that seem relevant, mainly in giving context, feel free to disagree :) Cjwilky (talk) 12:29, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Just had a reply from a Bolton statto confirming he played in the first two games, just asked for a reference. Cjwilky (talk) 12:35, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Bolton ref added, plus the specific info. Also tweaked a few other bits including reparagraphing as per club move. It works as is for me, though wonder if its worth adding in club headings/sections, or is that too fussy, the article too short to need that? Cjwilky (talk) 14:53, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Someone has found a census record of a John Mitchell in Newton in 1891 with occupation as footballer - so that will give us an approx age and should maybe tie in with other info eg birthplace, death info. Looking good :) Cjwilky (talk) 19:16, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Hey, well done nominating this in the DYK :) Not heard from the person re his census ref in Manchester yet... will have a look myself again. Cjwilky (talk) 15:50, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Kevin Strootman

I've reverted your edit, you actually restored a heap of incorrect or unreferenced information, dead links, POV etc. It may be much shorter now but it's also much better quality, easier to expand this way I feel. I've been trying to find sources to expand the article but the transfer rumours are swamping Google. GiantSnowman 08:50, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Is Old Trafford in Stretford?

Thank you for your recent edits. The article Old Trafford, Greater Manchester starts "Old Trafford is an area of Stretford", with a source which I cannot check. Is that wrong? Thanks. --Mhockey (talk) 18:47, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Denis Law

Hey PeeJay. I'm sorry, but somehow I completely missed your last message. I honestly have no idea how, private messages are usually the very first thing I notice on a day. Did you ever manage to work out where those last three games came from? If you didn't, I'll look into it, but no point treading over old ground. For the record, it won't be the Watney Cup - City never played in that. I can tell you that much off the top of my head. Falastur2 Talk 18:43, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I've just noticed OEP's message above. I guess that's case settled? Falastur2 Talk 18:46, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
What exactly do you count as "official"? Do you count the Community Shield, for example? I'd say the Texaco Cup is nowhere near official, though worth recording. Certainly it shouldn't be recorded before a Community Shield appearance. It had no UEFA recognition and was by invitation rather than league placement. It was convenient for the leagues involved, but not directly affiliated to them. I guess whether or not you include it is down to whether you seek to list what UEFA and the FA consider to be a competitive fixture, or what might be called a competition (as opposed to a friendly) by the clubs and the fans. As I say, I favour including this stuff, but it depends on your standards. Falastur2 Talk 19:31, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Tinpot as it was, the Texaco Cup was an FA-sanctioned competition, which I'm led to believe is the inclusion criteria of the AFS, though not all stattos use those criteria. From the City side its always been regarded as part of official club records. Its included in the Ray Goble/ Andrew Ward stats book (1987 and 1993), the various "Manchester City FC Official Handbook" volumes from the 80s and 90s, and the 2006 Gary James book. Might be worth pinging some editors with stats volumes for other clubs that played in the competition, see if there's a trend within the RS or if it varies widely. I see Birmingham and Southampton also played in it, so maybe this new-fangled notification thing will work if I link in User:Struway2 and User:Daemonic Kangaroo. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:24, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I see my name mentioned here! The Southampton statisticians include the club's one season in the Texaco Cup as a first-team tournament and in player statistics. On the other hand, they exclude the Tennent Caledonian Cup despite winning it in 1976 (somewhat overshadowed by winning the FA Cup a few months earlier). I hope this helps. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 21:12, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
You called? The Birmingham stattos also include it as a first-team competition and in player stats. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:04, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I wouldn't name the Texaco Cup as necessarily short. The Texaco Cup was just the sponsorship name of the Anglo-Scottish Cup, for so long as it had sponsorship. That cup lasted eleven seasons, which I would consider fairly decent. I would say there have been far more important competitions that didn't last as long. As OEP says above, I believe that City have a tendency to include all these competitions, so that's probably reason enough to include it here. Falastur2 Talk 21:29, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

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Great work on all the cricket articles. You've made more improvements than Mitchell Johnson has bowled wides...! Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 19:57, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Lions 2013, image

I would appreciate if you could you create the line-ups image for the Western Force v Lions match, and out of curiosity, how do you make the image anyway? Rugby.change (talk) 14:14, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Is it worth including the (c) symbol on the squad images to denote the captain, should the image be used elsewhere. Rugby.change (talk) 17:55, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

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DYK for John Mitchell (footballer born 1800s)

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:03, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

2013 mid-year rugby test series

User:Hippo43 has nominated 2013 mid-year rugby test series for deletion. As someone who has contributed to this article, I thought you may be interested in the discusssion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2013 mid-year rugby test series. Hamish59 (talk) 15:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

List of club competition winners

We started a discussion for this list over here. Your input would be appreciated. --MicroX (talk) 22:53, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

User:2008jordancfc

I'm INVOLVED unfortunately as I was previously at odds with him about them, maybe report him to AIV for breaking 3RR? Or try another FOOTY admin? GiantSnowman 16:27, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

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thanks for work on rugby articles, particularly Lions Tom B (talk) 11:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 23

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1993 Scotland rugby union tour of South Pacific

On the Rothmans 1994-95, talk of " Scotland to Fiji, Tonga and Western Samoa". I think that is a too much long definition, and probably was not the offial match

The same book use a different "rule", when talk of a a tour of "New Zeland to Britain" and not of "New Zealand to England and Scotland".

In any case we can discuss how to call this Tour if "...tO Pacific Islands" or "...to South Seas" or "down under", but "I think that Scotland rugby union tour of Fiji, Tonga and Western Samoa" could be too much longer... bye --Carcamagnu (talk) 22:39, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

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HONOURS

Hi there PJ, AL "here",

i am getting sincerely and utterly fed up with this lack of consensus regarding the players' accolades. Not just with you the "beef" mate, if it was that way we'd be in the clear, but a lot of users say one thing, a lot of users say another...To add insult to injury, 99,999999% of the users that remove the runner-up honours do it without one word of explanation.

I am going to leave a report with two admins, User:GiantSnowman and User:Mattythewhite, looking for precise and to-the-point answers, let's see if i get them. Drop in a line in one of them (or both) if you please.

Attentively, happy week --AL (talk) 20:36, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

  • I tried, sorry to bother you (don't worry i won't re-revert you out of respect, even though IT IS actually an honour) --AL (talk) 23:52, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
(update)Mr. Snowman's words not mine, in my talkpage: "If a reliable source, such as The Independent, confirms that a player won a runner-up honour, then of course we need to include that in the article". REF#17 in Gaizka Mendieta's article speaks of exactly that, how he won the accolade for best MF in the UEFA Champions League after finishing RUNNER-UP with his club Valencia against R. Madrid. I imagine that if people think he deserved a medal in 1999-2000, hell, he deserved a medal in 2000-01 too (consistent those UEFA guys hey?), when he finished RUNNER-UP to FC Bayern Munich (and he played in the final again; and REF#3 from the BBC sources that by the way). I have, per Snowman's "green light", reinstated the honours again, you remove it again you two sort it out.

Attentively (don't know what i've done to merit this treatment of silence, but you would know) --AL (talk) 16:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Busted my wikiderriere looking for what you "extra" required (U21 honours), if this does not solve it... --AL (talk) 19:01, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry for my hastiness (again), but everytime i get no reply and see people are logged in for a fair ammount of time i get extremely "upset". Please leave Mendieta's article stand as it is now seeing as you don't seem to totally disagree with this approach, until further compromise is reached. Snowman has agreed with me, MattyWhite has not re-replied, i did not start a(nother) discussion because i know 99,99999999% of the folks would say "talk to the hand".

Keep it up, all the best --AL (talk) 21:56, 2 July 2013 (UTC)